Any.

You don't know if there is anything.

I for any reason.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of nine PBS.

Hey, thanks for joining us for another edition of Donnybrook.

Lots of hot topics in this very overheated week.

Let's meet the panelists who have agreed to discuss them, starting with Wendy Louise from KCRW's.

Bill McClellan from your Post-Dispatch.

Ray Hartmann from KCRW's The Riverfront Times and Ross Story dot com.

And Mr. Elvin Reed from The Saint Louis American.

Well, Bill, I wish I had a nickel for every time you sat in a courtroom and watched a legal case and there was a very famous one, maybe even of national interest this week in Saint Louis, when Stephan Cannon was on trial for the murder of the late retired Saint Louis police captain Dave Dorn.

And Cannon was found guilty even though the main witness, Mark Jackson, could not produce a weapon, police couldn't find one.

He hadn't actually seen the crime, and he had told police, I'll tell you anything you want, if you get me out of jail, Wasn't a great prosecution.

Not a great witness, but nonetheless, a victory for the circuit attorney's office, huh?

Oh, yeah, sure.

And I thought, you know, there was videotape up involved and it seemed like it was a difficult case, but I thought it worked out the way it should have.

And hats off to Marvin Tir.

He's the new prosecutor in Kim Gardner's office.

And if you remember, back in September, Miss Gardner went to court to ask for a special prosecutor for the Dawn case because it was going to be so important.

And the judge, Michael Seltzer, said, you're the elected prosecutor.

You got to do it.

And good for her.

She hired Marvin Teer, and he's a former special prosecutor from the AG's office.

And he was a municipal judge here in Saint Louis.

And he's a fine attorney.

And this is the first case he's done for Miss Gardner.

And his first case in 22 years.

He said in the paper today, and I apparently he did a great job.

I wasn't there, but.

I wrote a column about Martin Marvin, Dear Marvin Tear about about a decade ago, I'd say it was a magazine.

I had a first person experience with him as a judge and a traffic court case, and I wrote it.

And full disclosure, he he sought the right and exonerated me.

But he is just a remarkable guy.

And you're right Kim Garner actually it tried in 20, 20 to get the case at that time sent to Eric Schmidt because she they apparently their her prosecutor had a conflict of some sort.

I will say this.

I think she just didn't have any experience because there was not a conflict.

That's what still.

I don't know.

Well, in any case, I will say this, you know, it was a victory.

As you said, if Kim Gardner had lost that case it would been a major national news story.

So there was some pressure on Marvin to her.

And I think he did a great job.

And they I do think it's good for the Dawn family and for all saying, oh, he was a wonderful guy.

David Doran, and it's good that there's some closure.

I would just add that taking away from anything from from, you know, the prosecutor's office, the prosecutor I think I could have won that case.

I mean, I don't care that the guy had, you know, lied in this part.

Whatever.

Sammy the Bull Gravano testified he murdered 17 people with his bare hands and sent somebody to prison.

I think that you had the testimony of someone who was there, and that's that videotape.

And I'm glad it's over.

As Ray said, you all sad for the family because that was such an awful part of of that night, you know, that he had he had gone up to try to help a friend when they received the alarm and that that that awful thing happened.

And so but but but but, OK, today the judge dropped three charges against Mark Jackson, the guy who had turned state's witness against Stefon Cannon and just as a legal principle, I mean, that's that's quid pro quo now that happens.

Well, yeah, that's that's the way the system works, though, Charlie.

I know it is a problem for me because we've had more than 3000 wrongful convictions overturned, about three and 75 by the Innocence Project alone, based on DNA evidence.

We know that witnesses are just not that good.

Yeah, we do know that.

We do know that.

And that's the price you pay.

But that's the cost of doing business.

I mean, that's just how it's got to be.

I mean, you get a witness from that night who was looting the pawnshop.

You're not going to.

Get your limited right.

You're so you're saying that a compromised witness is better than no way?

Yes.

Yes.

I'm sorry.

I got problems with that.

Also, the.

Interesting thing about this case that we lose sight of is this was a national story.

If you remember and during went up to the Republican convention on behalf of Donald Trump and her daughters came out and and and criticized.

For not a shorter.

His his history, his excuse me.

Right.

His daughters came out and criticized.

So this case had national and it was covered today.

I actually wrote for Ross story about he in this case was covered.

They they left out the victory they just talked about you know somebody convicted in the in the play right you know protester you know convicted but it was a big story.

That's right.

Well, let's move on to you, Elvin Corey Bush, US representative running for reelection big August primary, was arrested this week outside the Supreme Court building.

