>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", A PANDEMIC, AND ECONOMIC CRISIS, A SENATE TRIAL OF FORMER OR ALMOST FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

THAT IS WHAT JOE BIDEN FACES AS HE BECOMES THE 46TH PRESIDENT.

AND WOMEN OF COLOR ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY FEELING THE PAIN OF THE CORONAVIRUS.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, THE NATION PREPARES FOR A STARKLY DIFFERENT INAUGURATION DAY AFTER DONALD TRUMP IS IMPEACHED FOR A SECOND TIME BY THE HOUSE.

LAST WEEK'S CAPITOL INSURRECTION AND FEARS OF MORE VIOLENCE.

WITH US TODAY, DC DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON; RINA SHAH BHARARA, CO FOUNDER OF REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR A BIDEN; DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, HILARY ROSEN; AND TIANA LO, COMMENTATOR AND WRITER FOR THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER.

WELCOME TO EVERYBODY.

HOW ARE YOU?

ELEANOR, AS WE LOOK FORWARD, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE SENATE TRIAL OF DONALD TRUMP ON CHARGES OF INCITING A RIOT AND ANARCHY AND EVERYTHING ELSE YOU COULD THROW IN HAVING TO DO WITH THAT RIOT LAST WEEK IN THE U.S. CAPITAL ?

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN IT GETS TO THE SENATE, WHICH WILL BE SPLIT 50-50, BUT WITH KAMALA HARRIS JUMPING IN, VICE PRESIDENT, 51-50 VOTE IN THE SENATE?

>> Donna Edwards: IT'S NOT CLEAR WHETHER A FULL TRIAL WILL TAKE PLACE, THOUGH IT'S INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT EVEN McCONNELL SEEMS TO BE COMING TO THE REPUBLICAN SENATOR, NOW FORMER SENATOR SEEMS TO BE COMING AROUND.

I THINK THAT BIDEN SHOULD PRESS HARD FOR ANY POSTPONEMENT OF ANY TRIAL, AND I THINK HE WILL.

HE WANTS TO GET HIS PEOPLE IN OFFICE.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE THIS HOLDOVER FROM TRUMP SOILING HIS ENTRY INTO THE PRESIDENCY.

FRANKLY, HOLDING THIS OPEN FOR 100 DAYS OR EVEN MORE WHEN IT WILL MAYBE FADE IS THE BEST COURSEHEY CANNOT DO NOTHING.

ONCE WE HAVE IMPEACHED HERE IN THE HOUSE, THEY MUST DO SOMETHING AND NOW THEY'VE GOT TO DECIDE WHAT IT IS THEY WANT TO DO.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

RINA SHAH BRA ROLL, HEAD OF REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR BIDEN, DOES THE PARTY, WHEN YOU SEE THINGS LIKE SOON TO BE FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL SAYING THAT HE THINKS TRUMP SHOULD BE IMPEACHED AND IT SHOULD GO TO THE SENATE FOR A TRIAL, DOES THAT SHOW YOU WE ARE ABOUT TO SEE A COMPLETE REMAKE OF THE PARTY?

WITH PEOPLE SUCH AS YOURSELF, MORE MAINSTREAM rs AS OPPOSED TO EXTREME RIGHT TAKING IT OVER?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: AT FIRST GLANCE, IT LOOKS LIKE WHAT YOU IMAGINE.

IT COULD BE A REMAKE AND IT COULD BE IMMINENT, MEANING VERY, VERY SOON.BUT I THINK THE IMPEACHMENT VOTE ON WEDNESDAY REALLY SIGNAL SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

FOR ME, IT'S VERY, VERY SAD THAT ONLY 10 REPUBLICANS DECIDED TO CHOOSE TO IMPEACH.

IT'S AN INDICATION THAT THE CARE FAR MORE ABOUT THE POLITICAL FUTURES AND THAT THEY ARE SCARED OF THE PIECE OF TRUMP SUPPORTERS THAT MANY -- > Bonnie: THERE IS REASON FOR THAT, RIGHT?

