"DONNYBROOK" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF "DONNYBROOK."

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ABOARD AND LOTS TO TALK ABOUT.

SO LET'S GET RIGHT TO THE INTRODUCTIONS, STARTING WITH 50% OF THE JENNIFER WENDY SHOW ON KTRS, WENDY WIESE, ALONG WITH BILL MCCLELLAN, 100% OF HIS COLUMN AND THE NUMBER ONE CHICAGO CUBS FAN WITH US FROM STL TODAY.COM AND ST. LOUIS POST DISPATCH.

RAY HARTMANN FROM ROSS STORY.COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES AND THE BIG 550KTRS.

AND NATIONAL CHAMPION AND ALUM OF -- WHAT CITY IS K.U.

FROM?

>> THAT WOULD BE LAWRENCE.

WE ARE THE UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS JAY HAWKS, NOT THE KANSAS CITY JAY HAWKS, THANK YOU PRESIDENT OF THE NCAA.

>> HAVING NEVER MADE A MISTAKE, I AM SYMPATHETIC TO THOSE THOUGH OCCASIONALLY DO.

CONGRATULATIONS TO AMY SHAW, OUR NINE PBS C.E.O.

AND PRESIDENT WHO IS NOW GOING TO BE ENTERED INTO THE ST. LOUIS MEDIA HALL OF FAME, SO CONGRATULATIONS, AMY.

THERE SHE IS.

WE'RE ALL PROUD OF YOU.

AND LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT CELEBRATION.

AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE SAD TO ANNOUNCE THAT MICHAEL NIDORF, THE LONG-TIME C.E.O.

OF CENTENE, SOMEONE WEIGH TALKED A LOT ABOUT ON THIS PROGRAM, HAS DIED.

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, HE TOOK A COMPANY FROM NOTHING TO WHAT IS NOW THE LARGEST PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY IN ST. LOUIS, NUMBER 24 ON THE FORTUNE 500, THE CENTENE NAME IS ALL OVER ST. LOUIS, A GREAT BENEFACTOR, SO OUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE WITH HIS FAMILY, HIS WIFE AND SON.

WE'RE GOING TO START WITH YOU, ALVIN, TONIGHT, AS WE TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF MISSOURI IS IN A RARE POSITION BECAUSE IT HAS MAYBE MORE BY THE END OF JUNE THAN TWO AND A HALF BILLION DOLLARS IN SURPLUS.

SO IT'S A NICE POSITION FOR LAWMAKERS IN JEFFERSON CITY TO BE IN, BUT THEY CAN'T DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

SOME WANT TO PUT IT IN THE A RAINY DAY FUND, OTHERS WANT A $500 TAX CREDIT FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO FILE TAXES, SOME WANT IT FOR TEACHERS, OTHERS FOR IN-HOMEWORKERS.

WHAT'S YOUR OPINION?

>> FIRST, AND REALLY IMPORTANT, BILL, DON'T PUT YOUR HAT ON THE TABLE BECAUSE MY WIFE WILL COME THROUGH THE TV CAMERA.

>> THAT IS BAD LUCK, THAT'S RIGHT.

ALL RIGHT.

OKAY.

NO SHOES ON THE TABLE EITHER.

YOU'RE A CUBS FAN, CAN'T TAKE HIM ANYWHERE.

MAYBE THAT'S WHY WE DIDN'T WIN FOR 100 YEARS.

>> TOO MANY HATS ON THE TABLE.

>> SO HONESTLY, ALL RIGHT, AS MUCH AS THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS WE COULD PUT SOME MONEY TOWARD, I AM ONE THAT FOR SOME REASON LIKE, THE RAINY DAY FUND, LET'S KEEP A SIZABLE AMOUNT HERE, AT REST FOR A YEAR.

LET'S SEE WHERE WE ARE A YEAR FROM NOW OR WHATEVER.

I DON'T THINK THERE SHOULD BE A HUGE RUSH TO SPEND ALL THIS MONEY.

THAT BEING SAID, I'M NOT FOR THE 500-DOLLAR PER PERSON KIND OF GIVING AWAY EITHER.

SO THERE'S GOT TO BE SOME HAPPY MEDIUM.

BUT I'M NOT MAD AT HIM FOR JUST INVENTING REASONS TO HIT THIS FUND.

