>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THE SECOND EDITION, WE CALL THIS NEXT UP.

WE USUALLY TALK TO COMMUNITY LEADERS, WE'RE DOING THAT THIS TIME AROUND BUT WE'RE PICKING ONE SUBJECT AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SOMEONE FIND OUT THAT HE OR SHE IS A DESCENDANT OF A SLAVE OWNER.

THAT'S THE COVER STORY IN THIS WEEK'S RIVER FRONT TIMES, WE'LL BE DISCUSSING THAT THIS HALF-HOUR ALONG WITH DICK WISE A LONG-TIME JOURNALIST, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, DICK, WHO WROTE THE COVER STORY.

WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY ELKIN KISNER.

AND THANK YOU BENEFIT LIPS -- BEN PHILLIPS.

WELCOME TO NEXT UP.

>> THANK YOU.

>> DICK, WHY DON'T YOU GIVE OUR VIEWERS AN OVERVIEW OF THIS STORY THAT TAKES A LOOK AT MR. KISSNER AND HIS KIN AND THE SECRET THIS THEY DISCOVERED.

>> YES, CHARLIE, THANKS FOR GIVING ME THE CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT THIS STORY.

I AM A FOUNDER, COFOUNDER OF A RACIAL EQUITY STORY TELLING PROJECT.

WE'VE BEEN TELLING THE STORIES OF ST. LOUIS FAMILIES ACROSS GENERATIONS.

AND MOST OF THE TIME WE FOCUS ON AFRICAN-AMERICAN FAMILIES AND THE CHALLENGES THAT THEY FACED IN A DIFFICULT RACIAL ENVIRONMENT.

BUT I CAME UPON THE KISSNER FAMILY THROUGH FRIENDS, AND I WAS JUST REALLY FASCINATED WITH WHAT THEY WERE GOING THROUGH.

THEY HAD LEARNED THAT, A LONG TIME AGO, THEY LEARNED THAT THEY WERE DESCENDANTS OF SOME PROMINENT AND LIONIZED ST. LOUISANS, ONE WAS MOSES LINTON, THE FOUNDER OF THE JESUIT SOCIETY AND WAS VERY PROMINENT IN ST. LOUIS AT THE TIME OF THE CHOLERA EPIDEMIC AND SAVED MANY LIVES.

AND ON ELKIN'S SIDE OF THE FAMILY ON HIS MATERNAL SIDE HE IS ALSO A DESCENDANT OF JOHN O'BRIEN WHO WAS ALSO A PHYSICIAN AND ALSO PROMINENT, ABOUT THE SAME TIME IN POLITICAL CIRCLES AND EDUCATIONAL CIRCLES, THERE'S A SCHOOL ON THE NORTH SIDE NAMED FOR HIM.

WHAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW UNTIL RECENTLY IS THAT BOTH THOSE MEN WERE SLAVE HOLDERS.

WHEN THEY LEARNED THIS, THEY WERE DISMAYED.

AND THAT'S WHERE THE STORY SORT OF TAKES OFF FROM THERE.

AND I WAS FASCINATED TO FIND OUT WHAT WERE THEY GOING TO DO WITH THIS KNOWLEDGE.

>> WHICH I GUESS BRINGS US TO YOU, MR. KISSNER.

HOW DID YOU FINE OUT THAT YOUR RELATIVES, MOSES LINTON AND JOHN O'BRIEN WERE SLAVE HOLDERS?

>> IT WAS ABOUT 2017, I HAVE A COUSIN WHO KISSNER HENDERSON NOW, WHO KIND OF HAS AS THE ARTICLE DESCRIBES DID A MAGNIFICENT JOB OF LAYING OUT THE EVOLUTION, BUT THE SHORT VERSION IS BOO JUST BECAME SUSPICIOUS, STARTED INVESTIGATING, HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS A PART-TIME JEANOLOGIST AT THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY LIBRARY, WHICH HAS A VERY DEEP RESOURCE, SET OF RESOURCES IN GENEALOGY.

THIS WOMAN WAS ABLE TO PULL TOGETHER SOME CENSUS RECORDS THAT SHOWED THAT MOSES LINTON OWNED SEVEN SLAIFERS.

AND WE CONVENE -- SLAVES.

