>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

WE USED TO HAVE A SHOW ON PBS CALLED ZOOM.

I DON'T THINK THEY MENTIONED ZOOM AS OFTEN AS WE HAVE IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS, BUT HERE WE ARE.

WE HOPE EVERYONE IS SAFE AND INSIDE AND ENJOYING OUR SEASONAL WEATHER.

HEY, WE HAVE A SPECIAL BEST ON NEXT UP.

HE'S JOHN SHIMKUS, RETIRED CONGRESSMAN WHO SPENT 28 YEARS IN THE MILITARY AND IS ALSO PART OF THE BALTIC CAUCUS AND SERVED ON THE NATO PARLIAMENTARY ASSEMBLY.

HE'LL BE TALKING TO ALVIN AND RAY ON THE SECOND HALF ABOUT UKRAINE.

LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS ON THIS EDITION STARTING WITH THE COHOST OF THE JENNIFER AND WENDY WIESE SHOW ON KTRS, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH MR.

BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST.

LOUIS POST-DISPATCH AND STLTODAY.COM.

RAY HARTMANN WITH RAWSTORY.COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES AND KTRS, AND FROM THE ST.

LOUIS AMERICAN WHERE HE EDITS THE NEWS AND WRITES THE SPORTS COLUMN, IN ALVIN REID.

WELL, WE WANT TO THANK BENTLEY BLAIR WHO IS DIRECTING THIS EPISODE BECAUSE OUR DIRECTOR AND EXEC PRODUCER ANNE MARIE BERGER IS ENJOYING HERSELF AS SHE PREPARES FOR HER BIG BIRTHDAY ON SUNDAY THE 27th.

AND I THINK SOMEWHERE OUT THERE, WE HAVE A COMPROMISING PHOTO OF ANNE MARIE IF WE CAN SHOW THAT TO YOU.

AND I'M ASSUMING YOU'RE SEEING THAT RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T HAPPEN TO SEE IT, BUT WE WISH ANNE MARIE A HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

>> HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

>> HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

>> AMEN.

OKAY, BILL McCLELLAN, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT RETIRED SENATOR JOHN DAN FORTH WHO GAVE AN INTERVIEW THIS WEEK.

HE SAID THAT POLLING HE'S CONDUCTED SUGGESTS AN INDEPENDENT CAN WIN THE U.S.

SENATE RACE THIS YEAR.

OF COURSE, ROY BLUNT JR.

IS GIVING UP HIS SEAT IN THE U.S.

SENATE AND THERE ARE QUITE A FEW REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS VYING FOR THAT.

DANFORTH SAYS HIS POLLING INDICATES AN INDEPENDENT CAN DO THAT AND HE ALSO SAYS THAT THAT PERSON, HE GUARANTEED, WILL BE WELL FUNDED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO START.

I MEAN, IN THE FIRST PLACE, ANY POLL THAT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT HYPER-PARTISAN THESE DAYS IS REALLY IN QUESTION.

I MEAN, I DON'T CARE LOOK AT LINCOLN COUNTY A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

REMEMBER THE BIG DEAL ABOUT CARLA ALSBERRY WHO RAN FOR CIRCUIT CLERK AS A REPUBLICAN, HAD NEVER RUN FOR ANYTHING, AND THE DEMOCRAT WHO HAD THE OFFICE, HELD THE OFFICE FOR A LONG TIME, GOT BEAT AND THE JUDGE HAD THE GOOD WISDOM TO CHANGE FROM BEING A DEMOCRAT TO A REPUBLICAN BECAUSE HE KNEW THAT A DEMOCRAT COULDN'T WIN IN LINCOLN COUNTY, AND THINGS ARE JUST HYPER-PARTISAN.

I MEAN, TRY TO WIN AN ELECTION IN ST.

LOUIS AS A REPUBLICAN OR A DOG CATCHER ANYWHERE OUT STATE AS A DEMOCRAT, AND YET SENATOR DANFORTH HAS A POLL SHOWING THAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO VOTE FOR AN INDEPENDENT.

I MEAN, IT -- I WISH IT WERE TRUE, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE OLD GUARD KNOWING THAT AN OLD GUARD REPUBLICAN WOULDN'T HAVE A CHANCE IN THE PRIMARY, THINKS MAYBE IF THEY SNEAK ONE IN AFTER THE PRIMARY, HE CAN WIN.

IT'S JUST NOT VERY REALISTIC.

>> I'M NOT VERY GOOD AT MATH, BUT THE WAY THE POLLING BREAKS DOWN, BILL, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.

