>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> WELL CONSUME TO ANOTHER DONNYBROOK.

LOTS TO TALK GOOD AND A GREAT GUEST ON THE SECOND HALF WHEN RHONDA HAMM-NIEBRUEGGE JOINS US, AIRPORT DIRECTOR FOR LAMBERT, INTERNATIONAL.

FIRST LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS WHO COMPRISE THE PROGRAM, STARTING WITH WENDY WIESE, 50% OF THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW ON KTRS.

MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, RAY HARTMANN FROM THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, RAWSTORY.COM AND THE BIG 550 KTRS AND MR. ALVIN REID WITH THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN.

BILL, I GUESS WE'RE GOING TO START WITH YOU AS WE'RE GETTING NEGLIGENCE FROM EVERY CORNER AS TO WHAT WE SHOULD DO.

THE HEALTH DIRECTOR OF THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS SAID WE SHOULD ALL STAY HOME EXCEPT FOR GOING TO SCHOOL AND WORK, I GUESS, AND MAYBE ERRANDS AND THE GROCERY STORE AND MAYBE THE DOCTOR.

MEANWHILE, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IS GOING TO START CLASSES VIRTUALLY ON THE 18th WHILE ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY WILL BE STUDYING IN-PERSON.

WELL, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT WITH ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY WITH IN-PERSON INSTRUCTION, WASH-U ONLINE?

>> WELL, I THINK IN-PERSON INSTRUCTION IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN ONLINE, AND LONG AS VACCINATIONS ARE REQUIRED AND BOOSTER SHOTS, I'M IN FAVOR OF IN-PERSON AND I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT THE SLU SAID THAT ALL IN-PERSON EVENTS WILL BE CANCELLED UNTIL AT LEAST FEBRUARY 13th EXCEPT FOR THINGS THAT AT THE ARENA AND IT SO HAPPENS THAT I HAVE A VERY GOOD SEAT FOR THE SATURDAY -- THE SORT OF SEATS I DON'T NORMALLY GET FOR SATURDAY'S GAME AGAINST FLORIDA.

SO I HAVE HAD TO MAKE A BIG DECISION ON THAT, AND SINCE THEY REQUIRE VACCINATIONS, PROOF OF VACCINATION TO GET IN AND MY SEAT'S A VERY GOOD ONE, I'VE DECIDED THAT I'M GOING TO GO AHEAD AND IGNORE THE CITY HEALTH DIRECTOR AND LISTEN TO THE PRESIDENT OF SLU.

>> GO BILLIKANS.

>> I STILL BELIEVE THAT DR. PESTELLO MIGHT CHANGE HIS MIND.

I THINK THIS IS A VERY FLUID SITUATION AND EVERY SINGLE DAY WE'RE SEEING MORE ORGANIZATIONS CANCEL EVENTS OR POSTPONE EVENTS, AND I THINK THE MORE WE SEE THESE HOSPITALIZATION RATES INCREASE AND YOU HEAR THAT THE FRONTLINE WORKERS AT THE HOSPITALS AND YOU HEAR THAT THE ADMINISTRATORS ARE BEING BEGGED BY THE FRONTLINE -- AND THE ADMINISTRATORS IN TURN ARE BEGGING PUBLIC OFFICIALS TO DO SOMETHING, I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF DR. PESTELLO CHANGES HIS MIND AND EARTH, IF IF -- AND ERRS, IF YOU WILL, ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION.

>> I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST UNDERRATED POINT IN THIS ENTIRE PANDEMIC IS THAT IS WE'RE JUST NOT ACCUSTOMED TO SOMETHING THAT IS UNKNOWN, SOMETHING THAT IS SO FLUID, AND THAT REALLY CHANGES.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THESE POOR HEALTH OFFICIALS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ARE DEALING WITH A MOVING TARGET, AND EVERY TIME THEY CHANGE, PEOPLE SAY, OH, YOU'RE FLIP-FLOPPING AND YOU'RE WISHY-WASHY, AND THE FACTS CHANGE.

I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

I THINK DR. PESTELLO, HE IS -- OR THE INSTITUTION ITSELF SHOULD BE THE ONE MAKING THE DECISION, BUT IT'S KIND OF HARD TO COMMENT ON IT WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEIR FACTS CHANGE NEXT WEEK, THEY'RE GOING TO CHANGE.

>> WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO AND WHAT YOU AREN'T GOING TO DO, OKAY?

AND, YOU KNOW, THE MISSOURI SYSTEM MADE A HORRIBLE DECISION SAYING YOU DON'T HAVE TO WEAR A MASK IN CLASS AND INSIDE THE BUILDING, THINGS LIKE THAT.

THAT'S HIDEOUS, BUT THEY MADE A DECISION, OKAY?

AND I THINK THE REAL TRAGEDY OF IT IS, ALVIN REID, COLUMBIA IS WHAT IT IS, BUT YOU'RE MAKING THAT DECISION FOR THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

LET'S SAY UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI ST. LOUIS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WEAR A MASK.

THIS MEANS SOME OF THE OTHER STATE SCHOOLS THAT ARE IN PLACES WHERE IT'S NOWHERE NEAR THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE VACCINATED, IT'S GOING TO GET THERE FIRST, BUT IT'S GOING TO GET TO COLUMBIA AND AT THE END, I GUESS, WHOEVER THE CHAIR OR WHATEVER THE CURATOR IS, WELL, WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE IT.

WELL, I CAN TELL YOU WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

COVID IS GOING TO SURGE ON ALL OF YOUR CAMPUSES AND YOU WILL FIND SOME REASON FOR STILL NOT DO THE RIGHT THING.

THAT IS MY GUESS.

>> WELL, WHEN DR. ANTHONY FAUCI SAID, WHAT, 17, 18 HOURS AGO, HE SAID OMICRON IS GOING TO EVENTUALLY GET ALL OF US, YOU KNOW, THAT -- TALKING ABOUT THE HIGH RATE OF TRANSMISSIBILITY, AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO THIS CONTAGIOUS, SO THE FOLKS WHO STILL THINK THAT THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, GO TO THE -- DO WHATEVER THEY WANT, THERE'S A DISCONNECT THERE AND I DON'T EVEN WANT TO TRY TO FIGURE IT OUT.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT.

I THINK -- I WAS SURPRISED THAT THE UM BOARD OF CURATORS, I DIDN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE I LIKE TO LET THE ADMINISTRATORS DECIDE.

IN THE CASE OF ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO REQUIRE BOOSTING, THEY'RE GOING TO REQUIRE MASKS, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE REGULAR SURVEILLANCE AND I NOTICED THAT MY ALMA MATER, BOSTON COLLEGE AND OTHER JESUIT SCHOOLS ARE DOING THE SAME THING AND SO DOES MY DAUGHTER'S SCHOOL, FORDHAM, ANOTHER JESUIT SCHOOL.

IT MIGHT BE A JESUIT THING.

>> HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE CURATORS DO.

ISN'T IT PRETTY OBVIOUS WHAT THEY DO?

ON ONE HAND, YOU WANT TO HAVE A PRIVATE INSTITUTION LIKE SLU, TO BE AN ANTI-MASK MESSAGE THAT DEPENDS ON ITS FUNDING FROM THE ANTI-MASK LEGISLATURE, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY MYSTERY HERE.

IT'S NOT EVEN AMORAL, IT'S IMMORE RIM MORAL WHAT THEY DID AND IT'S PURELY TO PANDER TO LEGISLATORS.

>> LET'S GO TO ANOTHER TOPIC AND WE'LL GO TO YOU, ALVIN REID, WHERE IT WAS ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY BY THE BISHOP OF THE ARCHDIOCESE OF ST. LOUIS, FORMER GUEST OF OUR PROGRAM AND TODD SCHNUCK OF SCHNUCK'S SUPERMARKET AND JERRY SWITZER, LOCAL ATTORNEY, THERE'S GOING TO MASSIVE OUTREACH TO AFGHANS AROUND THE COUNTRY TO MOVE TO ST. LOUIS.

THEY'RE GOING TO PULL OUT ALL THE STOPS.

200 COMPUTERS, CODING CLASSES FOR THE REFUGEES, A NEWSPAPER FOR THE COMMUNITY AND THEY HOPE TO MAKE ST. LOUIS THE PLACE TO BE AND THEY'RE HOPING TO REPLICATE WHAT WE DID FOR BOSNIANS IN THE MID 1990s.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, I WAS NOT HERE WITH WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE BOSNIANS.

I'LL SAY THIS.

