Support for Donnybrook is provided in part by Design Aire Heating and Cooling.

Well, if you don't know what fair is, you can't >> Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.

>> Thank you so much for joining us for Donnybrook.

Great to have you with us.

And as usual, too many topics, too little time.

So, we're going to get into that in just a moment.

But first, let's meet our panelists.

Starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Whis, Bill Mlelen, one of our founders from the Post Dispatch, Joe Holleman, also from the Post in STLtoday.com, and from the St.

Louis American, the guy who's entering the Media Hall of Fame this week, Alvin Reid.

>> Still hard to believe, let me tell you.

>> No, not hard to believe.

Long overdue.

>> All right.

Hey, and thanks uh to Marina Machina who is supplying the artwork on the mantle behind me.

We have a rotating art exhibit here at Nine PBS on the Donnybrook set.

Every month, another local artist provides some great work.

Hey, that's beautiful.

Thank you.

You can learn more at instaarina.

That's where you can contact her for more information about her great work.

Bill, we're going to start with you because uh in Jefferson City, both the uh House and the Senate approved sending to the voters a measure that would eliminate the income tax in the state of Missouri, which is right now the the highest level is 4.7%.

The idea is to go down to zero and then transfer uh that those taxing responsibilities to the sales tax.

So, it could be increasing the 4.22 225% sales tax.

Or it could tax things that aren't taxed already like landscaping, funeral services, advertising, uh what else?

Dry cleaning, things like that.

>> I think they're going to eliminate or they're going to exempt uh agriculture products, farmers, Roundup, and uh I think groceries will not be increased.

But what do you think?

>> I think it'll pass.

And the reason I think so is I'm very much against it >> and and I'm just kind of out of step with Missouri and we happily coexist, but if I think it's a terrible idea, I think the voters of Missouri are going to say this is what we should do and I think that we will >> Okay.

I Oh, I'm sorry.

>> No, I say I think I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong, but I think it'll pass.

>> Okay.

Um the apparently the realtors aren't down with this and I I guess they're saying that well we'll carve out a niche or something but they've already stated that that they're not with this.

They don't think it's a good idea.

Um St.

Charles County who just you know said like oh no we're not eliminating their what personal property tax.

Um quite frankly I think St.

Louis County, St.

Charles County and Jackson County and maybe throw in Cole County down by Columbia that might be enough to defeat it right there in a heavy turnout election.

But once you throw in like funeral parlors and like the the the butician industry haircuts and getting your hair done, that's formidable.

I'm I'm just telling you that that that's enough of an alliance that could defeat this.

And I think it will lose.

>> Well, I'm a natural blonde, so I mean, you think that affect me, >> but um I don't think it's gonna I don't think it has a chance.

I I I'm not very good at math, but this math doesn't math.

And when you talk about that kind of a a gap that has to be met um with with increasing either the use tax or the sales tax, if you can't make those two ends meet, plus I think we have such a we have such a history with the legislators in in Jefferson City of, you know, we cast our vote and they find a way to uh you know, basically erase our votes.

So, um, and and all these guard rails that they're talking about in terms of, you know, yeah, oh, no, don't worry.

Don't worry about when the Missouri legislature or frankly any legislature tells its citizens, don't worry about this.

We've got it.

Then I think we have you have to worry about it.

I'm sorry.

>> And I'm going to I'm going to walk the pure line on this one because I think it's two characteristics of Missurrians and it kind of confuses me.

One, we're conservative.

>> Yes.

So tax increases, eliminating taxes, lowering taxes, good thing.

We're also conservative, so change is also something that we're not sure of.

So I really think this is a coin flip, and I won't be surprised either way it goes.

I think it'll be close.

I don't think it's going to happen.

>> I think the ads in favor of it can will be very effective about this growth and, you know, this is what's holding us back.

And you know I I think I think Alvin that it will pass.

>> I think that what here another way to talk about go a roundabout way.

I would just if I were against it my commercials would say St.

Louis and Kansas City are going to be the biggest winners if you pass this uh getting rid of the income tax and then then rural Missouri will say like well I'm against it if Kansas City and St.

Louis are going to be >> I think a lot of seniors vote and a lot of seniors don't have income anymore right?

I mean, they have social security or they have some uh other investments, but that would be capital gains.

And the capital gains tax in Missouri was actually eliminated last year, which if you've got stock, it's a good time to sell your stock.

>> Well, that's one reason there's a hole in the budget.

I mean, yeah, that that led to this why we need money desperately.

But I'm saying if seniors don't have a lot of income, they're not going to be incentivized to increase their sales taxes if they're not going to get an income tax.

