♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Dominique Calhoun, president of the National Bar Association, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

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♪♪ ♪♪ >> Attorney Dominique Calhoun, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Well, thank you, Dr. Chavis.

It's my pleasure to be with you.

It is such a pleasure to have this discussion with you today.

>> Well, thank you.

You know, the National Bar Association has such an incredible history, evolution.

You're the 81st president of the National Bar Association?

>> 81st president in its 99th year and the third youngest to ever do it.

>> And then you wind up at one of the nation's leading, law schools, particularly for African-Americans.

>> Yeah.

>> The Thurgood Marshall law school at Texas Southern.

>> Yes.

>> So, look, let's talk about the National Bar Association.

>> Yeah.

>> Approximately how many lawyers are members of the National Bar?

>> So, we represent the interests of all 67,000 lawyers in this country.

>> 67,000?

>> 67,000 African-American lawyers.

That's an estimate, give or take, that have successfully passed the bar within this country, whether through whatever state it is and whatever jurisdiction.

The National Bar Association was founded in 1924, you have to remember, at the time when Jim Crow was rampant, a time when the American Bar Association said unequivocally and without doubt Black lawyers cannot be members of the ABA, at the same time where state jurisdictions were saying Black lawyers cannot participate in activities before the bench, where Black lawyers cannot be judges on the bench.

You have to be reminded and remember that there was a time where Black people couldn't even be witnesses in trials.

There are things that we have significantly overcame because of the strides of the National Bar Association training lawyers to ensure that we're combating the issues of segregation, the issues of racism, the issues that continue to plague our communities today.

That is the mission of the National Bar Association.

>> Well, I'm so glad that you mentioned the progress that Black America has made on the legal front, on the civil rights front.

You know, the Supreme Court is eroding the Voting Rights Act.

The Supreme Court is eroding affirmative action.

>> Yeah.

>> Diversity, equity, and inclusion has almost become a bad word.

Someone said it's the new N-word.

But how do you see, from your informed position as the president of the National Bar Association -- how is the pendulum swinging?

>> The pendulum is not swinging in our direction.

Now, Dr. King always said that the arc of justice bends correctly.

And it's our obligation to bend it.

>> Yes.

>> We have to put in the work.

Let's talk about this diversity, equity, and inclusion and the issues that are plaguing America today.

I constantly say that there's only two fights in America that have always occurred since 1776.

It's either at the ballot box or in the courtroom.

Those are where the fights exist.

And in each of those fights, you need a lawyer at your side.

You need lawyers to protect your right to vote.

The ballot box is where a lot of these changes are made.

And it's not just about Black people.

It's about people that understand the plight of Black people, people that have compassion for where Black people have come from, people who understand civil rights and the dire need to continue in those efforts.

If you can put those people in office, then you don't have the struggles that we're currently going through.

The lawyers have to be brave enough.

They have to be knowledgeable enough.

They have to be consistent in the battle against all of these efforts to take away what our ancestors fought for, what you fought for, what people before me, before I was even born, made sure that they were doing, sit-ins.

They were fighting against these injustices.

And shame on us if we don't go back and look at our own history and ensure that we tell future generations about that similar history of what has happened to our people.

That is our obligation.

It's not for anybody else to tell that story.

We have to keep it alive.

We have to make sure that future children know what happened in this country, and that is the only way that we can continue the protections that black people have obtained since the early 1700s, 1800s.

>> We learn from our history, but you got to know the history in order to learn from it.

>> Yeah.

>> You mentioned the importance of courage.

How do you find that courage to speak truth to power?

>> At the beginning of my administration, one of the things I chose to do -- The National Bar Association has three conferences annually, one in the fall, one in the spring, and then the annual convention.

The president gets to choose the fall and the spring conference.

My fall conference was in Florida, to much consternation and chagrin of the membership, who had a lot of conversations about it.

"Why are we going to Florida?

Florida doesn't want us there."

And I said to them, "It takes a little courage."

