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Well thank you very much for joining us for another edition of Donnybrook.

We found out this week that in Missouri we're going to have a busy August and we'll find out why.

But first, let's meet the panelists, starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Weisee from the Post-Dispatch, one of our founders, Bill McClellan.

From the 314 Podcast, the Daily Newsletter and St.

Louis Magazine, she's Sarah Fenske.

And from the St.

Louis American, Mr.

Alvin Reid.

Well Bill, I'm referring to August 2026, because on August the 4th, the Missouri primary is going to involve at least four major ballot issues.

But for our purposes, we'll discuss two.

One is this income tax proposal put on the ballot by Mike Keough, the governor of the state, which would reduce our income tax in the state to zero.

Currently it's 4.7%, that's the highest marginal tax rate, and they would, I guess, move the taxes to sales taxes, the dry cleaning tax, legal tax, advertising tax, we're not sure yet.

Let's start with that one.

Did the governor serve himself well, if he wants to reduce the income taxes by putting this on the August ballot?

Probably not, but I don't think that it has much of a chance on either August or November.

I kind of think that maybe the governor is a shrewd enough politician to know it has very little chance, but to think that there's some wealthy people who would like it, so he wants to act like he's supporting them, and there are some libertarians, I think mainly of Rex Sinquefield, who also is against, generally, income taxes.

And I admire Rex Sinquefield, and I don't think he's against income taxes, because he has so much of it.

I think he really believes it.

But I think the governor might think, you know, this thing is going to be a loser, but I'm going to get it out of the way, and I'm going to put it on the ballot, as if I believe in it.

Well, and that's really interesting, because I found myself thinking the same thing.

I thought, there's more to this, there is more to this, because he has to know that in the show-me state, where you really do, people are like, okay, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're going to have to show me exactly how this is going to happen, how you're going to bridge these gaps.

And the fact that, the Sinquefield thing is so interesting, but the fact that we're giving the legislature five years, right, to basically examine how they're going to do it, I don't think people have that, I don't, even with the, even the Republicans in this state, I think have their doubts about the Missouri legislature.

Well, I think, well, and there's also, in St.

Louis County, we're going to be voting on an online county-wide tax.

I think 54 municipalities already have it, but I guess it would now be the county, and then each municipality would get its cut, so, you know, taxes will be on there, I hope, I want that one to pass, but so many people are probably going to come in to vote no on the income tax, they just might be busy saying, no, no, no, no.

One problem is this, our friends on the west side of the state, one reason you got a two-time Democratic governor in what is a red state of Kansas, is because Kansas pulled this stunt, it exploded in their faces, and it just didn't work, it busted the state, so they're aware over there that, no, this won't work, so that's half the state, or at least a third of the state, and also, do you want to let the legislature of the state of Missouri have carte blanche on whatever they want to tax over the next few years?

I mean, they said, well, we're going to carve out there, but they haven't done anything, right, if we pass this, they can do whatever they want to, that's horrifying to me.

Yeah, I don't think many people would say, yeah, I want to turn to the Missouri legislature, because they'll come up with a very sophisticated plan to deal with tax policy.

I'm intrigued by your theory, Bill, because I do think this would have a good chance of passing in November.

I understand there's a poll that came out from SLU and UGOV, which is kind of like one of the best polls around of state voters, and eliminating the income tax is very popular, and so I think your lower information voter, who's more likely to turn out in November, they're going to go, yeah, let's get rid of this income tax, yeah, and not even think about what your August voter's going to do.

I may be completely out of touch with everything, but I just think that the realtors and the lawyers and all the people with the jobs that don't want to see have to be taxing people, that they're going to advertise and point out the problems with this, and that once you start telling people that, hey, look, your income isn't enough, that you're not going to make much off this, and you'll be paying all this heavy sales tax, but it's this rich guy over here that's going to have a windfall, I just don't think that the people are going to be, I'm voting for that.

What about, however, the initiative petition, Sarah?

This is a measure that's going to go on the August 4th primary ballot, and it'll make it more difficult for people to collect signatures, put it on the ballot, and then change the constitution of the state of Missouri.

Yeah, I mean, it's so maddening.

I don't know how that's going to do in August, or if it was in November, would it do better?

That's hard to say, because who even pays attention to these things except people who geek out on politics?

But it is infuriating that the legislature thinks this is a good idea, that, yeah, let's persuade these people to give away their right to petition their government and come up with new laws.