>> Exactly.

Right.

And this is Governor Kho's baby.

John Patterson's doing a lot of the heavy lifting, but this is Governor Kho's baby.

>> Well, what do you think about uh the announcement this week that that Armory data center proposal, Wendy, is a go.

And apparently there are a lot of restrictions being put on the developer who wants to put a $3 billion project at where the armory is on 6440 and the data center itself would actually go into the old famous bar warehouse, right?

>> Um $3 billion.

Lewis Rice, a local law firm, is one of the developers.

So is a group called Contour out of Las Vegas.

I don't know this organization, but um the city is assuring folks uh that they'll minimize the electric needs that they're going to regurgitate or recycle their water so they won't be ruining the water supply.

Uh overall, I just think that it's going to be a dead zone that's not going to attract businesses or residents.

So, I don't like it in that location.

But do you agree with the city that uh it's a good idea since it's going to generate $400 million in taxes over 10 years?

>> I think if you if you read what everybody is saying, if you if you read between the lines, it's a lot of we will we shall we we the plan is absolutely too.

I just don't think, as you have said before many times, that that it's that there's any way for it to cover all of the ground that we are being led to believe at this moment that it covers.

You know, I said earlier today that that we have 12 of these data centers in the St.

Louis area.

And while I understand this is a new generation, um I don't recall any magical pixie dust falling from the sky so far.

So, I I believe in this mayor.

I do believe in this mayor.

I believe that she is going to move heaven and earth to keep St.

Louis on the map and as healthy as we can possibly be.

So, um I'm I'm I'm cautiously optimistic but surprised.

>> I would even be happier with we will do something even if it wasn't.

But it's not even that.

We are expected to and we will try and in five years we're going to try to be doing this green stuff and in this month we're going to try.

They ain't going to do any of it.

They're going to do zero of that unless it's mandated, contractually stated, it's probably not going to happen.

In fact, I'm really convinced it's not going to happen.

If the mayor wanted to do something to get me with it, she'd have one check in one hand for the city of St.

Louis already written and one check for the school district.

And she said like, "Now, as soon as I go to the bank and these checks clear, then go ahead with that uh data center.

But until then, I'm not buying any of it."

You know what kind of freaks me out is that uh the city says, "Oh, this is going to be a lot of money for the city."

But uh I was watching your program when I was on vacation uh in March and Sarah said that the city's run a surplus for four straight years and it hasn't been able to spend its cranky money and it hasn't been able to spend its pandemic funds.

>> So why do we need more money?

>> I I mean you never you never turned out money.

>> Did you just ask why do we need more money?

Well, because of all the wonderful ideas we propose on this show, we need a whole lot of money to cover all the grand things that we think people ought to be doing.

I mean, I guess my question >> water manes for sure.

I agree with you.

>> Yeah, there you go.

Right there.

I mean, and I think the thing is is that first of all, that armory site, it's not like nobody's tried to do something there and it hasn't worked.

They had an event space there and people's cars are getting broke into.

We could always talk about police officers, but let's save that for yet another show.

But so it's it's not like, oh, nobody ever tried anything there.

They have, and they didn't work.

So now they're going to try this data center.

And I still, even though everybody loves to run past this, data center opposition to me is still a nimi issue.

And I don't care what anybody wants to tell me, right?

I'm not finding the folks from the city of St.

Louis running out to Franklin County to protest it or vice versa.

But there's nothing wrong with NIMBI >> as long as then nothing gets done.

But here's the thing.

Aren't there huge tracks of unused property in the city of St.

Louis like along the north riverfront where this could go and it wouldn't be near any current project.

>> I mean that's true.

I think I think there's hesitancy to put it on the north side.

Not for safety just because like I don't think the ultimate plan by the city of St.

Louis is to transform the north side.

I think it is to try to >> keep the lights on.

>> Yeah.

and and then slowly but steadily raised the north side.

>> Now, the teachers union supports this.

I mean, just because they think they're going to get the check that you're talking, >> right?

But I mean, until that check is written, I don't think a check >> But you're talking about you're talking about organizations like Lewis Rice.

These are not fly by night organizations.

So, when they talk >> No, but Elvin's right.

I mean, look at all the history where we were told the lottery, casino gaming, online gaming, they were all going to save the schools.

In fact, we had to vote for those because they were going to help the school children, >> right?

And then the formula gets changed and then this happens and then that happens.

I just don't think a the guarantee that it's going to generate $40 million in tax over 10 years based on what I mean that's I mean >> and we have historic droughts, right?