HE WAS SAYING THAT THE COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVE ALTERNATIVE CENTRIST WOULD RECEIVE 28%, THE TRUMPER WOULD RECEIVE 31%, THE SCHUMER LOYALIST WOULD ALSO RECEIVE 31% WITH A MARGIN OF ERROR OF 3 TO 3.5%.

TO ME, THAT WOULD PUT THE CENTRIST AT A FAIRLY -- I MEAN, YOU KNOW, A DISADVANTAGE.

WHAT I THINK IS INTERESTING HERE IS HE IS AN ORDER DANE -- OR ALWAYS HAS BEEN AN ORDAINED EPISCOPAL MINISTER.

I THINK THAT HE IS DEEPLY HAUNTED, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, ABOUT HIS EARLY SUPPORT OF JOSH HAWLEY AND I DO BELIEVE THAT WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS INTRODUCE THE IDEA AT LEAST POLITICALLY OF HEALING.

I THINK IT REALLY -- I THINK IT BOTHERS HIM.

IF YOU HEAR THESE INTERVIEWS WITH HIM, HE IS PROFOUNDLY BOTHERED BY THAT, THAT ADVOCACY OF SOMEBODY HE NOW SEES AS -- >> I'M SURE HE IS, BUT THE IDEA THAT A CENTRIST REPUBLICAN WHO WOULDN'T HAVE A CHANCE IN THE PRIMARY COULD SOMEHOW GET SUPPORT IN THE GENERAL ELECTION FROM DEMOCRATS OR MAYBE REPUBLICANS WHO DON'T LIKE ERIC GREITENS, ASSUMING HE GET THE NOM, AND THE FIRST GUY WHO JUMPS IN IS AN OLD DEMOCRAT.

AND I THOUGHT, OH MY GOSH, I MEAN, THAT'S NOT WHAT DANFORTH HAD IN MIND.

>> I GUESS -- GO AHEAD, ALVIN.

>> NO, GO AHEAD, RAY.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I -- THIS WHOLE ACT HAS KIND OF WORN THIN WITH CERTAIN ME, A LOT OF PEOPLE, I THINK, AND YES, I'M GLAD YOU MENTIONED THAT THE LAST TIME HE WEIGHED IN WITH HIS EXPERTISE WAS TO GIVE US JOSH HAWLEY, MUCH LIKE HE GAVE THE COUNTRY CLARENCE THOMAS AS A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

I MEAN, WHAT COULD GO WRONG WITH SOMEBODY PUTTING THEIR FAITH IN POLLING?

IT'S DONE SO WELL IN RECENT CYCLES.

THE ONLY QUESTION IS, I THINK IT'S FAIRLY CLEAR THAT HE'S JUST WRONG AND THERE'S NO INDEPENDENT, REGARDLESS OF MONEY, IS GOING TO WIN.

I THINK THE HARDER QUESTION IS IF YOU TALK TO REPUBLICANS, THEY'RE PRETTY CONVINCED THAT IT WILL HELP ELECT A DEMOCRAT AND IF YOU TALK TO DEMOCRATS, THEY PROBABLY THINK IT WILL HELP ELECT A REPUBLICAN.

I THINK IT'S MORE MATH THAN ANYTHING ELSE AND IT WOULD REALLY DEPEND ON WHICH REPUBLICAN HE MERGES AND WHICH DEMOCRAT EMERGES FROM THEIR RESPECTIVE PRIMARIES.

I THINK IT'S NONSENSE.

>> ALVIN?

>> WELL, I STILL HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR JACK DANFORTH.

HE MESSED UP WITH JOSH HAWLEY AND THAT'S CLEAR.

I THINK JOSH HAWLEY FOOLED HIM, I HONESTLY DO.

I DON'T THINK THAT IT WAS A MISJUDGMENT OF CHARACTER.

I THINK THE CHARACTER JUST CHANGED HIS SPOTS LIKE THE LINCOLN COUNTY JUDGE CHANGED TO A DEMOCRAT.

JOSH HAWLEY SAW THE WRITING ON THE WALL AND SAID INSTEAD OF BEHAVING LIKE I HAVE SOME SENSE, I'M GOING TO BEHAVE LIKE A, YOU KNOW, JUST A PARTISAN ZEALOT.

I THINK AN INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE COULD COME CLOSER IN A LOT OF RACES ACROSS AMERICA, INCLUDING THIS ONE.