But what's the point?

They overturned the will of the people in so many cases that I think there's already a lot of apathy when it comes to voters in the state of Missouri.

Well, I don't know.

I mean, the good people of Festus got that petition together, and they're about to recall everybody.

Well, yeah, they sure did.

And it was like that.

But they had torches in-house.

I'm afraid that that one might pass.

I think that since it's so clearly aimed at diluting the influence of the big cities, of Kansas City and St.

Louis, that a lot of people in rural Missouri will think, yeah, I like the idea of, I'm sick of these people making the choices for us.

So I think that one of taking away the people's right to, you know, petition to hurt their right.

Sarah Fenske, Sarah, let's move on to another topic.

And this week in the city of St.

Louis, there was an aldermanic meeting, and members of the police board were subpoenaed to appear in front of the aldermen to explain their budget.

After all, the aldermen are in charge of crafting a budget that goes to the Board of Estimate and Proportionment, and the police are, I think, the single largest line item in the budget.

The police board refused to show up.

Now, the charter of the city says when you issue a subpoena, you can go to a judge and ask the judge to arrest the people who defy the subpoena.

It seems to me, if you're going to have a subpoena, you better go all the way, otherwise the subpoena means nothing.

Yeah, you're just showing your toothless, right?

And honestly, as much as I can see the enormous complication that could come out of trying to get an arrest warrant, you know, my colleague Ryan Krull had a really interesting story about this.

It would have to be the marshal who would have to go arrest them.

Well, the marshal is part of the police department.

I mean, logistically, it would be a nightmare.

But I'm at a point where I'm so fed up, it is so insulting that these guys have about, you know, 23 to 25 percent of the city's budget and they refuse to come before our elected representatives to answer questions about what they're spending it on and they refuse to comply with a subpoena.

I'm at the point where I'm saying, yeah, let's let's bring in the arrests.

Well, the attorney was saying that in terms of the the charter, that they that they would be violating the charter if they if they showed up because of the lawsuits, because the pending lawsuit.

That's what their lawyer is saying.

I think it's a complete smokescreen.

Well, this guy has not been acting in good faith.

Well, honestly, if it is true, though, if they are litigating acting in good faith, if they are going to litigate the budget, then you wouldn't want the principals appearing in public and saying things right.

Well, I well, I think that this is like the fire protection, the Northeast Fire Protection District under Albert Walton, where you do outrageous things and then they sue and then you countersue.

I mean, this just plays into the hands of the police board lawyer who has already billed the city over five hundred thousand dollars this year.

That if if you and I think DeVito, the alderman from the hill, OK, thank you, made the point that you're just going to make this thing a messy situation, messier, and you're going to get more lawsuits and the police board lawyer is going to make more money.

And so I think trying to arrest the members of the police board is not a good idea.

I think.

Go ahead.

No, no.

Go ahead.

No.

OK.

Oh, I was just going to say, you know, mobsters and gangsters, they get they get subpoenaed and they show up and then they just plead the fifth and don't say anything.

I think you have to appear.

You cannot send a lieutenant down there with 700 pages, drop it on a desk and, you know, thumb your nose to this this elected board, because technically what they're doing is that's to the people of St.

Louis.

Never mind just the mayor or the board of aldermen.

This is to the residents of the city of St.

Louis.

You're wrecking a relationship that was already tenuous at best.

And it's like they don't care.

And that's where I think you have to pick it up is it's like when you when you read it, first of all, it's like the days of our aldermanic lives.

I mean, it's the most unbelievable soap opera.

If I'm a young family, if I'm a taxpayer and I'm looking at, you know, maybe buying a house to to rehab in the city of St.

Louis reading this, I was like, no, thank you.

But I still think that this there's a bit of this revenge is best served cold.

You know, revenge is a dish best served cold.

And while the police board right now, I think they do have they have more clout than they've had in a while.

And I think that I think that just hear me out.

I think that the police officers were at felt that they were at war, you know, with with the previous mayor, with the previous circuit attorney.

And I just think a lot of this is what they were a key factor in electing the current mayor.

Totally understand.

So why would they just like let's treat her like dirt, even though we backed her one hundred percent?

They think she's not playing fair.

That this is just the police.

Well, yeah, I think the police board is being ridiculous.

But, you know, you have a situation where the citizens of St.

Louis are paying Chris Gravel to sue them.

And, you know, why would how does that work?