>> IF YOU THINK OF IT LIKE A HOUSE, AND PLEASE FORGIVE THE SIMPLICITY OF MY ARGUMENT HERE, WE HAVE TO FIRST WORK ON SOME CURB APPEAL.

TRULY.

IF ANYBODY IS TRAVELING THROUGH THIS STATE, I WOULD JUST KEEP TRAVELING AS FAST AS MY LITTLE WHEELS WOULD CARRY ME.

THIS IS, AS CHARLIE HAS POINTED OUT THROUGH HIS PROGRAM, WE HAVE BECOME A DUMP.

OUR ROADWAYS, OUR HIGHWAYS, OUR BY-WAYS ARE DISGRACEFUL.

SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE TAKEN CARE OF I HAVE DISLOCATED MY SHOULDER DRIVING THROUGH SOME OF THESE POTHOLES AS WELL.

SO WE COULD MAKE A FEW COSMETIC ALTERATIONS, AND THEN WE'LL DEAL WITH THE PLUMBING AND ALL OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH AS HOMEOWNERS.

BUT I THINK SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE VERY IMMEDIATELY, I THINK THEY SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO BE TAKEN CARE OF IMMEDIATELY.

>> I LOOK AT IT A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY.

FIRST ALL WE'RE BEING GOVERNED BY PEOPLE WHO HATE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING.

AND STATE GOVERNMENT HAS CERTAIN FUN DA MEANT CONSTITUTION -- FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

ONE OF THEM IS EDUCATION.

IT'S THE FIRST ONE.

IT HAS A ROLE TO PLAY IN HEALTH CARE, MEDICAID EXPANSION, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THE IDEA THAT WE ARE THINKING ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN AT LEAST STARTING TO CORRECT THE FACT THAT WE'RE 50TH IN THE STATE OR HAVE BEEN IN OUR AVERAGE PAY FOR STATE WORKERS, WHICH IS IN COMPETITION WITH OTHER STATES, THAT WE'RE NEAR 50 IN EDUCATION AND CORRECTIONS AND SO FORTH.

I THINK THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO GO CRAZY, BUT MY PARSONS BUDGET WAS SURPRISINGLY A REASONABLE STARTI POINT, COMING FROM A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, AND HE CAN'T EVEN GET THESE ANTIGOVERNMENT REPUBLICANS TO START WITH HIS PROPOSAL.

SO I THINK WE'VE GOT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY, AND KEEP IN MIND OTHER STATES ARE GETTING SURPLUSES TOO, PART OF IT FROM THE INFRASTRUCTURE EFFORT, SOME OF IT FROM COVID MONEY.

SO THEY'VE GOT TO UNDERSTAND, THEY'VE GOT FUNDAMENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES TO TEACHERS AND OTHERS IN THE STATE, AND STUDENTS OBVIOUSLY, I THINK IT NEEDS TO START THERE.

>> AT LEAST WE SHOULD DISCUSS IT.

THE IDEA OF GIVING EVERYBODY $500 AND JUST BEING DONE WITH THE WHOLE THING, THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME.

I'M NOT SURE IF BEAUTIFICATION IS THE NUMBER ONE THING OR EDUCATION.

BUT WE SHOULD AT LEAST DISCUSS IT INSTEAD OF JUST GIVING THE MONEY AWAY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, BILL, AND I AGREE, I THINK NURSING HOMEWORKERS DESERVE MORE MONEY, I THINK TEACHERS, THEY'RE THE LOWEST PAID IN THE COUNTRY, THEY NEED MORE MONEY.

BUT WHY IS IT WRONG FOR THE STATE TO GIVE OUT $500, BUT WHEN MAYOR JONES DID IT OR PRESIDENT BIDEN DID IT IT WAS OKAY TO SEND OUT CHECKS TO EVERYBODY?

>> I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS VERY SMART FOR MAYOR JONES OR PRESIDENT BIDEN TO GIVE MONEY AWAY WITHOUT ANY, VERY FEW SAFE GUARDS.

THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT ON THE NATIONAL STUFF AND A LITTLE BIT WITH MAYOR JONES.

YOU HAD TO BE POOR TO GET THE MONEY.

BUT I THINK WE CAN DO BETTER THAN JUST -- >> OKAY.

WE'VE GOT TO MOVE ALONG.

