>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US, AND ON THE SECOND HALF, NEXT UP, ALVIN AND WENDY WILL BE INTERVIEWING BOB CLARK, THE FOUNDING -- THE FOUNDER AND THE EXECUTIVE CHAIRMAN OF CLAYCO, TRYING TO BRING THE NEXT WORLD'S FAIR TO THE UNITED STATES.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT, BUT FIRST LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS AROUND OUR BROWN TABLE FOR THIS EDITION OF THE SHOW.

STARTING WITH WENDY WIESE FROM KTRS.

MR. JOE HOLLEMAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH AND STLTODAY.COM, SITTING IN FOR BILL.

RAY HARTMANN FROM RAW STORY.COM, THE BIG 550 KTRS AND THE RIVERFRONT TIMES.

AND ALVIN REID WITH THE RIFT TIMES -- EXCUSE ME, THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN.

>> IS HE REPLACING -- >> I BET YOU'RE THE LAST TO KNOW, RAY.

ALVIN, STORY ABOUT THAT.

WE'LL START WITH YOU.

TIM LOHMAR, THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY FOR ST. CHARLES COUNTY HAS BEEN ARRESTED.

IT WAS JUNE THE 1st, LAST FRIDAY, IN LAKE OF THE OZARKS ON SUSPICION OF DRIVING DRUNK, AND SO NOW HE FACES THESE DUI CHARGES.

OF COURSE, HE IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, BUT IF EAHE IS GUILTY, CAN HE STILL LEAD AN OFFICE IN ST. CHARLES COUNTY THAT PROSECUTES DRUNK DRIVERS?

>> NO, IF HE WERE TO BE FOUND GUILTY, I THINK HE SHOULD STEP DOWN, I REALLY DO.

I UNDERSTAND HE WAS VOTED IN AND IF THE PEOPLE WANT TO CONTINUE TO VOTE HIM IN, THAT MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW -- I WOULDN'T DO IT, BUT I REALLY THINK HE SHOULD STEP DOWN AND HERE'S WHY.

ONE, PROSECUTORS ARE SUPPOSEDLY SUPPOSED TO BE ABOVE THE LAW.

YOU LOOK TO THEM FOR JUSTICE.

I KNOW IT'S POLITICAL AND THIS AND THAT, BUT IT'S THE HIGHEST RANKING LAW OFFICIAL IN YOUR CITY OR STATE.

AND THEN HOW DO YOU PROSECUTE DWI CASES?

I'M AN ATTORNEY AND THE BIG NAMES AND WHATNOT, I CAN'T GET A FAIR CASE THERE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE ESCAPED HIS AND SO NOW YOU'RE GOING TO -- NOW HE'S GOING TO SAY THAT I'M GUILTY?

I THINK YOU GET ENOUGH JURORS TO SAY, NO, NO, I GOT A LITTLE PROBLEM HERE.

IF HE'S NOT GUILTY, HE SHOULD STEP DOWN AND HE SHOULD CONSIDER STEPPING DOWN ANYWAY, AND STRIKE TWO, HE DID HAVE A LITTLE THING GOING ON WITH -- >> A KERFUFFLE.

>> YEAH, WITH THE EX-GIRLFRIEND AND HE APOLOGIZE, BUT IT WAS STILL A TAWDRY SCENE.

>> I THINK IT CERTAINLY HINGES ON WHETHER OR NOT HE'S SQUICTED OR PLEADS -- CONVICTED OR PLEEPD GUILTY TO IT, BUT IT DOESN'T GIVE A GOOD LOOK NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.

BUT I THINK IT'S ONE OF THOSE, BECAUSE YOU WERE ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE, LET'S HEAR WHAT HIS CASE IS.

HE'S SAYING I'M NOT GUILTY AND I'LL BE EXONERATED IN THE GLEEND BUT THAT WASN'T THE CASE WITH JOHN CARLOS MOHAMMED AND LEWIS REED AND JEFFREY BOYD.

THEY IMMEDIATELY STEPPED DOWN.

>> THEY ARE LAWMAKERS.

IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE MAKING THE LAWS AND THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY -- >> IF WE FORCE EVERY POLITICIAN WHO'S INDICTED OF A CRIME TO QUIT, THERE WILL BE NOBODY LEFT IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE OR CITY COUNCIL.

BUT I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.

EVEN THOUGH IT SOUNDS FUNNY OR HUMOROUS, I THINK THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE THE PROSECUTOR IS THE ONE IN CHARGE WITH UPHOLDING THE LAW AS OPPOSED TO THE PEOPLE MAKING LAWS OR MAKING DECISIONS, AND ALSO, AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE WASN'T A LOT OF RECORDED WIRETAP TAPE OF TIM LOHMAR SAYING LET'S ALL DRINK AND DRIVE, WHICH IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

>> AND YOU REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING WHEN YOU SAID THAT.