And you're just inviting him to make more money suing the people who are the taxpayers.

You make a great point, but the whole thing is just so it's so I agree.

It's so dysfunctional.

I'm at a point where I'm almost angry.

Like, I feel like Mike Kehoe needs to sit down the police board with the city elected officials and like say, hey, you guys have to find a way to work together because right now you are destroying the city of St.

Louis.

Like as a taxpayer, it's maddening.

Well, I think I think the police are very important to the Republicans in Jefferson City.

The police have been woefully underfunded, even though they've been given these seven percent pay raises.

There's still a farm team for the suburban police departments and they don't want to be there.

Three hundred officers short and they're doing what they think they have to do.

I don't like their tactics.

I don't like not showing up at meetings.

There's a lot of things I don't like about what the police board's doing, but they're on a mission.

Well, I agree, but I don't think this is the best way to accomplish it.

I mean, I've argued for a long time the police need more money, but the way this board is doing it is just is not how about this.

Wendy, when the board this week decided with about 24 hours just to buy some drone technology, it's it's called First Responder Drone or Drone First Responder.

It's all over the country right now.

Glendale, Arizona is one of the pioneers, New York, Denver, Los Angeles.

They all have drones, but somehow it's controversial here right now.

Should the police have drones?

Everything is controversial here.

Right.

That's seriously, they could they could decide they could be looking at laundromats and it would be another like, you know, huff and puff.

It's ridiculous.

But this is how this is.

This is why we don't get anything done.

I personally I know I'm alone on the panel.

I have no problem with drones, because if you if you don't have men and women on the beat, you have to have eyes in the sky.

And because this is not a this is not a supernatural thing.

They cannot, you know, sort of transmit to one another where something bad is happening.

I have no I have no problem with these guys either.

You're not alone on the panel.

OK, good.

No, you're not alone at all.

This to me goes back to the police board.

I have some reservations about drones, but I talked to the police chief about these.

I got to interview him the other day.

He had some really good arguments.

I'm like, you know what?

I don't feel that hostile to them.

But then they rammed this contract through with twenty four hours, like literally that was all the notice.

I don't like that.

The mayor says, hey, our city councilors don't even have time to read this contract before I have to vote on it.

That is not how you do a good drone system.

Also, that's how it would be misused.

This is why people fear it'll be used as espionage more than basically locating crimes.

And quite frankly, this I honestly believe I know other cities use them, but this is just another toy that the police department wants.

And if they ask, if they ask this board for a World War two howitzer that they could fire into the sky outside of their South Hampton quarters every morning at 7 a.m., that board would vote four to one.

Yes.

Give them the howitzer.

Alvin, you're right.

Anything can be misused.

Anything can be misused.

They can use these drones to fly over a pool and look at ladies sunbathing or something like that.

I don't know what.

So people are concerned.

So there have to be rules on it.

But, you know, it seems like the activists 10 years ago all wanted body cams on the police.

You know, they all wanted body cams and now they're objecting to the aerial drones.

It's amazing.

It's amazing where the mind goes first.

The pool with women and bathing.

Yeah, you're giving me a great argument against these drones, Charlie.

I don't think you can compare a World War two howitzer to a drone.

I'm just saying they will give the police anything they want.

Look, the media has cameras.

The police have helicopters with cameras.

Even the activists have their cameras.

Why?

What's wrong with that?

And instead of a high speed chase, you have a drone following.

Exactly.

Nobody gets hurt.

I think it's a good idea.

You bring up common sense.

Let me ask you about what happened this week when Greater St.

Louis, Inc., which is kind of like a quasi business organization in St.

Louis, headed up by Ron Kitchens.

He had a meeting with like minded individuals, someone from the NAACP, some union guys, someone from the data industry, all saying that data centers are great.

And Kitchens said that a lot of people have misinformation about data centers, that the concerns about electricity and water are overrated, kind of boogeyman, I think is what he called them.

What did you think?

He didn't say bogeyman.

Boo!

I am opposed to data centers.

I don't like them.

I don't like artificial intelligence.

I keep calling it A-1.

Like the steak sauce?

I think it's a bad idea.

And if Ron Kitchens likes them so much, have him put one in next to his house.

I mean, the more I read about them, they do take a lot of water.

They do.

Electrical bills do go up.

I mean, I'm just not convinced that by somebody who says, oh, these are bogeyman phony issues.

I think they're legitimate issues.

