REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

THERE IS AN ADVANTAGE TO HAVING INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY IN NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN READING ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE COMING UP ABOUT WIPP, THE WASTE ISOLATION PILOT PLANT AND CHANGES AND THEN I REMEMBER THAT MY LATE HUSBAND WORKED WITH THE SECRETARY OF ENERGY, JAMES SCHLESINGER, AND HE HAD TOLD ME THAT NEW MEXICO WAS PROMISED THE RIGHT TO VETO ANY PLAN THAT THE DOE WAS GOING TO PUT FORTH, WE COULD OKAY IT OR NOT.

AND I THOUGHT, HMM, THEY ARE PUTTING SOME BIG PLANS FORTH, WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THIS?

AND I AM SO HAPPY TO INTRODUCE YOU TODAY, OUR GUEST, DON HANCOCK, WHO IS WITH THE SOUTHWEST RESEARCH AND INFORMATION CENTER, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>>DON: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY.

>>LORENE: WELL TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND AND YOUR AREA OF EXPERTISE AND THEN THEY WILL KNOW WHY WE ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>>DON: WELL I HAVE BEEN AT SOUTHWEST RESEARCH AND INFORMATION CENTER, WHICH IS A PRIVATE NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION, SINCE 1975.

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS I HAVE PAID MOST ATTENTION TO DURING THAT TIME IS WIPP, THE WASTE ISOLATION PILOT PLANT, AND KIND OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS WITH THAT.

SO BOTH LOOKING AT WHAT IS GOING ON, PARTICIPATING IN A VARIETY OF PUBLIC INFORMATION, PUBLIC EDUCATION, READING LOTS OF DOCUMENTS, GOING TO LOTS OF MEETINGS, TESTIFYING BEFORE CONGRESS, TESTIFYING RECENTLY BEFORE THE STATE LEGISLATIVE RADIOACTIVE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS COMMITTEE AND NATIONAL ACADEMIES OF SCIENCES AND OTHER GROUPS.

SO I AM SOMETIMES CALLED A WATCHDOG, BUT I HAVE BEEN PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO NUCLEAR WASTE, GENERALLY AND WIPP SPECIFICALLY, FOR THE LAST 45 YEARS.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE NEED YOUR EXPERTISE.

I WOULD LIKE TO SORT OF START WITH, IT IS VERY HARD TO SUMMARIZE THESE THINGS IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT WE HAVE, BUT IF WE COULD LOOK JUST A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND NUCLEAR ISSUES IN NEW MEXICO AND WHY HAS THERE BEEN SO MUCH GOING ON IN OUR STATE.

>>DON: WELL, OF COURSE, THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS HISTORY STARTS IN 1943 WITH THE FOUNDING OF LOS ALAMOS AS A SECRET CITY DURING WORLD WAR II, FOR THE PURPOSE OF DEVELOPING THE FIRST ATOMIC BOMB, WHICH WAS DONE.

THE FIRST BOMB WAS ACTUALLY EXPLODED IN NEW MEXICO IN JULY OF 1945 AT THE TRINITY SITE.

IN 1949, SANDIA LABS IS FOUNDED SO WE HAVE HAD THE TWO LABORATORIES WORKING ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS ISSUES PRIMARILY, OF COURSE, THEY WORK ON SOME OTHER ISSUES, TOO.

THEREFORE, THAT VERY LONG PERIOD OF TIME, WE ALSO HAD A LOT OF MINING OF URANIUM AND MILLING OF URANIUM FOR THOSE NUCLEAR WEAPONS WAS ALSO DONE IN NEW MEXICO.

SO WE HAVE A VERY LONG HISTORY, SO IT WAS IN SOME SENSES, NOT A SURPRISE.