WE CONVENED A FAMILY MEETING BECAUSE WE HAD GROWN UP WITH NO MENTION OF ANY NEGATIVE HISTORY OF ANY SORT.

HE WAS A REMARKABLE MAN.

THE SHORT HAND DESCRIPTION IS I THINK OF HIM AS KIND OF A MINOR LEAGUE MAYBE ROOKIE LEAGUE VERSION OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, YOU KNOW.

SO OVER TIME MY BROTHER AND I, IN PARTICULAR STARTED DIGGING, JUST AS AMATEUR, HE'S A JOURNALIST, I'M A LAWYER, WE'VE BOTH DONE VARIOUS TYPES OF RESEARCH OVER OUR CAREERS, AND IT WAS REALLY ROCKY A COUPLE YEARS AGO, FOUND OUT ABOUT JOHN O'BRIEN ON MY MOTHER'S SIDE.

HE ESCAPED HISTORY.

HE USED TO BEAT THE HECK OUT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD REPORT ABOUT HIM.

AND HE WAS A VERY PROMINENT ANTI-ABOLITIONIST WHO CAME AWAY WITH GREAT WEALTH AND NOBODY KNOWS WHERE IT WENT.

HE WAS A VERY POWERFUL MAN AND LITERALLY HISTORIANS HAVE JUST LEARNED ABOUT HIM RECENTLY.

>> SO THERE'S BEEN AN UNUSUAL EVOLUTION FOR US.

THAT'S WHERE WE ARE.

WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE NOT COMPLICIT IN CONCEALING INFORMATION ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE KIND OF THIS MINOR LEAGUE THOMAS JEFFERSONIAN DID YOU ALITY.

IT'S NEVER BEEN REVEALED PUBLICLY AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL.

DO YOU MIND IF I -- I'M SORRY.

I HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE OF STARTING MY CAREER AS A LAWYER IN THE CITY COUNSELOR'S OFFICE.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU START OFF AS I DID GOING THROUGH A TONY HIGH SCHOOL LIKE BURROWS AND GOING TO A SEMI KIND OF POTTED IVY LEAGUE COLLEGE, YOU GO IN THE CITY COUNSELOR'S OFFICE AND YOU RUB ELBOWS WITH ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE.

BEN AND I BECAME ACQUAINTED.

I HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE OF REPRESENTING BEN AND SOME SIMILARLY, IN MY OPINION, VICTIMIZED INDIVIDUALS IN TWO FAIRLY PROMINENT LAWSUITS.

I DON'T KNOW, BEN AND I, I THINK, KIND OF EVOLVED FROM CLIENT LAWYER TO FRIENDS.

SO WHEN THIS KNOWLEDGE EVOLVED, ON MY FAMILY'S PART, I REACHED OUT TO A COUPLE OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN FRIENDS TO TRY TO GET A REACTION FROM THEM AND A FEELING AS TO HOW THEY FELT ABOUT ME AND OTHERS IN MY FAMILY KNOWING ABOUT THIS, AND HELP IN WHAT KIND OF EFFORT WE SHOULD MAKE BASED ON THE FACT THAT WE NOW HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE, AND -- >> BEN PHILLIPS IS HELPING FACILITATE THESE DISCUSSIONS WITHIN YOUR FAMILY, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YES.

HE'S DEEPLY INVOLVED WITH MULTIPLE MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY.

>> AND I HAPPEN TO KNOW ONE OF THEM, RACHEL WAS AN INTERN AT KMOX BACK IN THE DAY AND SHE'S INCLUDED IN THIS STORY.

BUT THERE ARE SOME FAMILIAR NAMES THAT PEOPLE WILL FIND.

SO, BEN, YOU SIT DOWN WITH THE KISSNERS AND HENDERSONS AND OTHERS AND YOU KIND OF GO OVER WHAT THEY'RE THINKING, BECAUSE THERE'S SOME SHOCK AND THERE'S ALSO SOME SHAME AS IT TURNS OUT ATTACHED TO THIS REVELATION.

>> DEFINITELY, IT WAS BOTH.

WE SAT DOWN, I THINK IT WAS NEAR THANKSGIVING ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO AT BOO'S HOUSE, HENDERSON NOW.