And the St.

Louis County NAACP wrote a statement on what they were trying to do with the one at Emerson.

And basically, they were appalled at the lack of transparency and impact on community and all that.

Meanwhile, here's a Dartmouth Pruitt of the city NAACP sitting on a panel saying like, these are the greatest things since sliced bread.

Which of the two is it?

Why are you here?

What is the black community going to get out of data centers being built everywhere?

And he said, like, they will help marginalized communities where our marginalized community had a tornado roar through it.

Hey, dude, you need to be concerned about that.

And I know they are.

But why are you even on this panel?

I wonder about that.

You know what?

If you read this morning's Washington Post, Bill was kind enough to forward that along.

Marginalized communities in Virginia are getting cardiovascular and pulmonary problems.

And just that marginalized communities.

I mean, the data centers there are turning out worse than they feared.

Well, the Wall Street Journal, I mean, they're critical thinking.

We've got to remember some critical thinking here.

The Wall Street Journal says that this is that the data centers are custom made for the new environmental crusade.

And there are also there.

You talked about the electric bills.

I believe in the state of California, some of the electrical the electricity bills surrounding some of these data centers have actually been reduced.

So last week, Joe and I were saying that there's only really one side being reported.

Everybody has decided that we're against data centers.

There are clearly people in Montgomery County and elsewhere who are not.

Well, let them have them and we'll see if it works out.

OK, we'll use them as the canary in the coal mine.

No, I'm serious.

If they listen, if they end up getting 15 billion dollars and it doesn't mess up the environment and suck up all the water and electricity, then then maybe I would be a little more lenient toward it.

But until then, no.

But we said we had the same conversations about nuclear power.

And I don't how many nuclear reactor meltdowns other than Three Mile Island.

OK, I was around Chernobyl.

Yeah, sorry.

I was thinking of the continental United States.

There's nuclear waste all over St.

Louis that is right to this day, like these ideas have consequences.

But it wasn't an ongoing Alvin.

What did you think about the St.

Louis Business Journal report that Google will get a billion dollars in personal property tax abatements in Montgomery County?

It's going to put in a 15 billion dollar operation.

That's the plan anyway.

But Google, whose CEO makes six hundred seventy million dollars a year, is going to get a tax break from the good, generous people of Montgomery County.

Could you imagine making seventy million dollars a year?

That's mind boggling.

Now, show me the money.

Yeah.

Write me the check for 15 billion and then we'll talk about your one billion tax abatement.

Fifteen minus one is, you know, 14.

I could live with that.

But until I see that 15 billion, then you're not getting one cent in tax abatement.

I just as in going back to that, you know, the panel that they had, someone said like it's a limited risk.

Well, limited risk is risk.

Last time I saw.

So thus, no tax abatement until I know.

Why do they need a tax abatement at all?

Amen.

That's the correct answer we're looking for.

We need that.

We need to put them somewhere.

And Montgomery says, OK, we'll take them.

They said, well, now we want some dough.

I don't get that at all.

Yeah, I think they should be paying.

Data centers are just looking for like the weakest link.

Right.

And so like if some city takes a hard line, they're like, oh, well, you know, let's go down to Memphis.

They don't have any rules there.

And then like you see what's happening in Memphis.

It's like, what are these Missouri communities doing?

I don't know.

I tried to compromise.

You just walk.

I don't we don't compromise.

Bogeyman does not compromise.

Who do we go to next?

I think it's you, Sarah.

Summertime in St.

Louis.

Here we are.

Memorial Day was Monday.

Hope you and your family had a nice one in East St.

Louis.

The pool there hasn't been open for 10 years in St.

Louis County.

They closed this year, the St.

Vincent and the Kennedy pools.

And in the city of St.

Louis this past weekend, there was a big argument between the mayor of the city of St.

Louis and the police.

She wanted the police to patrol the pools and they've always done with the Rangers.

But they backed out.

They say they don't have enough Rangers to do that.

There's so many parks, a hundred or so in the city of St.

Louis, they didn't have the police power to do that.

So she's going to use the sheriffs.

But it seems to me like swimming in the summer, which should be a big, important activity, especially in a nation that needs socialization and exercise.

You would think that pools would be a priority, but they don't seem to be around here.

Yeah, it makes me really sad.

I think if there's one thing that we could be investing in right now that would be really good for the kids, it's public pools.