I THINK VICKY HARTSWELL HAD A GOOD LINE WHEN YOU'RE ON SIGN-UP DAY, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, REGISTRATION, BUT SHE SAID I WOULD SUPPORT ANY REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE EXCEPT FOR ERIC GREITENS.

THAT INCLUDES McCLOSKEY, THAT INCLUDES THE WHOLE FIELD OUT THERE, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT DANFORTH IS SAYING AND WHAT OTHER REPUBLICANS ARE PROBABLY CONCERNED WITH IS THAT ERIC GREITENS COULD LOSE NOT ONLY TO A DEMOCRAT, BUT IF AN INDEPENDENT, MODERATE REPUBLICAN, MODERATE DEMOCRAT RAN, MAYBE THEY SCRAPE UP ENOUGH VOTE STOP MAKE UP THAT 4, 5%.

>> WELL, ALVIN, I THINK I MIGHT AGREE WITH YOU.

WE NEED TO MOVE ALONG, BUT I THOUGHT I'D JUMP IN REAL QUICKLY.

>> I THINK THE OPPOSITE WOULD HAPPEN.

I THINK IF ERIC GREITENS GETS THE NOMINATION AND THERE ARE REPUBLICANS WHO THINK I DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR ERIC GREITENS, BUT THEY'RE HESITANT ABOUT VOTING FOR A DEMOCRAT, IF ALL OF A SUDDEN THERE'S THIS CENTRIST CANDIDATE, OH GREAT, I'LL VOTE FOR HIM.

MEANWHILE, THE DEMOCRATS ARE VOTING FOR THE DEMOCRATS AND ERIC GREITENS GETS IN.

>> WELL, I WILL SAY, TO DEFEND JOHN DANFORTH, I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT WHEN HE STOOD UP ON PRINCIPLE AND HE DID NOT VOTE TO GAN BURNING OF THE AMERICAN FLAG.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS A DIFFICULT DECISION HE MADE AT THE TIME AND I HOPE HE'S RIGHT THAT SOMEONE WHO IS NOT HYPER-PARTISAN ON EITHER SIDE WITH WING.

DON'T FORGET ARTHUR SLESINGER WROTE THE BOOK CYCLES OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

HE SAID THE POLITICS IS LIKE A PENDULUM, IT GOES BACK AND FORTH AND MAYBE DANFORTH IS RIGHT, WE'RE READY TO GO BACK.

>> HE'S AS SHADOWY AS HIS MONEY, BUT ERIC GREITENS WILL NOT BE THE NOMINEE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, WENDY, ABOUT A RACE IN ST.

CHARLES COUNTY WHERE THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE STEVE EHLMANN WILL BE UP AGAINST ONE OF THE BEST-KNOWN STATE SENATORS, AT LEAST THE ONE WHO GETS THE MOST PRESS ATTENTION.

BOB ONDER.

HE'S BEEN TERM LIMITED OUT OF HIS JOB IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, SO HE'S TAKING ON STEVE EHLMANN, ALSO FORMER MEMBER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WHO PRESIDES OVER ST.

LOUIS COUNTY WHO IS BOOMING WITH POPULATION AND JOBS AND MORE.

THEY ARE BOTH RAISING MONEY.

TURNS OUT ABOUT 95% OF ONDER'S MONEY IS COMING FROM OUTSIDE THE DISTRICT.

$100,000 CAME FROM HIS BROTHER.

AS FOR EHLMANN, HE'S RAISING MONEY IN THE DISTRICT, BUT FACE IT, BOB ONDER HAS A LOT OF NAME RECOGNITION.

HE IS PROBABLY AS WELL-KNOWN AS ANY STATE SENATOR IN MISSOURI.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK THAT IS PROBABLY TRUE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE FACT THAT HE HAS SPENT SO MUCH TIME AND GRABBING SO MANY HEADLINES LATELY BY SOME PRETTY DIVISIVE POSITIONS, EVEN WITHIN HIS PARTY, IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, HE'S -- HE DOESN'T WANT CERTAIN MATERIALS TO BE INTRODUCED IN SCHOOLS.

HE WANTS PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO CARRY WEAPONS ON TRANSPORTATION SYSTEMS OWNED BY THE STATE.

I THINK THAT'S -- I THINK THAT'S KIND OF RISKY.

I THINK EHLMANN IS VERY POPULAR.

I THINK HE IS STILL VERY POPULAR, AND IN SPITE OF THE VOLATILITY OF THESE TIMES, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO WITH THE PERSON -- I'M JUST SPEAKING OFF THE, YOU KNOW, FROM THE HEART.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO WITH THE ONES THAT MAKE THEM FEEL COMFORTABLE AND I THINK THAT'S STEVE EHLMANN.