WITHIN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AND THIS REGION, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE REFUGEES FROM, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC SETTLEMENT, REFUGEES FROM FAIRNESS, A SOLID EDUCATION, AND ALL THE PARTS INVOLVED DO THEIR PART.

THE SCHNUCK FAMILY, JERRY SWITZER, ALL GREAT PEOPLE, BUT I ALWAYS THINK TO MYSELF, YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO HELP PEOPLE, CHARITY STARTS AT HOME, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, KIND OF MEANING THAN IT WAS WHEN THAT PHRASE WAS COINED, BUT, YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS THINK THAT THERE'S ANOTHER -- I DON'T WANT TO SAY ANOTHER COUNTRY, BUT THERE'S ANOTHER, LIKE, SOCIETY THAT IS NOT IN TUNE WITH MOST OF ST. LOUIS AND IT RIGHT HERE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO FIND THEM, THEY'RE RIGHT HERE.

GOD BLESS THE EFFORT, BUT NEVER FORGET THAT WE AREN'T, YOU KNOW, A COSMOPOLITAN PLACE.

WE AREN'T -- WE GOT OUR OWN PROBLEMS RIGHT HERE THAT WE NEED TO FIX.

>> WHAT IS IT YOU ALWAYS SAY, BILL?

DON'T LET THE PERFECT BE THE ENEMY OF THE GOOD, AND I KNOW THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, ALVIN.

I JUST THINK THIS IS -- I THINK IT'S AS IMPORTANT FOR THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AS IT IS FOR THE AFGHAN COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW, CHARLIE, YOU MENTIONED WHAT HAPPENED WITH BOSNIAN REFUGEES IN THE MID '90s AND TO READ THAT ST. LOUIS HAS THE LARGEST BOSNIAN POPULATION OUTSIDE OF EUROPE, I MEAN, THAT IS STAGGERING.

AND SO THAT IS THE KIND OF THING.

I LOVE THE PART OF THE INITIATIVE THAT DEALS WITH CREATING COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY FEEL -- THEY FEEL COMFORTABLE.

THEY FEEL KINSHIP WITH THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM.

I LOVE THE PART ABOUT THE LIAISON WHO CAN HELP THEM KIND OF NAVIGATE, NEGOTIATE IN THEIR NATIVE TONGUE AND THAT KIND OF THING.

I JUST -- YOU KNOW, I THINK IT SOUNDS LIKE OH GOSH, THIS IS FANTASTIC OF ST. LOUIS TO OFFER THIS.

I THINK IT'S FANTASTIC FOR ST. LOUIS.

I THINK WE HAVE AS MUCH TO GAIN AS THE AFGHAN COMMUNITY.

>> I CAME ACROSS A VERY INTERESTING STATISTIC.

I WAS READING A BOOK BY MARK KRUEGER ABOUT THE ST. LOUIS COMMUNION, WHEN THE COMMUNIONIST PARTY TOOK OVER THE CITY FOR ABOUT THREE DAYS IN 1871, AND IN 1860, HE WROTE, 59.7% OF THE POPULATION OF ST. LOUIS WAS FOREIGN-BORN.

>> WOW.

>> ALMOST 60%.

>> WOW.

>> WERE BORN ELSEWHERE, AND I THOUGHT, WE'VE LOST THAT SO DRAMATICALLY.

I MEAN, PEOPLE -- IMMIGRANTS DON'T COME HERE.

BOSNIANS WERE AN EXCEPTION.

BUT IT WOULD BE GREAT TO SEE THE AFGHANIS BECOME AN EXCEPTION.

>> ABSOLUTELY, BUT I TELL YOU WHAT.

THIS IS AS GOOD AS GOOD CITIZENSHIP GETS IN A LOT OF WAYS BECAUSE OF THE NEED.

WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT ST. LOUIS IS IN DECLINE, WE NEED, YOU KNOW, TO SOME EXTENT, TO GROW.

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, I THINK ALVIN HAS THE -- IT'S NICE ALVIN WAS WILLING TO MAKE THAT STATEMENT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THE TWO ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

I KNOW YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT.

IT WOULD BE NICE TO THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE COULD USE A LITTLE MORE INITIATIVE WITHIN -- INTRA-IMMIGRATION, IF YOU WILL, OR GIVING PEOPLE SOME OPPORTUNITIES.