AND THERE ARE ABOUT SEVEN OF THE RELATIVES THERE, SEVEN OR EIGHT.

WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT, WE KNOW THIS INFORMATION, WHAT SHOULD WE DO WITH IT.

THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, AND WE SAID, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COME CLEAN AND LET PEOPLE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

CAN'T HOLD ANYTHING BACK.

IF YOU HOLD ANYTHING BACK, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DISCREDIT YOU.

SO YOU HAVE TO GET OUT THERE AND PUT YOUR FAMILY OUT THERE, AND IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH.

AND I TALKED WITH ESPECIALLY ELKIN AND HIS BROTHER AND SAID THIS IS GOING TO BE THE TOUGHEST THING YOU'VE EVER DONE IN YOUR LIFE, TO SAY YOUR GREAT GRANDFATHER WAS A SLAVE OWNER.

AND NOT GET THE LASHING FROM THE PUBLIC THAT YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO GET.

SO I TOLD HIM, YOU HAVE TO BE STRONG TO DO THIS.

AND THEY LISTENED TO US.

WITH ME AND TWO OTHER AFRICAN-AMERICANS AT THE TABLE AT THE TIME, A YOUNG LADY, CHELSEA CARTER, AND A YOUNG MAN, DAMIAN SMITH WHO LIVES IN LOS ANGELES, BUT HE WAS BORN IN ST. LOUIS.

AND WE TALKED SEVERAL TIMES AND THERE WERE SOME TOUGH DISCUSSIONS, THAT WE WERE NOT PART OF, WHEN THEY GET TO GO TO A BARBECUE OR SOMETHING AND SOMETHING CAME UP.

I HEARD ABOUT THEM BUT I WAS NOT PRESENT AT SOME OF THEM, HAD TO BE SOME REAL TOUGH, YOU KNOW, ATTITUDES GOING.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT IN YOUR PIECE, WHICH WAS EXCELLENT, I THINK YOU USED THE PHRASE VAST REREMEMBERRING.

HOW VAST IS IT AND HOW VAST SHOULD IT BE ON THIS TOPIC?

>> THIS IS GOING ON ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND IS GOING ON WITHIN FAMILIES AND IT'S GOING ON WITHIN INSTITUTIONS.

ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY IS TAKING A, MORE OF A INTENSIVE LOOK AT ITS PAST.

THE ARCHDIOCESE IS DOING THIS AS WELL.

A LOT OF THIS ALSO GREW UP AROUND GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY WHERE ROCKY IS NOW LIVING, IN TERMS OF THE JESUITS AND SLAVES.

AND A LOT OF FAMILIES ARE, AS THE KISSNERS HAVE DISCOVERED, HAVE LOOKED INTO THIS.

SOME OF THEM DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

THEY SAY LET'S JUST MOVE ON OR NOT MENTION IT.

BUT OTHERS HAVE LOOKED INTO THIS.

THERE'S A FAMILY I BELIEVE IN GEORGIA THAT HAVE DONE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THING THAT THE KISSNERS HAVE DONE AND HAVE TRIED TO KOOB FIND OUT WHO ARE THE DESCENDANTS THAT THEIR ANCESTORS HAVE AND WHAT CAN THEY DO FOR THEM, CAN THEY HELP THEM IN SOME WAY.

AND IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE'S ALSO, AS YOU KNOW, A PUSHBACK AROUND THIS WHOLE IDEA OF WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY REPARATIONS.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS WHO ARE SAYING, WELL, LET'S NOT GET INTO THIS, IT'S DIVISIVE, AND LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

THEN THEY BRING IN THE CRITICAL RATION THEORY SORTS OF THINGS, WHICH IS SORT OF A RED HERRING, PARTICULARLY IN REGARD TO THIS CONVERSATION.

SO IT'S VAST, IT'S GOING ON IN A LOT OF PLACES, AND THE THING I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING IN TERMS OF THE WAY THE KISSNERS ARE GOING ABOUT IT IS THEY ARE TRYING NOT ONLY TO SHED LIGHT ON WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THEIR FAMILY BUT ALSO TAKING STEPS THAT ARE NOT DIVISIVE, BRINGING IN COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE, AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND CONSERVATIVE LEANING WHITES WHO ARE REALLY JUST INTERESTED, WELL, WHAT'S THE TRUTH AND WHAT CAN WE DO GOING FORWARD.