74 MILLION PEOPLE VOTED TO REELECT TRUMP IN NOVEMBER.

>> Rina Shah Bharara: WELL, THERE IS THAT BIT, BUT I'M THINKING OF WHAT HAPPENED PRIOR TO WEDNESDAY, THE WEEK BEFORE.

ON THE WEDNESDAY PRIOR, WHAT WE HAD WAS VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY THOSE WHO WERE SAYING THEY WERE ACTING ON BEHALF OF THE PRESIDENT.

THEY WANTED TO STOP THIS DEAL, WORKS AT THE PRESIDENT PUT IN THEIR MINDS.

THEY WERE RADICALIZED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THIS IS NOT JUST A DOZEN PEOPLE.

NOT JUST A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE.

THEY WERE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT I WITNESSED BASICALLY TAKE OVER THE CAPITOL, AND PEOPLE CAN SAY THAT THEY ARRIVED THERE HOPING TO BE PART OF PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION, WHICH IS A CORNERSTONE OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE TALKED ABOUT IT A LOT.

BUT WHAT I WITNESSED WAS PURE ANARCHY, AND THAT WAS WHAT THEY WANTED.

THEY WANT TO DO BECAUSE THAT HEY WERE COMING FOR THE HEADS OF PENCE AND PELOSI, AND THERE'S A REASON, AGAIN, RADICALIZATION BY THE SUPPOSED LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD.

SO WHEN I SAW THE IMPEACHMENT VOTE, I WAS HOPING THAT MANY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WOULD DO WHAT MY FRIEND, REPRESENTATIVE JIMMY HERRERA BUTLER DID: SHE IS JUST A LITTLE BIT OVER THE AGE OF 40, SHE'S GOT VERY YOUNG CHILDREN, THREE OF THEM VERY YOUNG.

I KNOW HER PERSONALLY BECAUSE OUR CHILDREN ARE CLOSE IN AGE.

AND SHE DID THE BRAVE THING.

SHE PUT COUNTRY OVER PARTY BY JOINING CONGRESSWOMAN LIZ CHENEY AND BEING ONLY ONE OF TWO REPUBLICAN WOMEN IN THE HOUSE TO VOTE FOR IMPEACHMENT.

THEY JOINED EIGHT OF THEIR MALE COLLEAGUES IN DOING SO.

AND SO, WHAT THAT TELLS ME IS THAT THE OTHER 201 CARE MORE ABOUT SELF-PRESERVATION AND POWER AS WELL AS DEATH THREATS FROM THE TRUMP BASE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.>> Bonnie: HILARY ROSEN, YOU HAVE, I'M SURE, SEEING A COUPLE OF PARTY TRANSFORMATIONS.

I THINK BACK TO RAEGAN IN THE ACT WATER AND CALLED AND SAYING THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE SLAVERY WAS A BIG TENT, THAT IT WAS FOR MORE THAN JUST WHITE CONSERVATIVES.

WHAT DO YOU SEE COMING OUT OF THE WRECKAGE OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY IN TERMS OF THE PARTY?

IS IT GOING TO STAY THE SAME BECAUSE HE HAS 74 MILLION SUPPORTERS, WHICH IS WAY MORE THAN ANY OTHER BLOCK OF THE PARTY, AS RIGHT NOW?

>> Tiana Lowe: WELL, WE HAVE SEEN PULLING JUST THIS WEEK POST THE RIOTS AT THE CAPITOL THAT SHOW THAT 70 PERCENT OF REPUBLICANS STILL SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP.

AND, YOU KNOW, SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF REPUBLICANS DON'T WANT TO SEEM IMPEACHED.

I THINK DEMOCRATS REALLY NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FOCUS ON WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO GOING FORWARD.

WE WILL HAVE CONTROL OVER THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND THE WHITE HOUSE, AND I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE DESPERATELY READY TO TURN THE PAGE.

IF YOU ASKED PEOPLE, DO THEY SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP, THEY MIGHT SAY YES.

BUT THEY ALSO WANT TO GET THEIR FAMILIES BACK TO WORK.

THEY WANT THEIR CHECKS TO BE INCREASED, THEY WANT UNEMPLOYMENT TO DROP, THEY WANT THE COUNTRY TO CALM DOWN.

