>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

HAPPY CINCO DE MAYO.

LOTS TO TALK ABOUT.

LET'S MEET PANELISTS.

SITTING IN FOR WENDY WIESE, SARAH FENSKE.

MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

RAY HARTMANN FROM THE BIG 550 KTRS RAWSTORY.COM AND THERE'S ALVIN REID FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN.

WE'LL KICK OFF THIS CINCO DE MAYO WITH YOU, ALVIN, AND THE CONVENTION CENTER.

MAYBE SOME DAY THERE WILL BE CONVENTIONS FROM MEXICO AND BEYOND COMING TO DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS IF THAT CONVENTION CENTER IS EXPANDED.

THAT'S THE HOPES OF KITTY RADCLIFFE WHO HEADS UP EXPLORE ST. LOUIS, BUT SOMETHING UNUSUAL HAPPENED THIS WEEK WHEN RICHARD BRADLEY ASKED HOW MANY BIDS THERE WERE FOR THE SECOND PHASE OF THE $70 MILLION PROJECT TO EXPAND THE CONVENTION CENTER AND HE WAS TOLD ZERO.

AND HE SAID, LET ME JUST GET THAT RIGHT.

THERE WERE NO BIDS TO EXPAND THE CONVENTION CENTER?

WHAT THE HECK, ALVIN, IS GOING ON?

>> I'M SORRY TO BUST OUT LAUGHING, BUT THAT'S HOW IT WAS WHEN I FIRST SAW THAT.

ALL RIGHT, NO BIDS.

FIRST OF ALL, MY YOUNGEST DAUGHTER AT UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI SHORTLY MORE THAN A YEAR FROM NOW WILL HAVE HER ENGINEERING DEGREE AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, McCLELLAN REED AND BLAINE REED COULD PUT TOGETHER A BID FOR 75 MILLION.

>> I THINK WE CAN DO THAT.

>> I MEAN, SERIOUSLY, NOBODY OUT THERE PUT SO FORTH A BID?

KEEP IN MIND, COULDN'T YOU BID LIKE REALLY HIGH OR WHATEVER AND JUST THEN NEGOTIATE?

IT'S YOUR PROJECT.

>> AND DON'T FORGET, THE FIRST HALF OF THE PROJECT CAME IN 50% OVERBID AND THERE WAS JUST ONE BIDDER, RAY.

>> FREE MARKET.

I DON'T KNOW -- >> I THOUGHT YOU HAD AN ANSWER TO THIS.

>> I DID.

I TALKED TO A COUPLE PEOPLE.

I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT TO TRY TO GIVE AN ANSWER.

FIRST, THE CITY MANAGES THIS PROJECT AND THE FIRST BID, THEY'RE BREAKING GROUND OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT NEXT WEEK, SO THE MAIN PROJECT IS GOING FORWARD.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THIS IS A NATIONAL PROBLEM, THAT THIS IS NOT -- FOR ONCE, IT'S NOT A ST. LOUIS THING.

THE OLD COURTHOUSE HAD THE SAME SITUATION WHERE THERE WAS A PROJECT RECENTLY AND THERE WERE NO BIDS ON THE FIRST ROUND.

IT'S APPARENTLY GOT TO DO WITH COSTS GOING UP DRAMATICALLY BECAUSE OF INFLATION, BECAUSE OF COVID, BECAUSE OF SUPPLY CHAIN, AND EVERY -- WHAT HAPPENS IS THE CITY -- AND IT'S REALLY NOT THE CITY'S FAULT.

THE CITY PUBLIC SERVICE BOARD PUTS THESE OUT MONTHS AHEAD OF TIME AND IN THE INTERIM, THAT THE COST -- THE ECONOMY CHANGED SO MUCH AND THE COSTS CHANGED SO MUCH, THAT THEY JUST -- THEY LOST THE AUDIENCE BASICALLY.

WHICH DOESN'T MEAN IT'S DEAD.

IT MEANS YOU HAVE TO REBID IT, BUT I WILL SAY THIS.

I DON'T SHARE THE VIEW THAT THE CDC, FOR EXAMPLE, SHOULD BLAME IT ALL ON RITA HEARD DAYS.

THEY'RE BLAMING IT ON THE DELAYS OF THE COUNTY.

I THINK SHE PLAYED HER ROLE FINE AND I HAPPEN TO THINK SHE WAS IN THE RIGHT.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT -- >> BUT THIS CONSTRUCTION IS GOING ON EVERYWHERE, NOT ONLY IN ST. LOUIS, BUT EVERYWHERE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THE IDEA THAT WE CAN'T GET A SINGLE PERSON TO BID ON THIS BECAUSE IT'S A NATIONWIDE PROBLEM, IT CAN'T BE.

THERE'S CONSTRUCTION GOING ON EVERYWHERE.