SO, FOR INSTANCE, JUDGE DAVID MASON IS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN, BUT HE WAS APPOINTED BY A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR.

SO HE HAS THE RESPECT OF CONSERVATIVES, AND HE'S SUPPORTING THIS EFFORT.

SO THEY'RE GOING ABOUT IT IN A VERY SMART WAY IN TRYING TO KEEP IT, I DON'T KNOW, A LITTLE ABOVE AND BEYOND POLITICS.

TALKING ABOUT FAMILIES AND COMMUNITY.

>> YOU SHOULD KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT IT TOWARD THE END OF OUR SHOW EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM, AND I THINK I BROUGHT UP THE RED HERRING OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

BUT I THINK THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, I THINK A PANEL, I KNOW THE PANEL GENERALLY FEELS THAT THE SPIRIT OF REPARATIONS ARE THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

THE QUESTION IS THE PRACTICALITY OF IT.

AND IN THE INDICATION OF SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THEIR OWN FAMILY HERITAGE, I'M CURIOUS WHAT KIND OF, TO THE EXTENT YOU'VE BEEN PUBLIC, AND I CONGRATULATE YOU FOR THAT, WHAT KIND OF RESPONSE HAVE YOU GOT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S BEEN ABOUT A 24-HOUR PUBLIC AWARENESS SINCE THE ARTICLE HAS COME IT, IT'S EXTREMELY LIMITED.

BUT IT'S BEEN DIVIDED.

SOME OF IT HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF IT HAS BEEN PRETTY MUCH OF AN ATTACK.

SOME OF IT HAS BEEN VERY SUPPORTIVE.

>> AN ATTACK?

>> ONE OF THE ATTACK EMAILS CAME FROM SOMEBODY WHO IS A PROMINENT ATTORNEY, CONSERVATIVE, WHO WE'VE KNOWN FOR A LONG TIME AND HE JUST STRONGLY DISAGREES WITH EXPLORING THIS AREA.

ANOTHER ONE WAS A GUIDE KNOWN FROM CITY HALL WHO IS NOW I THINK, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE'S A LOBBYIST, HE'S SOME SORT OF CONSULTANT.

AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN GUY WHO SAID THAT'S GREAT AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A BEER NEXT TUESDAY AND TALK MORE.

MY VIEW OF THIS IS, AND IT'S JUST MY PERSONAL VIEW, IS THAT I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON POLICY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NEXT STEP SHOULD BE.

I DO KNOW THAT KEEPING CONCEALED FROM THE PUBLIC INFORMATION ABOUT PEOPLE IN THEIR PAST IS FLAT OUT WRONG.

NONE OF US SHOULD BE COMPLICIT IN IT.

WOULD THOSE CRITICS WHO THINK THAT WE HAVE DONE THUS FAR WAS TO JUST ASK FOR MORE INFORMATION TO BE GIVEN ABOUT OUR ANCESTORS, AND THE PAST AND ATTRIBUTES THEY HAD THAT WE THINK EVERYBODY WOULD FIND BEYOND UNSAVORY, THAT'S ALL WE'VE ASKED FOR.

AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WITH JUDGE MASON'S INITIATIVE WITH THE LAW LIBRARY, WHICH IS AN AMAZING FACILITY WHICH IS UNDERUTILIZED, PLACES LIKE THAT WHERE YOU CAN CONDUCT LEARNING, YOU KNOW, THERE IS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOOD LESS THAN A MILE AWAY FROM WHERE MY OFFICE IS NOW ON NORTH BROADWAY, AND IT IS THE INTERSECTION OF GANO STREET AND LEE AVENUE.

GANO STREET NAMED AFTER MY ANCESTOR WHO IS A PROMINENT ANTI-ABOLITION IS.

AND LEE IS NAMED AFTER A PARTICULAR GENERAL.

A UTILITY WORKER CAME THROUGH MY OFFICE TO DO AN INSPECTION A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, AND I ASKED HIM WHERE HE LIVED, WE WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION.

HE LIVES IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.

RIGHT AT THAT INTERSECTION.