IN 1972, ALMOST 50 YEARS AGO WHEN THE THEN ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION, THAT PREDECESSOR BEFORE THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY THAT YOU MENTIONED, HAD THEIR DIRECTOR COME TO NEW MEXICO AND ANNOUNCED THAT THE FIRST NUCLEAR WASTE, DEEP UNDERGROUND NUCLEAR WASTE DISPOSAL SITE, WOULD BE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO.

SO NEW MEXICO WAS SEEN KIND OF AS A LOGICAL PLACE BECAUSE WE HAD BEEN INVOLVED ALREADY IN A LOT OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS ACTIVITIES AND, OF COURSE, HAD SOME NUCLEAR WEAPONS WASTE IN THE STATE THAT WAS AT LAS ALAMOS.

>>LORENE: SO TELL ME WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THESE DEEP UNDERGROUND SALT CAVERNS THAT MAKES IT SUCH A SAFE PLACE TO PUT LIMITED AMOUNTS OF CERTAIN KINDS OF NUCLEAR WASTE AND WHAT IS THE WASTE THAT IS ALLOWED TO GO INTO WIPP AND HOW DANGEROUS IS IT AND THEN, WHAT IS A HALF-LIFE, WHAT KIND OF HALF-LIFE ARE WE LOOKING AT WITH SOME OF THESE ELEMENTS?

>>DON: SO THE WASTE, WIPP IS LIMITED TO MILITARY NUCLEAR WEAPONS WASTE, IT IS CALLED TRANSURANIC.

TRANSURANIC MEANS HEAVIER THAN URANIUM ON THE PERIODIC TABLE, SO PLUTONIUM 239, WHICH IS A MAIN INGREDIENT IN THE PLUTONIUM CORES OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, IS THE PRIMARY, NOT THE ONLY, BUT THE PRIMARY RADIONUCLIDE, THE HALF-LIFE OF PLUTONIUM 239 IS 24,000 YEARS, SO THAT MEANS IN 24,000 YEARS, IT STILL HAS HALF OF ITS RADIOACTIVITY.

SO THE WAY THAT WE NORMALLY LOOK AT THAT AT LEAST TEN HALF-LIVES BEFORE IT, SORT OF IS DECAYING AWAY.

SO THAT IS 24,000 YEARS SO THAT IS WHY I SAY IT IS DANGEROUS FOR THOUSANDS OF GENERATIONS, FOR VERY LONG PERIODS OF TIME.

THE CRUCIAL ISSUE ABOUT PLUTONIUM IS THAT WHEN IT IS IN SOLID FORM AS IN BOMBS OR IN MUCH OF THE WASTE THAT COMES TO WIPP, THERE IS SMALLER AMOUNTS OF PLUTONIUM THAT ARE MIXED IN WITH OTHER MATERIALS FROM MAKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS, PLUTONIUM WEAPONS.

SO YOU HAVE TOOLS AND GLOVES AND BOOTIES AND CLOTHING AND SLUDGES THAT ARE MADE AND SO THAT PLUTONIUM PUT IN CONTAINERS AND THE PREDOMINANT CONTAINER AT WIPP IS 55-GALLON DRUMS, THAT WASTE IS CONTAINED.

IT IS NOT, THE SHIELDING THROUGH THE 55-GALLON DRUM, SHIELDS MOST OF THE PLUTONIUM, THE ALPHA EMITTING RADIONUCLIDES FROM PENETRATING AND AFFECTING PEOPLE.

SO I CAN AND HAVE WALKED RIGHT UP TO 55-GALLON DRUMS AS WORKERS CAN DO WITHOUT GETTING A SIGNIFICANT DOSE OF VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE PLUTONIUM THAT COMES TO WIPP, THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF EXCEPTION THAT WE WON'T GO INTO FOR RIGHT NOW.

BUT THAT IS THE PREDOMINANT.

SO THE REASON, SO YOU SAY WELL DOESN'T SOUND SO DANGEROUS, WHY DO YOU NEED TO PUT IT 2,000 FEET UNDERGROUND IN SALT AS YOU CORRECTLY SAID, WHICH IS THE WIPP SITE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO.