>> BUT THAT'S ALMOST PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THERE'S A HUGE LABOR SHORTAGE RIGHT NOW IN THE SKILLED TRADES.

THE CONTRACTORS CANNOT FIND ENOUGH PEOPLE TO STAFF THESE JOBS, AND SO NOW THAT THESE COST ESTIMATES ARE OUT OF DATE, AS RAY IS SAYING, IT'S AN EVEN BIGGER PROBLEM.

>> I'M THE STIS ONE WHO LIKES TO -- FIRST ONE WHO LIKES TO JUMP ON THE CITY FOR BEING -- >> I'M NOT JUMPING ON THE CITY.

I JUST DON'T GET IT.

>> NO, I THINK THE CONTRACTORS ARE VOTING WITH THEIR FEED.

>> BUT THIS MEANS THAT THE SECOND HALF IS GOING TO BE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE BECAUSE OF SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUES -- >> PROBABLY.

>> -- AND WE KNOW THE FIRST ONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE $80 MILLION AND NOW IT'S 124 MILLION.

DOES THIS MEAN THAT RITA DAYS' NORTH COUNTY REC PLEX IS DEAD?

>> THE WHOLE PROJECT IS -- THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING IS, OKAY, LABOR SHORTAGE, WHATEVER.

ALL RIGHT, THAT MEANS THAT INSTEAD OF BEING DONE IN THREE YEARS, MAYBE WE'RE DOWN IN FOUR AND A HALF, FIVE YEARS.

I STILL DON'T SEE WHY NO ONE WANTS THIS MONEY.

IT'S MONEY AND LAST TIME I LOOKED, PEOPLE WANT MONEY.

I DON'T GET THAT.

>> IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'RE JUST RIEG YOU A CHECK.

YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK AND SHOW UP WITH THE RIGHT SUBCONTRACTORS.

PEOPLE CAN'T FIND ENOUGH -- >> I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THE BID.

I CAN MAKE A BID.

YOU'RE TELLING ME THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN DO THIS, BUT AT LEAST I PUT FORTH A BID.

IF NO ONE IS BIDDING, THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG.

>> I THINK YOU RAISE A GREAT COMMON-SENSE POINT, BUT I THINK THE ANSWER IS, REALLY, THAT YOU'RE MAKING THE POINT THAT -- THE FACT THAT THE CONTRACTORS AREN'T BIDDING IS YOUR ANSWER.

THEY ARE SO FREAKED OUT, I THINK, ABOUT THE UNCERTAINTY OF THE ECONOMY AND THE UNCERTAINTY OF THE COST STRUCTURE AND THE SUPPLY CHAIN THAT IF THEY COMMIT TO THIS, THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS.

>> OKAY, LET'S MOVE ON.

BILL, BY THE WAY, ENJOY YOUR TIE.

DOES THAT HAVE A CINCO DE MAYO FLAVOR?

>> YES, IT DOES.

THESE ARE MAYAN -- WHATEVER THEY USE.

I GOT IT WHEN I WAS AT MY BROTHER-IN-LAW'S WEDDING IN MEXICO YEARS AGO.

>> WELL, IT LOOKS VERY SHARP.

>> I CAN REMEMBER WHEN WE -- >> IT'S MAYAN.

>> CHARLIE, WHEN WE WERE YOUNGER, I CAN REMEMBER THAT CINCO DE MAYO WOULD HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT IMPACT ON THE SHOW THAN IT DOES NOW.

>> NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

WELL -- >> WE'D HAVE LITTLE UMBRELLAS IN OUR CUPS.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF MARTIN DUGGAN WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THAT.

HE WOULD NOT HAVE.

WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT -- LET ME ASK YOU THIS, BILL.

THIS WEEK, THE FIFTH PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES TO BE EXECUTED IN 2022 WAS EXECUTED IN MISSOURI.

CARMAN DECK, HE KILLED A COUPLE, A HEINOUS CRIME IN 1996.

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE IN FAVOR OF IT.

I HAD MAJOR RESERVATIONS, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT WAS POINTED OUT THAT AS A KID, HE WAS ABUSED.

IN FACT, HE WAS STARVED BY HIS MOTHER WHO WOULDN'T GIVE HIM INFANT FORMULA.

HE ENDED UP IN THE HOSPITAL AND IN 23 HOMES BEFORE THE AGE OF 18.

SHOULD A PERSON LIKE THIS BE EXECUTED?

>> WELL, I'VE CHANGED MY MIND ON THAT.

I WAS A STATE'S WITNESS AT THREE EXECUTIONS, AND I THOUGHT, HEY, IF SOMEBODY DOES SOMETHING REALLY TERRIBLE AND WE'RE CERTAIN THEY DID IT, EXECUTION IS ALL RIGHT.

AND I'VE CHANGED MY MIND.

AND I NO LONGER SUPPORT EXECUTIONS.