AND I THINK THAT THAT UNFORTUNATELY IS GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DEMOCRATS' RESPONSIBILITY TO TRY AND FIND WAYS TO MOVE ON, AND THAT IS WHY WHAT JOE BIDEN IS SAYING AND DOING RIGHT NOW IS SO IMPORTANT.

WE CANNOT GET CAUGHT UP IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY INVITING.

>> Bonnie: AND THERE ARE A LOT OF DEMOCRATS WERE NOT GOING TO BE HAPPY UNLESS HE IS IMPEACHED, UNLESS THE SENATE DOES AT LEAST TWO A TRIAL, EVEN IF THE NUMBERS ARE AGAINST THE SENATE.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE DEMOCRATS?

>> I KNOW THERE ARE FOLKS THAT THINK GOING TO THE SENATE RIGHT NOW AND TRYING TO GET A VOTE IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I PERSONALLY DO NOT SEE 17 REPUBLICANS WHO WILL VOTE TO CONVICT.

YOU KNOW, BUT I'M NOT THE BEST REPUBLICAN VOTE COUNTER ON THIS CALL.

BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT THE FBI AND THE SECRET SERVICE AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY COLLECTING DATA POINTS THEY ARE COLLECTING INFORMATION.

THEY ARE MAKING ARRESTS.

AND WHEN ADVANTAGE TO WAITING, AS ELEANOR JUST SAID, IS THAT THERE MAY ACTUALLY BE MORE EVIDENCE ABOUT HOW MUCH INCITEMENT THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY FELT FROM TRUMP ALLIES AND FROM TRUMP.

AND SO, YOU COME TO A TRIAL WITH MORE EVIDENCE AND THEREFORE MORE ABILITY TO CONVICT ON THE BASIS OF FACT AND NOT A MOTION.

AND I THINK THAT IS MUCH AS I CAN'T STAND DONALD TRUMP, AS I HOLD HIM PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS, I JUST WORRY THAT A SENATE VOTE THAT DOES NOT RESULT IN CONVICTION ONLY MAKES -- ONLY EMPOWERS HIM AND HIS STORY AFTER THE FACT.

>> Bonnie: TIANA, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS A LIBERTARIAN, A SMALL PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, HOW DO YOU THINK -- WHAT YOU THINK REPUBLICANS SHOULD DO MOVING FORWARD?

SHOULD THERE BE A SENATE TRIAL, AND IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY OF GETTING THE 16 VOTES -- OR 15 VOTES THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO CONVICT DONALD TRUMP?>> Tiana Lowe: IS A PURELY STRATEGIC MATTER, IT DOES SEEM LIKE A SLAMDUNK SITUATION, BECAUSE MOST IMPORTANT, IF WE DO GO FORWARD WITH A TRIAL AND FORMALLY CONVICT, THAT MEANS THAT TRUMP CAN NEVER RUN.

HE CAN'T RUN FOR 2024, HE CAN'T TRY AND RUN FOR GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, AND HE CANNOT RUN FOR CONGRESS.

IN RIGHT NOW, I THINK IT'S MADE PRETTY CLEAR THAT THIS IS A HOSTAGE SITUATION.

TRUMP BASICALLY HELP MEMBERS OF CONGRESS HOSTAGE, RILED UP AND ANGRY MOB SO THEY COULD GO INTO THE CAPITOL AND CHANT, HANG MIKE PENCE.

EVEN IF YOU ARE THE MOST MAGA OF CONSERVATIVES, IS CONVICTING TRUMP CLEARS UP YOUR WAY FOR 2024 -- AND BEYOND THE OBVIOUS VOTES, ROMNEY, TO ME, MURKOWSKI, COLLINS, WE ALREADY HAVE MITCH McCONNELL SIGNALING TO HIS MEMBERS, LOOK OUT FOR YOURSELVES.

SO I AM TOM COTTON LOOKING TO MY 2024 PROSPECTS, YOU KNOW, YOU ALREADY MANAGED TO INDIVIDUALIZE ITSELF BY NOT GOING ON WITH THE FARCE THAT JOE BIDEN STOLE THE ELECTION, WHY NOT REMOVE?