WELL, IT IS BECAUSE OF THAT THOUSANDS OF GENERATIONS LIFETIME THAT IT IS DANGEROUS.

IT IS VERY DANGEROUS IF IT IS INHALED, IF YOU BREATHE IT IN, SMALL PARTICLES OR YOU WOULD INGEST IT IN SOME WAY IN EAT OR DRINK SOMETHING THAT IS CONTAMINATED WITH PLUTONIUM.

IT ESSENTIALLY WOULD CAUSE CANCER OVER YEARS SO THAT THE REASON IT NEEDS TO BE PUT UNDERGROUND.

THE ADVANTAGE OF SALT IS THAT SALT WILL CLOSE OVER TIME, SO YOU MINE A HOLE IN SALT AND OVER TIME IT MOVES AND KIND OF CLOSES UP.

SO THE REASON THAT WIPP WAS THOUGHT TO BE A GOOD SITE IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE SALT.

YOU MINE OUT SOME SALT, YOU PUT THE CONTAINERS OF WASTE IN AND OVER TIME, BECAUSE THAT SALT IS ALWAYS MOVING A FEW INCHES A YEAR, SO OVER A FEW DECADES THE IDEA IS THE SALT WOULD ENCLOSE AND HOLD THAT WASTE SO IT WOULDN'T GET OUT FOR THESE THOUSANDS OF GENERATIONS.

>>LORENE: SO, THIS IS WHAT I WANT OUR PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT.

WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT THE STATE OF SOMETHING IN 24,000 YEARS?

WE CAN'T GET TO THE END OF THE WEEK, LET ALONE THINK ABOUT GENERATIONS, THOUSANDS OF GENERATIONS THAT WILL BE AFFECTED BY THIS.

SO THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY DID HAVE A SENSE THAT THEY WANTED TO PUT OUT A CALL FOR ARTISTS TO CREATE SOME SORT OF IMAGE OR SYMBOLISM TO SHOW PEOPLE IN 20,000 YEARS THAT THIS WAS A BAD PLACE, THERE WAS SOMETHING BAD THERE AND TO STAY AWAY FROM IT.

SO CONCRETE WON'T LAST, STAINLESS STEEL WILL BARELY LAST AND SO THESE ARTISTS CAME UP WITH SOME VERY CLEVER, BRILLIANT THINGS.

BUT WHO KNOWS YOU KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE, THERE MAY NOT EVEN BE LANGUAGE THE WAY WE KNEW IT THEN.

MY FAVORITE WAS AN ARTIST WHO CREATED PIPES OF PAN, HUGE, LIKE 20 FEET, ACROSS WHOSE MOUTH WHEN THE WIND BLEW IT PLAYED A D MINOR CHORD, WHICH IN MOST CULTURES IS A CHORD OF SADNESS AND GRIEF AND THEY WOULD TRY TO WARN THOSE WHO HAD EARS THAT THIS WAS A SAD PLACE AND TO NOT MESS WITH IT.

BUT, SO ONE OF THE REASONS I INVITED YOU HERE, THERE IS A NEW MISSION THAT THE DOE IS SUGGESTING FOR WIPP AND WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT OUR RIGHTS ARE AS A STATE.

DO WE HAVE VETO RIGHTS, WHAT HAVE OTHER STATES HAVE DONE, LOOK WHAT COLORADO DID BECAUSE ONE OF THE REASONS FOR WIPP WAS ALL OF THE PLUTONIUM PITS THAT WERE OUTSIDE OF DENVER.

>>DON: ROCKY FLATS.

>>LORENE: ROCKY FLATS AND THEN IDAHO, YOU KNOW, I MEAN A LOT OF STATES HAVE STEPPED UP AND USED LAW AND THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THEIR LEADERSHIP TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE.