I THINK LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE, IT OUGHT TO BE LIKE IT IS, WITHOUT PAROLE.

I'M NO LONGER IN FAVOR OF THE DEATH PENALTY.

>> YOU KNOW, I'M KIND OF LIKE THAT.

WHEN I WAS YOUNGER, REALLY YOUNGER, I MEAN TEENS AND WHATNOT, I WAS STAUNCHLY AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY AND AS I GREW OLDER, NOT MUCH OLDER, INTO MY 20s, NO, PEOPLE DO THINGS THAT DESERVEDLY I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD GET THE DEATH PENALTY.

I KNOW THERE'S PROBLEMS IT WITH AND IT'S UNFAIR IN MANY WAYS.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE ONE COME UP NOW.

THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN IN KIRKWOOD KILLED A POLICE OFFICER, I THINK IN 2005, AND HE GOT THE DEATH PENALTY.

THEN A WHITE YOUNG MAN KILLED A POLICE OFFICER AND BOB McCULLOUGH DIDN'T EVEN SEEK THE DEATH PENALTY.

THAT'S ONE OF THOSE CASES, OKAY, EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT THE DIFFERENCES ARE.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, YOU CAN DO THINGS AND I THINK IF YOU -- IF A JURY SAYS YOU SHOULD GET IT, I JUST CAN'T STAND IF THE WAY -- STAND IN THE WAY OF IT.

>> I'M WITH BILL.

I WAS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY BEFORE I WAS AGAINST IT AND THEN I THINK I WAS FOR IT AGAIN.

BUT NO, I'VE GONE BACK AND FORTH ON THIS.

I'M WITH BILL.

WE JUST CAN'T GET IT RIGHT.

I SUSPECT IF YOU SAID YOU HAD TO HAVE A DEATH PENALTY, WOULD THIS BE THE CASE YOU WOULD DO IT, IT'S NOT A PARTICULARLY SYMPATHETIC CASE, BUT I THINK WE JUST -- WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF DNA CASES, THE CASES WHERE DNA HAS EXONERATED PEOPLE WHERE WE GOT THE WRONG PERSON, WHICH ALSO MEANS THE REAL KILLER IS LOOSE, WHICH IS A HUGE ISSUE, I JUST THINK THAT -- I JUST DON'T THINK WE CAN GET IT RIGHT AND IF YOU CAN'T GET IT RIGHT FOR ANYONE, YOU CAN'T DO IT FOR ANYONE.

>> WELL, THE LAST TIME I WENT -- I WAS A STATE'S WITNESS AT AN EXECUTION, I WAS GOING DOWN THERE TO MEET FATHER CABOT WHO WOULD GET ARRESTED AT EVERY EXECUTION, AND HE GOT ARRESTED AT THIS ONE AND I WENT IN TO WITNESS THE EXECUTION.

I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, FATHER CABOT MIGHT BE ON TO SOMETHING.

AND NOT THAT THERE'S EVEN A QUESTION OF GUILT USUALLY, BUT IF YOU HAVE A REALLY SLICK LAWYER, THE CHANCES ARE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET IT.

THERE'S JUST A LOT -- AND LIKE YOU WERE SAYING WITH CARMAN DECK, HEINOUS CRIME, SHOULD NEVER BREATHE FREE AIR AGAIN, BUT I'M NO LONGER IN SUPPORT OF THAT.

>> VERY WELL.

LET ME ASK YOU, SARAH, AS WE SWITCH TOPICS HERE, THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS HAS A MEASURE WHICH WOULD NOT ALLOW THE HOMELESS TO HAVE TENTS ON RIGHTS-OF-WAY LIKE STREETS, SIDEWALKS, AND ALLEYS.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S LEGALLY OKAY BECAUSE AROUND THE COUNTRY, THAT'S WHAT HOMELESS ARE BASICALLY DOING AND I THINK THEY'RE WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS IN MOST CASES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS MEASURE WHICH WOULD BASICALLY SAY IF YOU DON'T LIVE THERE, YOU CAN'T HAVE A TENT ON THE CITY SIDEWALK?

>> I THINK THERE'S A REAL PUSH-FULL RIGHT NOW AT THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN.

THERE'S A PROGRESSIVE WING THAT IS TRYING TO LIBERALIZE HOW THE CITY DEALS WITH ITS HOMELESS RESIDENTS AND THIS IS THE BAB LASH TO THAT.

YOU'VE GOT BASICALLY AN EVEN SPLIT ON THAT BOARD, SO YOU HAVE YOUR LEFT OF CENTER, BUT STILL DEMOCRAT, MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN SAYING WE DON'T WANT THIS IN OUR WARD, ON OUR SIDEWALK.