She's upset with the Roe versus Wade Wade landmark ruling being overturned.

Also, this week, it was discovered that some former political operatives for the former US representative, Lacy Clay, have started a dark money fund, a Bible and C for which is quite legal, if even though some people will object to it, basically it's a PAC that raises money and the donors are anonymous so where do you want to begin with the IRS?

Well, I'll begin with the arrest because I believe and I beyond believe this I wish would have been arrested doing this, whether she was running for reelection right now or not, I think she thinks it's the right thing to do and I think it's the right thing to do to and I think a lot of people and a lot of different positions, politics, business, whatever, are going to have to make some decisions like this.

And it's just time.

I mean, you know, what is going on in the nation right now is is so just disheartening and distasteful to me that, you know, it's just it's just time.

I mean, either we're going to work those of us who feel this way to stop this now because it has to stop now or else it's just going to keep going and going and going.

So I have no problem with her and 16 other Democrats being arrested.

I wish the day would come where some Republicans were out there, too, because the fate of the nation is really in the balance right now.

Now, as for this dark money, I mean, it's everything that, you know, you assail Greitens for and the Trumps for and different candidates for, and you're doing it yourself.

So now you can't complain about that anymore.

And I'm not speaking specifically of the Roberts campaign, but be it any Democrat guy like right night next time somebody else does it.

Well, don't say anything.

Democrats are doing it.

The ACLU has a five to one C for dark money.

George Soros has a dark money PAC.

This is you know, Citizens United.

That's what this is.

You know, you can have these PACs.

You ought to disclose your donors.

I think in that case, I think there are a lot of people, whether they're with Boeing or Jewish organizations or with the police, they want Cory Bush out of there, but they don't necessarily want people to know they're donating.

Oh, I mean, OK, that's, you know, good for them.

But to me, like, why don't you want people to know that you're donating, right?

I mean, what they do, privacy.

They won't do business with us or whatever, maybe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, OK. Well then that they don't want people picketing or protest outside their homes, as I kind of said.

All right.

To me, in my mind, it's on now.

I am so beyond all this trying to hide and trying to all this look, what side are you on pick now if you don't want her in office, give all the money you can to get her out of office, OK?

And then let's just let's can we just start really honest being honest about things?

And I think that would help us.

Well, you know, I think that you can be in favor of all the things you're in favor of Alvin and think that the country has gone too far, but think that Corey Busch's theatrical approach to things isn't the best way to go?

Well, I think it is in this case, and she's not alone.

There's a lot of folks that got arrested, and I think it was an act of principle.

I think they were there.

I admire her for it.

And I think that as to your point about Citizens United, there's no no one's ever suggested that it's all on one side or another.

I think probably the Republicans appear to be better at it right now.

But I mean, that's that can change.

And that you're right, it's not one side necessarily.

But I'm not OK with elected representatives.

Getting arrested.

I mean, I know that that they don't suspend.

It's civil.

Disobedience.

I understand.

I mean, I understand.

I just pro-life representatives.

I think it wouldn't.

Do what they want to do.

I don't think it's effective.

I don't think I think Republicans who changed Roe versus Wade were shutting down Highway 6440.

What they did was they reconfigure state legislatures.

They registered people to vote.

That's right.

They got the Supreme Court.

I mean, it's lobbying.

I guess.

I guess Martin Luther King wasn't a he was I mean, I guess he was ineffective.

And then there were people.

In this town arguing against Martin Luther about that.

Right, in the sixties.

No, I think it's a very effective of time matter tradition.

Actually disagree with me.

Not arrested.

I'd say good luck with that.

Absolutely.

I would say, you know what?

Oh, probably in his autobiography, the former US Congressman Barney Frank of Massachusetts, like a book was called Being Frank.

And he he said, you know, look, if you want to get things done, you don't parade in the streets.

You have to work the system.

And and he said, and you look at what went when gay marriage was overturned, it wasn't because people were marched in the streets.

They got it through litigation.

OK, the Supreme Court, well, that's all fine and dandy.

But I'm just telling you, as a black person sitting here, what you're talking about right now is like, oh, that's fine.

Let's let's let's wait.

Let's wait.

Let's just wait till they over register people to vote.

Right and so the state of Mississippi can say we ain't going have interracial marriage down here, OK?

Or like, how about we just vote all the black people out of this?

And the Supreme Court has said, I.

Do you really any.

Action necessary need be taken now?

I'm OK that do you really think that.

Sounds a lot like what was going on January six?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That was a violent insurrection.