>> YOU'RE BEING NICE, WENDY.

STEVE EHLMANN WOULD BEAT BOB ONDER LIKE A RUG.

>> WELL, THERE IS THAT -- YOU CAN SAY IT'S -- >> BECAUSE, I MEAN, THE VACCINATION RATE -- >> THE MULE.

>> YEAH, TAKE THE BRAKES OFF IT.

I MEAN, THE VACCINATION RATE IN ST.

CHARLES COUNTY IS MUCH HIGHER THAN IT IS IN RURAL MISSOURI, AND BOB ONDER APPEALS AS A STATE LEGISLATOR TO RURAL MISSOURI.

I DON'T THINK HE IS -- LIKE YOU SAID, I THINK STEVE EHLMANN IS MUCH MORE POPULAR IN ST.

CHARLES COUNTY THAN BOB ONDER.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S A RACE AT ALL.

>> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT HANDICAPPING IT.

I LIVE THE FACT THAT YOU MENTIONED THAT ONDER GOT $100,000 FROM HIS BROTHER.

PEOPLE MIGHT NOT KNOW THIS, BUT HIS BROTHER JIM ONE A JILLION-DOLLAR TALCUM POWDER CASE AND SO THE TRIAL ATTORNEY AND OTHERS WHO SUPPORT ONDER WHO ARE SORT OF A TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC BASE, THAT'S JUST A LITTLE DETAIL.

ONDER, OF COURSE, IS ONLY INTERESTED IN RUNNING IF HE COULD -- YOU THINK SAM PAGE IS WORKING ON THE SIDE.

ONDER IS AN ALLERGIST IN WEST COUNTY AND I THINK IN ST.

CHARLES, AND HE WANTS TO BE SURE HE CAN BE AN ALLERGIST AS MUCH AS HE WANTS.

I WOULDN'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO PLAY VERY WELL.

HE'S ALSO JUST A DEMAGOGUE.

THE GUY HAS A MEDICAL DEGREE FROM WASH-U, A LEGAL DEGREE FROM SLU AND HE ACTS LIKE HE'S THIS DOWN-HOME -- IT REMINDS YOU A LOT OF JOSH HAWLEY IN TERMS OF JUST HOW DISINGENUOUS AND WHAT A DEMAGOGUE HE IS, BUT I GUESS PEOPLE GOT TO FIGURE THAT OUT THEMSELVES IN ST.

CHARLES.

>> I WANT TO JUST THROW IN ONE THING AND ACTUALLY, ST.

CHARLES COUNTY HAS A HIGHER VACCINATION RATE THAN THE CITY OR THE COUNTY, ST.

LOUIS COUNTY.

I WANT TO ASK ALVIN ABOUT A REAL ESTATE PROPOSAL FOR THE CORNER OF LINDELL AND KINGSHIGHWAY IN THE CENTRAL WEST END.

THE KOPLAR FAMILY WHICH GAVE US THE CHASE PARK PLAZA, MARYLAND PLAZA, CHANNEL 11 AND MORE, IS PLANNING A 30-STORY, $135 MILLION RESIDENTIAL TOWER.

AND ACCORDING TO PUBLISHED REPORTS, THEY WILL BE LOOKING FOR TAX BREAKS.

NOW, YOU HAVE THIS BEAUTIFUL TOWER OVERLOOKING FOREST PARK AND THE SETTING SUN TO THE WEST.

DOES THAT REALLY NEED A SUBSIDY THAT WOULD TAKE MONEY FROM THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I MEAN, THE PIECE OF LAND THAT IT'S ON IS JUST SOME OF THE MOST VALUABLE REAL ESTATE PROBABLY IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI.

I CALL IT THE PINEAPPLE BUILDING WHERE THOSE ARE CONDOS, I GUESS, AND APARTMENTS, AND THAT BUILDING OR WHOEVER THE DEVELOPERS ARE, GOT A TAX BREAK AS WELL.

BY THE WAY, I CALL THAT THE SPONGEBOB BECAUSE I GUESS HE LIVES IN THERE.

BUT THIS WILL BE WHERE THE ADMINISTRATION OF TISHAURA JONES, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT REALLY JUST SAYING YES TO ANY PROPOSAL AND WHATEVER THE INITIAL PROPOSAL IS, IF IT GETS WINNOWED DOWN, I'D BE HAPPY WITH THAT, BUT I WOULD REALLY BE HAPPY WITH ZERO.

>> ME TOO.