BUT I MEAN, YOU CAN'T -- I KNOW YOU'RE NOT SAYING THAT, ALVIN.

CERTAINLY, IT SHOULD BE A SOURCE OF PRIDE AND I'LL TELL YOU THIS.

THE BOSNIAN MUSLIM EXPERIENCE HERE HAS PROBABLY NOT BEEN COVERED VERY WELL BY US IN THE MEDIA BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN SOME UPS AND DOWNS AND SOME MIGRATION WITHIN, SINCE THEY'VE BEEN HERE, AND WE DON'T -- WE'RE NOT VERY WELL SET UP GENERALLY TO COVER REALLY THE INTRICACIES OF THAT STORY.

I'LL TELL YOU WHO IS REALLY THE HERO, THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE HAS DONE A LOT OF WORK.

BUT IT'S NOT AS SMOOTH -- THEY CAME HERE AND SETTLED, BUT THEY ACTUALLY SETTLED AND RE-SETTLED.

THERE'S A LOT MORE TO THIS STORY.

>> RAY, WE'LL STICK WITH YOU.

LET'S GO ON TO OUR THIRD TOPIC FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL IS NOW MULLING A PAY RAISE.

I THINK THE MEMBERS WHO SERVE ST. LOUIS COUNTY MAKE ABOUT $20,000 A YEAR.

THERE'S ONE PROPOSAL BY ERNIE TRAKAS TO TAKE THAT UP TO $60,000 A YEAR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IF THEY TOO GET A PAY RAISE, WILL IT BE ENFORCEABLE?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, ERNIE TRAKAS'S STREAK OF BEING WRONG IS, OF COURSE, INTACT, WHICH IS NO NEWS ITSELF.

I WILL SAY THIS.

IF WE'RE GOING TO PAY THE COUNCIL, WHEN YOU PAY RAISED ON RATINGS, I THINK THEY DESERVE AN INCREASE.

THEY CERTAINLY MADE MORE NEWS.

KNOWING THEM INDIVIDUALLY, I ACTUALLY THINK THEY SHOULD GET A PAY INCREASE BECAUSE -- NOT BECAUSE -- AND I KNOW IT'S EASY TO BEAT UP ON THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE POLITICIANS, BUT IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THEY GOT ONE AND WHEN YOU CONSIDER HOW MUCH WORK THEY DO, THEY SHOULD GET SOMETHING.

IT CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T BE $60,000.

IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A MODEST INCREASE, MAYBE STEPPED IN, AND IT SHOULDN'T THAN OUT OF LINE WITH WHAT COUNTY WORKERS GET, BUT HAVING SAID THAT, THEIR TIMING ISN'T THAT GOOD.

I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO PASS THE VOTERS AND I DO THINK THE VOTERS SHOULD HAVE TO APPROVE IT.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS -- >> I MEAN -- GO AHEAD.

>> GO AHEAD, ALVIN, GO AHEAD.

>> I'M JUST SAYING THAT I -- ALL JOBS, TECHNICALLY, AND I GUESS IN SOME WAYS INCREASE IS GUARANTEED, BUT BASED ON JOB PERFORMANCE, ESPECIALLY OVER THE LAST, YOU KNOW, YEAR AND A HALF AND EVEN LESS THAN THAT, REALLY, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

AND I THINK THAT MOST COUNTY RESIDENTS, NOT THE ONES HOLLERING AND SCREAMING, YOU KNOW, AT THE COUNCIL MEETINGS, NOT THE COUNCIL PEOPLE WHO ARE HONESTLY GOT AGENDAS, BUT BE THEY REPUBLICAN, BE THEY DEMOCRAT, I THINK THEY WOULD SAY, LISTEN, YOU CAN HAVE YOUR PHILOSOPHICAL POLITICAL DIFFERENCES.

I'D BE WILLING TO GIVE YOU A RAISE BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T HAD ONE IN A LONG TIME, BUT YOU CANNOT EMBARRASS ME, AND THE COUNTY COUNCIL HAS BEEN AN EMBARRASSMENT AND I'M NOT GIVING ANY PAY INCREASE TO PEOPLE WHO EMBARRASS THE EMPLOYER.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE AND THE COUNTY ARE THE EMPLOYERS.

>> I DON'T THINK THE COUNTY COUNCIL HAS BEEN AN EMBARRASSMENT.