HERE'S ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH IT.

FOR HIM TO, LET'S SAY, BEAT THIS RAP, HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO DISCREDIT A POLICE OFFICER AND IF I'M A POLICE OFFICER, NO MATTER WHERE I AM IN THE STATE, AND I SAY, OH, OKAY, SO THE NEXT TIME, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY'S ON US FOR DOING OUR JOB WRONG, REMIND YOURSELF, PROSECUTOR, THAT WAS THE FIRST PLACE YOU WENT.

THE ATTACK IS GOING TO BE THAT SOMETHING WAS DONE WRONG DURING HIS ARREST.

I'M SURE THEY CAN FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH HE HAD TO DRINK, YOU KNOW, SO -- >> GOOD POINT, CUTTING OFF THE DEFENSE FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

>> I SUPPORT TAKING THE PROCESS TO ITS CONCLUSION, BUT THE FIRST THOUGHT I HAD WAS ALL OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE OUTCRY ABOUT KIM GARDNER, WHO IN THE WORLD PUT HER IN OFFICE.

THE VOTERS.

SAME THING WITH TIM LOHMAR.

>> AND I THINK THAT -- I WANT IT TO NOT GET TOO MUCH INTO WHAT-ABOUTISM.

I THINK TIM LOHMAR HAS DONE A GOOD JOB AS A PROSECUTOR, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DO, AND I DON'T REALLY FIND FAULT WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

I SORT OF END UP, AND GOD KNOWS IF KIM GARDNER DID THIS FOR REAL, ERIC SCHMITT WOULD HAVE ALREADY MARCHED DOWN FROM JEFF CITY WITH THE STATE HIGHWAY PATROL.

>> WELL, SHE WAS IN A SIMILAR SITUATION -- >> SHE WASN'T DRUNK AND DRIVING.

>> CHRISTMAS EVE, SHE WAS DRIVING AROUND WITHOUT HER LIGHTS ON.

>> DOWNTOWN.

>> NOT DRUNK.

>> NO, BUT JUST EXPLAINING WHAT THEY DID.

SHE WAS DRIVING WITH HER LIGHTS OFF AND ACCUSED THE POLICE OFFICER FOR PULLING HER OVER FOR NO REASON AND SAID SHE WAS HELT FOR HALF AN HOUR AND IT WAS EIGHT MINUTES.

>> WELL, SHE WASN'T JEOPARDIZING LIVES -- >> WELL, UNLESS YOU LEVER -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> YOU'RE BLAMING -- >> YOU'RE GOING TO SAY IF THIS HAPPENED TO KIM GARDNER, SHE'D BE OUT RIGHT NOW.

>> SHE WAS -- >> SHE WAS IN A SIMILAR WAITION.

>> SHE WASN'T IN A SIMILAR SITUATION.

SHE'S NOTHING SIMILAR ABOUT THAT SITUATION AND DRUNK DRIVING.

>> HE'S MAINTAINING HIS INNOCENCE.

>> AND HE HAS A RIGHT TO.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT KIM GARDNER WAS DOING.

>> EVEN WESLEY BELL IF HE HAD A DWI WOULD BE MAYBE TREATED DIFFERENTLY.

I WILL SAY THIS.

I DO THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S UP TO THE VOTERS.

BUT I -- I THINK IT'S NOT -- >> IT MAY BE STATE LAW.

>> BUT YOU'RE RIGHT ON POINT, IF HE IS FOUND GUILTY OF SOMETHING HE'S PROSECUTING, THAT'S A LITTLE CLOSE TO HOME.

>> AWKWARD, YEAH.

WENDY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A CASE IN -- WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THIS LAST WEEK.

WELCOME BACK, BY THE WAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND IT'S THE SEX TAPE IN THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL CHAMBERS.

AS PEOPLE PROBABLY KNOW RIGHT NOW, CAL HARRIS WAS THE CHIEF OF STAFF FOR ST. LOUIS COUNTY EXECUTIVE SAM PAGE, BUT HE CREATED A SEX TAPE.

HE APPARENTLY HAS ADMITTED, AND HE RESIGNED.

NOW THERE'S AN ORDINANCE THAT'S BEEN PROPOSED THAT WILL BE DISCUSSED ON TUESDAY IN THE COUNTY COUNCIL CHAMBERS, AND IT WOULD PROHIBIT ANY ACTIVITY OF A SEXUAL NATURE IN COUNTY BUILDINGS, COUNTY VEHICLES, OR ON COUNTY PROPERTY.

SO THERE'S THAT.

THERE'S ALSO, IN THE TWITTER VERSE AND ELSEWHERE, PEOPLE ARE MOVING THE STORY AWAY FROM CAL HARRIS AND WHAT HE DID AND SAYING THAT THOSE WHO DISTRIBUTED THE TAPE ARE, YOU KNOW, REALLY THE ONES WHO ARE PROBLEMATIC HERE, THAT THEY WERE PASSING THE TAPE AROUND LIKE PEOPLE SHARING POPCORN IN A THEATER.

THEIR WORDS, NOT MINE.

WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN ON THIS?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT SORT OF HAD THE OLD, YOU KNOW, MY DOG ATE MY HOMEWORK RING TO IT, WHERE YOU'RE BLAMING SCHMED DOGAN AND MARK HARDER FOR SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH.

YOU DON'T BLAME THE MESSENGER AND I THINK LISA CLANCY IS BEING A GOOD SOLDIER AND THIS IS SORT OF THE -- THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE BEING TOLD TO DO, YOU KNOW, DEFLECT, DEFLECT, DEFLECT.

I GUESS MY QUESTION IS HOW FAR HAVE WE LOWERED THE BAR FOR LEADERSHIP IN GOVERNMENT WHERE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE AN ORDINANCE TO ALERT EMPLOYEES THAT SEX ACTS SHOULD NOT BE PERFORMED IN OFFICES OR COUNTY VEHICLES PAID FOR BY THE COUNTY TAXPAYERS.

IF THAT IS HOW LOW THE BAR IS, THEN I THINK WE ALL HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF THINKING TO DO.

>> I JUST -- REALLY, I MEAN, ONE, I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AND SEE IF ANY PLACE ELSE IN AMERICA HAS ALREADY DONE THAT BECAUSE I BET YOU THEY HAVE, ALL RIGHT?

>> I DON'T THINK WE'RE -- >> THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT ALREADY HAS THAT RULE.

>> OKAY.

AND THEN, TWO, IT'S LIKE WENDY SAID, ALL RIGHT, IF YOU CANNOT REALIZE THAT EVERYTHING YOU DO, YOUR VEHICLE, WHEN YOU'RE AT WORK AND ALL THAT, IT'S ALL BEING PAID FOR BY THE PEOPLE, AND THE PEOPLE PROBABLY DON'T WANT YOU DOING THIS, SO COME ON, PASS AN ORDINANCE, YEAH.

LET'S -- SO NOBODY CAN CRY, I DIDN'T KNOW.

>> YEAH.

>> I -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY.

FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GOOD POLITICS FOR TIM FITCH TO BRING UP THE, YOU KNOW, THIS ORDINANCE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A PRESSING ISSUE PARTICULARLY AND I WANT TO BE CAREFUL HOW I CHOOSE MY WORDS.

I THINK IT'S REALLY STRANGE POLITICS TO KEEP THIS STORY ALIVE, IF YOU'RE SAM PAGE, BY BRINGING IN SCHMED DOGAN AND MARK HARDER AS WHO AS YOU SAY WEREN'T PART OF THE STORY AND IT KEEPS THE STORY ALIVE.

THE BEST THING, POLITICAL WITH AN ELECTION THREE OR FOUR WEEKS AGO -- >> MAINTAIN RADIO SILENCE.

>> EXACTLY.

I THINK JANE DUECKER HAS A GOOD CHANCE TO WIN AND I DON'T THINK IT'S VERY GOOD POLITICS TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS.

IT'S INTERESTING TO ME.

I BET THIS STORY HAS MORE TRACTION, AND WHETHER IT SHOULD OR NOT L RESONATE MORE WITH VOTERS AND GET THEIR ATTENTION MORE THAN, SAY, TONY WEAVER AND THE STORY WITH HIS INDICTMENT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

THE SUPPORTERS OF THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE SEEM TO BE TRYING TO POINT OUT THAT BECAUSE THIS TAPE WAS DISTRIBUTED, AND AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, THE ONLY WAY IT COULD HAVE BEEN DISTRIBUTED OFF OF CAL HARRIS'S PHONE WOULD HAVE BEEN BY CAL HARRIS HIMSELF.

>> THAT'S NOT WHAT TRAVIS NOBLE -- >> I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE IT WOULD COME OUT.

>> I DON'T EITHER.

>> BUT DO WE REALLY THINK THE WOMAN IS A VICTIM HERE IF SHE -- UNLESS SHE WAS COERCED, SHE WILLINGLY HAD SEX IN THIS OFFICE, AND WHEN YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AREN'T YOU PRETTY MUCH VULNERABLE TO WHAT'S ZPG TO HAPPEN?

>> IF SHE DID NOT GIVE CONSENT TO THIS BEING VIDEOED, SHE'S A VICTIM OF THAT.

>> SHE GOT HERSELF -- >> EVERYONE IS SO WORKED UP ABOUT THIS.

I DON'T THINK IT'S SO INTERESTING, THAT ACT, THE FACT IT HAPPENED IN A COUNTY OFFICE, I'M SORRY, IF YOU ALL WANT TO GET ALL WORKED UP, MAKE IT A HORRIBLE DONE, THERE'S SO MUCH WORSE THAN AS WE SAW IN THE CITY -- >> WOW, RAY.

>> NO -- >> YOU'RE RIGHT.

>> IT DOES NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL OF CORRUPT BEHAVIOR.

>> BUT THIS IS PRETTY BASIC.

>> IT'S NOT GOOD.

>> THIS IS PRETTY BASIC COMMON SENSE STUFF AND IF WE CAN'T EXPECT THAT BASIC LEVEL OF COMMON SENSE FROM OUR LEADERS -- >> OKAY, OKAY.

>> SOMEHOW I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S SO AWFUL AS THE BURNING ISSUES OF THE DAY.

>> I THINK RAY IS RIGHT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE AFFECTING ST. LOUIS COUNTY, BUT HERE'S THE ISSUE THAT DOES.

>> I BET IT IS TO MRS. HARRIS.

>> WELL, THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE FROM HERE.

>> THEY MAY NOT BE MARRIED.

>> I DON'T THINK THEY'RE MARRIED.

>> LAST WEEKEND WAS THE MOST VIOLENT WEEKEND OF 2022 IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

SEVEN PEOPLE MURDERED, 21 SHOT.

TODAY, ALMOST 60 KIDS UNDER THE AGE OF 17 HAVE BEEN SHOT IN OUR AREA.

IT'S JUST HORRIFIC.

AND THERE WAS ALSO ANOTHER HORRIFIC EVENT, JOE, AS YOU KNOW, IN HIGHLAND PARK, ILLINOIS, SUBURBAN CHICAGO, WHERE A MADMAN SHOT PEOPLE DURING A PARADE.

WE KNOW ABOUT THAT.

ALL THE NEWS ANCHORS, LESTER HOLT AND CNN AND MSNBC, THEY ALL WENT TO HIGHLAND PARK.

HERE YOU CAN BARELY GET COVERAGE ANYWHERE WHEN IT CAME TO THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF LIVES LOST.

AND JUST ABOUT THE SAME NUMBER OF SHOOTINGS, MAYBE MORE, IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

WHY IS AN ISSUE THAT REALLY MATTERS, LIFE AND DEATH, PEOPLE GETTING MOWED DOWN, WHY IS THAT NOT GETTING ATTENTION?

>> I'M GOING TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH WHAT I SAY HERE JUST BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO LOOK THAT I'M -- IT'S ALL HORRIFIC, HIGHLAND PARK WAS HORRIFIC, ST. LOUIS OVER THE FOURTH OF JULY WEEKEND WAS HORRIFIC.

AND I'M SURE IF WE GOT NUMBERS FROM OTHER MAJOR CITIES AROUND THE UNITED STATES, SOMEWHAT HORRIFIC AS WELL.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS, BASICALLY, NETWORK TELEVISION AND THE COVERAGE BECAUSE I RELATE IT TO THE FACT THAT MORE PEOPLE DIE IN CAR EXPECT THAN A PLANE CRASH, BUT A PLANE CRASH IS BETTER TELEVISION.

A PERSON DYING HERE, A PERSON DYING THERE, BUT YOU TAKE IT ALL IN ONE PLACE, IT BECOMES THAT DRAMATIC MOMENT.

I WISH THEY WOULD COME TO ST. LOUIS AND HAVE AN ANCHOR SPEND THREE WEEKS WHERE EIGHT, TEN, 12 PEOPLE GET SHOT, SIX OF THEM KILLED, BUT ONE AT A TIME, IT DOESN'T HAVE THE IMPACT.

AND THAT'S WHY THE TELEVISION STATIONS THERE ARE.

TO ME, SOMEBODY GETTING SHOT AND KILLED AND IS SOMEBODY GETTING SHOT AND KILLED AND WHEN YOU START -- >> WELL, IT'S LIKE KLEBOLD AND HARRIS IN COLORADO.

THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE YOU'RE SMASHING THE IDYLLIC SCENE OF A HIGH SCHOOL IN THE MOUNTAINS.

HIGHLAND PARK, FOURTH OF JULY PARADE, HE WAS ON HIS WAY TO WISCONSIN FOR PART TWO.

>> MADISON.

>> EXACTLY.

SO IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT SHATTERS SOMETHING THAT IS A LONG-HELD BELIEF, THAT WE HAVE TRADITIONS AND NOW THEY'RE JUST AS VULNERABLE AS WAR ZONES.

>> RESPECTFULLY, I THINK THIS IS AN ABSURD COMPARISON.

I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHICH DO YOU THINK?

WE SHOULD HAVE -- FIRST OF ALL, YOU CANNOT WATCH THE LOCAL NEWS WITHOUT SEEING COVERAGE OF MURDERS.

THAT'S ALL THEY LEAD WITH.

ARE YOU SUGGESTING THERE SHOULD HAVE LESS COVERAGE OF A MASS MURDER IN A -- >> NO, I'M NOT, RAY.

TAKE ME SERIOUSLY.

>> BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A -- >> THE VICE PRESIDENT DIDN'T COME TO ST. LOUIS, DID SHE?

>> OF COURSE NOT.

>> I'LL TELL YOU WHY.

I THINK TO A LARGE EXTENT, DEMOCRATS AND FRIENDS IN THE MEDIA, WHEN THEY SEE THE MASS SHOOTINGS, THEY WANT TO PIN THAT, PERHAPS RIGHTFULLY SO, ON REPUBLICANS WHO NEVER WANT TO BAN ANY GUNS.

>> IT'S NOT ABOUT -- >> MEAN WHILE, THEY'RE NEVER CRITICAL OF URBAN VIOLENCE BECAUSE THAT REFLECTS POORLY ON THE GOVERNANCE OF THE -- >> THAT'S SO RIDICULOUS.

>> -- WHICH ARE GOFRD BY DEMOCRATS.

>> YOU MAY DISAGREE WITH IT, BUT IT'S NOT RIDICULOUS.

>> IT IS RIDICULOUS.

>> NO, IT IS NOT.

LET ME ASK YOU SINCE YOU TURNED ON ME.

HOW MANY COLUMNS HAVE YOU WRITTEN ON GUN VIOLENCE IN THE CITY?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

>> ZERO, RIGHT?

>> I DIDN'T WRITE ABOUT HIGHLAND PARK EITHER.

>> IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

YOU'RE SAYING THE VICE PRESIDENT SHOULD COME TO EVERY CITY WHERE THERE'S A MULTIPLE MASS MURDER.

>> NO, I DIDN'T -- >> HE DIDN'T SAY ANY OF THAT AT ALL.

WHAT HE WAS SAYING IS WHY WAS SHE IN HIGHLAND PARK AND NOT HERE.

>> BECAUSE IT WAS A MASS MURDER AT A FOURTH OF JULY PARADE.

THE SAME REASON THAT REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS -- >> BECAUSE THERE IS AN AGENDA.

>> NO, THERE'S NOT AN AGENDA.

>> THERE IS AN AGENDA.

>> RAY, LET ME MAKE A RIDICULOUS STATEMENT.

YOU'RE SAYING THE KIDS IN ST. LOUIS WHO DIED ON FOURTH OF JULY, IT WAS NOT AS HORRIFIC AS THE PEOPLE WHO DIED -- >> THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING, JOE, YOU GOT ME.

>> YOU'RE PUTTING WORDS IN MY CHARLIE AND MY SOUTH -- >> YOU GOT ME, JOE.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT THOSE KIDS.

>> OF COURSE, OF COURSE THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

>> LET ALVIN REID GET A WORD IN EDGE WISE GLOOSK THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, RAY.

>> IT'S A MASS MEASURE ZERO.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THE PREVIOUS PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE GONE TO, YOU KNOW, HIGHLAND PARK BECAUSE WHO KNOWS WHAT HE HAVE WOULD HAVE DONE.

BUT EVERY PAST REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE GONE TO HIGHLAND PARK AND THEY WOULD NOT HAVE COME TO ST. LOUIS, SO I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD SAY THAT GEORGE BUSH ARE AN ANYBODY HAD AN AGENDA BECAUSE THEY WENT TO HIGHLAND PARK.

THAT WAS TERRIBLE, IT HAPPENED FOURTH OF JULY, AND YOU CAN SAY IT'S FOR POLITICAL REASONS OR WHATEVER, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THE ONLY REASON SHE WENT THERE IS BECAUSE SHE WAS DEMOCRAT.

I'M NOT BUYING THAT.

>> I THINK IT'S TRUE.

>> SO AGAIN -- >> THANK YOU.

>> WHATEVER, AND TWO, SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN BUSY BECAUSE FOURTH OF JULY, I THINK PEOPLE -- >> EVERYWHERE.

>> 230 PEOPLE GOT KILLED OVER THE WEEKEND, 600-SOME-ODD INJURED BY GUN FIRES IT A WAS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS RURAL, IT WAS URBAN.

>> BUT ANY BROADER CONTEXT, HIS POINT IS VALID THAT WE HAVE TO STOP SEPARATING LOSS OF LIFE AT THESE, YOU KNOW -- >> SO YOU WANT TO GO DOWN THIS PATH?

ALL RIGHT, YOU TOOK ME HERE.

TEXAS, EVERYBODY IS SITTING AROUND WONDERING OUT LOUD, WHAT WAS GOING ON DOWN THERE, WHY DIDN'T THE POLICE DO THIS AND WHY DIDN'T THE POLICE DO THAT?

YOU KNOW WHY?

BECAUSE IT WASN'T A CLASSROOM FULL OF LITTLE WHITE KIDS AND IF IT HAD BEEN, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN D-DAY IN THAT SCHOOL, ALL HANDS ON DECK, WE'RE GOING IN.

>> BUT WASN'T THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF UVALDE, WASN'T HE HOISK?

>> PEOPLE SAY THIS ALL THE TIME.

BLACK PEOPLE GET FIRED AND THEY SAY A BLACK PERSON FIRED HIM, IT CAN'T BE RACISM.

HE HA AS BOSS AND HE HAS A CAREERS A UL A THAT TOUGH.

THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISNOMERS THAT EXISTS IN COUNTRY, A BLACK PERSON FIRED HIM.

THAT MEANS NOTHING.

CLARENCE THOMAS IS BLACK.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND, ALVIN.

>> ALVIN IS RIGHT ABOUT THAT, BUT LET ME MAKE A POINT HERE.

WE'RE IN THE NEWS BUSINESS.

>> RIGHT.

>> I'VE BEEN IN IT FOR A HALF CENTURY.

CERTAIN THINGS ARE NEWS.

20 PEOPLE BEING MURDERED SOMEWHERE IS NOT THE EQUIVALENT OF 20 SEPARATE MURDERS.

I'M SORRY.

FROM A NEWS PERSPECTIVE, IT'S NOT -- >> [ ALL TALKING AT ONCE ] >> I THINK IT'S WHY AIRPLANE CRASHES GET MORE COVERAGE THAN CAR CRASHES.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU'RE RIGHT.

THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT -- >> BECAUSE IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU DOESN'T MAKE IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, RAY.

NOT TO THE VICTIM'S FAMILIES.

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT, CHARLES, BUT THE FACT IS A MASS MURDER IS A DIFFERENT SCALE OF NEWS EVENT -- >> FROM A CULTURAL STANDPOINT, RAY.

>> I'M NOT SAYING THEIR LIVES MATTER MORE OR LESS THAN THE OTHER LIVES, BUT THE POINT IS IT'S NOT NEWS IF EVERY WEEKEND TRAGICALLY -- BY THE WAY, AS FAR AS THE POLITICS, I THINK THE POLITICS BR GUNS NEITHER CASE.

>> IN TERMS OF POLITICS, WOO EITHER GOING TO MOVE ON TO YOU, WENDY, WHEN IT COMES TO CAMPAIGN ADS.

WE THOUGHT WE SAW THEM ALL, AND NOW ERIC SCHMITT, RUNNING FOR U.S. SENATE, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE STATE OF MISSOURI, NOT TO BE OUTDONE BY ERIC GREITENS WHO POSED WITH A FIREARM IN HIS THIRD SUCH AD RECENTLY, HE HAS A -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A BLOW TORCH, IT LOOKS LIKE A TIKI TORCH TO ME TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, BUT HE'S CARRYING IT LIKE IT'S A FIREARM AND I HEARD MAJOR GARRETT ON KMOX TODAY SAY IT'S THE RAMBO-IZATION OF AMERICAN POLITICS RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GET PEOPLE TO PULL THE LEVER FOR THEM?

>> I JUST LONG FOR THE DAYS.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN LAMAR ALEXANDER WAS CONSIDERED OUT THERE BECAUSE HE WORE FLANNEL SHIRTS?

HE LOOKED LIKE THE BRAWNY PAPER TOWEL GUY.

THEY WERE LIKE, HE IS REALLY OUT THERE, WEARING A CHECKED FLANNEL SHIRT.

THERE'S JUST ENTIRELY TOO MUCH TESTOSTERONE GOING ON WITH THESE CAMPAIGNS.

ONE TRYING TO PROVE THAT HIS FLAME THROWER THAN LARGER THAN THAT GUY'S AK-47, WHATEVER.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS NOT GOING TO -- THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF VOTERS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AN APPEAL TO TO SEPARATE YOURSELF, AND THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO APPEAL TO A LOT OF VOTERS.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, BUT I'LL ADD THIS.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICS, IT'S ABOUT TRUMP POLITICS.

THE FACT IS, THIS IS A BATTLE -- AND I WOULD SUBMIT IT DOESN'T MATTER AT THE END OF THE DAY WHICH ONE OF THESE CANDIDATES WINS, WHETHER IT'S ONE OF THE ERICS WITH THEIR TOYS AND TOO MUCH TESTOSTERONE AS YOU SAID, WHICH I'M ACTUALLY REFERRING TO IN MY COLUMN THIS WEEK, OR WHETHER IT'S VICKY HARTZLER WHO'S MORE ANTI-CHOICE AND MORE ANTI-EVERYTHING THAN THEY ARE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS COMES DOWN FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS TO WHO'S GOING TO VOTE FOR THE NEXT INSURRECTION, WHO'S GOING TO VOTE, YOU KNOW, SO -- >> OKAY, BUT I DON'T THINK -- >> I WANT TO ASK YOU -- >> THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL, RAY.

>> THAT'S A RIDICULOUS STATEMENT.

>> WHAT ABOUT TRUDY BUSCH VALENTINE?

EARLIER THIS WEEK, SHE SAID SHE WOULD NOT TAKE A SALARY IF SHE'S ELECTED TO THE U.S. SENATE.

SOME PEOPLE SAID IT'S ILLEGAL, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT IMPORTANT, BUT WHAT I DO THINK IS IMPORTANT, KIND OF LIKE SAM PAGE WHO WON'T DEBATE JANE DUECKER, SHE APPARENTLY WILL NOT DEBATE HER OPPONENT, MR. KUNCE.

>> SHE WILL NOT DEBATE BECAUSE SHE CANNOT DEBATE.

SHE'S OUT OF HER ELEMENT.

SHE'S A FINE PERSON.

ANYBODY BORN IN THE, YOU KNOW, GREAT WEALTH AND STUFF THAT DEVOTES THEIR LIFE TO BEING A GREAT MOTHER AND A NURSE AND ALL THAT, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH VICKY -- TRUDY BUSCH VALENTINE AS A PERSON.

BUT SHE'S IN THE WRONG LINE OF WORK BASICALLY, AND THE PROBLEM IS, I DO THINK THE FUTURE OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY MIGHT HINGE ON THIS CONTROL OF THE SENATE.

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT WAY, THE DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE MESSING AROUND WITH A CANDIDATE THAT CAN'T WORK WHEN THEY'VE GOT ONE IN LUCAS KUNCE WHO COULD WIN.

I WROTE A COLUMN FOR NEXT WEEK JUST ATTACKING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BECAUSE THE MAIN EXTREME PARTY IS FRIGHTENED ABOUT A GUY WHO ACTUALLY CAN CONVEY THE MESSAGE IN OUT-STATE NOW, WHO DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE THINK.

IT'S.

>> I THINK EVERYBODY IN THE PARTY KNOWS HE IS GOING TO WIN, SO JUST SAVE ALL THAT TALK AND WHATNOT UNTIL HE'S ACTUALLY RUNNING AGAINST A REPUBLICAN.

>> THEY'RE NOT SUPPORTING HIM.

>> IN MY MIND, I THINK LUCAS KUNCE IS GOING TO RUN AGAINST ERIC GREITENS.

>> AND HE CAN WIN.

>> WE CAN SAVE ALL OUR BACK AND FORTH UNTIL THEN BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I JUST THINK THAT'S HOW IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN.

THEY SHOULD BE DEBATE.

>> EVERYBODY SHOULD DEBATE.

>> AS A REPORTER, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE MORE DEBATES.

>> JOE, I WANT TO KNOW, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF DAVID BROOKS COLUMN IN THE NEW YORK TIMES WHERE HE TOOK A LOOK AT THE PRACTICE BY THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TO PUT $30 MILLION INTO THE ILLINOIS PRIMARY TO DEFEAT RICHARD IRVIN.

IRVIN WAS THE MODERATE REPUBLICAN MAYOR OF AURORA, ILLINOIS.

AND THEY DID THAT TO DEFEAT IRVIN, THE MODERATE, SO THEY COULD FACE THE TRUMPER, BAILEY, IN THE FINALS.

HE SAID IT'S THE SLEAZIEST THING TODAY IN POLITICS.

>> WELL, MR. BROOKS MUST NOT GET OUT MUCH OR HAVE PAID ATTENTION TO SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS OF POLITICS, BUT EVERYBODY HAS ALWAYS TRIED TO GET THE WEAKEST OPPONENT.

LET US GO BACK TO WATERGATE WHERE IT WAS ALL ABOUT NOT FACING MUSKIE, BUT SPACING McGOVERN.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE ONE SIDE'S AIM, WHICH IS MY BELIEF WHY DEMOCRATS SO DESPERATELY WANT ERIC GREITENS TO WIN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, BECAUSE HE LOOKS AS THE MOST BEATABLE CANDIDATE.

SO WAS IT SLEAZY?

YES.

THAT'S POLITICS.

IS POLITICS SLEAZY?

YES, IT IS.

>> AND THAT'S WHY FOR ALL OF HER, YOU KNOW, VERY GOOD INTENTIONS, IT SORT OF CIRCLES BACK TO THE TRUDY BUSCH VALENTINE.

WONDERFUL PERSON, HEART'S IN THE RIGHT PLACE, BUT DOES SHE BELONG IN THIS ARENA?

THAT'S A CONVERSATION THAT -- >> ALL I WANT TO SAY IS IN 2016, DONALD TRUMP WASN'T TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND HE ENDED UP BECOMING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHO WAS HE RUNNING AGAINST?

>> WELL, YOU'RE -- >> YOU'RE SPINNING THE WHEEL.

CHARLIE, I AGREE WITH YOU.

IF YOU SAY OKAY, WE'LL GET THIS GUY IN THERE, THAT GUY MAY END UP WINNING.

>> BUT I DON'T WANT TO HEAR DEMOCRATS ANYMORE SAYING, WHERE ARE THE MODERATE REPUBLICANS LIKE WE USED TO HAVE?

IF YOU SPEND SO MUCH MONEY DEFEATING THEM IN PRIMARIES AND THEY'RE NOT EVEN IN YOUR PRIMARY.

>> OKAY, I THINK IT'S -- >> THAT WAS A GOOD POINT.

>> I AGREE WITH JOE BECAUSE YOU MESSED THIS UP, BUT I AGREE WITH JOE AND LET ME ALSO SAY -- >> 30 SECONDS, RAY.

>> JOE McCARTHY IN WISCONSIN CAME ON THE SCENE BECAUSE OF THIS -- THAT RISK.

I DO NOT THINK GOVERNOR PRITZKER IN ILLINOIS IS TAKING ANY KIND OF RISK.

I THINK THEY MAY HAVE WASTED IT.

I DON'T THINK IT MATTERED, HE'S GOING TO WIN AND HE SHOULD, BUT THE DEMOCRATS PLAYED THIS GAME WITH JOE McCARTHY BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE COULDN'T WIN, AND GUESS WHAT, HE -- >> RAY, GOT TO WRAP IT UP.

THANKS FOR THAT COMMENT ON A HISTORICAL NOTE.

LET'S GO TO THE LETTERS AND SEE WHAT PEOPLE HAD TO SAY ABOUT LAST WEEK'S PROGRAM.

INCLUDING COMMENTS BY TOM RYAN ON LAST WEEK'S NEXT UP.

THAT WAS A TREMENDOUS PROGRAM.

I HAVE TO GIVE PROFOUND CREDIT TO BOTH OF THE GETS FOR THEIR CIVILIZE -- GUESTS FOR THEIR CIVILIZED BEHAVIOR.

ALL IN ALL, THOUGH, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM BEING GOVERNED BY THE 1825 LAWS.

I THINK YOU MADE A MISTAKE THE OTHER NIGHT WHEN YOU TURNED NEXT UP WITH A DEBATE WITH TWO GUESTS OF OPPOSING VIEWS ABOUT ABORTION.

COMPARE THIS WITH THE PREVIOUS PROGRAM WHEN THREE GUESTS PROMOTING HARVEY MILK AND OTHER LGBT PROJECTS WERE TREATED WITH DEFERENCE, INTEREST AND RESPECT.

LGBT IS ALSO CONTROVERSIAL, BUT NO DEBATE WAS ALLOWED.

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THANKS A LOT TO JOE HOLLEMAN FOR JOINING US ON THIS EDITION.

BILL WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

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