IT IS THE PREMIER CORNER IN THE CITY.

I MEAN, RIGHT THERE AT THE PARK IN THE CENTRAL WEST END AND IT -- AND I KNOW THERE'S A PARKING LOT THERE AND I SOMETIMES WONDERED, WHY IS THERE A PARKING LOT THERE?

BUT IT JUST SEEMS LIKE IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO BUILD A DELUXE CONDO OR HIGH-END APARTMENT, IT'S A GREAT PLACE TO DO IT AND WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE -- THE CITY SHOULD NOT BE SUBSIDIZING ANY OF IT.

>> BUT IF THE PINEAPPLE BUILDING RECEIVED TAX BREAKS, WHY WOULDN'T -- WHY WOULDN'T THE KOPLAR/ALBION CHICAGO, CENTRAL WEST, WHATEVER IT'S GOING TO BE CALLED, WHY WOULDN'T THEY EXPECT IT?

THEY SAID THEY'RE WILLING TO WORK WITH THE TISHAURA JONES ADMINISTRATION TO DO THEIR PART IN THE AREA OF AFFORDABLE HOUSING, BUT UNTIL WE BRING THIS TO A STOP, WE CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE, CAN WE?

I DON'T -- >> YES, WE CAN.

>> I THINK -- WENDY, I'M NOT MAD AT CRESTWOOD BECAUSE THEY KIND OF GAVE IN TO THE DEVELOPERS AND I GUESS DEARBURG IS THINKING OF REDOING THE OLD CRESTWOOD MALL SITE BECAUSE IT SAT EMPTY AND IT'S JUST LIKE A BIG PRAIRIE FIELD.

SO THAT PROJECT, MAYBE I CAN GET WITH, WE GOT TO DO SOMETHING WITH IT, BUT SOMETHING WILL ULTIMATELY BE BUILT WHERE THE PARKING LOT IS, BILL, AND I THINK SOMEBODY WILL COME ALONG AND SAY I DON'T NEED ANYTHING.

>> WAIT A MINUTE, I DON'T -- LOOK, I DON'T LIKE THE SUBSIDIES MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE ON THIS PRESUME, BUT WHY WOULD YOU START WITH THE KOPLARS?

>> EXACTLY, AFTER EVERYTHING THEY'VE DONE.

>> SURE.

ONCE THE CARDINALS START PAYING FOR SOME OF THIS, YOU KNOW, AND FRANKLY, I BELIEVE THE MLS STADIUM WILL BE GETTING A FAIR AMOUNT OF SUBSIDY INDIRECTLY OR DIRECTLY, AND IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW -- AND CERTAINLY THAT FAMILY, THE TAYLORS HAVE GOT A LOT MORE DOUGH THAN THE KOPLARS.

>> I CAN TELL YOU WHY YOU START WITH THE KOPLARS.

BECAUSE IT'S A NEW ADMINISTRATION.

I MEAN, THE JONES ADMINISTRATION DID NOT DO THE PINEAPPLE BUILDING.

>> T YOU TALK TO CRAIG RIGGINS, YOU PROBABLY HEAR HIM ONCE IN A WHILE ON THE RADIO, HE GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL IN 1977 AND WENT TO PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THE CITY OF ST.

LOUIS AND HE SAID THE GRADE SCHOOL, THE MIDDLE SCHOOL HE WENT TO, THEY'RE STILL THE SAME BUILDING AND THEY WERE OLD WHEN HE ATTENDED THEM AND WE HAVE JUST TAKEN SO MUCH MONEY OUT OF THE SCHOOLS THROUGH ALL SORTS OF TAX BREAKS TO DEVELOPERS.

IT'S GOT TO STOP SOMEWHERE AND AT LEAST ON THE PRIME PIECES OF PROPERTY.

THE PROBLEM AS YOU ALL KNOW IS THAT THE ST.

LOUIS DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION GETS ONE PERCENT OF ALL THE TAX BREAKS, SO THERE'S A PERVERSE INCENTIVE FOR THIS ORGANIZATION WHEN IT GRANTS TAX BREAKS.

>> CHARLIE, I'D LIKE TO WEIGH IN ON THIS FROM GREATER ST.

LOUIS.

WE DON'T HEAR MUCH FROM THEM.

THEY'RE IN THE DEVELOPMENT BUSINESS THEMSELVES AND I'M CURIOUS WHAT THEY THINK.

THEY'RE ALL ABOUT THE CENTRAL CORRIDOR AND I'D BE CURIOUS HOW THEY COME DOWN ON THIS BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO MUCH NORTH OR SOUTH.