THERE'S A CAMP DOWN BY THE RIVER DES PERES AND THEY'RE NOT SO USED TO HAVING CAMPS DOWN THERE AND THEY DON'T LIKE IT.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THIS THING CAN GET PAST THE FULL BOARD.

IT MANAGED TO GET SUPPORT IT WANTED IN COMMITTEE, BUT EVERYBODY WHO CAME IN FAVOR, INTEGRITY IN FAVOR OF THIS MEASURE THAT WOULD BASICALLY BAN THE HOMELESS FROM THE PUBLIC THOROUGHFARES WERE ALL OPPOSED.

THERE'S A VERY LARGE VOCAL CONTINGENCY IN THIS CITY OPPOSED TO IT.

WHILE I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE SUPPORT THIS, THOSE PEOPLE DIDN'T SHOW UP.

>> IN AUSTIN, TEXAS, VERY LIBERAL PLACE WHERE MY SON LIVES, IT WENT ON THE BALLOT WHETHER THEY SHOULD ROUST THE HOMELESS FROM THE PUBLIC PARKS, AND IN VERY LIBERAL AUSTIN, THE PEOPLE VOTED YES, ROUST THE PEOPLE.

BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE THEY COULDN'T USE THE PARKS ANYMORE.

>> OKAY, IF YOU DO THAT, MAYBE THE THINKING IS THAT IT SPURS COMMUNITIES, CITY GOVERNMENT, STATES TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.

>> I THINK WE KNOW.

I USED TO LIVE IN LOS ANGELES.

IT DOESN'T SPUR PEOPLE.

PEOPLE JUST HAVE NOWHERE TO GO AND THE PROBLEM WE HAVE -- >> NO, NO, NOT SPUR PEOPLE, BUT SPUR GOVERNMENTS.

>> SPUR GOVERNMENTS.

BUT GOVERNMENTS HAVE NOT DEALT WITH THIS ANYMORE, EVEN IN THE BLUEST CITIES IN THE BLUEST STATES.

IN ST. LOUIS RIGHT NOW, WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH SHELTER BEDS FOR EVERYBODY WHO WANTS THEM.

THE MAYOR SAID SHE BELIEVES WE DO, BUT TALKING TO PEOPLE IN THE PROVIDER COMMUNITY, IT'S VERY CLEAR WE DON'T.

>> PETER AND PAUL IN SOULARD IS STARTING A EFFORT TO GET OUT FROM THE CHURCH BASEMENT, YOU KNOW, WHERE THEIR SHELTER IS IN ST. PETER AND PAUL CHURCH AND FIND A NEW LOCATION AND HAVE MORE BEDS AND MORE PROGRAMS.

PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT WE GOT TO DO SOMETHING.

>> AND IT'S ALSO IN A WORD WHERE EVERYBODY'S -- WE'RE ALL POLARIZED AND EVERYBODY IS APART ON EVERY ISSUE.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT REALLY A PHILOSOPHY.

EVERYBODY'S PHILOSOPHY, WHETHER LIBERAL OR CONSERVATIVE, IS OVER HERE AND THE REALITY OF HAVING IT IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD OR HOME, SUDDENLY THERE'S NEVER AN ISSUE THAT HAS A BIGGER GULF BETWEEN WHAT PEOPLE STAND FOR AND WHAT THEY'LL STAND FOR IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD.

>> THAT IS SO TRUE.

BILL, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE LOCKS AT THE JAIL.

DAN ISOM HAD A WALK-THROUGH TODAY, TOOK MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA THROUGH THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER DOWNTOWN AND POINTED OUT THAT THE LOCKS IN ONE SECTION NOW FREIGHT PROPERLY.

$7 MILLION JOB.

THEY'RE GOING TO MOVE TO OTHER QUAD DRANS OF THE JAIL AND IT WILL COST $20 MILLION.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE CITY IS ON THE RIGHT ROAD HERE?

>> WELL, THEY ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE WORKING LOCKS AT THE JAIL.

THAT GOES OUT SAYING.

I THOUGHT THAT DAN ISOM IS A LITTLE TOO MUCH OF A PRESS AGENT THESE DAYS WHEN HE WAS SAYING THAT WE'RE -- AFTER DECADES OF NEGLECT, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THE PLACE WAS BUILT IN 2002.

SO DEPENDING ON WHEN THEY FIRST WENT IN THERE, IT MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE HIT DECADES YET.

IT MIGHT JUST BE 19 YEARS.

I THOUGHT -- AND NOBODY -- WELL, I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE ARE BLAMING TISHAURA JONES FOR THIS, BUT MAYBE THEY ARE.

>> WELL, I THINK THERE IS A MOVEMENT IN THE CITY THAT TISHAURA HAS TO DEAL WITH, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES ABOLITIONISTS AND BY THAT THEY SAY THEY DON'T WANT ANY MORE MONEY TO GO INTO THE JAILS AND SHE SAID SHE WANTED TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON SOCIAL SERVICES AND NOT JAILS.