WHY NOT MOVE TO CONVICT?

WHY NOT FURTHER CLEAR THE WAY?

IT'S ALSO AN EASY WAY TO WAIVE YOUR HANDS CLEAN OF OUR PRESIDENT THAT NEEDS TO GO.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

IN A FEW MINUTES WE HAVE REMAINING, LET'S TALK ABOUT WHETHER JOE BIDEN CAN MAKE GOOD ON HIS PROMISE TO UNITE THE COUNTRY IF THERE ARE FEDERAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST, AT THAT POINT, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND A HOST OF OTHER ISSUES WHERE THE PARTIES ARE IN MAJOR DISAGREEMENT, SUCH AS, FOR EXAMPLE, MIGRATION.

FIRST FROM YOU, HILARY, BECAUSE YOU ARE A DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST AND WELL-KNOWN TO THE PEOPLE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HOW THE HECK IS HE GOING TO UNITE A COUNTRY THAT IS AS ALMOST AS DIVIDED AS IT WAS AT THE START OF THE CIVIL WAR, 100+ -- 150+ YEARS AGO?

>> Hilary Rosen: WELL, I THINK THE ONLY THING THAT MATCHES THE FERVOR OF BEING ANTI-TRUMP RIGHT NOW FOR DEMOCRATS IS THE DESIRE FOR CHANGE AND CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY AND CHANGE IN IS IN POWER AND CHANGE WHO IS EMPOWERED.

AND I THINK THAT THAT KIND OF SUPPORT THAT JOE BIDEN WILL HAVE FROM DEMOCRATS TO ACTUALLY DO THINGS LIKE PASS ANOTHER STIMULUS BILL, TO HOLD BUSINESS ACCOUNTABLE FOR KEEPING EMPLOYEES ON, FOR HELPING SMALL BUSINESS.

YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY, THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WILL REALLY AFFECT PEOPLE'S LIVES IS REALLY STRONG.

AND I THINK THAT, TO TIANA'S POINT, I THINK HE'S GOING TO GET REPUBLICANS ON BOARD WITH THAT.

IF THAT MEANS THEY HAVE TO DISPENSE OF THIS TRUMP VOTE EARLIER TO DO THAT, HE WILL DO THAT.

IF THAT MEANS THAT THEY HAVE TO PUT OFF THE TRUMP VOTE TO DO THAT, I THINK THEY WILL DO THAT.

THERE IS NO BIGGER PRIORITY RIGHT NOW FOR THE BIDEN TEAM THAN TO GET TO WORK AND TO GET THINGS MOVING.

NUMBER ONE, NUMBER TWO, AND NUMBER THREE PRIORITY IS FOCUSING ON COVID.

THAT DOES INCLUDE, THOUGH, THE ECONOMY AND OTHER THINGS AROUND, BUT GETTING THIS VACCINE DISTRIBUTED MORE EFFECTIVELY, GETTING THE MASK RULE NATIONALLY.

YOU WILL SEE A LOT OF COHESION ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT, CROSS LEADERSHIP, AND EVEN WITH GOVERNORS WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN SUPPORTIVE BEFORE, BUT WHO WANT TO GET ON WITH IT.

SO I DO THINK THAT -- I'VE NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN AN INCOMING ADMINISTRATION BE AS LASER FOCUSED ON THE TASK AT HAND AS WE HAVE WITH THIS GROUP.

YOU KNOW, USUALLY PEOPLE ARE CELEBRATING NOW.

THE WEEK BEFORE INAUGURATION, YOU KNOW, AND UP IN AND WASHINGTON FOR A LOT OF THEM.

EVERYONE IS CELEBRATING THEIR ASCENSION TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

THIS TEAM IS NOT CELEBRATING.

THIS TEAM IS LASER FOCUSED ON GETTING TO WORK.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

YOUR THOUGHTS, RINA, IS THAT POSSIBLE TO JUST MOVE FORWARD, DON'T LOOK BACK AT TRUMP?