SO WHAT ARE OUR RIGHTS AND WHAT IS THE NEW MISSION THAT IS SO CONCERNING BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO BE TRANSPORTING IT IN ITS MOST DANGEROUS FORM FOR 3,000, 6,000 MILES TO SOUTH CAROLINA AND BACK, TELL US.

>>DON: SO OUR RIGHTS AS YOU MENTIONED, THEN SECRETARY SCHLESINGER IN THE 1970S SAID, WE WOULD HAVE VETO, CONGRESS NEVER AGREED WITH THAT.

SO WHEN CONGRESS AUTHORIZED WIPP AND INSTEAD SAID, THE STATE COULD HAVE CONSULTATION AND COOPERATION RIGHTS.

THE STATE IN 1981, THEN ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFF BINGAMAN AND THEN GOVERNOR BRUCE KING, SUED THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WHEN THEY WANTED TO START CONSTRUCTING WIPP IN 1981, 40 YEARS AGO.

OUT OF THAT LAWSUIT WAS THIS SIGNED AGREEMENT, CONSULTATION AND COOPERATION AGREEMENT, WHICH IS BOTH A LEGAL CONTRACT AND IN COURT.

THE LATER LAWS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PASSED SPECIFICALLY THE 1992 WIPP LAND WITHDRAWAL ACT SAID, THAT AGREEMENT IS STILL IN PLACE.

SO THAT AGREEMENT IS NOT VETO BUT IT DOES REQUIRE THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY TO PROVIDE THE STATE AND THE PUBLIC WITH INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT IT IS GOING TO DO BEFORE IT MAKES MAJOR CHANGES TO WIPP, SO THAT THE STATE AND THE PUBLIC HAVE THE RIGHT TO PARTICIPATE.

SO THAT IS ONE MECHANISM.

ANOTHER MECHANISM THROUGH LEGAL ACTION AND THAT 1992 LAW, THE STATE HAS AUTHORITY TO ISSUE A PERMIT FOR WIPP UNDER THE STATE'S HAZARDOUS WASTE ACT, THE STATE DID ISSUE A PERMIT IN 1999, WIPP OPENED AND RECEIVED ITS FIRST WASTE IN 1999.

THAT PERMIT PUTS RESTRICTIONS ON A LOT OF THINGS RELATED TO WIPP INCLUDING HOW LONG IT OPERATES.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE CURRENT PERMIT SAYS THAT WASTE DISPOSAL SHOULD END BY 2024.

PERMITS CAN BE CHANGED BUT, AGAIN, YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PUBLIC PROCESS TO DO THOSE THINGS.

SO ONE OF THE MAJOR THINGS WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN AND I AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, LET'S GET ON WITH A RENEWAL FOR THE PERMIT.

PERMITS UNDER THE STATE LAW ARE FOR 10 YEARS, THEY CAN BE RENEWED.

EXISTING STATE PERMIT EXPIRED IN DECEMBER OF 2020, ALMOST A YEAR AGO, SO IT NEEDS TO BE RENEWED.

WE WANT THAT PROCESS TO GO FORWARD, SO THESE ISSUES OF WHETHER THERE IS A NEW MISSION, WHAT IS ALLOWED IN A NEW MISSION, WHAT ISN'T ALLOWED IN A NEW MISSION, SO THOSE THINGS COULD ALL BE DISCUSSED IN A REQUIRED PUBLIC LEGAL FORUM SO WE COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON.

THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY HAS RESISTED THAT AND INSTEAD THEY HAVE WANTED TO MAKE INCREMENTAL OR PIECEMEAL CHANGES IN THE PERMITS RATHER THAN DEAL WITH THE WHOLE THING AND THE PERMIT RENEWAL PROCESS.

SO THAT HAS BEEN A SUBJECT OF DISPUTE.