I THINK THE INTERACTIONS -- NO, YOU CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT SAM PAGE HAS BEEN AS MUCH OF AN EMBARRASSMENT AS THE COUNCIL.

>> NO, THE COUNTY COUNCIL HAS BEEN AN EMBARRASSMENT.

>> I DON'T THINK THEY -- I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU.

I THINK IT'S THE INTERACTION -- >> PAGE A ONE HAND, TRAKAS ON THE OTHER HAND, RITA DAYS ON ONE HAND -- >> I DON'T THINK SAM PAGE SHOULD MAKE ALL THE DECISIONS WITH THE COVID MONEY.

>> THAT'S AN EMBARRASSMENT.

>> GIVING UP OVERSIGHT, HOW CAN YOU SAY THEY'RE NOT AN EMBARRASSMENT?

I DON'T THINK THEY'RE AN EMBARRASSMENT.

>> DID YOU SAY CLANCY, RAY?

>> NO, YOU WANT TO GO DOWN THE ROSTER?

>> I JUST DID.

>> THEY'RE FIVE FOR FIVE.

>> I THINK THE ONLY EMBARRASSMENT ON THE COUNTY COUNCIL IS ERNIE TRAKAS, HONESTLY.

I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE OTHER SIX ARE EMBARRASSING.

>> OH, NO, NO, NO, NO.

>> I DON'T AGREE WITH THEM, BUT I DON'T THINK -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> ABOUT ERNIE TRAKAS -- >> AT LEAST ERNIE TRAKAS -- >> I'M SORRY, RAISE YOUR HAND IF YOU'VE HAD A $60,000 SEXUAL HARASSMENT -- >> HE SAYS NO ON MASKS AND FIVE MONTHS LATER, I'M YES ON MASKS.

WHY DID WE GO DOWN THAT TRAIN?

WHY DID THAT FREIGHT TRAIN RUN OVER THE COMMUNITY?

>> BY THE WAY, I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD GET ANYTHING LIKE $60,000.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF TIME THEY HAVE TO DO INDIVIDUALLY, FORGET ABOUT YOUR POLITICS, WE'RE TALKING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, I DO NOT THINK IT'S UNREASONABLE TO SAY THAT $20,000 IS PRETTY PALTRY.

>> ALVIN, DIDN'T -- DIDN'T YOUR OWN FATHER SAY DON'T BEGRUDGE SOMEONE A SALARY?

>> HE DID.

THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

I DON'T THINK HE WAS TALKING ABOUT ELECTED OFFICIALS.

I DON'T THINK.

>> WHAT I THOUGHT WAS GREAT WAS ERNIE TRAKAS'S LEGISLATIVE AID BRINGING IN THE NUMBERS FROM HONOLULU -- THE HONOLULU, HAWAII, AND MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND, WHICH I'M PRETTY SURE IS A SUBURB OF WASHINGTON.

>> OH, IT IS, YEAH.

>> I MEAN, THAT'S -- >> I'LL TELL YOU -- >> IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCES OR THE APPLES AND ORANGES, I MEAN, THAT IS -- THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

WHAT I AM -- AS A COUNTY RESIDENT, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY YOU RUN FOR OFFICE, WHY YOU RUN FOR -- WHY YOU RUN FOR ANY OFFICE AND THEN YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT IT.

I DO BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE A PAY RAISE.

IT'S BEEN SINCE 2005, NOT A $60,000 PAY RAISE, THAT'S FOR SURE, BUT IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WORK, LET SOMEBODY WHO IS ENERGIZED GET IN THERE.

I REALIZE IT'S CHANGED.

THE WHOLE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

>> THAT'S LIKE SAYING NOBODY WHO HAS A JOB SHOULD ASK FOR A RAISE.

>> NO, NO, RAY, THESE PEOPLE RAN FOR ELECTION, PAID MONEY TO GET THE JOB.

THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY WANTED IT AND IT'S NOT LIKE A NORMAL WORKING PERSON.

>> THEY'RE NOT GETTING -- >> AND BASED ON EVERYBODY'S LIFE AND CAREER, THERE IS NOBODY ON THE COUNTY COUNCIL THAT'S HURTING FOR MONEY.

SO -- >> WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

THEY HAVE FAMILIES.

>> RAY IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YES, I DID SAY THAT.

YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT -- FOR THIS BUNCH OF ELECTED OFFICIALS, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE THERE FOREVER.

IT'S FOR THE POSITION, NOT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.

>> BUT YOU HAVE TO JUDGE BASED ON WHO'S SITTING AT THE TIME.

>> WELL, MAYBE THEY'RE GETTING PAID BY THE WORD.

HOPEFULLY WE ARE TOO.

>> I DON'T LIKE -- I DON'T AGREE, I SHOULD SAY, WITH MARK HARDER AND KIM FISHER, RUNS, BUT THEY BUST THEIR BUTT AND THEY WORK HARD AND THE IDEA THAT WE SHOULD JUDGE THEM ABOUT WHETHER WE THINK THEY'VE DONE A GOOD JOB BY OUR POLITICS, I THINK THE POSITION SHOULD PAY MORE THAN 20, I THINK IT'S REASONABLE.

>> WELL, YOU SOUND LIKE A MAN THAT MIGHT RUN FOR COUNTY COUNCIL.

>> NO, I DIDN'T SAY -- >> WE'LL FIND OUT.

LET'S MOVE ON.

WASN'T, THERE'S A NATIONAL STORY WITH ST. LOUIS CONNECTIONS.

IT REALLY WASN'T THAT LONG AGO.

IN FACT, I TALKED TO THE WOMAN WHEN SHE WAS IN PENNSYLVANIA RAISING MONEY FOR THE HOMELESS IN ST. LOUIS, REMARKABLE YOUNG GAL IN MANY WAYS.

MACKENZIE FIERCETON, FORMERLY MACKENZIE MORRISON WHO WENT FROM WHITFIELD TO THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, AN IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL, AND THEN YOU PROBABLY READ ABOUT HER IN NATIONAL PUBLICATIONS, INCLUDING OUR OWN PAPERS HERE THAT, SHE GOT A RHODES SCHOLARSHIP IN CAMBRIDGE, ENGLAND, AND THE PRESIDENT OF HER SCHOOL SAID THIS IS THE FIRST-GENERATION, LOW-INCOME FORMER FOSTER CARE STUDENTS AND THE UNIVERSITY WAS SO PROUD OF HER.

THEN THEY FOUND OUT LATER SHE TECHNICALLY WASN'T FIRST GENERATION.

AFTER ALL, HER MOTHER IS A RADIOLOGIST, SO SHE HAD TO HAVE GONE TO COLLEGE.

SHE WASN'T LOW INCOME FOR MOST OF HER LIFE UNTIL HER JUNIOR YEAR, SHE WAS LIVING WITH HER MOM IN A NICE SUBURB, AND SHE WENT TO WHITFIELD WHICH IS $30,000 A YEAR FOR TUITION, AND SHE WAS IN FOSTER CARE, BUT NOT HER ENTIRE LIFE.

SHE STARTED HER JUNIOR YEAR IN HIGH SCHOOL.

SO THE ISSUE WENT TO THE RHODES SCHOLARSHIP COMMITTEE AND THEY ASKED HER TO RESCIND HER APPLICATION AND SHE -- BUT NOW SHE'S COMING BACK.

SHE'S SUING THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, WHICH LEAKED THIS INFORMATION TO THE RHODES OFFICIALS, AND SHE'S SAYING THAT SHE LOST OUT AFTER SHE WAS PART OF A WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUIT AGAINST THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA AND THAT THIS IS RETALIATION ON THE SCHOOL'S PART.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS CASE?

DO YOU HAVE SOME SYMPATHY OR COMPASSION IN YOUR HEART FOR THIS GAL FROM ST. LOUIS?

>> TOO EARLY TO SAY WHETHER I HAVE ANY SYMPATHY OR COMPASSION FOR HER.

I DON'T HAVE MUCH COMPASSION FOR THE INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER LEARNING BECAUSE I THINK TWO OF THE MOST IMPORTANT WORDS THAT WE ALL LEARN AS ADULTS IS DUE DILIGENCE, AND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE A RHODES SCHOLARSHIP, BILL CLINTON, CHRIS CHRISTOPHER SON, TWO VERY POLAR EXAMPLES, BUT STILL, THIS -- >> ERIC GREITENS.

>> ERIC GREITENS, THANK YOU, BILL, THAT'S TRUE TOO.

BUT THIS IS A LIFE-ALTERING AWARD, AND SO I WOULD CHECK OUT EVERY STORY.