You have to remember that our people live there.

There are people who are fighting against these atrocities that are occurring by certain individuals in that community.

You can't leave them behind.

And more important than not, you have to go there and make sure that you continue the education, you continue the fight.

Imagine Thurgood Marshall, in his crusade at the time, said, "I'm not gonna go to Texas," or Wiley Branton say, "I'm not gonna fight the fight in Arkansas."

What would that have done to our people?

You have to have the courage.

You have to remember that our people have been fighting for these issues since we emerged in this country, since we were dragged here.

And we have to continue to fight them.

And if not us, if not the lawyers, if not the National Bar Association, to have the courage to say, "I will go to that state and I will make sure that the representations of our people are known and we will make sure that we educate our people," then who else?

>> You know, a lot of our communities, not only in Texas, but across the country, are still mired down in poverty.

What do you see as opportunities for courageous Black lawyers to help lift our people up out of poverty?

>> We have to remember that education is key.

Growing up in the town that I grew up in, not many people went off to college.

In fact, many of my peers ended up in the criminal justice system or they ended up working for manufacturing companies.

And that's pretty much what happened where I grew up.

To go and get a degree, to go and further your education -- And I'm not just talking about college.

You can go to trade school.

As I told you, my father is an electrician, made, you know, good money for himself.

There are opportunities there for you to pull yourself out.

Now, here's what the National Bar Association is doing alongside that.

Our Economic Empowerment Institute focuses on three different areas -- one, personal and consumer debt, two, entrepreneurship, three, end-of-life decisions.

So, on the personal consumer debt, we travel this country and we teach college students and other individuals those concepts that I mentioned.

What happens if you lose on a contract?

What happens with your credit score?

Make sure that they understand FICO.

What is TransUnion?

What is Experian?

What happens to you if someone files a report on your credit?

Because if I can teach you how those things operate, then I can make sure that you don't have that financial burden to where you no longer have access to capital.

Now you want to be an entrepreneur.

How do we shield you in the ways that all Americans should know?

Don't start a company as a general partnership.

Make sure you create some form of shield between you and the company and make sure that you understand the basis of contracts.

Now, end-of-life decisions.

We have a program and a partnership even with NAREB, the National American Real Estate Brokers of America, where we talk about what to do with Big Mama's house, to make sure that our people no longer die intestate.

>> Make sure you have a will.

>> There you go.

>> Because you know what happens with our property.

>> Yeah.

>> We lose a lot in our communities 'cause end-of-life decisions are not really part of our tradition.

>> Yes, and because it's not part of our tradition, that is why we have to change the narrative.

I've said so many times all of these things that are embedded in the Economic Empowerment Institute of the National Bar Association were my personal stories, the personal consumer debt, what happens when you're doing that, the entrepreneurship, end-of-life.

My grandmother unfortunately passed away 2018.

My grandmother had seven children.

Now, they all get along today, but we live in Texas, so property passes what you call per stirpes, which means it passes within the lineage.

If you die without a will, then each one of those seven children now own her house.

Now, what happens if my mother does the same?

She passes away intestate.

That means that my older brother and my younger sister -- we now all have a vested interest.

That 1/7 -- now I have 1/3 of 1/7 of my grandmother's house to make a decision.

I am technically an owner of that property.

What happens if we all don't get along?

Then you begin to force the sale within that community.

>> Probate court.

>> And now you begin to lose -- >> Some probate courts take 30%.

>> Exactly.

And now you begin to lose the Black community.

You begin to lose the wealth that was created in that community.

And that's how these individuals come in, the "investors."

They start buying up that property.

It jacks up the tax base for the others that are living there.

And now they can't afford it, so then they move out.

And that's how these -- that's how our communities change over time, and that's how we lose the history and the belief that was in those communities.

>> Can you talk about the importance of your experience at the Thurgood Marshall law school?

>> It was transformative.

Throughout my time as a student, I was appointed by the governor to sit on the Board of Regents for Texas Southern University.