SHE HAS ON ANSWER TO THAT.

SOME OF THE UNREST IN THE YAILS JAILS, SOME OF THE THINGS HANG TO PEOPLE THERE MADE CLEAR WE DO HAVE TO SPEND MONEY ON THIS, BUT SHE HAS A CONSTITUENCY THAT WOULD NOT SUPPORT FURTHER INVESTMENT.

>> I KNOW SHE COMPLAINED ON CLOSING THE WORKHOUSE AND NOW WE'VE GOT POOR DAN ISOM CALLING IT THE ANNEX BECAUSE WE CAN'T CALL IT THE WORKHOUSE ANYMORE.

>> ALL THESE ATTACKS ON MY FRIEND DAN ISOM.

>> THESE PERSONAL VICIOUS ATTACKS -- >> NO, SARAH'S POINT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE SHE SAYS THE MAYOR DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND MONEY, BUT THE MAYOR LOST MONEY BY NOT TAKING THE FEDERAL MONEY FOR THE FEDERAL DETAINEES AND I THINK THE MAYOR MADE THE SITUATION WORSE FOR DETAINEES WHO LIVE IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE IN PLACES LIKE KENTUCKY AND INDIANA AND ILLINOIS BECAUSE THESE FEDERAL DETAINEES ARE NOT WELCOME LOCAL WILL I.

THEIR LAWYERS CAN'T VISIT THEM, THE FAMILIES CAN'T VISIT THEM AND THE CITY IS NOT GETTING THE MONEY.

THEY'D BE MUCH BETTER OFF AT THE ANNEX/WORKHOUSE.

>> I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS OVERCROWDED -- >> WE'RE JUST SAYING THEY GOT ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS.

SOME PEOPLE HAD TO GO TO KENTUCKY OR WHATEVER.

IT IS JAIL.

NOT THAT PEOPLE DON'T HAVE RIGHTS, ALL RIGHT?

AND THERE'S SOME CONSTITUENCIES JUST WANT TO LET THE PEOPLE GO, BUT I THINK THESE SAME CONSTITUENTS ARE SAYING, NO, WE CAN'T TO LET THE ONES GO THAT ARE SEEKING A COLLEGE EDUCATION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WE'RE NOT JUST GOING TO THROW THE DOORS OPEN AND LET EVERYBODY OUT.

PEOPLE IN ST. LOUIS WOULD SAY ABSOLUTELY NOT.

IT'S LIKE THE HOMELESS, YEAH I WANT THEM OUT, BUT I DON'T WANT THEM OUT HERE.

>> EXACTLY.

I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT.

THAT'S EXACTLY -- >> YOU KNOW WHEN HOUSES ARE FOR SALE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND THEY HAVE THAT LOCK ON IT WHERE THE ONLY PERSON THAT CAN GET IN IS THE REALTOR?

I DON'T THINK THERE'S COST $20 MILLION.

I DON'T GET THAT PART.

I JUST -- >> WELL, THEY NEED MORE ELABORATE LOCKS HERE, BUT LET'S SAY ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER AND THE ANNEX, THE FORMER WORKHOUSE, THESE ARE PEOPLE WAITING FOR TRIAL AND THE FEDS HAVE THEIR SYSTEM WHERE YOU BASICALLY GET TO GO HOME AND THEY CHECK IN WITH YOU CONSTANTLY AND THEY WEAR AN ANKLE BRACELET, AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING WHY CAN'T WE DO THIS ON THE CIRCUIT LEVEL AS WELL.

>> JUST LIKE HOMELESS, SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS, YOU WONDER WHY ANYBODY RUNS FOR OFFICE.

I WANT TO BE CLEAR, I AM PROLOCK WHEN IT COMES -- I JUST AM.

ONE OF MY CONSERVATIVE POSITIONS, PRO LOCK WHEN IT COMES TO PRISONS, BUT I THINK THAT -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK OF THE -- TAKE IT TO THE EXTREME, IT CAN BE A COUSIN OF DEFUND THE POLICE.

MEANING WHAT ABOUT THE POOR PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS WHEN THESE FOLKS GET OUT IF THEY ARE DANGEROUS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I DO THINK WE'VE HAD A HABIT OF INCARCERATING TOO MANY PEOPLE THAT DID NOT NEED INCARCERATION.

WE'VE CRIMINALIZED MENTAL HEALTH INSTEAD OF TREATING IT, SO I'M GENERALLY SYMPATHETIC TO THE JUDGED OF NOT -- THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN -- >> THAT'S WHAT SOME PEOPLE SAID ABOUT ONE ANTOINE MILLER WHO GOT OUT AND ENDED UP SHOOTING HIS NEIGHBOR.