THE NEW MISSION IS TO TAKE PLUTONIUM PITS, THE CORES OF NUCLEAR BOMBS, THAT ARE STORED AT THE PANTEX PLANT IN TEXAS NEAR AMARILLO, AND TRUCK THEM FROM PANTEX TO LOS ALAMOS, SO THAT MEANS PEOPLE WHO DRIVE THE ROADS KNOW FROM AMARILLO YOU COME TO NEW MEXICO ON I40, YOU COME UP US285 TO SANTA FE AND TAKE THE SANTA FE BYPASS AROUND SANTA FE TO THE SOUTH AND THE WEST ON 599 TO GO TO LOS ALAMOS.

AND THEN LOS ALAMOS WOULD CHANGE THE SOLID PLUTONIUM PITS INTO POWDER FORM, INTO OXIDE.

SO THAT WOULD BE A DANGEROUS FORM BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE IT IS MORE EASILY INHALED, FOR EXAMPLE, IN CASE OF AN ACCIDENT.

SO THE TRUCKS THEN WOULD GO WITH THE POWDERED PLUTONIUM BACK FROM LOS ALAMOS BY SANTA FE BY 285 DOWN TO CLINE'S CORNERS AND GO THEN EAST TO SOUTH CAROLINA, WHICH IS WHERE WE GET THIS 3,000 MILE TRIP THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT.

IN SOUTH CAROLINA, SOME MATERIAL WOULD BE MIXED INTO IT AT SAVANNAH RIVER SITE SO IT COULD THEN BE MORE LIKE THE PLUTONIUM THAT HAS BEEN COMING TO WIPP SINCE 1999.

THE PLUTONIUM CONTAMINATED THAT HAS BEEN COMING TO WIPP AND THEN IT WOULD COME FROM SOUTH CAROLINA TO WIPP.

SO WHAT IS THE NEW MISSION IS THE CHANGING SOLID PLUTONIUM PITS WHICH WERE NEVER SUPPOSED TO COME TO WIPP, WIPP WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR THINGS THAT ARE CONTAMINATED WITH PLUTONIUM BUT NOT ESSENTIALLY PURE PLUTONIUM, SO THAT IS A CHANGE MISSION AND THE PROCESS THAT IT IS GOING THROUGH AND PARTICULARLY THIS TRANSPORTATION BETWEEN PANTEX AND LOS ALAMOS AND LOS ALAMOS AND THE SAVANNAH RIVER WOULD BE TOTALLY NEW, HAS NEVER BEEN DONE IN THE 22 YEARS THAT WIPP HAS OPERATED AND THE THOUSANDS OF SHIPMENTS, WE HAVE NEVER HAD SHIPMENTS LIKE THAT.

SO IT IS A NEW SHIPMENT AND WOULD BE IN DIFFERENT CONTAINERS, SO THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IT.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DON HANCOCK OF THE SOUTHWEST RESEARCH AND INFORMATION CENTER, AS YOU CAN SEE, QUITE A FONT OF INFORMATION.

WELL A LOT OF PEOPLE ALONG THE ROADS LIKE 285, REALIZE THAT THE NEW MISSION PRESENTS IT IN A MUCH MORE DANGEROUS FORM AND PEOPLE DON'T WANT THIS STUFF.

IF THERE IS A TRUCK ACCIDENT AND I THINK THE STATISTICS ARE THERE ARE FIVE MAJOR TRUCK ACCIDENTS IN NEW MEXICO EVERY YEAR, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS MORE OR LESS, BUT THERE IS A CHANCE THAT IF THERE IS AN ACCIDENT WITH THIS POWDER, INHALABLE MATERIAL OR IF IT SPILLS SAY ON TO RANCHLAND OR FARMLAND AND THE WAY IT CAN DAMAGE YOU IS EITHER BY BREATHING THE PARTICLES OR BY INGESTING IT IN THE MEAT OF A COW WHO HAD BEEN GRAZING WHERE THE ACCIDENT HAD BEEN AND THE WIND HAD DEPOSITED THIS RADIOACTIVE POWDER EVERYWHERE.