I served as the highest-ranking student at the university.

>> So, as a student, you're on the board of the university.

>> I was, and at the same time, I was president of the Student Bar Association.

But within that, it was our professors at the law school who made sure that these concepts of voting rights, the concepts of civil rights, and the intersectionality of the law were never forgotten.

Criminal law can be administered without putting a lens on what people look like or the backgrounds where people come from.

You can draft a contract in ways that are discriminatory against people.

You have to remember where we come from.

And to me, the idea that DEI or any of these issues are bad or, you know, the new N-word or bad four-letter words, is atrocious to me.

The fact that there are lawyers that are out there saying that DEI is racist or anti-racist and, as a result, is against the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution is ridiculous.

Remember that the only reason we have the 14th amendment, the 13th amendment, the Equal Protection clause, is because of what white people did to Black people to begin with.

It's the only reason it exists.

And if you go back and read the history of the president vetoing the bill and then Congress having to override him, that's how you get equal protection.

The fact that they even put race as a part of it is consistent with the belief that you have to ensure that race stays at the forefront to protect people.

If you dismantle these programs and if you say that these programs are inherently racist or even racist on their face or create a de jure, you know, racism, you are not living to the history that the ancestors foresaw.

It's important that we don't just look at things in a blind vacuum.

You have to go back and review it from the context of what history taught us.

And that's my biggest fear, is when you start looking at these programs, you start looking at banning books, you start looking at the destruction of our literature and our history -- This is America.

What are you so concerned about teaching people somebody else's history?

It's all our history.

>> You talked about the importance of each generation not only receiving the baton, but understanding what you do with the baton of history once you receive it.

Do you see another generation of young, courageous lawyers following in your footsteps?

>> There has to be.

We have to create a new group of warriors.

Remember that our ancestors were young.

Our ancestors saw the injustices, and they fought them.

This is -- I don't want to make light of it.

It's not meant to be an old man's game.

This is meant to be those who are courageous, those who see the injustices, those who know what's happening on the forefront fighting, fighting the battle, taking the wisdom for those who came before us, making sure that you have one ear listening to them, the other ear listening to the people, and making sure that you understand what's at stake and also understand how you can push the ball forward.

For a group of us, for me and my friends, we're attempting to do that every day.

We know that we only have the baton for a season.

But in order for us to be effective with it, we need the wisdom, we need the lived experiences, the know how, and the knowledge from our ancestors, but we also need the courage of people to say, "Enough is enough," the courage of people to say, "You will not do this to us."

But one of the biggest challenges we have is that we all have to get in the space and we all have to talk about the legacy of us.

We have to make sure that nobody ever forgets, nobody does not know this history because, ultimately, that is what others are trying to do.

If I can keep you from knowing your history, then you'll never know how to fight the battle.

>> What would you say are the two top priorities for the National Bar Association today?

>> We are in our 99th year.

Next year is our centennial.

This is an opportunity for us not only, number one, to reflect on our past, but, number two, prepare us for the future.

So, in that, our number-one priority is to make sure that we're working and advocating to put more people, as I said before, that, understand our laws, that are great jurists and able to serve, and put more Black people on the federal bench.

If I can put people that understand our plight and concern on the federal bench, then as these challenges to the Constitution are coming through, then we have people to fight them.

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson is doing an amazing job at the Supreme Court.

You can hear from her thought-provoking questions, the way she writes an opinion, and how she looks at things.

It's not racist.

It's not putting anything in color, so to speak.

She's asking those provocative questions from a lived experience.

How do you put these things not in theory, but in practicum?

How do you make sure that you're protecting the interest of all people?

And so if we can do that, if we can make sure that our people are prepared and educated, well prepared and trained to not only practice in front of the bench, but also sit on it, that's important.

So, that's number one, the training aspect.

Number two is making sure we fight these fights.

The passage of the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, the passage of the Freedom to Vote Act -- all these things are critical to the foundation principle of where we are.