>> BUT THERE'S A LEGITIMATE CONCERN THAT WE CRIMINALIZE POVERTY AND MENTAL HEALTH.

>> WELL, LET ME ASK YOU, ALVIN, ABOUT ANOTHER LAW AND ORDER TOPIC.

APPARENTLY AFTER APRIL 11th WHEN THERE WAS A DISCIPLINARY PANEL THAT, AS BILL McCLELLAN SAID, THREW THE PANDEMIC -- PAMPHLET AT KIM GARDNER WHILE PROSECUTING THEN GOVERNOR ERIC GREITENS, ON THE NEXT DAY, APRIL 12th, SEVEN GRAND JURORS WHO INDICTED WILLIAM DONALD TISABY, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, WROTE THIS LETTER TO JUDGE REX BURL SON AND SAID, HEY, WE THINK IT'S TERRIBLE THAT THE DISCIPLINARY PANEL IS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH ON KIM GARDNER AFTER HER MISCONDUCT.

THEY CALLED THE DECISION BY THE PANEL REPREHENSIBLE AND THEY CALLED THEIR OWN EFFORT A WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE PERSON ON THE GRAND JURY THAT WANTED TO SPEAK ABOUT THE FERGUSON SITUATION AND SAID BOB McCULLOUGH THREW THE CASE SO THE POLICE OFFICER WOULD NOT BE CHARGED AND HE WAS THREATENED WITH GOING TO JAIL.

OPEN YOUR MOUTH, SPEAK ANYMORE, AND YOU'LL BE GOING TO JAIL.

OKAY?

WHERE WAS THIS ALL AT?

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY FOUND ANY FREEDOM OF INFORMATION OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT HE SAID, BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO TRASH OUT KIM GARDNER.

AND ALSO, I WISH I KNEW THIS AND I DON'T.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE SIT ON A GRAND JURY BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE IT'S MORE THAN 12.

THIS MIGHT NOT EVEN BE HALF OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE IMPANELED.

SO I'M TAKING THAT WITH A -- THIS IS SOME, YOU KNOW, KIM GARDNER HATE.

NOT A BIG FAN OF HER, BUT I'M LIKE -- >> YOU STILL WRITE -- THE OTHER THING IS, THESE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS NOR DO ANY OF US REALLY TO WEIGH IN ON THE RATHER HIGH LEVEL QUESTIONS WITHIN THE LEGAL SYSTEM OF WHAT SORT OF DISCIPLINE THE SUPREME COURT OR THE -- >> OH, WRONG AGAIN.

>> EXCUSE ME, THE OCD MADE THE -- THE CHIEF DISCIPLINARIAN CAME TO AN AGREEMENT WITH KIM GARDNER, OKAY?

THIS IS ABOUT -- YOU TALK ABOUT MISCONDUCT.

THE JURORS ARE NOT LAWYERS.

THEY HAVE NO REASON TO KNOW THIS.

>> RAY, RAY, THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HEARD THE CASE.

I MEAN -- >> BUT THEY DON'T KNOW -- >> THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE CASE.

TO SAY THEY HAVE NO STANDING BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT LAWYERS?

>> THEY DON'T.

THEY HEARD ONE SIDE OF THE CASE FROM THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

THIS WOULD BE LIKE IF KEN STARR MADE HIS CASE ABOUT BILL CLINTON AND WE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING FROM THE OTHER SIDE, THEY WERE IN A LOCKED ROOM, IS BILL CLINTON A BAD GUY?

THOSE JURORS ARE PROBABLY GOING TO ASSUME HE IS.

THAT'S HOW A GRAND JURY WORKS.

>> I TEND TO AGREE WITH THE UNQUALIFIED GRAND JURORS THAT IT WAS A VERY LIGHT PENALTY BECAUSE I THINK IT'S VERY SERIOUS FOR A PROSECUTOR TO KNOWINGLY WITHHOLD INFORMATION IN A CASE.

RAY, I DO.

>> I KNOW YOU DO.

>> MUCH AS I DISLIKE ERIC GREITENS, I THINK HE DESERVES A FAIR TRIAL.

>> I'LL SAY THIS.

I THINK THE GRAND JURY WAS RIGHT ABOUT ONE THING.

IT WAS A WASTE OF TIME.

THE ENTIRE PROCESS IN A CASE THAT WAS DISMISSED, THAT WAS REALLY -- A CHALLENGE WAS -- >> I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.

THESE GRAND JURORS SPENT LIKE A YEAR ON THIS AND IT STARTED FOUR YEARS AGO.

THEY ENDED THEIR WORK THREE YEARS AGO.

THAT WAS A LOT OF TIME THEY TOOK OUT OF THEIR LIVES AND THEN THEY FOUND OUT THAT WHEN KIM GARDNER HAD INTERVIEWED K.S.

AND THEY SAID WHERE'S YOUR NOTES, SHE DIDN'T HAND OVER ANY.