I WOULD VET EVERY SOURCE.

I WOULD VET, YOU KNOW -- I JUST THINK IT'S SAD BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY WOULD HAVE HAD THAT LIFE-ALTERING EXPERIENCE AND DONE WONDERFUL THINGS WITH IT.

CLEARLY THERE ARE HOLES IN HER STO STORY.

YOU KNOW, TO HAVE GONE TO WHITFIELD, TO HAVE TAKEN HORSEBACK RIDING LESSONS, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO ONE OF THE ARTICLES I WAS READING ABOUT THIS, I THINK IT'S JUST TOO EARLY TO TELL.

I JUST THOUGHT THE TIMING WAS KIND OF IRONIC WITH THIS WHOLE THARANOS TRIAL AND ELIZABETH HOLMES BECAUSE IT'S APPARENTLY VERY IN VOGUE RIGHT NOW TO FAKE IT UNTIL YOU MAKE IT, AND THAT SADDENS ME, BUT MAYBE THAT'S WHAT WAS GOING ON HERE.

I HAVE NO IDEA.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, SHE CHECKED ALL THE BOXES.

SHE CHECKED A LOT OF BOXES.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS WHAT BOX GOT CHECKED THAT SHE SKATED INTO THIS SCHOOL WITHOUT THIS GOING ON BECAUSE, YOU'RE RIGHT, WENDY, THE UNIVERSITY, WHAT WAS IT THAT GOT HER THIS SCHOLARSHIP INSTEAD OF WHOEVER IT WAS, LIKE RIGHT BEHIND HER.

BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT ANYBODY SAYS, HER BEING IN GOT ONE PERSON FROM BEING OUT.

>> EXACTLY.

>> AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO WAS THAT PERSON WHO WAS OUT AND WHY DID SHE GET IN.

>> I THINK SHE GOT IN BECAUSE THE NARRATIVE WAS THAT SHE WAS A -- SHE GOT OUT OF FOSTER CARE, THAT SHE HAD COUCH SURFED FROM ONE HOME TO ANOTHER AND SHE WAS FIRST GENERATION COLLEGE AND LOW INCOME.

>> AND I GUARANTEE YOU PEOPLE ELIGIBLE FOR RHODES SCHOLARS THAT AND NIDE FOR IT, THERE WOULD BE MORE THAN A HANDFUL THAT HAD EVEN WORSE STORIES.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING ABOUT IT IS THE WAY THAT -- YOU KNOW, WHEN HER STORY UNRAVELED AND IT WAS CLEAR THAT SHE HAD AT THE VERY LEAST EXAGGERATED PARTS OF IT, SHE JUST DOUBLED DOWN.

I MEAN, THIS IS A POST-FACT WORLD WE LIVE IN WHERE NOBODY EVER -- YOU NEVER GET CAUGHT BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS ON VIDEOTAPE.

DR. CHAN SAYING HE WAS JOSTLED, THE McCLOSKEYS SAYING THE MOB WAS -- PEOPLE SAY IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY, THEY JUST FORGE AHEAD.

SO SHE SAID I DID EXAGGERATE THAT, I GREW UP IN CHESTERFIELD.

SHE'S DEFIANT.

SHE SAID, I'M OUTRAGED THAT THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE ME.

I MEAN, SHE'S A 21st CENTURY WOMAN AND -- >> BUT IN HER DEFENSE -- >> CAN I SAY SOMETHING, CHARLIE?

I AGREE WITH THAT AND I'LL SAY THIS.

POINT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE, I KNOW WHITFIELD WELL AND I KNOW IT'S KIND OF TANGENTIAL TO THE STORY, BUT IT'S SUCH A GREAT INSTITUTION AND THERE'RE STRONG SUIT IS INTEGRITY AND I HOPE PEOPLE DON'T ASSOCIATE WHITFIELD WITH HER.

I'LL GO SO FAR AS TO SAY I DO NOT FINE HER CREDIBLE, BUT AS WENDY SAYS, I GUESS WE'LL LET THE STORY PLAY OUT.

>> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, BUT AT THE TIME OF HER APPLICATION, SHE WAS IN FOSTER CARE AND SHE WAS TAKEN FROM THE HOME BY THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES BY THE STATE, DIVISION OF FAMILY SERVICE, I GUESS IT IS.