IT IS VERY CONCERNING AND PEOPLE HAVE SO MUCH TO WORRY ABOUT AND I APPLAUD THE PEOPLE ALONG THESE ROUTES THAT ARE STEPPING UP.

I JUST WANT NEW MEXICO TO BE ABLE TO STEP UP AND PROTECT ITSELF BECAUSE WE HAD AGREED TO TAKE THE NUCLEAR WASTE AS OTHER DEPOSITORIES WERE GOING TO BE OPENED.

IT HAS BEEN 40 YEARS, THEY HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED, IT'S THE WASTE ISOLATION PILOT PLANT, BUT 40 YEARS LATER THERE IS NO OTHER AND NOW THEY WANT TO PUT EVERYTHING HIGHER THAN WE HAD ORIGINALLY AGREED TO ALL IN HERE AND WHAT POSSIBLE WAY DOES THAT BENEFIT NEW MEXICO?

WHY?

AND CAN WE DO WHAT OTHER STATES HAVE DONE, NEVADA PERSUADED THEM AGAINST USING YUCCA MOUNTAIN, WHICH WAS GOING TO BE ANOTHER DEPOSITORY.

IDAHO HAS SOME REALLY FIERCE STATE LAWS TO BE SURE THAT ALL THE STUFF FROM ROCKY FLATS THAT WAS PUT IN IDAHO WAS GOING TO COME DOWN TO WIPP.

WHAT CAN WE DO?

>>DON: SO I HAVE MENTIONED TWO OF THE THINGS.

THE STATE HAS RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSULTATION AND COOPERATION AGREEMENT, THE STATE HAS RIGHTS UNDER THE PERMITS, SO THOSE ARE TWO WAYS.

YOU HAVE MENTIONED THE FACT THAT OTHER STATES HAVE TAKEN OTHER ACTION.

SOMETIMES LEGAL ACTION, SOMETIMES SAYING, "WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE THINGS AND TELL THAT TO CONGRESS."

SO YES, THAT VARIETY OF THINGS SHOULD HAPPEN.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SHOULD FIRST HAPPEN ALSO IS THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY SHOULD ACTUALLY, TRUTHFULLY, TALK ABOUT WHAT ITS PLANS ARE.

THEY HAVEN'T OFFICIALLY TOLD THE STATE THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO, WHICH THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IN MY VIEW UNDER THE CONSULTATION AND COOPERATION AGREEMENT.

LAST YEAR THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES COMMITTEE THAT LOOKED AT WIPP FOR THREE YEARS, LOOKED AT DOE'S PLANS AND SAID WHAT WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS, TAKING PITS FROM PANTEX TO LOS ALAMOS TO SAVANNAH RIVER AND IN SOUTH CAROLINA AND THEN BACK TO WIPP.

THE NATIONAL ACADEMY DID A MORE THAN 200 PAGE REPORT DESCRIBING THIS.

THEY MADE A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS INCLUDING THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY SHOULD DO A PUBLIC PROCESS, WHAT IS CALLED AN PROGRAMMATIC ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT, BUT THEY SHOULD ALSO BE TALKING TO THE CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION, TO STATE OFFICIALS, AND TO THE PUBLIC ABOUT THESE PLANS.

THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY HAS REFUSED TO DO ANY OF THAT, THEY HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES RECOMMENDATIONS IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT WHAT THIS WOULD MEAN, WHAT THE TECHNICAL ISSUES ARE, THEY SAW WIPP AS A POTENTIAL BOTTLENECK OR CHOKE POINT IN ALL OF THIS PROCESS, THAT IT MAY NOT WORK OUT SO THE NATIONAL ACADEMY WAS SAYING YOU KNOW YOU NEED TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS TO LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, WHAT YOU ARE PLANNING TO DO SO THE STATE CAN SAY, "IT'S OKAY, IT IS NOT OKAY, THESE ARE THE KIND OF CHANGES WE WOULD WANT, ETC."