THEY SAID SHE DIDN'T HAVE THEM AND SHE DOES HAVE NOTES.

>> HOLD IT, HOLD IT.

>> THIS IS ALL PART OF THE -- >> I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS LETTER.

I'M IMPANELED ON A GRAND JURY WHICH DECIDES WHETHER TO INDICT SOMEBODY.

SO WE VOTE TO INDICT THEM.

THEN THE JURY LETS THEM WALK OUT THE DOOR, NOT GUILTY.

YOU DON'T HEAR THE GRAND JURORS TALK ABOUT A TRAVESTY OF JUSTICE.

THEY GOT ON WITH THEIR LIVES.

>> AND NOBODY WASTES THEIR TIME -- >> AND THIS IS WHY IT'S SO UNPRECEDENTED.

NO GRAND JURY HAS EVER WRITTEN A LETTER LIKE THAT THIS THAT I KNOW OF.

>> AND THEY DON'T HAVE STANDING TO DO IT.

>> THEY WERE THERE WHEN THEY SAW THE EVIDENCE.

>> I EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

THEY ONLY HEARD ONE.

THEY DON'T -- IT WOULD BE ONE THING IF THE JURORS, I GUESS, CAME FORWARD AND SAID WE SAT THROUGH FOUR WEEKS OF THIS TRIAL AND WE -- EVEN THEN, THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE THE -- >> YOU THINK THE JURORS SHOULD BE ABLE TO DECIDE GUILT OR INNOCENCE?

>> I DO.

I'M NOT -- >> THEY'RE NOT LAWYERS.

>> NO ONE IS ARGUING ABOUT THIS.

>> YES, YOU ARE.

>> NO, I'M NOT.

THE ISSUE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT HAS TO DO -- >> I TELL YOU WHAT -- >> -- WITH THE BRADY RULE AND ALL THE -- I DON'T EXCEPT YOUR ASSUMPTION.

>> I CAN BE ON A 12-PERSON JURY, VOTE SOMEONE GUILTY, AND A JUDGE CAN SAY YOU GOT IT WRONG.

>> IN THE INTERESTS OF TIME, LET'S MOVE TO SARAH ON CHAMBERS ROAD, THE POST-DISPATCH HAD A PIECE THIS WEEK SHOWING IN A RECENT FIVE-YEAR PERIOD, 2017 TO 2021, THE DEATHS THERE WERE QUADRUPLE OF THE PREVIOUS FIVE-YEAR PERIOD, INCLUDING TEN PEDESTRIANS.

THE TRAFFIC IS CRAZY THERE.

A LOT OF THIS OCCURRED AFTER 2015.

WAS THERE SOME SORT OF MICHAEL BROWN EFFECT WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT WASN'T PULLING PEOPLE OVER?

>> I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE THERE WAS, BUT THE BIGGER PROBLEM IN ST. LOUIS IS OUR INFRASTRUCTURE IS BUILT FOR A CITY THAT IS MUCH BIGGER THAN WHAT WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

I READ UP ON THIS FROM THE EXPERTS AND THEY SAID IF A ROAD LOOKS LIKE A HIGHWAY TO PEOPLE.

IF THERE'S NO ONE ON IT AND THERE'S SIX LANES, YOU GET THE VISUAL CUES THAT YOU CAN GO 80 MILES AN HOUR AND NO AMOUNT OF ENFORCEMENT IS GOING TO FULLY SOLVE THAT.

WHAT YOU NEED IS TO CHANGE THE INFRASTRUCTURE SO THERE'S CURB CUTS AND THINGS THAT SLOW PEOPLE DOWN AND SUGGEST THIS IS A ROAD WHERE YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION.

>> LET ME DISAGREE RESPECTFULLY, SARAH.

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THE MUNICIPALITIES IN NORTH COUNTY ARE FORBIDDEN TO COLLECT MORE THAN THIS AMOUNT IN TRAFFIC COSTS AND ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PUTTING -- STOPPING PEOPLE AND FINDING OUT THERE'S A WARRANT, AND THIS WAS ONE OF THE FERGUSON AFTER-EFFECTS AND WELL THOUGHT-OUT, I THOUGHT, AT THE TIME.

ALTHOUGH NOW IF THE POLICE CAN'T STOP PEOPLE FOR SPEEDING, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SPEED.

AND THE IDEA THAT WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS NARROW THE ROADS OR PUT CUTS IN THE ROADS, I THINK IF WE HAD LAW ENFORCEMENT WHERE IF IT SAYS 40 MILES AN HOUR, SOMEBODY GOES 60, THEY GET A TICKET, THAT WOULD BE A START.

>> YOUR HOMETOWN OF CHICAGO, ONCE YOU GET OUT OF THE DOWNTOWN AREA, THEY GOT BIG BUMPS IN THE RADIO EVERYWHERE.