IT'S ALL IN THIS CORRIDOR, IN THE CENTRAL CORRIDOR.

>> WELL, IN THE CENTRAL CORRIDOR, RAY, IS THE LOOP TROLLEY WHICH IS NOW MOTHBALLED, BUT IT'S GOING TO START RUNNING AGAIN AROUND JUNE 1st, WE THINK, CONNECTING THE HISTORY MUSEUM DOWN TO BOLIVAR, TAKE A LEFT THERE INTO THE LOOP.

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT IT COSTS ABOUT $50 MILLION, $30 MILLION FROM THE FEDS, BUT IT REALLY WASN'T THAT MUCH OF A SUCCESS.

BUT LAST FRIDAY, THE BI-STATE BOARD SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO PUT MONEY INTO IT, BUT WE WILL OPERATE IT JUST SO THAT WE DON'T LOSE THAT FEDERAL MONEY.

WE WANT THE FEDS -- WE DON'T WANT THE FEDS TO CLAW BACK THE MONEY IF WE PERMANENTLY END THE LOOP TROLLEY.

ISN'T THAT LIKE ESTABLISHING A POTEMPKIN VILLAGE?

NOBODY IS GOING TO BE RIDING IT, IT WILL BE OPERATING THURSDAYS AND FRIDAYS, AND WE'LL PRETEND IT'S OPERATED.

>> I THINK TAULBY ROACH WAS GOOD TO STEP UP AND SAY THE TRUTH.

AS A TRANSPORTATION ASSET IT'S A FAILURE, A DISASTER, BUT BI-STATE ALSO OPERATES -- I THINK THE BEST WAY TO LOOK AT THIS IS TO THINK OF IT AS A RIVERBOAT.

I KNOW THAT SOUNDS STRANGE, BUT BI-STATE OPERATES THE ROBERT E. LEE, A COUPLE OF RIVERBOATS, IN ADDITION TO THE ARCH TRAM.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE HOW MANY THINGS OR BI-STATE'S PLATE, AND THEY DO IT WELL.

WHATEVER ONE THINKS ABOUT BUSES AND TRAINS, THEY DO IT WELL.

THEY ARE CAPABLE MORE THAN ANYONE OF MAKING SURE, AS HE SAYS, THAT THE TRAINS ARE IN GOOD CONDITION, THAT THE EQUIPMENT WORKS, THAT IT RUNS ON TIME, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT DOESN'T HIT THINGS.

THE LOOP TROLLEY ASSOCIATION WAS A DISASTER AND IT'S ESSENTIALLY BEEN FIRED, OKAY?

AND I THINK -- I DIDN'T BELIEVE AT THE TIME THIS HAPPENED, I SORT OF GOT OFF THE TROLLEY, THAT WE'D REALLY LOSE THE FEDERAL MONEY, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE SMARTER THAN ME ABOUT THIS, INCLUDING TAULBY AND TISHAURA JONES, SAY WE WILL, AND IT'S SIMPLY -- WHATEVER YOU THINK ABOUT THE TROLLEY AND ALL THE EMOTIONS, IF IT CAN WORK AS A TOURIST ATTRACTION, AS AN AMENITY TO THE -- ACCOUTREMENT TO THE LOOP, FUNDED MOSTLY BY PEOPLE WHO SHOP IN THE LOOP, THE TDD DOWN, THERE I DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY WE SHOULDN'T -- JUST SAY THAT WE'D RATHER LOSE UNTOLD TENS OF MILLIONS IN THE FUTURE, I DON'T THINK IT'S WORTH THAT.

>> THE FOLKS IN THE TDD DISTRICT ARE THE FIRST ONES TO SAY, YOU KNOW, THEY JUST SAY WE'RE NOT PAYING ANYMORE OR I'LL CLOSE MY STORE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE A DEFINITIVE MOMENT WHERE THAT WOULD BE CALLING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S BLUFF.

IT'S EASY FOR ME TO SAY BECAUSE I STILL THINK THAT I WOULD -- I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THE FEDS WOULD CLAW BACK THAT MONEY.

MAYBE I'M NAIVE, AND I'M NOT THE MAYOR AND I'M NOT THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE OR TAULBY, SO IT'S EASY FOR ME TO SAY, BUT I MIGHT HAVE PLAYED THAT A LITTLE LONGER UNTIL THEY SET A DEADLINE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

IN THE MEANTIME, RAY, I AGREE WITH YOU KIND OF IN THAT WHY TAKE THE CHANCE.