WILL THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SATISFY THE 80 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR BIDEN AND HARRIS?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: WELL, GIVEN THE SYSTEM THAT WE ARE IN AND CONSTRAINED BY, YOU KNOW, BONNIE, YOU'VE KNOWN ME AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A REPUBLICAN, LIFELONG REGISTERED AND WAS ONE AS 18.

I'VE NOT ALWAYS SURE THE PARTIES DO, BUT ONE THING I AM IS A PROPONENT OF SMALLER GOVERNMENT.

TO THE DEMOCRATS.

LOOK, THEY ARE NOT PERFECT, BUT I PUNISHED REPUBLICANS IN THE BALLOT BOX FOR A REASON.

I TRUSTED THIS BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO BRING THE BEST PEOPLE FORWARD TO DO THE BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY.

AND TO PIGGYBACK OFF OF WHAT HILLARY SAID, I MUST SAY I'VE BEEN SO IMPRESSED BY THE PLANS THAT THEY HAVE FOR THE VIRTUAL INAUGURATION BECAUSE NOT ONLY ARE THEY LASER FOCUS ON REALLY RIGHTING THE WRONGS COMMITTED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, GREATLY OF WHICH IS THIS VACCINE DISTRIBUTION AND CRIPPLING THE STATES, I MEAN, THIS WAS THE ONE AREA I FELT WE NEED A FEDERAL UNIFIED RESPONSE.

THIS IS WHAT WE STUDIED IN THE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH.

THIS IS WHAT THEY TEACH PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS, THAT YOU HAVE A UNIFIED RESPONSE.

WE HAVE BEEN SUFFERING BECAUSE OF LACK OF THAT.

WHAT I SEE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS A COMMITMENT TO NOT JUST RIGHT THOSE WRONGS, TO GET TO FIX THE PROBLEMS, BUT TO ALSO DO RIGHT BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND HELP RESTORE OUR SPIRITHE PLANS THEY HAVE FOR NEXT WEEK OR SO GOOD, THINGS LIKE DAY OF SERVICE IN THE SPIRIT OF MLK, I MEAN, THESE ARE THE THINGS, LAYING WREATHS, CANDLES LOADING IN THE REFLECTING POOL.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

WE NEED A RESTORATION OF AMERICAN SPIRIT.

AND I THINK I REALLY, REALLY JUST THIS ADMINISTRATION.

LOOK, THEY ARE NOT PERFECT, BUT NOBODY IS.

WHAT WE NEED SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE HURTING AND WE ARE GOING TO BE OKAY, BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

ALL RIGHT.

WE ARE OUT OF TIME ON THIS TOPIC NOW.

FROM VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS, UPCOMING, AND OF COURSE THE BIDEN DASH CAMERAS ADMINISTRATION TO WOMEN OF COLOR.

>>> THE ECONOMIC IMPACT OF THE CORONAVIRUS IS DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTING WOMEN, ESPECIALLY WOMEN OF COLOR.

154,000 BLACK WOMEN HAVE LEFT THE WORKFORCE ENTIRELY IN DECEMBER ACCORDING TO THE NATIONAL WOMEN'S LAW CENTER.

SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC, 2.1 MILLION WOMEN HAVE LEFT THE WORKFORCE COMPARED WITH 1.7 MILLION MEN.

ELEANOR, WE SAW IN DECEMBER THAT BLACK WOMEN ALONE LOST BLACK WOMEN ALONE LOST 154,000 JOBS FOR THE LONGEST TIME, AND THIS HAS BEEN CALLED THE WOMAN SESSION, THINGS LIKE THAT, BECAUSE WOMEN HAVE BEEN HIT SO MUCH HARDER THAN MEN.

AND NOW, AS WOMEN OF COLOR, AS BLACK WOMEN LOST 154,000 JOBS, MEN GAINED 16,000 JOBS.

WHAT IS GOING ON AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: WELL, FIRST START WITH WOMEN.

IF YOU START WITH WOMEN OVERALL, THEIR NUMBERS FOR UNEMPLOYMENT IS TWICE AS HIGH AS IT WAS BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.

THEN YOU NARROW INTO AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN, THEN YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE JOBS THAT THEY HOLD.

AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHY THEY ARE THE DEEPEST TROUBLE.