>> IT'S NOT JUST LAWMAKERS WHO HATE MAKING LAWS.

I THINK THEY SEEM TO BE TERRIFIED OF MAKING DECISIONS.

THEY ARE AVERSE TO DECISION MAKING.

>> WE HAVE A COUPLE MORE WEEKS, WE'LL BE ABLE TO DISCUSS THIS ON A FUTURE OCCASION.

>> OKAY.

>> LET'S MOVE ON, ONLY IN THE INTEREST OF TIME.

I WANT TO GET ONTO THE NEXT TOPIC, BECAUSE THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IS UP AGAINST THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AGAIN.

BUT HIRES THE CASE THIS TIME.

MARCH 19, A COUPLE OF POLICE OFFICERS CLAIM THAT THEIR CAR WAS ALMOST CARJACKED BY A GUY IN SOUTH ST. LOUIS.

SO THEY PRESSED CHARGES, ARMED CRIMINAL ACTION, FLEEING A POLICE OFFICER.

IT WENT TO THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND NO CHARGES WERE PRESSED.

AND TODAY, ARE RATHER THIS WEEK ON TUESDAY, THE CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER FOR KIM GARDNER HAD A PRESS CONFERENCE.

AND USING HEAVILY REDACTED VIDEO, NOT SHARING ALL OF IT, SAID THIS SHOWS THAT THE CRIME WAS NOT COMMITTED AND WE'RE DROPPING ALL OF THE CHARGES.

MEANWHILE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MEMORY, BOTH POLICE UNIONS HAVE COME TO THE AID AND TO THE DEFENSE OF A POLICE OFFICER SAYING NO NO NO, IF YOU SHARE ALL THE VIDEO YOU'LL SEE THAT INDEED THERE WAS ARMED CRIMINAL ACTION HERE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK WE'VE GOT THE BIGGEST STORY IS THAT NATIONALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY WE GOT COVERAGE ABOUT A CARJACKING THAT ACTUALLY DID NOT HAPPEN, OKAY.

AND PEOPLE, AS IF WE NEEDED IT AS A COMMUNITY, WE'VE GOT HEADLINES, THERE WAS ONE IN THE DAILY MAIL, WOKE PRESS PROSECUTOR WON'T BRING CHARGES AGAINST CARJACKERS.

AND IN FACT, THE IDEA THAT POLICE CARS ARE GETTING CARJACKING IS A BAD LOOK, AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

>> WE'RE NOT SURE OF THAT.

>> WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

>> NO, EXCUSE ME, THEY DID NOT GET CARJACKED.

THE QUESTION IS -- >> THEY CLAIM THEY WERE ATTEMPTED CARJACKING.

>> THAT'S NOT HOW THE STORY WAS PLAYED.

ANY WAY HERE'S THE DEAL.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS, AND I'M NOT SAYING WHO IS LYING OR ANYTHING, I DO THINK -- >> YES YOU ARE.

>> I'M SAYING THEY OVERCHARGED THIS CASE, WHICH COPS DO ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS.

I THINK THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY HANDLED IT PROPERLY AND THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY REACTED TO ONCE AGAIN BEING ATTACKED IN A CASE WHERE THEY DID HANDLE THIS PROPERLY.

AND THEY COULD NOT HAVE PROVEN A CARJACKING CASE.

>> BUT YOU SAY THAT WITH SO LITTLE OF THE VIDEO -- >> I SAW THE VIDEO.

>> YOU SAW WHAT WAS RELEASED.

THEY ARE SAYING THAT THERE IS MORE THAT WOULD CHANGE THE STORY, AND THE PERSPECTIVE.

SO THAT TO ME IS, IT'S WAY TOO EARLY.

>> I THINK THEY OVERCHARGED THE CASE.

>> JUST KEEPS COMING TO THIS, HOW DID IT COME TO THIS, THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

ALL PARTIES INVOLVED CAN'T SIT IN A ROOM?

SERIOUSLY, I DON'T WANT TO CHARGE THIS PERSON, AND WE KNOW THERE'S VIDEO AND YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD AND I'M THE WORST PROSECUTOR EVER, ON AND ON AND ON.

THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE CITY, THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

BUT YET NOBODY CAN FIND ANY KIND OF HIGH ROAD BETWEEN THAT OFFICE AND THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND BOTH PARTIES ARE RESPONSIBLE, I'M NOT BLAMING JUST ONE.

ALSO BOTH UNIONS CAME TOGETHER IN DEFENSE OF THE POOR OFFICER THAT HAD TO DEAL WITH JOE -- >> THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT BECAUSE THAT VIDEOTAPE WAS RELEASED WHEN JOEY V. WAS PULLED OVER FOR GOING 76 IN A 60, THEY RELEASED THE TAPE.

SO WHY DON'T THE POLICE AND CIRCUIT ATTORNEY RELEASE ALL THE VIDEO THEY HAVE?

>> I AGREE.

AND SOMEONE LIKE ME, I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO JUST TENDS NOT TO BELIEVE KIM GARDNER, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THE POLICE ARE GUILTY OF CRIMES THEMSELVES SOMETIMES, I JUST DON'T TRUST KIM GARDNER.

BUT IF THERE'S A VIDEO, LET US SEE THE WHOLE VIDEO, AND THEN MAKE UP OUR MINDS.

>> RIGHT.

>> MAYBE MISS GARDNER IS TELLING THE COMPLETE TRUTH, MAYBE THE POLICE ARE.

WE DON'T KNOW.

>> THE PERCEPTION IS THAT THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY IS ONLY INTERESTED IN PROSECUTING POLICE OFFICERS.

>> A MAJORITY OF POLICE FEEL THAT WAY.

BUT THIS IS ONE OF THOSE, IN HER OFFICE, YOU KNOW, WHY LIE WHEN THE TRUTH WILL SUFFICE.

YOU'RE GOING OUT OF YOUR WAY TO CREATE THE SITUATION THAT ULTIMATELY CAN MAKE YOU LOOK A LOT WORSE THAN THE POLICE.

SO I THINK HE'S DEALING THE TRUTH.

>> ALVIN'S POINT IS RIGHT BUT IT'S FOUR YEARS OLD.

THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE DAY KIM GARDNER WAS FIRST ELECTED THE FIRST TIME ON A CAMPAIGN PROMISE TO REFORM POLICE.

AND THEY'VE AT LEAST IN HER TELLING, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ACCORDING TO HER, MAYBE SHE'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH, WAS THE ISSUE OF WHETHER THEY WOULD EVEN HELP PROSECUTE THE GREITENS CASE WHICH LED TO ALL KINDS OF STUFF.

>> THEY DENIED THAT.

THE CHIEF OF POLICE DENIED IT AND I BELIEVE -- >> I'M JUST SAYING IT GOES BACK -- >> I WANT TO ASK YOU, BILL, ABOUT A STORY THAT WAS IN PRO REPUBLICA, WRITTEN BY ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES JEREMY KOHLER, AND HE TOOK AT LOOK AT WHAT ARE CALLED JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDES, THAT IS WHEN YOU SHOOT SOMEBODY WHO IS COMMITTING A DANGEROUS CRIME AND THE HOMICIDE IS JUSTIFIED, AND THEY'RE NOT COUNTED IN THE CITY'S HOMICIDE TOTAL.

SO HE SAYS IN THE 10 YEARS PRECEDING 2019, THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AVERAGED SIX, AND THEN IN 2020 WENT UP TO 17, AND THEN 21, OR RATHER 22 IN 2021.

MEANWHILE, KANSAS CITY WHICH HAS ALMOST 200,000 MORE PEOPLE THAN WE DO, ZERO.

CHICAGO, WHICH HAS NINE TIMES THE POPULATION OF THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, ZERO.

SO SOME PEOPLE ARE WONDERING, ARE THE JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDES BEING INFLATED BECAUSE IT MAKES OUR HOMICIDE NUMBERS LOOK BETTER?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

IT SHOWS THAT THE UNIFORM STANDARDS OF REPORTING AREN'T UNIFORM AT ALL.

DIFFERENT CITIES DO IT DIFFERENT WAYS.

BUT EVEN IF YOU TOOK THOSE 222 HOMICIDES AND ADDED THEM ON, THE JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDES AND ADDED THEM ONTO THE REGULAR HOMICIDES, WE STILL HAD A DECREASE LAST YEAR.