We have to make sure that we're protecting future generations, and the only way to do that is to make sure that these federal legislations are passed and that we also protect legislation throughout the state.

Putting our jurists and making sure that they're well trained on the bench and putting advocates in front of those jurors to make sure that they can advocate for people -- that's number one.

Number two is making sure that we protect the legislation that's for our people and make sure that it gets passed in the various locations that it is.

>> That's a big agenda.

>> It is.

>> The Biden-Harris administration has appointed more African-Americans and other persons of color to the court... >> Yes.

>> ...to be judges... >> Yes.

>> ...than any other administration.

>> Yep.

>> Does the National Bar get involved in recommending candidates to be judges?

>> We do.

>> I have to thank the Biden-Harris administration for the work that they're doing.

I don't think that enough of our people -- and, quite frankly, America -- understands the value -- >> The consequences.

>> Yes, and the consequential outcomes of doing that.

>> Yes.

>> Because if I can put people on the bench, again, that are diverse, that know the struggles, and when they receive the briefs and it's time for them to make rulings, that's how you maintain the protections that we have.

It's because people go in with ideologies that they have instead of looking at where we come from that changes our laws.

And so this administration must be commended, must be applauded, must be celebrated for ensuring that they took that step, that critical step.

And it's not only just Black people.

They have put more Black women on the bench than any other administration before them.

Ultimately, we have to keep it going.

So the National Bar Association does.

We vet.

We look at candidates.

We look at not only their judicial record.

If they're lawyers and they're trying to get on the bench, we look at the cases that they've brought before the bench, make sure that they're well trained, because we don't want to put somebody before this administration or any other that hasn't been well vetted.

>> Right.

>> And so we do that.

And we've done that work for years.

>> Federal judges are a lifetime appointment.

>> Lifetime.

>> So it makes a big difference.

>> It does.

>> You also mentioned these important pieces of legislation that need to be enacted.

>> Yeah.

>> We now have more African-Americans who are members of Congress than ever before -- 60.

>> Yeah.

>> How does the National Bar Association work with the Congressional Black Caucus?

>> So, just yesterday I was having a conversation with Congressman Horsford, and we were talking about ways in which that we can assist.

>> He's the chair.

>> He's the chair, out of Las Vegas.

We met with staff from Congressman Jeffries' office.

Gregory Meeks, Mr. Clyburn, who you have to thank for his years of service, and a number of other individuals.

We were just on the Hill having these discussions about, "How can we support them?"

How can we, as the Black lawyers, ensure that we give them positive information, make sure that if they have bills that are being laid out, we provide that testimony, the history that I talked about, making sure that it's part of the Congressional Record and ensuring that they are aware -- "they" being Congress -- are aware of our position and what's going on with and how these bills impact America.

And our goal is to ensure that there's never a moment where the Congressional Black Caucus is devoid of a lawyer to assist them in pushing through legislation.

>> Through the lens of the rule of law, what gives you your greatest hope?

>> The law is a living document.

It's free-flowing.

It's ever-changing.

It's always evolving.

My living hope is what I have seen over the course of America.

Since 1776, rights were not given.

1865, rights were destroyed, but yet given.

When you talk about 1965, those rights continue to fight.

Or those individuals continue to fight for those rights.

My hope and my belief is in what I have seen in the American dream, what I have seen over the years and over the centuries, that there are people that will continue to fight, that will stand in and say, "Something is not right," and eventually the American conscience will agree with them.

Eventually America will say, "Our ideal is all those things that I talked about before -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law."

And the rule of law, in my opinion, has always been on the side of protecting the rights of everyone.

So my hope is that we'll continue to do that as a people.

We'll continue to bring up these injustices, not because we just want to speak about them or because we want to make anyone feel bad, but because it's the right thing to do.

And America, since its inception, although tricky at times, has always found a way to do the right thing.

>> Attorney Dominique Calhoun, president of the National Bar Association, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you, Dr. Chavis.

Appreciate it.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following... At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the US economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo, the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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