THEY HOLD THE JOBS, SUCH AS RESTAURANT WORKERS, THAT HAVE BEEN MOST ENDANGERED.

MOREOVER, THEY HAVE THE DOUBLE DUTY THAT, OF COURSE, DISPROPORTIONATELY WOMEN HAVE GENERALLY OF EDUCATING CHILDREN AND WORKING.

SO WHEN YOU ARE WORKING IN JOBS SUCH AS RESTAURANT WORKERS THAT REQUIRE YOU TO BE THERE AND YOU'VE GOT TO HELP YOUR CHILDREN TELEWORK, YOU ARE GOING TO BE OUT OF WORK.

SO BLACK WOMEN ARE LOSING JOBS THAT THEY MAY NEVER AGAIN GET, AT LEAST UNTIL THIS ECONOMY BEGINS TO RECOVER.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW, INSTEAD OF RECOVERY, IS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE GETTING COVID.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

SO WHAT DO WE AS A COUNTRY GO TO THESE WOMEN TO HELP THEM GET EMPLOYED AGAIN?

I MEAN, THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT CREATE RESTAURANT JOBS, THAT'S FOR SURE.

IT MIGHT BE ABLE TO CREATE INFRASTRUCTURE, CONSTRUCTION JOBS, WHICH PAY MUCH BETTER, BUT, TIANA, WITH THAT IN YOUR MIND BE OF ASSISTANCE, YOU KNOW, A MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, OTHER KINDS OF GOVERNMENT CREATED WORK, IN MANY OF THOSE JOBS HELD, ESPECIALLY FOR BLACK WOMEN WHO WERE THROWN OUT OF WORK LAST YEAR BECAUSE OF THE COVID RECESSION?

>> Tiana Lowe: AT THE BEGINNING OF 2020, WE HAD ONE OF THE FINEST ECONOMIES IN GENERATIONS.

WE HAD THREE OUT OF EVERY FOUR NEW WORKERS WHERE PEOPLE WHO PREVIOUSLY WERE NOT A PART OF THE LABOR FORCE, BECAUSE THEY HAD GIVEN UP ON FINDING JOBS, THAT'S HOW TIGHT OUR LABOR MARKETS WORK.

WE SAW THE FIRST REAL WAGE GROWTH IN OVER A DECADE AND IT WAS DISPROPORTIONATELY GOING TO LOWER INCOME WORKERSE SAW RECORD THE ONE IMPLEMENT FOR MINORITIES, FOR WOMEN.

YOU DO NOT BREAK IN ECONOMY, AND ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT GLOBAL ECONOMY ON THE PLANET.

I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE ON THIS SHOW AND HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES ELSEWHERE: THESE LOCKDOWNS AND SPECIFICALLY THE SCHOOL SHUTDOWNS ARE THE MOST RACIST AND SEXIST POLICIES WE HAVE EVER IMPOSED, POST JIM CROW.

AND SO, WHAT YOU DO?

NUMBER ONE, REOPEN THE SCHOOLS.

OTHER NATIONS ARE LOOKING AT US LIKE WE ARE MORONS BECAUSE EVEN WHILE THEY SHUT THEIR RESTAURANTS, SHUT THEIR BARS, THEY KEPT THE SCHOOLS OPEN FOR THE YOUNG CHILDREN.

YOU DO NOT PUT THE BURDEN LIKE THIS THAT ALWAYS GOES TO WOMEN.

YOU KNOW, JONATHAN GRUBER, THE ARCHITECT OF OBAMA, HE SAID THAT WOMEN ALWAYS INCUR 100 PERCENT OF THE COST OF PAID LEAVE BILLS, AND THE SAME THING GOES TO A SCHOOL SHUT DOWN.

WHO ARE THE ONES ENABLING THIS TOTAL FAADE OF DISTANCE LEARNING?

WOMEN.

REOPEN THE SCHOOLS.

WE DO NOT NEED INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGE, WE DO NOT NEED A FEDERAL JOB, YOU DO NOT NEED TO REINVENT THE WHEEL.

JUST LET THINGS REOPEN.