IT RUNS, IT'S NOT COSTING US ANYTHING, IS IT?

AND IN REALITY -- >> I LIKE THE WAY -- I LIKE THAT WAY OF PRESENTING IT OR OF GETTING USED TO THINK ABOUT IT, RAY.

IT'S STILL AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT MOST OF US THINK OF AS, YOU KNOW, A BOONDOGGLE, BUT IF ANYONE WOULD SAY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, THAT NO, THE FEDS AREN'T GOING TO CLAW BACK THIS MONEY, IT WOULD BE TISHAURA JONES.

I'VE HAD MY -- I HAVE HAD MY ISSUES WITH TAULBY ROACH AND SOME OF HIS POSITIONS ON SECURITY ON METROLINK, BUT HE SEEMS TO BE ABSOLUTELY SINCERE WITH THIS, YOU KNOW, SAYING THAT I HATE THIS, BUT WE HAVE TO DO IT.

>> THE PEOPLE THAT WE SHOULD BE UPSET WITH IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN, HERE'S A PROJECT AND WE SAY, WELL, WE TRIED IT AND IT'S NOT WORKING.

AND THEY SAY, WELL, WE'RE NOT GOING TO ARGUE THAT, BUT KEEP DOING IT.

>> KEEP IT UP.

>> I AGREE WITH BILL.

>> BILL'S RIGHT.

>> HEY, LET'S GET -- >> CHARLIE, ONE THING REAL QUICK.

BILL IS RIGHT.

LET'S NOT FORGET, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SELECTED IT OUT OF, LIKE, 65 PROJECTS.

WE WON THE COMPETITION, ONE OF FIVE OR SIX CITIES.

THEY PICKED IT, SO I AGREE WITH BILL.

>> WENDY WIESE, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A PROPOSAL IN JEFFERSON CITY WHICH WOULD ALLOW CERTAIN WORKERS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, LIKE JANITORS AND TEACHERS, ADMINISTRATORS, LUNCH LADIES, TO CARRY FIREARMS IF THEY ARE TRAINED, IF THE SCHOOL IS NOT PROXIMATE TO A POLICE FORCE, AND IF THE EMPLOYEE WANTS TO DO THAT.

SO TRAINED WORKFORCE CARRYING FIREARMS, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I KNOW THAT THIS IS A -- IT'S A REALLY DIVISIVE ISSUE, BUT I THINK IF YOU ASK PARENTS WHOSE KIDS HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY VIOLENCE IN SCHOOLS, I THINK YOU'D SEE ALMOST A 50-50 SPLIT.

I REALLY DO.

BECAUSE THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TRAINING.

I BELIEVE IT IS -- IS IT 118 HOURS INITIALLY, AND THEN THEY HAVE TO BE RECERTIFIED EVERY TWO YEARS?

BUT IF I HAVE -- IF I HAVE A CHILD IN SCHOOL OR IF I'M THINKING OF MY GRANDSON BEING IN SCHOOL, I WOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM AT ALL WITH SOME ADULT BEING AUTHORIZED TO CARRY A FIREARM IN CASE AN ADAM LANZA MADE HIS OR HER WAY INTO A SCHOOL BUILDING AND YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE TINY INNOCENT LIVES AT STAKE.

>> WELL, I -- AS A GRANDFATHER WHO HAS TWO CHILDREN IN A SCHOOL, I'M MUCH MORE WORRIED ABOUT A ACCIDENTAL SHOOTING OR SOMEBODY LOSING THEIR THEM PER CARRYING A FIREARM.

NOTHING AGAINST TEACHERS, NOTHING AGAINST JANITORS, NOTHING AGAINST THE COOKING LADY, BUT THEY MIGHT BE HAVING A BAD DAY AND I THINK THAT'S A GREATER RISK THAN HAVING A ADAM LANZA OR WHATEVER HIS NAME WAS, THE SANDY HOOK GUY.

I MEAN, THAT'S GETTING HIT BY LIGHTNING.

I THINK THE MORE WEAPONS YOU START HAVING IN A SCHOOL, THE MORE LIKELY THERE IS FOR A PROBLEM.

>> I THINK WE'VE HAD A LOT OF LIGHTNING STRIKES, BILL.

THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

>> AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S -- I JUST -- I'M NOT TO THE POINT WHERE THAT MEANS EVERYBODY CAN CARRY A GUN IN SCHOOL.

I'M VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF INCIDENTS THAT WE DON'T LEARN ABOUT INVOLVING ALTERCATIONS BETWEEN TEACHERS, PEOPLE WHO WORK IN SCHOOLS, AND STUDENTS.