IT'S 100% AFRICAN-AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOOD.

AND THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER AS TO WHAT THOSE STREET NAMES ARE AND WHAT THEY MEAN.

NOBODY HAS EVER INFORMED THEM.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT STREET NAME CHANGES, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE THE COMMUNITY SHOULD BE ABLE TO COME TOGETHER AND SAY, WELL, WE SHOULD AT LEAST EDUCATE THE PUBLIC AS TO WHY THESE PLACES ARE NAMED WHAT THEY ARE AND IF THERE IS A HISTORY TO THEM THAT IS TAINTED TO MAKE THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE, THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT THAT WOULD MAKE THE ST. LOUIS COMMUNITY DISTINGUISHED AMONG ALL COMMUNITIES IN THE NATION IN GETTING AHEAD OF THAT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW PEOPLE CAN OPPOSE PROVIDING INFORMATION.

>> YOU MIGHT WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE LAW LIBRARY WOULD DO -- >> LET'S GET INTO THAT FOR A MOMENT BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.

BUT IF YOU DON MIND ME JUMPING IN, YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOUR GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER, OF COURSE, YOU'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS.

WHAT HE DID HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE WHATSOEVER, DOES IT?

>> YES, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY ONE CAN'T MAKE ONE'S ANCESTOR OR INFLUENCE WHAT THE ANCESTOR DID, THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO THAT'S AN AREA THAT I HAVE NOT YET FOCUSED ON.

I THINK IT'S A VERY INTERESTING KIND OF FACTUAL POLICY BASED DISCUSSION THAT NEEDS TO BE HAD.

ONE, NEITHER MY BROTHER NOR I NOR ANY OF MY RELATIVES IN THE STATE ARE WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER TO BE REAL WEALTHY.

BUT COMPARED TO PEOPLE WHO GREW UP LIKE BEN DID IN MILL CREEK AND THEN -- I GOT TO GO TO A COUNTY HIGH SCHOOL GOT TO GO TO A POTTED IVY LEAGUE COLLEGE, I GOT TO BECOME A LAWYER.

NOW, IS THAT ATTRIBUTABLE TO CASCADING WEALTH OVER GENERATIONS THAT ENABLED ME TO DO THOSE THINGS?

PROGRAMS.

AND I THINK YOU LOOK NOW, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF POLICY, THE ELECTORATE IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS VOTED IN TO JONES, SHE RAN ON A CAMPAIGN OF REPARATIONS AND NOW THERE'S A VOLUNTARY REPARATION PROGRAMS THAT'S ABOUT TO GO INTO LAW.

I THINK THAT'S FOR THEM TO DECIDE AND EDUCATE US.

BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COULD BE DONE THAT ENABLES US TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF JUST GETTING INFORMATION OUT THERE IN A WAY THAT BRINGS THE COMMUNITY TOGETHER.

>> AND YOU ARE ESTABLISHING SOME SCHOLARSHIPS AS WELL AS AN INFORMATIONAL LIBRARY IN THE CIVIL COURTS BUILDING WHICH WILL HELP PEOPLE EXPLORE THESE ISSUES.

>> YES.

WHAT THEY'RE DOING ON THE FRONT BURNER IS SEEKING TO HAVE A LAW LIBRARY BE KIND OF A BASE OF INFORMATION WHERE PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE, JEANOLOGISTS, FAMILIES COULD GO TO RESEARCH THE PAST AND BRING TO LIGHT WHATEVER THEY WANT ABOUT SLAVE HOLDING IN ST. LOUIS.

PEOPLE HAVE DISCUSSED IN GENERAL THE IDEA OF CREATING SCHOLARSHIPS FOR THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAVE HOLDERS, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS KIND OF AN IDEA THAT HAS BEEN DONE AND, YOU KNOW, YOUR FAMILY COULD PUT SOME MONEY IN AND THEN INVITE OTHER PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE.

SO IT ISN'T LIKE ONE FAMILY NEEDS TO BEAR THE BURDEN OF SCHOLARSHIPS FOR ALL.

NOW, IF A PARTICULAR FAMILY WERE BILLIONAIRES MAYBE THEY COULD DO THAT, BUT THAT'S TYPICALLY NOT DONE.