I still can't figure out how they can make any guarantees about about the the water supply and and and the you know the the release that the mayor's office sent out.

It's very clear that they want the city residents to feel like they are in control of what is going to be happening at these data centers.

Will the citizenry believe it?

>> Would you rather just do do nothing and and not get the possible money?

I'm I'm not >> I'm on her side.

>> I'm actually on her side.

>> Well, I don't even know what side I'm on.

>> Yeah.

I I I I feel like she she is risk she's taking this is a gamble.

This is a polit this is a huge political risk for her.

>> It could be the last.

But here's the gamble.

The gamble is is will it produce $40 million?

I can tell you how much that warehouse is producing now.

Nothing.

>> Okay.

Well, then I mean, so if you're saying, "Well, I'd rather do nothing and get zero money than maybe get 20 million, $30 million for schools and and city operations."

Let me ask you about the mayor who's in London this week.

Uh before she left, she was uh speaking uh in the state of the city address and protesters interrupted her for 20 minutes and then they were hauled away.

But she did admit that she's had uh some problems responding to the May 16th, 2025 tornado that hit North St.

Louis that hasn't that we haven't made the progress there that we wanted.

>> Right.

>> The other thing is she went to London on the trip that we talked about on last week's show and uh a photo of her and Bob Clark, who is kind of maybe one of the most prominent spokespeople in favor of data centers.

Uh there was a photo of the two of them having lunch together.

So North St.

Louis is having problems.

She's dining with a billionaire.

Is that photo gonna haunt her in the future?

You write a political column.

What do you think?

>> No, I don't think it'll haunt her.

I mean future near future.

Will people talk about it a couple of weeks?

>> Campaign ads.

>> Oh, saying what?

That you had lunch in London with a developer who was one of your big supporters?

>> Well, nothing's going on too.

Not the not not the two of them, which wouldn't bother me, but this was just a big conference, >> right?

You make it sound like they were sharing a romantic bottle of Keianti.

And you know, >> No, I'm not talking about the Patriots Coke.

I was thinking, hey, I was going to say I was You stole my No, no, >> you can make it be whatever you'd like to make.

>> I'm not making it anything.

I'm asking you and I said no.

You may as well say inquiring minds want to know.

>> Yeah.

Well, I had a long-term impact.

No, but I mean Bob Clark made it clear, okay, that he wanted Carrie Spencer to be the mayor.

And Bob Clark has made it clear that he's in favor of data centers.

And Bob Clark also made it clear that he really doesn't want to stand for anybody or anything getting in the way of his plans, which benefit first Bob Clark.

Okay.

So now you're in London on the day that this is announced and you're sitting there with Bob Clark.

Okay.

You know, released from the mayor that several of us got to like, you know, they didn't.

It's a total coincidence.

to say maybe it was, but it's a bad look and I'm not necessarily buying it.

I don't I don't You don't think it's a bad look or you do think it's a bad?

I do think it's a bad look.

>> Okay.

See, I don't think it's a bad look.

They didn't come up with a seating chart.

I mean, they this was this was an Well, this was an offic I mean, because they're from the St.

They're from They're both from the St.

Louis area.

>> All right.

And they just h those two happen to be just sat next to each other.

If you have any proof that that's not true.

>> I'm not saying bring it forward.

Otherwise, come on.

Come on.

Those are >> I'm not buying it.

That's all I >> That's fine.

You have been right.

More often than you want.

>> I I think we have to admit that in certain um areas, specifically the United States of America, data centers are now toxic.

And the mayor is going to be in a whole host of trouble by aligning herself with maybe the most prominent supporter of them.

We just saw in Fesus where all the incumbents were voted out, right?

Even those who voted for it.

>> Well, and I'm talking to people in Ferguson about the Emerson who live in Ferguson >> and they are go figure logical about it.

They said, "Well, I have some concerns, but I'd hate to see Ferguson pass on the benefit for that Emerson thing."

So this idea that because some people look you can take a photograph you can take a protest and you can make it sound like anything you want and in this day and age that outrage lasts 48 hours.

>> The funny thing about Fergus the Ferguson data center is on the edge of town right where Emerson was.

It's not in >> Okay.

All right.

The picture is one thing but if Midtown smells like diesel fuel 3 months before the election two and a half years from now >> has had all sorts of smells.

I'm just saying that that's what see that's one of those things that say like okay now if it does >> foul the air or water goes up in price more than it's already going to go up in price or things like that that's what would come back and actually >> yeah it's a gamble it's a gamble for sure if that's a great skull up this is not a sure thing you know being pro business weeds in a downtown area are even more toxic >> and I will let me add this real quick for the for the number of people and I I'll I'll point my finger at the north side.