A LOT OF THEM.

AND THIS IS JUST ANOTHER REALLY, REALLY BAD IDEA.

IT JUST -- YOU KNOW, NOT TO MAKE LIGHT, BUT WHAT COULD GO WRONG WITH THAT?

WELL, A LOT.

>> I AGREE AND MY FELLOW FOUNDER SAID IT FAR BETTER THAN I, BUT I WILL ADD TO WENDY WIESE'S POINT.

YES, WE NEED AN ADULT.

IT'S CALLED A POLICE OFFICER AND IF WE NEED MORE POLICE OFFICERS AND TRAINED SECURITY GUARDS, BY ALL MEANS, HAVE THEM.

>> I AGREE.

>> ALMOST ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH A TEACHER OR MAINTENANCE PERSON OR WHATEVER IS BAD.

>> I THINK WENDY IS CORRECT.

YOU COULD HAVE A RETIRED POLICE OFFICER OR RETIRED VETERAN WHO'S NOW TEACHING IN THE SCHOOL, HAS A LOT OF EXPERIENCE.

IN FACT A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MAYBE THE SECURITY GUARD THAT YOU SEE AT A BANK.

I WALK INTO A BANK, I'M NOT AFRAID AND WE DON'T SEE THAT THESE SECURITY GUARDS ARE HAVING A BAD DAY AND SHOOTING PEOPLE, SO WHY WOULD THE COOKING LADY DO THAT?

AS WENDY POINTS OUT, THE KEY IS TRAINING.

>> BUT CHARLIE, DO YOU ARM THE TELLERS AND LOAN OFFICER TOO?

NO ONE IS ARGUING AGAINST SECURITY GUARDS.

I'M NOT ARGUING AGAINST SECURITY GUARDS AND TRAINED POLICE.

>> YOU'RE ARGUING AGAINST A COOKING LADY.

RAY WOULD BE SERVED A BAD MEAL.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, ALVIN, ABOUT LINDENWOOD.

WE HAVE A MINUTE TO GO.

LINDENWOOD IS GOING D-1.

THUPS UP, THUMBS DOWN, OR YOU DON'T CARRY?

>> THUMBS UP.

THEY COULD BE THE GONZAGA OF THE MIDWEST.

ALL THE REST OF THE SPORTS ARE D-2, BUT BASKETBALL IS D-1.

YOU GET IN THIS CONFERENCE, YOU GO TO A BOWL GAME, YOU PLAY SOME TEAM PROBABLY, YOU MIGHT GET SLAUGHTERED, BUT EARLY IN THE SEASON, THEY COULD PLAY MISSOURI, PLAY A LARGE SCHOOL.

ALL OF A SUDDEN, PEOPLE KNOW THAT THERE'S A LINDENWOOD UNIVERSITY AND NOTHING BUT GOOD CAN COME FROM THAT.

IT WILL ALSO HELP ENROLLMENT.

I KNOW THIS PLAYS OUT EVERY TIME, IT'S THE STRANGEST THING.

TEAMS GET IN A BOWL GAME, TEAMS GET IN THE NCAA TOURNAMENT AND ALL OF A SUDDEN PEOPLE FROM ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY START APPLYING TO GO TO THAT SCHOOL.

SO IT'S A GOOD THING.

>> ALVIN, DO YOU REALLY WANT LINDENWOOD BEATING MISS ZOU?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW THEY'LL SCHEDULE THEM.

>> NOTE I DID NOT SAY KU BECAUSE THEY WOULD BEAT KU PROBABLY.

>> I THINK IT'S GREAT AND -- I MEAN, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS, BUT YEAH.

>> ALL RIGHT.

GET YOUR SEASON TICKETS NOW.

HEY, THAT'S ALL WE HAVE FOR THIS PROGRAM.

HOWEVER, ON NEXT UP, WHICH IS THE SECOND HALF OF THIS HOUR, ALVIN AND RAY WILL BE TALKING TO RETIRED U.S.

REPRESENTATIVE JOHN SHIMKUS, REPUBLICAN FROM ILLINOIS, WITH THE TOPIC UKRAINE.

REPRESENTATIVE SHIMKUS WAS PART OF THE BALTIC CAUCUS AND ALSO SERVED ON THE NATO PARLIAMENTARY ASSEMBLY.

HE HAS DEFINITE OPINIONS ON UKRAINE AND THE U.S.

RESPONSE TO THE RUSSIAN INVASION.

THAT'S NEXT.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.