WE ARE ALREADY SEEING IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA AND IN STATES LIKE UTAH THAT DIDN'T DO THESE HAM-FISTED SHUTDOWNS AND ENCOURAGE THINGS LIKE OUTDOOR DINING, THEY DON'T HAVE THE CORONAVIRUS CASES RIGHT NOW THAT ARE IN A LOS ANGELES [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: I WANT TO GO TO HILLARY.

WILL JOBS BOUNCE BACK JUST LIKE THAT?

I MEAN, THEY ARE BOUTIQUES, MOM-AND-POP GROCERY STORES, 7-ELEVEN'S, WHAT HAVE YOU, THEY'RE ALL KINDS OF RESTAURANTS THAT HAVE CLOSED FOR GOOD.

>> Hilary Rosen: OKAY.

SO THE PROBLEM FOR WOMEN, AND I THINK BOTH PARTIALLY WHAT TIANA IS SAYING IS TRUE AND WHAT ELEANOR IS SAYING IS ACCURATE, THAT WHAT WOMEN HAVE FOCUSED ON, CHILDCARE, RIGHT?

WE'VE HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE IN MANY CASES BETWEEN GOING TO LOW WAGE JOBS WHERE THERE WAS LESS PROTECTION AGAINST COVID OR STAYING HOME TAKING CARE AND EDUCATING THEIR CHILDREN.

SO CHILDCARE IS A MAJOR CRISIS IN THIS COUNTRY, HAS BEEN FOR A LONG TIME.

YOU KNOW, KAMALA HARRIS, ELIZABETH WARREN, OTHERS, THEY'VE HAD SIGNIFICANT CHILDCARE PROGRAMS.

I THINK JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS ARE GOING TO FOCUS ON THAT.

WITH REGARD TO SCHOOLS, CLEARLY IMPORTANT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, TEACHERS WERE AT MOST RISK.

AND WHEN YOU TAKE THE MONEY AWAY FROM STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS WHEN THEY ARE RESOURCE CONSTRAINED, THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO INSTITUTE THE KINDS OF SAVINGS, THE KINDS OF SAFETY PROTOCOLS THAT SCHOOLS NEEDED.

AND SO, IF YOU CAN GET THAT SUPPORT INTO LOCAL SCHOOLS SO THAT THEY CAN CREATE MORE DISTANCE BETWEEN DEATHS, SO THEY CAN HELP TEACHERS, SO THEY CAN HELP PEOPLE FEEL SAFE GOING TO THE SCHOOLS, THAT WILL HELP.

SO I THINK IN PART EVERYONE IS A LITTLE BIT RIGHT THAT WE GOT -- WE HAVE TO GET THINGS OPEN AGAIN, BUT WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE REASON THAT THEY DON'T IS BECAUSE THEY ARE RESOURCE CONSTRAINTS ON CHILDCARE, ON SUPPORT FOR SCHOOLS.

>> Bonnie: BUT DO NOT AGREE, HILARY, THAT A LOT OF THESE BUSINESSES THAT CLOSED ARE NOT REOPENING?

>> Hilary Rosen: NO QUESTION THAT THAT WILL HAPPEN.

>> Bonnie: SO EVEN IF WE GO BACK AND GIVE THOSE KIDS, PUT THE KIDS BACK IN SCHOOL, THE MOTHERS HAVE NO JOBS TO GO BACK TO.

RESTAURANTS, THE BOUTIQUES, THE STORES ARE GONE FOREVER.

>> Hilary Rosen: I AM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT THINKS THAT ENTREPRENEURSHIP DOES REGENERATE.

WE HAVE HAD A, YOU KNOW, OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP LED BY WOMEN ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND SO, I DO THINK THAT IF YOU HAVE AN ECONOMY MOVING, IF PEOPLE HAVE MORE, YOU KNOW, MONEY IN THEIR POCKET, IF WE STIMULATE THE ECONOMY THROUGH THINGS LIKE FEDERAL SPENDING, WHICH ECONOMISTS HAVE NOW DECIDED DOES NOT HURT THE DEFICIT OR INTEREST RATES THE WAY THAT IT PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT, THAT YOU WILL FIND MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN AS WELL AND -- >> Bonnie: LET ME GIVE YOU THE LAST COUPLE MINUTES WE'VE GOT HERE.