It feels like wealthier kids are always going to be able to figure out how to get into a neighbor's pool or a country club.

But I was a kid who grew up going to a public pool and those were like just the best days of your life, you know, that you could just sit around all day and do cannonballs in the pool and get yelled at by the lifeguards and just have a fun time.

And, you know, there's also so few areas where kids can interact with their friends anymore, you know, that are different than being at home with your phones in this age where we feel like everybody needs a chaperone.

And it just it feels like this should be a priority.

And yet it's not something I hear anyone talking about.

And I know the big joke in St.

Louis is we have too many nonprofits, but we should all start a nonprofit right here to like make this happen and like raise millions to give the kids swimming.

I agree.

Our government isn't doing what we what we have.

I mean, even with the even with the pools that have that that that are going to be very expensive to rehab and have plummeting attendance.

I get that in the county.

It appears they don't really do a good job of maintaining anything.

They can't even keep their own building, which is only 30 or 40 years old in proper condition to habitat.

And so they haven't maintained their pools.

And that is very sad.

But they should have maintained those pools.

And somebody needs to come up with a bond issue to make sure that we have good pools going forward.

It can't be that expensive.

All kids need to learn how to swim for a safety measure and especially black kids, because if you look across the nation, you take the percentage of kids that drown.

It's way too high for minority kids.

They need to learn how to swim.

And this is the only opportunity is that probably at a public pool, especially in the city.

So, yes, open these pools, do whatever you need to do, fix them, hire lifeguards, but have these pools open.

Well, let's pay lifeguards a little more.

My granddaughter is a lifeguard, Evie Sanchez is a lifeguard this summer at the Webster Groves pool.

So I think as a nonprofit, let's raise money for lifeguards.

I just said this wouldn't be that expensive.

And now you're upping the hourly rate.

Like that's counterproductive here.

I think it's great.

I think it's a great skill.

You know, Laurie Scravan, who won the Pulitzer Prize in photography, she was a lifeguard at the Shaw pool.

And in fact, Greg Meyrie, who's the national security correspondent for NPR, worked at a pool in the summertime.

And lifeguard is good on your resume when you're headed to college.

And now they look at what you're you know, what you've done other than like giga grades.

That's colleges like that, employers like that, because you took on a level of responsibility that has some pressure with it.

Well, and I think Sarah's idea is a good one.

There should be a not for profit foundation that supports swimming pools.

You know, there was a guy from St.

Louis by the name of Doc Councilman.

If you go to Indiana University, you'll see the aquatic center is named after him.

He was the longtime Olympics coach.

He was the Mark Spitz coach back in the day.

And he he actually invented pools that are modernized right now.

In fact, he's got a company in South County.

He's no longer with us, but I think it's called Hunsaker Councilman.

So we have the heritage right here.

But what's so amazing is we have we have finally reached the point where we have the money.

We just don't have the people.

That's that's what's really kind of scary.

What do you mean, the people, the people, the staff, the pools?

Well, you know, other cities like New York and California, they are hiring senior citizens like me.

Yeah, that's New York and California.

They they have white people.

Topic is, yes, I would like to work along with Bill's granddaughter.

I would do it if it would keep the pools open in September.

That's my next goal.

Or not close on Labor Day.

I don't want to be a lifeguard.

But if you need it, like just some adults to hang out, maybe, you know, like just, you know, I it does seem odd that we need police presence at pools, though.

No, you need police presence everywhere.

Yeah, you do.

That's them all.

All right.

To the issue.

That's right.

Let's go to the old mailbag and see what people had to say about last week's show.

I can't believe you all dissed the kids and their tarps off craze.

They could be out running in the streets, causing mischief.

Instead, they're putting butts in our stadium seats, which has been sorely needed.

That from Jackie Sterling of Webster Groves.

Your discussion regarding the lack of judicial experience last week reminded me that Elena Kagan also had no judicial experience when President Obama nominated her to the Supreme Court.

That from Glenn Steinkamp of St.

Louis panelists continuing to say that data centers are a NIMBY issue.

Miss the bigger picture that everyone has some sort of backyard and these data centers are becoming universally despised.

This is a local, state and national issue and a nonpartisan one at that.

That from Rod Garbo of Chesterfield.

Bob Wilson of West County wrote, calling the tarps off crowd Hoosiers seems a bit harsh.

Maybe the Cardinal fans could emulate the Cubs fans of old when they threw radio batteries from the bleachers at LeBron.

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