NONE OF THAT HAS YET HAPPENED AND SO WE HOPE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE STATE HOPE, THERE WAS A RECENT HEARING BY THE LEGISLATIVE RADIOACTIVE AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS COMMITTEE WHERE PEOPLE WERE ALSO MAKING THAT REQUEST AND IT IS BEING MADE IN MANY OTHER WAYS.

SO I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO IS SAY WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, WE OUGHT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, TELL US ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

LET'S DO A PUBLIC PROCESS, PUT OUT IN WRITING YOUR PLANS, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO DECIDE THINGS, IF YOU WANT TO SAY YOU HAVEN'T DECIDED THEM YET?

DO WE GET TO TALK ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU DECIDE OR DO WE ONLY HEAR ABOUT IT AFTER YOU DECIDED DOE?

SO THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT OTHER STATES HAVE DONE AND NEW MEXICO HAS THE RIGHT TO DO, TO SAY, WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S IS GOING ON.

WE MAY SAY IT IS OKAY, WE MAY SAY IT IS NOT OKAY, WE MAY SAY IT IS OKAY IF YOU DO CERTAIN THINGS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE ARE AGREED TO WIPP AS LONG AS IT WAS FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WASTE, A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME TO BE CONTROLLED BY THE STATE'S PERMIT, THE CONSULTATION AND COOPERATION AGREEMENT YOU NEED TO, YOU DOE, NEED TO COMPLY WITH ALL THOSE THINGS.

AND SO THAT IS THE KIND OF THING WE WOULD LIKE DOE TO DO.

>>LORENE: SO WHAT WE WOULD LIKE IS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE THESE CONCERNS OR ARE HEARING ABOUT IT FOR THE FIRST TIME, WE WOULD LIKE FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES AND TO DECIDE WHETHER THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT THEY WANT TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT AND KIND OF PROTECT OUR STATE OR WHETHER, YOU KNOW PEOPLE HAVE A LOT ON THEIR PLATE RIGHT NOW.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO GIVE YOUR WEBSITE BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION, PROBABLY YOU EVEN HAVE THE LINK TO THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES REPORT THAT CAME OUT LAST YEAR.

SO, TELL US YOUR WEBSITE IF YOU WOULD.

>>DON: SO MY ORGANIZATION IS SOUTHWEST RESEARCH AND INFORMATION CENTER.

SO THE WEBSITE IS THE ACRONYM, SRIC, SOUTHWEST RESEARCH INFORMATION CENTER, DOT ORG (SRIC.ORG).

IT HAS A LOT OF INFORMATION SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WIPP UNDER NUCLEAR WASTE.

I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GO THERE, I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY'S WEBSITE, WHICH IS WIPP DOT ENERGY DOT GOV (WIPP.ENERGY.GOV).

THERE IS A LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT WIPP ON THAT SITE, I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GO THERE.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU WON'T SEE THE KIND OF INFORMATION THAT WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT, ABOUT THESE FUTURE PLANS.

BUT, AGAIN, THAT IS AN AREA PEOPLE NEED TO LET YOUR OWN ELECTED OFFICIALS KNOW AND LET THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY KNOW THAT YOU WANT TO SEE THAT KIND OF INFORMATION, YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

YOU WANT TO HAVE MORE FREQUENT PUBLIC MEETINGS AND WRITTEN DOCUMENTS AND MEANS THAT THE PEOPLE CAN COMMENT ON WHAT IS GOING ON AND RESPOND FOR EXAMPLE TO THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES TO DO PUBLIC MEETINGS, PUBLIC PROCESS, WORK WITH STATE OFFICIALS, CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATIONS AND THE PUBLIC TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

HEAR THE CONCERNS THAT THEY HAVE AND MAYBE IN FACT CHANGE SOME OF YOUR PLANS.