THEY'RE JUST NOT GOING TO HAVE IT.

YOU COULD DO THAT ON CHAMBERS ROAD AND I THINK IT'S A REACH TO SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING RUN OVER BY CARS BECAUSE OF THE FERGUSON EFFECT AND BECAUSE POLICE DON'T STOP THEM.

>> ALL I GOT TO SAY -- >> IT'S IN THE PAPER, THE POLICE WERE SAYING, WE CAN'T STOP -- WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE DOING TRAFFIC STOPS.

>> I THINK I WOULD SAY THAT, TOO, IF SOMEBODY CAME TO ME ANDED IS IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT PEOPLE GET RAN OVER.

WELL, I CAN'T STOP THEM.

>> MY HANDS ARE TIED.

>> I DON'T RECALL THE FERGUSON REPORT SAYING YOU CANNOT STOP PEOPLE.

>> IS THERE NOT A LAW -- >> SENATE BILL 5.

>> IT DOESN'T SAY YOU CAN'T STOP THEM.

IT SAYS YOU CAN'T EXCESS FINE THEM.

>> IF YOU CAN'T FINE THEM, SARAH, WHAT'S THE POINT?

>> YOU CAN STILL STOP THEM AND CHARGE THEM WITH A CRIME.

>> WHAT HAPPENS IS ONCE A YEAR, THERE'S THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S REPORT THAT SHOWS THE RACE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PULLED OVER AND CITIES GET DINGED IF CERTAIN PERCENTAGE -- >> BUT NOBODY THINKS ABOUT THAT.

THAT REPORT COMES OUT EVERY YEAR AND NOBODY -- >> CITIES DON'T WANT THAT.

RIGHT NOW, YOU GOT TO ADMIT, MORE PEOPLE THAN EVER BEFORE ARE DRIVING NOT ONLY WITH EXPIRED TAGS, WITH NO LICENSES AT ALL.

>> AND PEOPLE ARE SPEEDING ON 44 LIKE -- >> BUT THEY'RE NOT GETTING RUN OVER.

>> THE FERGUSON REPORT IS NOT -- IT'S ABOUT USING THESE -- THE POLICE AS A REVENUE GENERATOR AND THEY CAN'T DO THAT, BUT YOU CAN STILL TOLL PEOPLE FOR SPEEDING.

YOU CAN'T MONETIZE IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU STOP THEM FOR SPEEDING?

>> YOU CHARGE THEM WITH A CRIME AND MAKE THEM GO TO COURT.

>> BUT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING APPARENTLY.

ALL RIGHT, THAT'S IT FOR THE FIRST SEGMENT OF OUR PROGRAM.

WE DO WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT PEOPLE HAD TO SAY ABOUT LAST WEEK'S SHOW.

LET'S GO TO THE NAIL BAG.

MY FAMILY WAS RECENTLY IN TOWN FOR NEW YORK, ATERNED TO GET TICKETS -- ATTEMPTED TO GET TICKETS FOR THE ARCH BY 9:00 A.M., IT WAS SOLD OUT.

THIS IS THE SECOND TIME WE EXPERIENCED THIS, SO I'M SURPRISED THAT PEOPLE AREN'T RIDING IT.

WENT TO ARCH YESTERDAY, WANTED TO BRING A FRIEND IN TOWN FOR BUSINESS, GOT THERE AT 5:15, IT WAS SOLD OUT.

THAT FROM PAMELA STEPHENS.

AND WE HEARD FROM OUR NEXT WRITER.

OH, BARBARA BOWER.

I'M WRITING TO THANK YOU FOR HAVING THE VACCINATION TOPIC WITH DR. KINCH.

IT WAS MOST INFORMATIVE.

MY DAUGHTER IS WRITING A PERSUASIVE SPEECH FOR HER HIGH SCHOOL PUBLIC SPEAKING CLASS AND SHE CHOSE THE TOPIC OF VACCINATIONS, WHY THEY'RE IMPORTANT.

THANK YOU, BARBARA.

YOU CAN WRITE US CARE OF KETC, 3655 OLIVE STREET, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63108.

WE LOVE THOSE EMAILS AND THOSE TWEETS.

USE THAT #DONNYBROOKSTL, AND LISTEN TO US WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS.

APPLE, SPOTIFY, TUNE-IN AND GOOGLE PLAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS TO SARAH FENSKE FOR SITTING IN FOR WENDY WIESE, BUT DON'T TOUCH THAT DIALS ABOUT IN A MOMENT, TWO LOCAL ATTORNEYS BEVIS SCHOCK AND NINA McDONNELL WILL TALK ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT DRAFT THAT WAS LEAKED THIS WEEK CONCERNING ROE V. WADE.

ALVIN AND RAY WILL BE HEADING UP THAT DISCUSSION NEXT.