THERE WAS A BAD YEAR, LIKE IT ALWAYS IS, BUT IT WAS MUCH BETTER THAN THE PREVIOUS YEAR.

SO I THOUGHT IT WAS AN INTERESTING STORY, BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANY REAL SIGNIFICANCE OR ANY DARK PLANNING BY ANYBODY ON THAT.

>> I AGREE.

>> I'LL DEFEND THE POLICE ON THIS ONE BECAUSE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE HAVE THIS NARRATIVE AND THOUGH ONE WANTS TO MINIMIZE THE CRIME PROBLEM IN ST. LOUIS, EVERYBODY GETS IT.

IT'S A TRAGEDY AND IT CONTINUES.

BUT THERE IS ALWAYS A FIXATION ON THIS HOMICIDE NUMBER, AS IF IT WAS THE ONLY CRIME PROBLEM.

AND THERE'S ACTUALLY OVERALL VIOLENT CRIME IS A MUCH MORE COMMON, WE DON'T EVEN KEEP SCORE OF THAT.

BILL IS RIGHT, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF UNEVEN REPORTING THAT MAKES IT HARD TO COMPARE CITIES.

AND I THINK YOU CAN'T BLAME THE POLICE, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T GIVE THEM CREDIT WHEN IT GOES DOWN, AND I JUST THINK THAT WE FIXATE TOO MUCH ON HOMICIDES.

>> THERE WERE OTHER CITIES THAT HAD SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES.

THIS STATE, IT TRICKLES DOWN, WE GOT A GO FOR YOUR GUNMEN TALLITY, AND IF THE POLICE ARE LIKE THEY THREW DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET AND ONE OF THEM ENDED UP DEAD, AND THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE AND POLICE SAID JUSTIFIABLE, SHAMEFUL BUT JUSTIFIABLE.

>> I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT, BUT DON'T FORGET KANSAS CITY IS IN THIS STATE TOO AND THEY HAD ZERO.

I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT THE POLICE OFFICERS THEMSELVES HAD RECOMMENDED THAT THEY BE CLASSIFIED AS HOMICIDE, BUT THEN WHEN IT GOT TO CERTAIN LEVELS OF THE DEPARTMENT AND THEN THERE WAS CONSULTATION WITH THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE THEY REVERSED IT AND WENT TO JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE, AND THE EXPERTS INTERVIEWED BY KOHLER SAID NO NO, IT'S WHATEVER THE POLICE SAID NOT WHAT THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY SAYS.

IF THE POLICE OFFICER SAYS IT'S A HOMICIDE, THEN IT'S LISTED AS A HOMICIDE FOR THE POLICE ASSISTANCE.

>> OKAY, LOTS OF STUFF HAPPENS BETWEEN I'M POLICE OFFICER ON THE STREET AND TO WHERE IT GETS TO THE POINT WHERE SOMEBODY IS GOING TO GET PROSECUTED, GOES THROUGH ALL KINDS OF CHANNELS, BECAUSE ALL KIND OF PEOPLE WOULD BE IN JAIL RIGHT NOW IF THE POLICE COULD JUST SAY, HEY -- >> IF WE COMPARE OURSELVES TO KANSAS CITY, REALLY?

I DON'T THINK WE CAN.

WE'RE IN THE SAME STATE, BUT I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE SIMILARITIES END.

>> I READ THE KANSAS CITY STAR A LOT, AND THERE'S PLENTY OF CRIME IN KANSAS CITY, AND I DON'T KNOW AGAIN THE WHOLE A IS THE TICK.

I WILL A-- STATISTIC.

WE'VE GOT TO STOP THINKING OF OURSELVES AS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE THERE'S A NATURAL TENSION, I AGREE IT'S OUT OF HAND, BUT THERE'S AN ABSOLUTE NATURAL TENSION BETWEEN POLICE DEPARTMENTS AT LARGE AND CIRCUIT ATTORNEYS -- >> I DISAGREE.

I DISAGREE.

>> THEY HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES.

CIRCUIT ATTORNEYS HAVE TO BE, PROSECUTING ATTORNEYS HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

AND POLICE OFFICERS CAN -- >> THIS IS A INDICATION HERE, A CASE THERE.

>> THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY'S -- >> I'M JUST SAYING THERE ARE PLACES WHERE THEY MIGHT BE PROGRESSIVE, CONSERVATIVE, WHATEVER.