What are you talking about?

Was she violent or whatever?

Was she by.

And all means, I believe, is what he just.

Said.

No.

What did you say to.

That one guest we had a couple of weeks ago?

Oh, I see.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No.

Excuse me.

But the violent insurrection attempt to end our democracy is not quite the same as peaceful disobey, OK?

And and and I'm.

Sorry to they come arrest.

And here's the deal.

Here's the deal.

Mark, by your definition, the I guess the civil disobedience didn't have anything to do with the civil rights progress we had in this country.

And it didn't have any do it ended in the war when it did.

I guess none of that mattered.

I disagree with you a lot on this.

I do, too.

OK, OK. You're on the record.

You're not the first and you probably won't be the last.

We still have 15 minutes ago.

And I know what you've been that.

All right.

How about a show?

15 about 11.

And I need to set a couple of things.

Michelle's at the table and I ain't going anywhere.

You know.

My senior endorsed Lucas Cruz this past week.

Lucas Koontz is in that Democratic primary for U.S. Senate up against Trudie Bush it was interesting because early on, she was getting all the top endorsements, including from AI, James Emanuel Cleaver and others.

All of the establishment yeah.

All if you consider them establishment.

Maybe so.

But nonetheless, OK, what do you think about this?

Is Lucas Koontz on to something he got Jon Hamm to support him in a fundraiser as well.

See, I kind of think I was I was disappointed with the with the language that our esteemed former long time congressman used.

I thought it was to me, it's kind of it's hypocritical to say that prejudice toward a woman because of her financial standing or, you know, blessings or whatever, she's an heiress.

She wants to do she wants to do well.

She wants to serve the people of her state.

And so when he uses language like Lucas Koontz wasn't born with a silver spoon, you know, all of the populist tropes and all of that wasn't born with a silver spoon.

The only ball that that just I don't I just don't think that's necessary.

And to me, it really it's it's unkind.

It's you know, I thought when we go low, they go when they go low, we go.

High how did that work?

I'm sorry.

No, but I just I think he's I think he's better than that.

And I think if hate isn't going to win, you can't attack the woman who's a nurse.

Who has six kids, who wants to do something service related for her state, and she has decided to run for the Senate.

I think there are other ways to wordsmith your way into any kind of criticism you have of her.

But I thought it was snarky and it wasn't worthy of somebody of his stature.

I think history remember Bill Clay as the premiere civil rights leader in the history of our community.

And by the way, he participated in a bank.

This a gesture at Jefferson Bank, civil disobedience that apparently you don't think is so good.

I, I think that he's right.

I mean, look, I'll be all happy to rush and vote for 20 Bush Valentine if she's the primary because she'll be all that stands.

She pretty well and if she is good, I'll support him.

And I will say this.

You mentioned Citizens United and her very first town hall.

She did she she got a question about Citizens United and turned to some what did that do?

So I mean, it's.

Just.

Ugly Ray.

I think.

Ugly.

It's what happened yeah.

I think she didn't know what she studied.

She didn't know what citizenship, racism.

You know, it's a mess.

Ugly was it ugly?

We Jean.

Carnahan might not have known when she was.

Appointed, but then you could appoint her.

I'm sorry.

She's running.

She's not running a very great race.

We're really being criticized for not campaigning.

And I've criticized.

It, and we found.

The argument that her supporters would make.

Is that so?

Much of this politics is gotcha stuff.

It's like, what would you do about a fellow or whatever?

The town was in Syria.

And the candidate said, what town.

Is that?

Right.

You know, I mean, the fact that she this was a landmark Supreme Court case about you know, not everybody knows that she should stick to nursing.

My point is, I don't.

And by the way, I think.

A minute ago you were saying you'd vote.

Five.

Well, she could stay denied, but she's not nearly as.

And by the way, I hit on Spencer Toder, who from Stiglitz County, who I really don't know much about until I had him on.

He would make a terrific senator.

And you can tell talking to him that he knows the issues, as does Lucas Coons.

Now, I think.

Lawmakers will know now let.

Me tell you something.

Let me tell you something.

I didn't watch the whole speech that she gave to the Chesterfield Democrats, but I did see the first 8 minutes or so.

And she said she wants attack opioids, mental health and she wants to raise the pay for caregivers like in nursing homes.

I think that's really important.

Yeah, that's.

Right.

And now I'm not saying that she is the next.

Lucas Coons is the only Democrat at this point.

Spencer Turner, I really was impressed with.

But I would say Lucas Coons connects outstate, I think in a three way race.