SHE WAS LOW INCOME BY VIRTUAL OF BEING A FOSTER CHILD AND ACCORDING TO SOME DEFINITIONS FROM THE UNIVERSITY'S OWN WEBSITE, SHE COULD BE CONSIDERED FIRST GENERATION.

>> SCHAERL -- CHAERGE, IF YOU'RE GOING TO SAY, MENTION THAT THE CASE, THE WOMAN ENDED UP -- THE MOTHER HAD HER CRIMINAL HISTORY OR ACCUSATIONS COMPLETELY EXPUNGED AND I THINK YOU HAVE TO MENTION THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO SAY SHE WAS TAKEN INTO FOSTER CARE.

>> SHE WAS TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE OF HER ACCUSATIONS.

>> RIGHT, ACCUSATIONS AFTER THREE YEARS, THEY NOT ONLY DIDN'T FIND THEM TO BE CREDITABLE, BUT THEY TOOK THE UNUSUAL STEP OF EXPUNGING THE MOTHER'S RECORD.

SO I'M JUST SAYING -- >> AND THIS IS A MOTHER, YOU GUYS, WHO -- AS YOU NOTICED, SHE'S STILL PLEADING FOR HER DAUGHTER AND SAYING THAT I LOVE MY DAUGHTER, I WANT HER TO THRIVE.

I MEAN, IT'S HEARTBREAKING TO READ, REALLY.

>> FAIR ENOUGH, FAIR ENOUGH.

>> TELL YOU WHAT, SHE SHOULD GO TO ST. LOUIS COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

THAT'S WHERE SHE SHOULD GO.

>> THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

>> GOOD POINT, CHARLIE.

>> BILL McCLELLAN, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT JOHN HAYDEN, CHIEF OF POLICE FOR THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, WHO ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO RETIRE IN LATE FEBRUARY AS HE ANNOUNCED.

IT LOOKS AS THOUGH THE MAYOR OF ST. LOUIS, TISHAURA JONES, WAS NOT TOO HAPPY WITH THE PICKS OF THE TWO FINAL CANDIDATES FOR POLICE CHIEF THAT WERE BEING RECOMMENDED BY THE PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT WHICH THEN WENT TO THE PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR.

SO SHE -- THERE WERE TWO CANDIDATES, TWO WHITE GUYS.

SHE WAS LOOKING FOR MORE DIVERSITY.

IT LOOKS LIKE JOHN HAYDEN SAID, OKAY, I'LL STAY ON AS CHIEF GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> YEAH, AND THE WHOLE THING IS A MESS AND IT GOES TO CITY CONTROL.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THE STATE HAD CONTROL, THE POLICE FORCE PICKED THE NEW CHIEF AND WHO KNEW WHO AND THE WAY IT IS IN LIFE A LOT, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN CITY CONTROL AND THE PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE SAY IN IT, AND WITH THE FIRST MAYOR WITH THE LOCAL CONTROL, LYDA KREWSON, SHE SAID TO THE PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT, OKAY, LET'S HIRE AN OUTSIDE CONSULTANT AND THEY SAID, OKAY, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, RICHARD FRANK, NOW RETIRED PERSONNEL DIRECTOR, WHEN TISHAURA JONES SAID LET'S HIRE AN OUTSIDE CONSULTANT, HE SAID NO, I'LL DO THIS.

SO HE ENDS UP WITH MIKE SACKS AND LARRY O'TOOLE AND I KNOW BOTH FELLOWS, AND LARRY O'TOOLE WOULD HAVE BEEN A FINE CHIEF, BUT THIS IS THE 21st CENTURY AND I THINK THAT THE MAYOR OUGHT TO BE ALLOWED TO SELECT THE NEW CHIEF.

>> SO YOUR WORDS HAVE TO BE THE LAST ONES, I'M SORRY, BECAUSE MY FAULT, WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

HAD SO MUCH FUN, I LET THE CLOCK ESCAPE ME.

I TELL YOU WHAT, WE'LL CUT IT OFF HERE, BUT YOU AND I WILL BE JOIN BY RHONDA HAMM-NIEBRUEGGE, WHO'S THE HEAD OF THE ST. LOUIS AIRPORT, LAMBERT FIELD, AND SHE'S GOING TO JOIN US ON NEXT UP IN JUST A MOMENT.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.