BRIEFLY, RINA, YOUR TAKE ON THIS.

HOW DO WE GET THESE WOMEN OF COLOR BACK TO WORK?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: WELL, THIS MONTH IS BIG MONTH FOR ME BECAUSE 10 YEARS AGO, I LEFT MY JOB ON CAPITOL HILL TO START MY OWN CONSULTANCY.

AND FOR 10 YEARS NOW, AND VERY PROUD THAT I HAVE MADE IT.

I'VE HAD YEARS WHERE I FELT, USE LIKE LAST YEAR WHERE I HAD CLIENTS LEAVE ME, BUT I HAD TO DO OTHER THINGS TO KEEP MONEY COMING IN THE DOOR.

I'M A WOMAN OF PRIVILEGE BECAUSE I DO HAVE A CAREGIVER IS ABLE TO AUGMENT MY AT-HOME SITUATION WITH MY CHILDREN, BUT I HAVE HAD TO BECOME A HOMESCHOOL TEACHER.

IT'S BEEN VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE I KNEW THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN LIKE ME WITH YOUNG CHILDREN.

IT'S BEEN INCREDIBLY HARD TO DO VIRTUAL LEARNING, BE THE HOMESCHOOL TEACHER FOR THAT, AND THEN ALSO TAKE CARE OF WHATEVER YOU'RE DOING IN YOUR OWN SMALL BUSINESS.

AND I COME FROM A FAMILY OF SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS.

BUT I WAS SHOCKED TO READ, BONNIE, THE STATISTICS OF DECEMBER, NOT ONLY WERE ALL THE JOBS THAT WERE LOST BY THE AMERICAN ECONOMY, 140,000 JOBS, ALL OF THOSE SHED BY OUR U.S. ECONOMY IN DECEMBER.

100 PERCENT OF THOSE WERE WOMEN.

THAT IS A STORY WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT ENOUGH AND NEEDS TO WAKE PEOPLE UP, BECAUSE ALL THE POLITICAL CHAOS OF THE PAST FEW WEEKS HAS REALLY SKIRTED OVER THAT VERY NASTY FACT WENT BUT THE WORST PART OF THAT I BELIEVE IS THAT 154 BLACK WOMEN LEAVING THE LABOR FORCE ENTIRELY -- >> Bonnie: 154,000.

>> Rina Shah Bharara: ONE 54,000, 150 4K, I'M SORRY, MY SHORTHAND IS TERRIBLE.

BUT 154,000 BLACK WOMEN LEAVING THE LABOR FORCE ENTIRELY THAT BIGGER PAINS ME BECAUSE MEANWHILE, 200,000 WHITE WOMEN ACTUALLY RETURN TO THE WORKFORCE.

SO I'M A BIG BELIEVER.

ON AN OPTIMIST THAT ENTREPRENEURSHIP DOES REGENERATE, BUT IT WILL TAKE TIME BECAUSE I OFTEN TALK ABOUT HOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS FAILED SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS.

LOOK AT PPE.

WILL FROM THE PULSE SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION -- >> Bonnie: WEIGHT.

WHAT WE ARE OUT OF TIME ON THIS ONE.

SORRY.

BUT IF EVER THERE WERE IN AN ADMINISTRATION, AND SOMEDAY WE WILL HAVE A BLACK FEMALE PRESIDENT, A LATINA FEMALE PRESIDENT, ETC., LATIN ASK, IF EVER THERE WERE EVER AN ADMINISTRATION AS FAR AS AMERICAN HISTORY HAS BEEN CONSUMED, WITH KAMALA HARRIS AND THE NUMBER TWO JOB, AND YOU CAN SEE HER FINGERPRINTS ALL OVER THE SELECTIONS OF CABINET JOBS, SHE WILL BE THE WANT TO LOBBY FOR THE RESOURCES NECESSARY, WHEN WOULD HOPE, TO GET AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR WORKING AGAIN.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM.

PLEASE VISIT AT OUR PBS WEBSITE PAGE WHICH IS www.PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.