If it's Greitens and John Wood and Lucas Coons, the Democrats have it in play probably.

I don't.

Know.

All right.

It's not going to go well.

And I think he's got a chance to be.

It can't be.

There's no way he can do.

I think he can beat Schmidt because Schmidt sued on.

The idea that I like Lucas, too.

But the idea that you have to attack Trudie Bush Valentine.

Oh, what do you mean?

You're not calling it out with this?

You're.

I'm calling out.

This is not gotcha politics.

It's that catch.

Yes, it is.

He's not ready for this state.

Let me ask you this.

I know she's moved.

On to someone else you admire deeply.

Mike Parson, governor of Missouri, said, as opposed to giving everybody some sort of revealing.

No Citizens United ratio, you should.

Like.

Yeah.

There you go.

Well, it's not entirely clear.

Yes, OK, I would I mean.

The governor wants a tax cut from 5.4 to 4.7%.

Before we hear what you have to say, I do know that there are areas of the country like Nashville and Austin that are booming and there's no income tax whatsoever.

And do we really.

Need the.

Money?

If there's all this money from the Rams and the federal government, we can't even figure out how to spend it and we don't pull over people for expired plates, weren't paying their personal property tax, their sales tax.

How badly what does the state of Missouri really need that?

First of all, I don't think the Ramsey money has anything to do with the state of Missouri.

But I mean, the state Missouri's general operating budget, I would say this, if someone wants to put together a comprehensive plan to change our tax structure and eliminate the income tax.

But here's what we're going to do in its place and here's our overall idea of actually bring more revenues.

I think that's worth talking about, to simply cut revenues in the 40 something state meaning we're 40 or 50 in paying our employees.

We're 49th or 48th and teacher salaries.

We're the same in support of higher education, corrections.

Everything is no, there's no honor in that, OK, we have a substandard state government because it's underfunded.

If you're going to change the income tax, you've got to have something in its place.

It's irresponsible to cut it in a vacuum.

You weren't against child tax credits you were against, said handing $500 checks out in the city of Saint Louis.

Why didn't you say then that money should have gone to teacher salaries?

As I said, you know, what?

I'm not against every tax cut.

I'm saying that in the case of the state of Missouri, which cannot fund its services at a respectable level, compared to almost all the other states in the country, it's irresponsible to just eliminate a big source of revenue without anything.

It's not I just don't think it's thought out.

I really don't.

I think they should just like he can leave office and say I cut taxes.

Right.

And that's all it is.

And I don't think it's thought out.

And I think that if you do take an action like that, you know who's going to feel it first?

Because ultimately somebody is and they just talk I mean, they say surplus.

And we know that people are struggling with inflation.

So if you give them money back on April 15th, isn't that a good thing?

We might not.

We don't know where we're going to be at in six months.

You know it, right?

There's nothing wrong with having some money laying around.

Charles.

Yeah, well, we have like $1,000,000,000 laying around in the.

City that we.

We.

Can't even spending.

At the moment.

I think that Ray has a good point that our services are terrible and education.

I mean, we could spruce up the universities.

Well, junior college is the high school.

We need to spend money on education.

And we could do more and spruce them up.

We could cut tuition, which has gone through the roof I may say, for state schools, we could also improve our teacher salaries around the state.

And the only when you say we can't.

A fast track because.

You say we can't spend it, it's because the Republican legislature won't.

Spend about that.

We know it's true.

OK.

So OK, will they care for when unless the Rams money goes to schools and teachers, will you be upset?

I actually have a column next week in which I lay out.

I think it ought to be.

You certainly think some of it.

Yes, that's I mean.

I guess my whether.

I'm upset or not until I see where the money is going.

But if it doesn't go to some of those things, then I will.

Be next week.

I got some suggestions we could argue about that.

Well, sounds good, Ray.

We look forward to your columns every week.

No, we don't.

But that's OK. How about a couple of moments on Mark Comer now?

I don't think most people in our listening audience or viewing audience.

No, Mark Coomer.

Right.

OK, very well.

Mark Coomer wants to run for Board of Aldermen in the president Board of Aldermen City of St Louis, but he hasn't really lived in St Louis for five years since 1997.

And you have to live in the city for five years to be a candidate.

So Jack Koetter and Megan Greene, the other candidates in the race say he should be bounced.

Right.

You agree.

With that?

Yes, I do not.

I had, I had him on the air.

I'll say that I he is.

All over your shows a lot.

Yeah I know.

We're plugging him as much as we can.

He is the big 558 and I loved the he did a markup.

Mark Coomer is the only one of the three who grew up in St Louis.

He's from St Louis.

He's much of his life here he contests the facts of not that and we'll see they are using I think it says very it speaks very poorly particularly Koetter but I guess both of them that they are and it also suggests to me that they're concerned about his candidacy.

This young guy went out in a 44 he went out and got them so I say yes relative.

Well I was going to say it could be half my age at all but he he's, he got well over the signatures he needed.

I think he, he makes a lot of sense on issues and I think that they are concerned about running against him because they wouldn't be doing this.

I think that if you are in a situation where you have move back and you were supposed to live someplace five years and you didn't fulfill that requirement, and you are bounced from the ballot, then that's I don't say it's too bad because I don't think they're not doing anything wrong by telling him you really shouldn't be on the ballot if it's upheld.

Right.

That's just they're not that's the rules.

I think he's going to I think he's going to prevail.

We'll see.

I think if he prevails, they got a problem, in my opinion.

But we'll see.

We'll see.

It's going to it probably will be.

Encouraging need some name recognition to win.

I mean, I don't think that Cooma or Comer really has much of a chance.

OK, well, listen.

Elvin Reed, this week, the St Louis County Council did not vote to approve 1.2 million at 1.2.

5 million federal dollars to help women who are seeking abortions, of course is in reaction to the overturning of Roe versus Wade.

It was 4231 Democrats.

Linda Webb went with the three Republicans.

What's your analysis here?

Disappointed.

This is just completely disappointing.

Whatever her rationale or reasoning is, it's not good enough and I think it should be held against her when she runs again.

Well, she and Tim Fitch both said that this is just this is opening the door to a legal challenge on the part of the AG and then it's just going to be tangled up in court and.

Let's go to court.

So, yeah, OK.

So I.

Meanwhile, I'll be in street.

You know, you you file cases.

That go to court will be doing this and somebody else do something else.

Oh, peacefully, but no.

So what?

So come on, Eric Schmidt.

So you like this?

You like.

I think.

I think what still on the Web did was I think that is effective governance and I think it's kind of.

Refreshing.

Well, I think she's wrong.

But I also think now that you mentioned Eric Schmidt as some unbeatable force in Republican politics, he sued almost every school district in a state that is.

Not dorm parents.

OK, you're happy about it.

A lot of them aren't at and a lot of school.

I will tell you, if he thinks that's, you know, part of he wants to think he might he might be very beatable.

A little little bit off subject, but said that was the American Recovery Plan Act money wasn't intended for people who are seeking abortions.

I mean, so you really aren't being a good steward of the federal dollars if on the local level that's where you're putting your money and it's going to come.

On.

Alvin Fairview Heights you don't need to subsidize transportation to Fairview Heights.

I was elected by the people who I represent.

And if the people represent don't like what I'm doing, then, then then vote me out.

In the meantime, all hands on deck.

And if you don't want to be part of this scrap, then you just need to step down because this is a scrap and if you want to find some reason, who are they going to sue?

They're going to do this when they did it.

Just go away.

OK, it's time.

All right.

Everybody's got to look in the mirror and say, what side are you on?

And she was on the wrong side.

Couldn't get money.

We have 30 seconds to go.

Couldn't that money be easily raised privately?

I don't know.

But the money is right there.

I bet we could do it in 24 hours.

Raise $1,000,000 for that.

Well that that money is sitting right there.

And if they want it to vote, to use it for that cause and get sued and say you can't do it, then you go down that path until that path is blocked off and then find another path, as we often say, too many topics, too little time.

Let's go to the old mailbag and see what viewers had to say.

Happy birthday.

Bill.

From the Donnybrook cast and crew here in beautiful grand center.

It's true.

On Saturday, Bill will celebrate another one.

45.

You're just not going to say which one because it's nobody's business.

Well, I'm I'm very public about 75.

Wow.

Yes.

And I've made it this far without being able to name all the Supreme Court cases.

Oh, yes.

We'll let that go.

You can run for this.

Happy birthday.

Mr..

Happy birthday to you.

Happy birthday.

Thank you.

Very much.

Now, do I have to try to blow this out on camera?

No.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's it for this week's edition.

Thanks for joining us at this.

Rather unusual time, we encourage you to contact us and tweet about Donnybrook and more.

Will see you next week.

At this time, our very special guest will be the secretary of state for the State of Missouri.

Jay Ashcroft will be joining Ray and me next up.

That's next week.

Have a great week.

Stay cool.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of nine PBS just.