BUT LISTEN, NONE OF US ARE GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL IF WE CAN'T WORK TOGETHER.

THE CITY WON'T, I WON'T, CHIEF.

BETTER FIGURE OUT A WAY TO WORK TOGETHER OR WE'RE BOTH GOING TO FAIL, AND THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, AND I DON'T THINK IT REALLY DOES GO ON A LOT.

>> AND WESLEY BELL IS A PROGRESSIVE PROSECUTOR AND THERE MIGHT BE NOT A LOT OF LOVE BETWEEN BELL'S OFFICE AND THE POLICE, BUT THEY'RE NOT AT CONSTANT WAR.

>> A QUICK WORD FOR WESLEY, HE WENT UP TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DUMPING MATTRESSES AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT DEAL, SO HATS OFF TO HIM.

ALVIN, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT CULVER HOUSE, IT'S NEXT TO POWELL HALL IN DEL MAR.

BUT THE ST. LOUIS SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA HAS AN EXPANSION PLAN AND THAT PLAN INCLUDES GETTING RID OF CULVER HOUSE.

NOW, THERE ARE PRESERVATIONISTS FROM LANDMARKS AND WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY WHO SAY THAT WILL BE A GREAT ARCHITECTURAL LOSS FOR THE REGION, AND OUR BUILDING HERITAGE.

WHAT SAY YOU?

>> IT PAINS ME TO SAY IT, BUT IT'S GOT TO GO.

IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE FOOT PRINT OF THE SYMPHONY AND IT WANTS TO EXPAND AND IT'S GOING TO HELP A LOT OF KIDS AND PEOPLE THAT NORMALLY DON'T, AREN'T INVOLVED WITH THE SYMPHONY.

AND I DON'T WANT TO BE THE SIM THE ANY P.R.

PERSON, BUT THIS ONE HAS GOT TO GO.

>> WRECKING BALL?

>> PRETTY MUCH.

>> IS HE THE ONE WHO WANTS TO -- >> YES.

>> BUT THAT JEOPARDIZES ITS PLACE ON THE NATIONAL REGISTER OF HISTORIC PLACES.

CAN THE SYMPHONY NOT WORK AROUND CULVER HOUSE?

>> I'M LIKE ALVIN EXCEPT I THINK IT'S GOT TO STAY.

>> I LIKE STEVE SMITH'S IDEA OF TAKING IT AND MOVING IT, AND I KNOW ANDREW WEIL SAYS IT LOSES ITS SENSE OF PLACE, BUT THE BUILDING IS STILL INTACT.

WE CAN STILL LOOK AT THE BUILDING AND THINK, HEY, THAT'S A PRETTY NEAT -- >> BUT IT COULDN'T BE AN ANNEX?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK IT WOULD BE NICE FOR THE SYMPHONY TO FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO.

>> I THINK IT'S, URL IT'S IN A PLACE WHERE IT JUST HAS TO GO, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> I KNOW.

I FEEL SO BAD ABOUT IT.

BUT ALSO, ONCE AGAIN, HERE'S THIS HOUSE BEEN SITTING HERE ALL THESE YEARS, AND YOU KNEW THE DAY WAS COMING THAT THE SYMPHONY IS GOING TO WANT TO MOVE THIS ON, SO WHY THE SUDDEN -- >> BECAUSE A WRECKING BALL IS FOREVER.

CAN'T GO BACK.

>> WENDY IS RIGHT.

ARCHITECTURAL HERITAGE IS ONE THING NO OTHER CITY CAN CLAIM.

>> THE CHURCH THEY MOVED -- >> WHAT ABOUT THE STACKTON HOUSE, THAT'S RIGHT OVER THERE, TOO, ISN'T IT?

>> YES.

>> CHARLIE IS RIGHT.

I'M A BUILDING HUGGER, AND I THINK ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN LIKE THAT, YOU NEVER REALLY REGRET HAVING SAID DON'T TEAR IT DOWN.

AND I THINK WE DO ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT ST. LOUIS, WE'RE NOT ANCIENT ROME, EVERYTHING IS A COUPLE HUNDRED YEARS OLD, BUT WE ARE STILL -- >> EXCEPT FOR THE BALLPARK.