>>LORENE: AND THE IMPORTANT ELEMENT, THE KIND OF SUBSTRUCTURE OF ALL OF THIS, IS THE ROLE OF SCIENCE AND THERE IS A MOVEMENT AGAINST SCIENCE, BUT THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES IS ABOUT AS IMPECCABLE AS YOU CAN GET IN TERMS OF JUST LOOKING AT FACTS AND LOOKING AT THE SCIENCE.

SO I DO RECOMMEND THAT.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS I ASKED YOU AT THIS TIME OF YEAR THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF IMPORTANT DECISIONS, A LOT OF MEETINGS IN SEPTEMBER AND OCTOBER, THERE ARE MORE MEETINGS AND MORE IMPORTANT DECISIONS OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

AND NEW MEXICO HAS THE LEGAL MEANS TO INFLUENCE WHAT HAPPENS IF WE ARE NOT ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH AND SO THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL GET INVOLVED AND EDUCATE THEMSELVES AND THEN WE CAN MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS, IS THIS WHAT WE WANT FOR NEW MEXICO?

BUT, AGAIN, WHEN DOES IT EXPIRE, IT WAS TIMED TO HAVE SO MUCH STUFF IN IT, AND THEN CLOSE IT AND LET THE SALT ENCAPSULATE IT AND KEEP US FROM THE DANGER OF THAT MEDIUM LEVEL RADIOACTIVE WASTE.

BUT NOW, THEY WANT TO EXTEND IT AND IT WASN'T PLANNED TO BE EXTENDED FOREVER.

>>DON: IT WASN'T AND IT WAS PLANNED TO WORK BETTER THAN IT HAS WORKED.

IN 2014, THERE WAS AN ACCIDENT, AN EXPLOSION, A RELEASE FROM THE UNDERGROUND OF A SMALL AMOUNT OF MATERIAL, BUT THAT MATERIAL CONTAMINATED 22 WORKERS THAT WERE ON THE SURFACE, THERE WAS NOBODY UNDERGROUND FORTUNATELY.

CONTAMINATED WORKERS ON THE SURFACE, THE SITE WAS CLOSED TOTALLY FOR THREE YEARS, NO NEW WASTE COULD COME IN, NO WASTE COULD GET PUT UNDERGROUND.

SO THAT WAS SET MORE THAN SEVEN YEARS AGO.

THE SITE IS STILL NOT FUNCTIONING AS IT WAS SUPPOSED TO.

SO BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT EXPANDING AND NEW MISSIONS, WE SHOULD FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF UNDERGROUND CONTAMINATION ALREADY AND THAT SORT OF THING AND WORKERS NOW WORKING UNDERGROUND WITH THE WASTE HAVE TO BE IN FULL PROTECTIVE GEAR SO THAT THEY WON'T BE BREATHING IN CONTAMINATION THAT IS STILL IN THE UNDERGROUND.

SO THESE KINDS OF ISSUES NEED TO BE FULLY LOOKED AT AND HOW TO AVOID FUTURE ACCIDENTS AND TO DECIDE WHETHER THESE ADDITIONAL MISSIONS SHOULD BE TAKEN ON WHEN WIPP HASN'T BEEN FULLY ABLE TO DO THE MISSION IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO.

>>LORENE: WELL, OUR GUEST TODAY IS DON HANCOCK WITH THE SOUTHWEST RESEARCH AND INFORMATION CENTER.

I AM SO GRATEFUL TO YOU FOR GIVING US THIS INFORMATION, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, AND THOSE WHO HAVE EARS WILL HEAR.

PEOPLE I HOPE WILL LOOK INTO THE SCIENCE AND LOOK TO BE PROACTIVE TO PROTECT OUR BEAUTIFUL BELOVED STATE.

BUT I AM VERY GRATEFUL TO YOU, DON, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

THANK YOU.

>>DON: AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I REALLY APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY AND I HOPE PEOPLE IN YOUR AUDIENCE WILL TAKE A LOOK AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND GET INVOLVED.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

WELL I AM LORENE MILLS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE AND REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM