>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ABOARD.

LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS BEFORE WE DISCUSS THE HOT TOPICS OF THE WEEK, STARTING WITH SARAH FENSKE FROM ST. LOUIS ON THE AIR ON ST. LOUIS PUBLIC RADIO, SITTING IN FOR WENDY WIESE WHO'S TAKING A SPRING BREAK.

SO IS BILL McCLELLAN.

HE'S OUT, SO PAGE 2 COLUMNIST FOR THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH, MR. JOE HOLLEMAN HAS JOINED US.

THANK YOU, JOE.

ON TO RAY HARTMANN, ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS.

YOU SEE HIS COLUMNS IN RAWSTORY.COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, AND HE HOSTS ST. LOUIS IN THE KNOW WEEK NIGHTS ON THE BIG 550 KTRS.

ALVIN REID EDITS THE NEWS FOR THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN WHERE HE ALSO WRITES A GREAT SPORTS COLUMN AND A LOT TO TALK ABOUT THIS WEEK, BUT BEFORE WE BEGIN THE DISCUSSION, A LITTLE PROGRAMMING NOTE.

AT HALF PAST, GREG MYRE, THE NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT FOR NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO AND A PARKWAY CENTRAL GRAD, WILL BE WITH US TO DISCUSS UKRAINE AND OTHER MATTERS.

RAY AND I WILL THROW QUESTIONS HIS WAY.

LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT, HOPE YOU JOIN US.

SARAH, I WANT TO ASK YOU -- BY THE WAY, WELCOME BACK.

>> THANK YOU.

>> BIG STORY, I THINK, THIS WEEK WHERE WILLIAM TISABY, THE PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, FORMER FBI AGENT HIRED BY THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY, MS. GARDNER, TO INVESTIGATE ERIC GREITENS IN A CRIMINAL CASE, THERE IS GOING BACK THREE, OUR YEARS RIGHT NOW, TURNS OUT HE HAD BEEN, ACCORDING TO A GRAND JURY, INDICTED FOR SEVEN COUNTS OF -- SEVEN DIFFERENT COUNTS, INCLUDING SIX OF PERJURY BECAUSE IT WAS SHOWN THAT HE HAD BEEN ASKED FOR MATERIALS AND HE SAID THERE WERE NO MATERIALS, I DIDN'T TAKE NOTES, THERE IS NO VIDEOTAPE, NOTHING IS WORKING.

AND THEN HE WAS PROVED WRONG, WRONG, WRONG ON EACH OF THOSE, AND YET, ACCORDING TO THE WAY OUR SYSTEM WORKS THE ACCUSED IS ENTITLED TO THESE MATTERS.

SO HE LIED UNDER OATH IN A DEPOSITION, BUT THIS WEEK, HE COPPED A PLEA DEAL AND HE GOT A MISDEMEANOR FOR TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE.

AS A RESULT, HE'LL BE ON PROBATION FOR ONE YEAR, BUT IF HE HAS GOOD BEHAVIOR, THE WHOLE CASE IS CLEARED IN THREE MONTHS.

WAS THIS SENTENCE TOO LIGHT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

TO ME, THIS FEELS JUST ABOUT RIGHT.

THE VERY FACT THIS ENDED UP BEING SOMETHING WHERE YOU'RE BRINGING MULTIPLE FELONY COUNTS, THIS IS ALMOST UNHEARD OF FROM THE LAWYERS I TALKED TO.

PEOPLE ARE MAKING PERJURIOUS STATEMENTS A LOT IN DEPOSITIONS.

IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, BUT IT FREQUENTLY DOES AND YOU ONLY GETTING A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR INVOLVED ON A CASE LIKE THIS THAT'S POLITICALLY CHARGED.

ERIC GREITENS HAD POLITICALLY CONNECTED ATTORNEYS, THINK MANAGED TO GET A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR AND THEY TOOK THIS TO A HILT, A PRODUCE COURT WILLING TO BRING THIS MANY CHARGES OVER A DEPOSITION.

>> NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN IT BECAUSE IT WAS ALL ABOUT ERIC GREITENS.

LOOK TODAY, IF ONE-TENTH OF WHAT SHEENA GREITENS IS ACCUSING ERIC GREITENS OF DOING NOW, HIS CRIMES ARE SO MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN THIS, YOU GOT TO REMEMBER THE DETAILS.

ERIC GREITENS DID NOT LOSE -- DID NOT RESIGN FROM THE GOVERNORSHIP BECAUSE OF THIS, THIS BUNGLED PROSECUTION.

HE RESIGNED BECAUSE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WANTED HIM OUT AND TOOK HIM OUT.

SO THIS WAS REALLY -- I MEAN, WHATEVER ONE THINKS ABOUT KIM GARDNER, THIS WAS SUCH -- IT WAS MUCH -- IT WAS SUCH CONSEQUENTIAL -- >> I DON'T THINK THIS RIGHT NOW, FROM WHERE WE'VE COME TO WHERE THIS ALL STARTED TO WHERE WE ARE NOW, I DON'T THINK THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH ERIC GREITENS.

I THINK DOES HAVE TO DO WITH KIM GARDNER.

I THINK THEY SAT WILLIAM TISABY DOWN AND TOLD HIM YOU'RE GETTING LEANED AND YOU'RE GOING TO DO SOME TIME AND IN THREE MONTHS, KIM GARDNER MIGHT NOT HAVE A LAW LICENSE AND I THINK THE TWO ARE PLAYING TOGETHER.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE CASE AT ALL.

>> I THINK IT WAS VERY SERIOUS CHARGES.

ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT, AT ONE POINT THE FORMER CIRCUIT JUDGE WANTED TO TAKE ALL THESE LIES TO THE POLICE, BUT KIM GARDNER, ACCORDING TO THE JRK SAID NO WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK OF ERIC GREITENS, I KNOW YOU DON'T HOLD HIM IN HIGH STANDING IN YOUR OPINION, RAY, BUT HE'S ENTITLED TO A SQUEAKY CLEAN PROSECUTION, AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THEY HAVE AN UNDER VEST UNDER OATH, FORMER FBI AGENT, WAS LYING REPEATEDLY.

THAT JUST CAN'T HAPPEN.

>> AND I THINK THAT'S THE PART THAT GETS LOST IN THIS.

ONE, PROSECUTORS HATE PERJURY CASES LIKE THEY HATE CONSPIRACY CASES, YOU PUT THAT IN FRONT OF THE JURY, YOU GROTTO EXPLAIN WAS IT A LIE OR I DID MISREMEMBER, THOSE ARE TOUGH CASES FOR PROSECUTORS.

BUT THE IDEA WAS THE PROSECUTION OR TISABY'S ACTIONS WERE NOT FOLLOWING THE RULE OF LAW AND I THINK A LOT OF WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU'RE OKAY WITH TISABY DID ONLY IF YOU'RE OKAY WITH THE OUTCOME?

I.E., GREITENS GOT REMOVED, GREITENS IS GONE.

THEN IT'S, WEMG, LENS FORGIVE THAT, LET'S PUT THE SHOE ON THE OTHER FOOT AND TISABY IS PROSECUTING SOME DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE.

THEN YOU HAVE THE OTHER SIDE COMPLAINING BIT.

THE BL LINE IS THERE WAS A BUNCH OF CASES OF HIM POSSIBLY AXING INAPPROPRIATELY, ILLEGALLY, AND THEY CUT A DEAL WITH HIM.

I'M MORE WITH ALVIN, I WANT TO SEE WHERE THE OTHER SHOE DROPS ON THIS, TO GO FROM ONE MISDEMEANOR, FROM SEVEN FELONIES TO ONE MISDEMEANOR, THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD DEAL.

>> THAT'S A GOOD DEAL.

>> BUT THIS WAS A DOG OF A CASE.

YOU HAD A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR WITH A VESTED INTEREST IN TRYING TO GO AFTER KIM GARDNER AND HER PEOPLE AND THE MINUTE YOU HAD A PROSECUTOR FROM OUTSIDE ST. LOUIS ON THIS CASE, THE GUY SAID WE CAN'T TAKE THIS TO TRIAL, WE CAN'T WIN.

>> HOW WITH JERRY CARMODY HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN GOING AFTER KIM GARDNER.

[ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> HE MADE HER -- >> THE LAWYERS -- >> NO, HE WASN'T -- THAT WASN'T -- >> HIS BEST FRIEND AND FORMER PARTNER, THEY ARE ALL PART OF THE SAME TEAM.

>> HE'S NOT PART OF THE TEAM.

HE'S NOT PART OF DOWD BENNETT.

>> HE WAS A FRIEND ARE [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> SO IF YOU'RE A CHILDHOOD FRIEND, YOU'RE A SUSPECT.

>> THERE WAS THIS WHOLE CONNECTION WITH THE -- >> OH, THE JUDGE?

YEAH, YEAH SURE.

[ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> AND BY THE WAY, JERRY CARMODY, A FINE GUY, HE WAS THE GUY WHO QUIETLY REPRESENTED THE NFL IN THE SUIT WITH THE RAMS -- >> HE REPRESENTED THE NFL!

OH, WELL THAT'S A SIN.

OH WOW.

>> WHERE DID YOU WANT THE PROSECUTOR TO COME FROM?

KIM GARDNER'S OFFICE?

>> THEY COULD HAVE GOTTEN SOMEBODY FROM ANY OTHER COUNTY AND NOT WASTED $16,000 OF TAXPAYERS MONEY, BUT TO YOUR POINT, I DON'T THINK THAT WHATEVER THE CASE THEY HAVE AGAINST KIM GARDNER, WHICH I THINK IS GOING IN APRIL -- >> TWO WEEKS, YEAH.

>> TO THE SUPREME COURT.

I DON'T THINK THEY NEED ANYTHING FROM TISABY.

I THINK WHATEVER IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> THEY HAVE IT ON VIDEO.

>> WHATEVER IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

I UNDERSTAND JOE'S POINT ABOUT THE PARTISANSHIP, BUT IN THIS CASE, MY ARGUMENT ISN'T ABOUT PARTISANSHIP, IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT NOTHING HAPPENED TO ERIC GREITENS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF HE HAD BEEN CONVICTED OF SOMETHING, IF THERE HAD AN ADVERSE OUTCOME TO HIM -- >> NO, NO, I DISAGREE.

>> BUT THERE WAS -- >> I DISAGREE.

>> IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DO BECAUSE IT IS NOT TRUE, BUT IF I WAS -- IF YOU'RE A DEFENDANT IN A CASE AND SOMETHING LIKE THIS WENT DOWN AND THE FACT THAT I GOT OFF, I'D BE EVEN MORE LIVID.

>> IT JUST WASN'T RIGHT.

>> THEY ASKED TISABY, T YOU TAKE NOTES IN YOUR DEPOSITION OF THE HAIRSTYLIST.

NO, I DON'T TAKE NOTES.

THEN THEY FIND OUT HE TAKES NOTES.

GREITENS HAD A RIGHT TO GET THOSE NOTES, SO HE'S LYING HIS TAIL OFF.

>> AND IT'S LIKE SUCH A BIG DEAL.

>> LET'S SEE IF YOU THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL ABOUT THE POPULATION FOR THE GOING DOWN, 8,000 FEWER PEOPLE.

AS IT TURNS OUT, THE CITY IS NOW BELOW 300,000.

THE COUNTY'S POPULATION WENT DOWN.

ST. CHARLES WENT UP, JEFFERSON COUNTY WENT UP, BUT THE METRO AREA IS DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL.

DOWN IN POPULATION.

MEANWHILE, KANSAS CITY, UP.

CINCINNATI, UP.

MINNEAPOLIS, UP.

CHICAGO, DOWN.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> THAT'S BREAKING NEWS.

TO ME, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S -- IN A METRO AREA OF 2.8 MILLION PEOPLE, 8,000 UP OR DOWN IS A ROUNDING ERROR.

IF IT HAD GONE UP 8,000 AND SOME CIVIC YAHOOS PUT OUT A PRESS RELIES SAYING, HEY, WE'RE BACK, IT UP 8,000, WE'D HAVE MADE FUN OF HIM.

WE COULD FIX THIS BY GETTING MORE UKRAINIAN REFUGEES.

>> MAY MEN.

>> WHICH MIGHT BE A GOOD HAVING A.

>> I AGREE.

>> BUT IN TERMS OF WE ALL KNOW AND HAVE KNOWN FOR OVER A DECADE THAT WE ARE IN A STAGNANT AREA RELATIVE TO JUST ABOUT -- >> WE'VE KNOWN IT SINCE 1950.

>> BUT I'M SAYING, WE'RE 21st NOW.

WE WERE 20th.

WE'LL BE 25th IN SIZE PROBABLY AT THE CURRENT PACE IN FIVE OR SIX YEARS.

WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON QUALITY OF LIFE, NOT WORRY ABOUT THE NUMBERS.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S ONE OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, TURN OUT THE LIGHTS, IT'S OVER BAD.

IT'S CERTAINLY NOTHING TO CROW ABOUT THAT IT'S GOING DOWN.

THE STORY THAT IS GOING TO APPEAR IN THE POST-DISPATCH TOMORROW BY JACOB BARKER, ONE OF OUR REPORTERS, TALKS ABOUT THIS LOSS OF POPULATION AND SOME OF IT CAN BE EXPLAINED BY THE OUTWARD MIGRATION, WHICH HAS BEEN GOING ON FOREVER.

AN INTERESTING NOTE THAT JACOB SHARED WITH ME WAS THAT THE OTHER THING THAT GOES WITH IT IS WE ARE ALSO IN A NEGATIVE GROWTH.

MEANING THERE'S MORE PEOPLE DYING THAN BEING BORN IN ST. LOUIS AND ST. LOUIS COUNTY.

THERE'S ONLY FOUR CITIES IN THE UNITED STATES THAT ARE IN A NEGATIVE MIGRATION AND A NEGATIVE GROWTH THROUGH BIRTH/DEATH AND IT'S CLEVELAND, PITTSBURGH, DETROIT, AND ST. LOUIS.

I MEAN, THAT'S A REAL RUSTY BELT KIND OF GROUP OF CITIES.

IT'S NOT A GOOD SIGN.

LIKE I SAID, I DON'T THINK IT'S TIME TO THROW IN THE TOWEL, BUT WE'RE TRENDING WRONG.

>> BUT I KNOW PEOPLE IN THOSE CITIES THAT ARE PRETTY HAPPY WITH THEMSELVES.

I THINK A LOT OF IT IS AN ATTITUDE ABOUT THE QUALITY OF LIFE, IN MY OPINION.

I KNOW PEOPLE IN THOSE CITIES, PITTSBURGH THAT, FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES.

>> I THINK WE NEED TO GET OVER OUR -- >> WE HAVE A COMPLEX ABOUT IT.

>> WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE REGION, THE METROPOLITAN AREA, THE SEVEN COUNTIES AS WE USED TO COUNT THEM, OVERALL, I DON'T THINK IT'S GONE DOWN, OKAY?

JUST KIND OF RELATE TO IT LIKE THAT.

THE CITY IS THE HUB.

WISH IT WAS GOING UP, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IF WUR COUNTING OURSELVES AS THIS REGION, THEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE I DON'T THINK WASHINGTON, D.C., WORRIES ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY GOT HALF AS MANY PEOPLE AS THEY HAD BECAUSE EVERYTHING GOING AROUND IT IS BOOMING.

SO I KIND OF FEEL LIKE THE CITY COULD BE THE SAME WAY.

>> IF THINGS WERE REALLY BOOMING AROUND HERE, I'D FEEL GOOD, BUT I THINK IT'S A WARNING SIGN THAT YOU GUYS ARE IG NO, SOME OF YOU ANYWAY, I THINK WE GOT SOME PROBLEMS HERE THAT NEED CORRECTING.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT 8,000 PEOPLE, I'M NOT LOSING SLEEP OVER THAT.

>> YOU KNOW SOMETHING IS WRONG WHEN THE PEOPLE FROM SOUTH OF THE BORDER, GO UP HIGHWAY 55, AND I'M TALKING ABOUT MEXICANS, EL SALVADORANS, THEY GO STRAIGHT UP 55 TO CHICAGO AND ST. LOUIS.

>> PEOPLE GO WHERE THEIR COUSINS ARE LIVING, SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S A JUDGMENT ON ST. LOUIS.

>> ANOTHER FACTOR 10 YEARS FROM NOW, 20 YEARS FROM NOW WHEN YOU CAN DO A GOOD STUDY OF THE EFFECTS ACTIVE COVID, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN CLAYTON OR THE COUNTY, YOU FIND OUT YOU CAN DO YOUR JOB LIVING ANYWHERE AND THE COMPANY ALLOWED YOU TO DO THAT.

WHY NOT MOVE TO THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, OR I'M FROM WEDNESDAY MILL OR MARSH FIELD -- FROM WENTZVILLE OR FROM MARSH FIELD, I CAN DO MY JOB HERE WITH THE SAME COMPANY.

>> COULD BE TRUE.

LET'S MOVE ON.

SHEENA GREITENS, THE FORMER WIFE OF FORMER GOVERNOR ERIC GREITENS, RUNNING FOR THE U.S. SENATE, IN ALLEGATIONS THAT WERE MADE PUBLIC, SHE ALLEGES THAT HE HIT HER, HIT THE 3-YEAR-OLD, DRAGGED THE 3-YEAR-OLD BY THE HAIR.

AT ONE POINT SHE WANTED TO ESCAPE WITH THE KIDS AND HE TOOK AWAY HER PURSE, HER CELL PHONE, HER CAR KEYS, REALLY BAD STUFF.

DO YOU THINK HE'S TOAST AS A SENATE CANDIDATE?

>> I DO.

I DON'T THINK HE CAN WIN.

HE'LL KEEP RUNNING, BUT I DON'T THINK HE COULD WIN.

IF HE HAD NO HISTORY OF THIS, OKAY?

BUT HE HAS A DOCUMENTED HISTORY THAT HE HAS ADMITTED TO, SO, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING IS AMISS AND HE'S DONE.

>> I DISAGREE.

>> HE PROBABLY WON'T SUSPEND HIS CAMPAIGN.

BUT HE CAN'T WIN.

>> I COMPLETELY DISAGREE.

FIRST OF ALL, I MEAN, I REALIZE HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING LIKE -- AT LEAST HE DID DO ANYTHING AS LIE ABOUT HIS NOTES OR SOMETHING, BUT ANYWAY -- >> WAIT TILL NEXT TIME YOU'RE ON CHARGES AND THE PROSECUTOR MESSED UP WITH YOUR CASE, RAY.

>> HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

FIRST OF ALL, I'D BE SURPRISED -- I WOULDN'TED BE SURPRISED IF HE FUND RAISED OFF THIS.

HE ALREADY WENT OUT -- YOU'RE SHAKING YOUR HEAD, BUT HE ALREADY MADE THIS ABOUT MITCH McCONNELL.

HE SAID I'M THE FIRST PERSON TO CRITICIZE MITCH McCONNELL AND LOOK WHAT HIS THUGS ARE DOING TO ME.

IT'S LIKE HE'S RUNNING IN A REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, HE'S A KNOWN QUANTITY.

ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM, WHICH IS MORE THAN SUPPORT ANYBODY ELSE IN THIS SIX-WAY RACE, ALL OF THEM KNOW ABOUT THE STUFF HE DID AND DON'T CARE.

IT'S LIKE IT WAS WITH TRUMP, THEY DON'T CARE.

>> BUT THEY DO CARE ABOUT SMACKING YOUR WIFE AND ABUSING YOUR KIDS.

>> YOU THINK THE WOMEN DON'T CARE?

>> WOMEN CARE.

YOU CANNOT -- YOU KNOW, HAVE ALLEGATIONS THAT A MAN DID SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO A CHILD OR WOMAN WITHOUT WOMEN GOING AWAY IN DROVES AND THE FACT THAT HIS OWN DEFENSE IS CLAIMING THIS VERY CREDIBLE, VERY SMART PERSON WHO HAS NO BLOT IN THE PUBLIC EYE IS CRAZY, HE DOESN'T SEEM CRAZY TO PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN.

>> I COULDN'T AGREE WITH SARAH MORE AND I THINK SHE POINTS ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO LOSE WOMEN WHICH IS GOING TO LEAVE YOU TO THESE HARD CORE MEN VOTERS WHO ARE GOING TO DEFEND HIM, BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE.

AND SADLY, THERE'S TOO MANY MEN OUT THERE WHO CAN JUSTIFY HITTING A WOMAN.

HITTING A 3-YEAR-OLD IN THE FACE AND KNOCKING HIS TOOTH OUT AND DRAGGING HIM BY THE HAIR, YOU'RE TOAST.

I MEAN, NOW YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE -- >> EVEN IN MISSOURI, YOU'RE SAYING?

>> NOT TO SAY HE'S NOT GOING TO GET A SINGLE VOTE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT HIS CHANCES TO WIN THE PRIMARY.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

>> HE'S GOING TO BE DOWN TO A SIX FEW BECAUSE ONCE YOU GET IN THERE AND YOU CAN COME UP WITH ALL KINDS OF SKEWS EXCUSES ASH.

>> HANG ON A SECOND.

I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS ACCURATE OR NOT, BUT THAT IS WHAT HE SAID ON MARK COX'S SHOW THIS MORNING.

HE SAID IF I'M SUCH A BAD DAD, WHY DIVE THE MAJORITY OF THE KIDS' FREE TIME?

>> SHE SAYS HE'S ONLY SEEN THEM TWICE IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS OR SOMETHING.

>> SO IT'S NOT TRUE.

>> I THINK HE IS MAKING STUFF UP.

>> OKAY.

>> THE FACT THAT HE'S ON MARK COX'S SHOW SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING AND IT IS THAT HE -- NO, THAT HE IS IN THE -- BY THE WAY, I HOPE I'M NOT COMING OFF AS DEFENDING HIM.

MY POINT IN THAT WORLD, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TRUMPIEST PART OF THE TRUMP BASE, HIS STRATEGY ALL ALONG IS TO WIN A SIX-WAY RACE OR FOUR OR FIVE-WAY RACE WITH 30%.

NOTHING ABOUT THIS CHANGES.

>> OKAY, OKAY, HOLD THAT THOUGHT, WE HAVE OTHER TOPICS.

>> IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE DEMOCRATS FEST THE NOMINEE.

>> SARAH, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER STORY AND THAT'S THE TRAGIC DEATH OF CORA FAITH WALKER, THE FORMER STATE REP AND THE PUBLIC SERVANT IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY.

SHE DIED MARCH THE 11th AT THE LOEWS HOTEL IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS.

TIM FITCH, FORMER POLICE CHIEF FOR ST. LOUIS COUNTY, SAYS THAT ON THREE DIFFERENT OCCASIONS, HE ASKED FOR INDEPENDENT INQUIRIES INTO MATTERS IN THE COUNTY WHEN HE WAS THE CHIEF JUST THERE MIGHT BE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

SO HE'S CALLING FOR AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION INTO THIS WOMAN'S DEATH SINCE SHE AND THE MAYOR WERE SUCH CLOSE FRIENDS AND THE MAYOR OVERSEES THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

SHOULD THERE BE AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY?

>> THIS SEEMS LUDICROUS, BECAUSE SAY WHAT YOUSHLG THE MAYOR IS IN CHARGE OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THERE'S NOBODY ALLEGING THAT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT LIKE THE MAYOR.

THEY'RE NOT DOING HER BIDDING, THEY DON'T SUPPORT HER.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF INYOU WENT TO LADEN REPORTING.

FRANKLY, THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH EDITORIAL BOARD HAS GOTTEN SOME STUFF WRONG.

THE CITY HAS BEEN ASKING FOR CORRECTIONS.

THEY REPORTED AT ONE POINT, THERE WAS NO 911 CALL.

OTHER REPORTERS HAVE DEMONSTRATED THERE IS A 911 CALL, THEY JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO GET IT.

THEY'RE ALL THESE FACTS OUT THERE THAT AREN'T ACTUALLY FACTS.

I DON'T SEE WHY WE NEED THE HIGHWAY PATROL TO TAKE THIS ON.

THERE'S NOTHING THAT SUGGESTS THAT THE WAY THIS IS CURRENTLY PROCEEDING NEED AND SPECIAL INVESTIGATOR OR A DIFFERENT DEPARTMENT.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT AND I THINK DAN ISOM, AND I ADMIT I'M BIASED, BUT DAN ISOM WHO IS THE -- >> PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR.

>> PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, I THINK GREAT INTEGRITY.

BILL McCLELLAN IS POINTING OUT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER IS, THIS IS A TRAGIC THING AND WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE TOXICOLOGY REPORT.

THEY SAID THE PRELIMINARY ONE SAID NO DRUGS WHICH MAY BE TRUE.

PEOPLE DO HAVE HEART ATTACKS OR WHATEVER MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE CASE.

>> MEDICAL ISSUES.

>> I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD PREJUDGE IT.

I WILL SAY I THINK THE CITY HAS ALMOST GONE OUT OF ITS WAY TO LOOK GUILTY, BY NOT COMPLYING WITH FOIA REQUESTS FOR STUFF.

>> LET ME ASK JOE.

YOU COVERED THE PRESS CONFERENCE BY DAN ISOM EARLIER THIS WEEK AND YOU REPORTED THAT IT'S TRUE THAT THE POLICE DID NOT LOOK INTO THE HOTEL ROOM THAT SHE WAS IN, RIGHT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

THAT'S WHAT THE PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR ISOM SAID, THAT NO POLICE ENTERED THE HOTEL ROOM WHERE SHE STAYED.

>> DID SOME PEOPLE FIND THAT UNUSUAL?

>> YOU HAVE TO ASK OTHER PEOPLE.

>> I UNDERSTAND, YOU'RE COVERING THE STORY.

I THINK THAT'S UNUSUAL BECAUSE BOB SAGET DIED IN A HOTEL ROOM AND THEY EXAMINED THE HOTEL ROM.

>> BUT HE DIED IN HIS HOTEL ROOM.

>>.

>> SHE WAS IN THE HALLWAY.

>> I UNDERSTAND, BUT I DON'T KNOW THE LEGALESE OF THAT, QUITE FRANKLY.

I DON'T KNOW IF I FELL OUT IN THE LOBBY OF THE HOTEL, MAYBE THEY WOULD HAVE TO GET LIKE A WARRANT TO GO INTO THE ROOM, THAT YOU COULDN'T DO IT RIGHT THEN.

I DON'T KNOW.

THAT ONE, I DON'T KNOW.

>> BUT THERE'S NO HARM NA HAVING AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY.

>> IN THIS CASE, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK IT'S NECESSARY AND SECOND OF ALL, IT'S A TRAGIC THING, WE ALL KNOW THAT, BUT WHEN SOMEONE COLLAPSES IN A HOTEL AND DIES, NORMALLY THE POLICE DON'T -- THERE'S NOTHING FOR THE POLICE TO INVESTIGATE.

IT'S TRAGIC, IT'S HORRIBLE, BUT IT'S NOT CRIMINAL.

AND THERE'S NO REASON TO ASSUME, IF SOMEBODY COLLAPSES IN A HALLWAY -- >> I THINK IF THERE'S A MYSTERIOUS DEATH, YOU WOULD HAVE AN INVESTIGATION.

>> PEOPLE HAVE HEART ATTACKS.

YOU DON'T KNOW -- >> CHRISTINE BYERS OF KSDK HAS HAD PRETTY MUCH THE BEST REPORTING ON THIS, AND SHE INTERVIEWED THE BYSTANDER, THE GOOD SAMARITAN WHO TRIED TO HELP HER IN THE HALLWAY, HE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER EMERGENCY THAT HAPPENS IN A HALLWAY.

>> IT'S VERY RARE THAT A 37-YEAR-OLD WOULD DIE.

>> NO, NO -- >> IT'S TRUE.

>> PEOPLE DIE YOUNGER THAN THAT FROM HEART ATTACKS.

PEOPLE DO NOT -- IN FACT, THE STATISTICS SHOW FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, MORE PEOPLE UNDER 40, I THINK IT'S 10% DIE NOW THAN BEFORE.

THE POINT IS THAT THERE'S NOTHING INHERENT ABOUT HER PASSING AWAY THAT WOULD MAKE -- THAT WOULD CALL FOR A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION IN A HALLWAY.

IT JUST DOESN'T -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> WELL, IT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY BE A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

>> WHAT ELSE DO THEY DO?

>> WHAT ARE YOU INVESTIGATING BEFORE YOU FIND OUT -- >> FIND OUS WHAT'S IN THE HOTEL ROOM, WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW CAUSE OF DEATH, SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY DIED FROM.

>> YOU LOOK AT THE SCENE.

>> NO, CHARLIE.

>> PICTURE THE -- I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?

>> ANYTHING.

>> NO, NO, NO, WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?

>> SOMETHING UNTOWARD.

>> SO THAT'S HOW -- THE POLICE KNOW WHERE UNTOWARD THINGS ARE RIGHT NOW.

THEY CAN GO THERE AND FIND ALL KIND OF UNTOWARD STUFF, BUT THEY CAN'T DO IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO HAVE A WARRANT, THEY HAVE TO HAVE A RIGHT TO BE THERE, AND MAYBE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT RIGHT.

>> AND I THINK OTHER THAN TIM FITCH NOT LIKING SAM PAGE -- >> OH, THANK YOU, THANK YOU -- >> AND THIS WOMAN WORKING FOR SAM PAGE AND A FRIEND OF TISHAURA JONES, OTHER THAN THAT -- >> HE SO WANTS TO PROTECT HER THAT HE WAS IN DUBLIN, IRELAND, WHEN THEY HAD THE MEMORIAL.

>> HE WAS THERE FOR HIS ANNIVERSARY.

TIM FITCH WAS IN DUBLIN FOR HIS 30th HEAT WAVES.

>> I DISAGREE WITH FITCH, BUT I DON'T QUESTION HIS MOTIVES.

>> JOE, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT -- >> I DO, I DO.

>> OKAY, WE'RE MOVING ON TO THE NEXT TOPIC HERE ON DONNYBROOK.

IT'S A REAL DONNYBROOK TONIGHT.

JOE, SARAH LONDON IS THE NEW CEO OF CENTENE.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.

SHE'S BEEN IN TOWN SINCE 2020.

SHE'S MOVING THE FIRM FROM HEALTHCARE TO TECHNOLOGY THAT DOES HEALTHCARE.

SHE'S IN A STATE WHERE THIS WEEK, THE REPUBLICAN LEADERS AGAIN ARE SEEKING TO WITHDRAW MEDICAID EXPANSION, OKAY, AND HER BUSINESS IS MEDICAID EXPANSION.

SHE HAD A SECOND BIG HEADQUARTERS IN CHARL, A BILLION-DOLLAR HEADQUARTERS SHE'S CURRENTLY BUILDING.

SHE'S NOT FROM AROUND HERE.

THEY SAID MICHAEL NEIDORFF OFTEN SAW CENTENE AS AN EXTENSION OF HIS EGO AND HE IS RETIRING.

MY QUESTION IS HOW LONG WILL CENTENE HAVE ITS HQ IN DOWNTOWN CLAYTON?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO PUT AN OVER-UNDER HERE ON THE BETTING LINE, LIKE THREE AND A HALF YEARS, WHATEVER.

I WOULD HAZARD TO SAY YES THEY WILL OR THEY WON'T, BUT THE ODDS WENT UP EXPONENTIALLY, THE FACT THAT THE NEW CEO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONNECTION TO ST. LOUIS AND THE PAST CEO WHO DIDN'T DEED, WAS VERY CRITICAL OF THE AREA.

SO IT WASN'T AS IF THE GROUNDWORK WASN'T LAID THAT I AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF MY EMPLOYEES ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THIS AND WE'RE HAVING TROUBLE GETTING PEOPLE BECAUSE OF PUBLIC SAFETY, ETCETERA, ETCETERA, SO I THINK THE NUMBER -- IF WE SAID BEFORE THAT WE'RE TAKING -- WE WOULD DISCUSS A LINE ON WHETHER CENTENE WILL LEAVE, WE PROBABLY HAVE MOVED TO THE POINT OF DISCUSSING WHAT THE OVER-UNDER LINE IS ON HOW MANY YEARS IT WILL BE BEFORE CENTENE LEAVES.

>> I DON'T THINK THIS CHANGES ANYTHING.

FIRST OF ALL, HAVING THIS WOMAN WHO I'M SURE IS QUITE QUALIFIED TO BE THE NEW CEO, IN THE CONTEXT YOU PUT IT, IS AN A SYMPTOM, NOT THE PROBLEM, OKAY?

IN OTHER WORDS, ONE PERSON ISN'T GOING TO MAKE THE DECISION FOR CENTENE WHETHER THEY RELOCATE, AND THE FACT THAT THEY HIRED SOMEBODY WHO IF ITS THE DESCRIPTION YOU DID PROBABLY INDICATES THAT THE COMPANY HAS BEEN DISPOSED TO LEAVE.

I WILL SAY THIS ABOUT MICHAEL NEIDORFF WHO IS A VERY CHARITABLE, TERRIFIC PHILANTHROPIC GUY, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT, BUT I ALWAYS FELT HIS CRITICISMS OF ST. LOUIS WERE SORT OF A FIG LEAF FOR WHY HE'S MOVING, RAGSIZATION, RATHER THAN THE -- RATIONALIZATION, RATHER THAN THE CAUSE.

>> BUT IF I'M A SHAREHOLDER, I THINK WHY DID CENTENE BUILD THIS BIG NEW EXPANSION JUST TO PULL OUT.

>> I HEAR YOU.

I'M HESITANT TO THINK HE'S NOT FROM HERE, SHE'S NOT FROM THERE.

AS A PERSON WHO WORKED AT DIFFERENT PAPERS, WE DIDN'T NECESSARILY HAVE ULTERIOR NOERVES.

THAT BEING SAID, I'M WITH JOE.

>> OH.

>> YEAH.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS, LRZ.

YOU'VE BEEN A PASSENGER -- ALVIN REID.

YOU'VE BEEN A PASSENGER ON THE VERY SUCCESSFUL, POPULAR REDBIRD.

>> MANY YEARS AGO.

>> IT'S A BUS THAT GOES FROM ST. CLAIR SQUARE FOR BUSCH STADI STADIUM.

THEY TAKE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE EVERY GAME.

THEY ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK, METRO, DID THAT THEY'RE SHUTTING THIS DOWN.

THERE'S A POPULAR FORM OF TRANSPORTATION, SHUTTING THAT DOWN.

MEANWHILE, AT THE SAME TIME, THEY'RE RESURRECTING THE LOOP TROLLEY, WHICH IS UNPOPULAR.

IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

>> SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE AND MAYBE THEY WERE LOOKING FOR THE CARDINALS TO PUT SOME SKIN IN THE GAME, BUT WHEN YOU SEE THOSE BUSES AND THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH PACKED AND I SAYS REDBIRD EXPRESS ON IT, AND I'M 60 YEARS OLD AND I SAY I USED TO CATCH THIS AND GO TO THE GAMES.

YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE THAT AWAY FROM THOSE PEOPLE BUS ONCE AGAIN, IT'S YOUNG PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY AND MAYBE IT'S CONVENIENCE FOR SOME, BUT IT'S HURTING PEOPLE THAT ALL THEY WANT TO DO GOSS TO THE BALL GAME TOO WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A FUNCTIONING BUS SERVICE FOR PEOPLE WHO NEED TO GET TO WORK, HOW CAN WE KEEP INVESTING IN THAT WHEN WE DON'T HAVE BUSES THAT CAN RUN IN AN HOUR OR TWO.

IT'S A DISASTER RIGHT NOW.

>> WE HAVE $51 MILLION IN THE BANK FROM THE 2017 SALES TAX FOR THE NORTH-SOUTH EXTENSION AND IT'S JUST SITTING THERE.

PEOPLE WANT BUS SERVICE, BUT WE'RE MANNING ON SOME BIG NORTH-SOUTH METROLINK LIGHT RAIL WHICH PROBABLY WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

>> WELL, IT'S OVERRATED, BUT AS THEY SAY, JAMES EARL JONES, IT'S BASEBALL.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> THAT'S ALL WE HAVE FOR THIS SEGMENT.

WE'LL BE BACK IN A MOMENT AND WE'LL TELL THE FOLKS WHY, BUT LET'S GO TO THE NAIL BAG.

THE PANELISTS MADE INACCURATE COMMENTS ALLEGING INTOLERANCE IN THEIR DEFENSE OF SERIAL VIOLATOR NEW LIFE EVANGELISTIC CENTER.

WE HAVE A DECADES OF LONG HISTORY OF HARMONIOUS COEXISTENCE WITH RESPONSIBLE PLI OPERATED SHELTERS, LOW INCOME HOUSING AND A PUBLIC SCHOOL NEAR OUR HOMES.

THAT'S FROM PETE IN DOWNTOWN WEST.

YOU CAN WRITE US CARE OF DONNYBROOK, NINE PBS, 3655 OLIVE STREET, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63108.

DON'T FORGET THE EMAILS AND THE TWEETS.

REALLY FOLLOW US ANYWHERE YOU GETTER PODCASTS, INCLUDING THOSE PLACES RIGHT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH TO SARAH FENSKE AND JOE HOLLEMAN FOR SITTING IN.

WE APPRECIATE THAT.

STAY TUNED.

ON NEXT UP, GREG MYRE FROM PARKWAY CENTRAL AND NOW THE NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT FOR NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT UKRAINE.

RAY AND I WILL JOIN HIM.

THAT'S NEXT, DON'T GO AWAY.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.