>> WE ARE STILL, WE SHOULDN'T UNDERESTIMATE THAT PART OF OUR CHARM.

>> INDEED.

BILL MCCLELLAN, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A PLAN BY MAYOR JONES TO CHARGE FOR VOLUNTARY REPARATIONS TO THOSE WHO DESCENDED FROM THE ENSLAVED.

SHE HAS SAID THAT JUST TO START THE CONVERSATION SHE'D LIKE TO GET VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTIONS TO KICK THIS EFFORT OFF, AT LEAST THE DISCUSSION AND THE DIALOGUE WILL TAKE PLACE ALONG WITH THAT.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, I WOULD NEVER MAKE A MORAL ARGUMENT AGAINST REPARATIONS.

BUT THE REALITY OF IT IS IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

I WISH THAT FORMER PRESIDENT OBAMA OR SOMEBODY WOULD REALLY BE IN CHARGE OF THE DEMOCRATS AND EXPLAIN TO MAYOR JONES AND OTHERS, LOOK, THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

ALL IT DOES IS IT GIVES AMMUNITION TO OUR ENEMIES AND IT'S GOING TO BE A LITTLE CRAWL AT THE BOTTOM OF FOX NEWS ABOUT THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AND LOS ANGELES AND SOME OTHER CITY, PASS SOMETHING IN FAVOR OF REPARATIONS.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

I THINK THERE'S SO MANY OTHER WAYS THAT WE CAN HELP AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, YOU KNOW, AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, QUOTAS, HELP PEOPLE GET JOBS.

THAT ARE REALISTIC AND POSSIBLE.

AND I DON'T THINK REPARATIONS ARE POSSIBLE.

>> THAT'S EASY FOR YOU TO SAY BECAUSE YOU WON'T BE GETTING ANY MONEY.

>> I AGREE WITH BILL.

AND IT'S JUST, YOU KNOW, THE ENERGY COULD GO ELSEWHERE.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY OTHER THAN THAT.

I DO AGREE WITH YOU ALL IT DOES IS JUST RILE PEOPLE UP OVER REALLY OVER NOTHING.

>> DID I READ THIS STORY CORRECTLY, THAT THEY WOULD TAKE SOME OF THE VOLUNTARY REPARATIONS AND MA PLY THEM -- APPLY THEM TO REDUCED WATER BILLS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

UTILITY BILLS?

THIS IS, THE QUESTION OF SLAVERY AND THE IMPLICATIONS OF SLAVERY SHOULD BE MUCH DEEPER THAN APPLYING SOME MONEY TO SOMEBODY'S UTILITY BILL.

>> THAT'S REAL HELP AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE CAN DO, LIKE WITH ALL THIS MONEY WE'RE GETTING FROM THE FEDS, WE CAN HELP PEOPLE WITH THEIR UTILITY BILLS.

>> SO THAT KIND OF REPARATIONS?

>> IF YOU GAVE IT A FANCY NAME, THIS IS YOUR REPARATION REDUCTION, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT SOUNDS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, ALTHOUGH I THINK IF I WERE NOT IN RHINE FOR REPARATION AND I HAD A HIGH ELECTRICITY BILL, I WOULD BE KIND OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, REALLY?

>> I THINK IT FEELS LIKE WE'RE LEVYING A DIFFERENT PLANET BECAUSE HALF THE COUNTRY IS KIND OF WHITE WASHED OUR HISTORY TO PRETEND LIKE SLAVERY DIDN'T EVEN EXIST.

>> THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

>> WELL, BEING PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THIS NONSENSE ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY, TRYING TO DENY ONE EXTREME, AND I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY A BETTER MIDDLE GROUND TO BE FOUND.

>> IF IT'S VOLUNTARY, I THINK THAT'S THE KEY WORD HERE, THAT THE MAYOR HAS COME UPON, SHE HASN'T SAID THIS IS GOING TO BE A GOVERNMENT FUNDED PROGRAM.

>> BUT SHE WANTS THIS TO SERVE AS A MOD TOMORROW THE FEDS.

>> I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH WHAT SHE'S DOING, I DON'T THINK IT'S -- >> WE MIGHT BE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN SOME PAR BECAUSE IN THE SECOND HALF OF THIS PROGRAM WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING TO BENEFIT LIPS AND DICK WISE, AND A.KISNER WHO ARE GOING TO DISCUSS WHAT SHOULD THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE DESCENDED FROM SLAVE HOLDERS DO AS SOME SORT OF PERSONAL RECOME PENCE, IF ANYTHING.