For the number of people that actually voted in the last mayoral election, if I was Cara Spencer, I wouldn't worry about it because apparently people on the north side didn't care enough to get out and vote in a race that involved, you know, Tara Jones.

So, I don't think they're going to be so fired up be to get out and vote because a data center is in Midtown.

So, I don't think that will hurt her.

Alvin, let me ask you about the measure in front of uh the general assembly in Jeff City which would require English profici proficiency, excuse me, for uh truck drivers, people who uh operate vehicles with more than eight passengers who have their CDL.

And this I think would be for people with big uh equipment, maybe uh semitrs, some uh buses, vans, that sort of thing.

Do you Texas doesn't have this?

Missouri hadn't considered it, I don't think, until recently.

Do you see any problems that would say, "Hey, we need to make sure we have some sort of English test for our truck drivers."

>> Well, I think to get your CDL, I think it's it's you could wherever you get it, it's it's valid in whatever state you drive through.

So, I I mean, if it was a problem, I'm sure somebody would just go to Illinois and get it or go to Kansas and get it.

It's odd only then that the truck driving is one thing.

For some reason, I think if you're going to drive a school bus, I think you should be proficient because I think communication is very very important is if you're transporting children.

Now, how do you separate the two?

I don't know.

But that's what my thought >> and and you were talking about proficiency.

It's not fluency.

Right.

I mean, I I don't have a problem saying that people who are driving the heavy equipment should be able to read street signs or if there's an emergency and there's a temporary sign up about detours that they should be able to understand that or talk to police officers and and Steve Buts who was at Donny Bash, a state uh senator representative Democrat, he he took that attitude, too.

He said, "I don't have a problem with Well, I I don't understand why it's an issue.

>> I don't either >> for somebody operating a semi-tractor trailer on the interstate highways >> to have a proficiency in understanding English.

I don't I don't see why that's a terrible problem.

>> I don't think it's been a problem.

And if Texas, which is, you know, on the Mexican border, presumably has many drivers from south uh of the border, doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

And it hasn't presented itself as a big problem that I know of.

And you know, some people function very well.

Like Jo Deur, who was a coach of the Blues, was illiterate and he told everybody after >> he left his job, you know what?

I can't read.

But Charlie, in in in 10 years, if they show the show again, they'll all be these automatic uh vehicles driving themselves.

True.

And people say, "What's proficiency got to do with anything?"

>> I think it's just Trump's America going after immigrants and I kind of resent it, >> right?

I think that's the basis of it.

But but I'm thinking that okay, yes, is that the root where this is coming from?

Yes.

But at the same time, I could see if I had come up with this idea, you wouldn't say it was a Trump idea.

Um, and so I can't But the root of it is Yes.

The root of it is you but you but you think that if Joe or I if we go to France and we want a CDL, then that's not that's not a problem.

If we're not both, >> if you want to work in France, you have to if you want to live there, you have to pass uh the del something language fluency.

Is that wrong?

a B1 and then a B2 if you want to work there.

Is that wrong?

They gave an exemption to um George Clooney.

>> Okay.

>> I don't know why.

None of us are George Clooney.

Is that wrong?

What France does?

>> Well, I'm not in France.

>> NO.

NO.

All right.

I think you can live a good life in France and not speak the language because you know what?

You now have Google Translate.

You pull out your phone and you say in whatever language, "What's the problem here?"

And the person says something and oh, >> I I don't think you need to speak you shouldn't need to speak English to live here.

But I think driving a heavy vehicle, I'm not saying you got to start quoting saunas from Shakespeare, Charlie.

But and what is so offensive about when you move to a country and adopt this new country to try to at least learn a bit of their language?

Why is that an insult?

>> Because they do.

And there's not a there's not an issue.

And I think that the little guy from south of the border is getting trampled on right now by the federal government going to schools agree and trying to find the question.

That's not a good question.

That's not the question.

By the way, I'm not even a problem.

Last time I think all five of us are proficient in Spanish without even trying.

I bet you we're proficient in Spanish.

In other in other words, if we were going to think so, Elma, >> wait a minute.

Hold it.

To drive a car across Mexico, do it.

figure the signs out.

>> That's right.

>> I mean, if Good point, Alvin police officer, >> let's move on.

But if you're in Mexico and you're driving a busload of kids or a tractor trailer full of diesel fuel, that's a different thing.

All right, good.

Now, >> final topic, I think, for this segment ever.

Tell me how much time we have uh before the end of the show.

Okay, we've got time for this one.