>> BY THE WAY, WHEN I, I THINK IT MAKES SENSE -- I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THE SPIRIT.

I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THE SPIRIT OF WHAT SHE'S TRYING TO DO.

I THINK WE'RE IN SUCH A STRANGE PLACE ON THESE KINDS OF ISSUES, IT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE.

>> "WALL STREET JOURNAL" HAD A STORY ON GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY WHICH HAD ABOUT 270 SLAVES BACK IN THE DAY, SO NOW THEY HAVE CONVENED A COMMISSION TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO.

>> AND POINTED OUT THE THINGS THEY WANTED TO CHANGE, LIKE THE NAME OF THE THEOLOGICAL SCHOOL.

>> AND GIVING MONEY TO SCHOLARSHIPS, TO THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAIFERS THEY CAN FIND, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT IDEA.

>> WELL, KENT FINEBERG IS A PROFESSOR AT GEORGETOWN, HE ALSO SERVED AS THE FELLOW WHO HANDED OUT THE REPARATIONS AFTER 9/11, AND HE SAID BEFORE ALL THIS BEGAN, HE GOES, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, ALL I KNOW, IT'S GOING TO CREATE DIGS CORD.

AND IT DID.

TURNS OUT EVEN THOSE WHO REPRESENTED THE SIDE SEEKING THE REPARATIONS CANNOT AGREE ON WHAT THE ACTION SHOULD BE.

>> THAT WHO BE THE FIRST THING.

IF SOMEBODY VOLUNTARILY GAVE $20 MILLION TOMORROW, OKAY, YOU THINK THAT WOULD EVENLY GET DIVIDED AMONGST THE -- >> NO, NO.

>> PEOPLE DESERVING NOT ONLY IN SOLUTION BUT WHEREVER YOU LIVE.

THAT WOULD BE A SHOW.

THAT WOULD BE A SHOW.

>> I DON'T WANT TO START ANYTHING, BUT IF GEORGETOWN JESUIT SCHOOL IS THINKING ABOUT REPARATIONS, WHAT ABOUT ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY WHICH WAS BUILT WITH SLAVES WITH HIM WHEN IS THAT CONVERSATION GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> LET'S GIVE THEM A CALL TOMORROW.

>> TO ME THAT'S A VERY REALISTIC WAY TO GO ABOUT THIS.

SCHOLARSHIPS, AND IT -- >> THAT'S WHAT THE MAYOR SAID SHE WANTED TO DO.

>> THAT'S WHY I SAY, SHE'S RIGHT FOR DOING THAT.

>> LET'S SEE WHAT FOLKS HAD TO SAY ABOUT LAST WEEK'S PROGRAM.

DALE WROTE, GAMBLING OUTFITS ARE LIKE ANY OTHER BUSINESS, THEY'RE IN IT FOR THE MONEY AND NAY CAN'T MAKE MONEY UNLESS PEOPLE LOSE MONEY.

BUT THEY MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE GAMBLER WILL WIN A BUN DEPARTMENT.

GAMBLING IS GOOD FOR NOBODY EXCEPT THE GAMBLING INSTITUTIONS AND COWARDLY POLITICIANS.

CRAIG, THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE CORY BUSH WILL MAKE A HUGE MISTAKE OVERLOOKING THE POLITICAL MACHINE SHE BUILT AND IS CONSTANTLY BUILDING.

SHE TIRELESSLY REPRESENTS THE MARGINALIZED IN HER DISTRICT, SHE KNOWS WHAT THAT'S LIKE.

YOU CAN WRITE US CARE OF NINE PBS, WE LOVE THOSE EMAILS, AND THOSE TWEETS.

DON'T FORGET YOU CAN FIND US WHEREVER YOU FIND YOUR FAVORITE PODCAST.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION.

STAY TUNED, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE FRONT PAGE STORY ON THIS WEEK'S RFT, WHEN A FAMILY FINDS OUT ANCESTORS HELD SLAVES.

THAT'S JUST AROUND THE CORNER.

DON'T GO AWAY.

>> "DONNYBROOK" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION, AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.