>> Wendy Whis, >> uh there was a measure to increase the number of food trucks in the uh city of St.

Louis, but it stalled.

Yes.

Line of the night.

Line of the night.

>> I'm ready to I'm ready to haul hazardous material.

>> Mexico.

>> It's halted because the Cardinals are concerned that there will be food trucks near Ballpark Village and they want to control the scene there.

They in fact, tragically, a food truck operator was shot and killed this week in Ferguson.

>> Horrible.

>> So, they may not want the competition.

They may not want >> some sort of uh introduction to their area that they can't control.

Are they in the right or the wrong?

>> I think they are in the wrong.

And I know Rasheed Aldridge is is he >> he's the alderman down there, >> right?

He plays a part.

He plays a part in this unfolding uh novella, but uh but I I just feel like these food trucks really are hanging on by a thread.

they have sort of invested in the area.

You know, it's it's a great an enormous amount of goodwill I think on their part.

They have believed, you know, when we've said, "Hey, yeah, come down and help us, you know, boost up our night life and all this kind of stuff."

But for the Cardinals to whom every I mean, they have had some rough times lately, you know, from a club standpoint, but it's it's pretty much been Christmas Eve for as long as I've been alive for that baseball team.

Okay.

It's been it's been just a lot of large s on the part of this community.

So to you know tell these little food these commercial food truck no we can't control you.

So we want you on uh we want you on Olive Street.

>> This is the same ballpark village that drove Mike Shannis out of business and some other restaurants down there.

So you know I'm kind of like but no leave these food trucks alone.

>> Well and I have a solution.

the board of alderman stand up and tell the brewery that they're going to pass this no matter what.

And let's see how that goes.

There's >> You don't mean the brewery?

>> Well, the ballpark village, the Cardinal, excuse me.

Okay.

I I mean, I still got them owned by the brewery >> by the by the Cardinals.

Stand up to them.

Tell them you got alderman there.

They can pass this.

You know, I I go ahead.

I want to see these food trucks.

They they inter interfere with the brick and mortar restaurants.

But as long as everybody says that's fine, I don't see why should we should make an exception for Ballpark Village.

>> But I didn't understand the reluctance on the part of like why was Sulard I mean why would Sulard be upset about the presence of of the food trucks?

>> Well, I guess you could park one down there in the middle of like Russell and Guyire or whatever.

>> It's it's competition.

>> I I DON'T HAVE a problem with it.

I'm just trying to amp my daughter says uh that they have them outside City Field for the Mets and outside Yankee Stadium for the Yankees.

You can also buy peanuts, hot dogs, hamburgers right outside of the stadium.

Now, I don't know if the Cardinals get a cut of that or whatever, >> but there's not there's not a problem.

The alderman just go ahead and pass the bill.

>> But here's the thing.

They may not like people they can't control operating within the boundaries of their business.

And I can understand that in downtown St.

Louis because there have been problems with some of these food carts on Washington Avenue.

>> And I think there's arguments.

I guess what I'm saying is is that the people who want these food trucks, the problem is not the ball team.

The alderman can pass it.

>> Okay.

So, let him go ahead.

Joe, your comments, I think, will be the last ones for this segment.

Let's go to the uh mailbag and see what folks had to say about last week's show.

This is in response to your continuing discussions on data centers.

One point I'd like to make.

Has anyone given any consideration as to what happens 20 years down the road when the technology has changed and the masters of the universe don't need these giant data centers?

One thing we know for certain is that technology will always be changing.

Steve Shre St.

Louis County.

Thank you, sir.

We also heard from Tim Ngi of Wildwood Great Donnie Bash regarding location of county offices.

It's surprising the panel thinks that Northwest Plaza isn't central enough.

The two sites are only four miles apart, both on Lindberg.

I can drive that in a lot less time than the panelist took to complain about it.

Thank you.

And Larry Klein Kemper wrote from South County.

Joe and Bill so reminded me of Archie Bunker and his liberal son-in-law.

When discussing police entering public schools, I had to laugh.

Never bad thing to be compared to Carol Okconer and Rob Reiner, right?

Hey, you can write us care of 9PBS 63108.

Don't forget those emails.

Donnie Brook at 9PBS.org.

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Don't miss a single episode.

And for six or so weeks, we'll be in the traditional place as well as in the new location.

Well, as it turns out, we're not going to have a gospel hall of fame and museum on Kings Highway.

Why?

Well, we'll discuss that on Last Call.

We hope you join us.

Congratulations to Alvin Reed, who this week is going into the media hall of fame.

Congratulations, Alvin.

>> Thank you.

And we'll see you and everybody else next week.

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