>> I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU, BEN, AND THAT IS, I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO SEE WE'RE DISCONNECTED COMPLETELY.

I MEAN WE ARE A PRODUCT OF GENERATIONS, AND AS I SAY I THINK IT TERRIFIC THAT YOU'RE WILLING TO AT LEAST BE PUBLIC ABOUT IT AND TALK ABOUT IT CANDIDLY.

HOW DO YOU VIEW THAT, I MEAN DO YOU THINK THAT I CERTAINLY SOUNDS LIKE SOME OF THE NEGATIVES YOU'RE GETTING ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE UPSET WITH YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

>> I REALLY HOPE THEY JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND.

>> BUT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, HOW CONNECTED SHOULD WE FEEL?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THE PEOPLE CONTACTING ELKIN OR SOMEONE LIKE ELKIN IN HIS POSITION ABOUT DOING SOME THINGS TO OPEN UP THE EDUCATION AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF SLAVERY, THEY DON'T LOOK LIKE ME, FIRST OFF.

SO PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WEALTH IN IN COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON THE BACKS OF SLAVES.

SLAVE OWNERS, YOU KNOW.

TO THIS DAY THE PRISON SYSTEM IS A FORM OF SLAVERY AND THEY USE IT TO PROMOTE AND GET WEALTH FOR PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE PRIVATE PRISONS.

SO MY ATTITUDE IS, IF ELKIN AND HIS FAMILY CAN DO ANYTHING, EDUCATE, WHATEVER, I THINK IT'S A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION BECAUSE I HAVE NOT SEEN A LOT OF THAT IN THIS COUNTRY, DEFINITELY NOT IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

SO I AGREE, WITH WHAT THEY WANT TO DO OR HOW THEY'RE GOING TO DO, THEY JUST HAVEN'T WORKED OUT THE PARTICULARS.

>> ELKIN, HOW GIFT IS IT FOR YOU TO -- DIFFICULT IS IT FOR YOU TO COME OUT AND DISCUSS YOUR FAMILY'S HISTORY?

>> I THINK PART OF IT, AS A LAWYER YOU HAVE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND SWING.

YOU'RE GOING TO STRIKE OUT SOMETIMES, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WIN EVERY CASE.

IT REALLY, MY BROTHER AND I ARE QUITE CLOSE, AND IT WAS A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, REALLY IN CONSULTATION WITH BEN THAT WE JUST DECIDED, YOU KNOW, THIS INFORMATION IS NOT GETTING OUT.

WE CAN'T SIT ON IT AND WE'RE GOING TO DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE SURE IT GETS OUT, AND AT THAT POINT IN TIME IT JUST BECAME A MATTER OF RESOLVE, AND ONCE YOU'VE MADE A RESOLUTION THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET UP AND DO SOMETHING, THEN THE UNCERTAINTY IS BEHIND YOU, WHETHER YOU LOSE OR WIN, THAT'S FINE.

BUT YOU'VE TRIED.

SO IT'S NOT THAT HARD.

I LOOK FORWARD TO THE THINGS THAT REALLY INTRIGUE ME ABOUT TRYING TO DO PROJECTS THAT WOULD BRING THE COMMUNITY TOGETHER.

I WANT TO EMPHASIZE, I DON'T SPEAK FOR THE LAW LIBRARY.

I'M EXCITED ABOUT THE PROSPECTS THAT JUDGE MASON HAS BROUGHT TO US IN TERMS OF THE FREEDOM SUIT PROJECT, JOINING WITH THE LAW LIBRARY, TO BASICALLY REVITALIZE A BEAUTIFUL FACILITY.

I DON'T KNOW WHO HAS BEEN IN, AND CAUSE IT TO HAVE GREATER VITALITY AND TO PERHAPS BRIDGE SOME OF THIS GULF BY BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

>> DAVID MASON IS A GREAT GUY, I DON'T THINK TO HURT HIS REPUTATION BY SAYING SO, I THINK HE'LL FORGIVE ME, BUT IF I COULD SPEAK FOR CAUCASIANS, NONE OF US, THERE'S NO WAY ANY WHITE PERSON CAN BE REALLY JUDGMENTAL AND SAY, WELL, BECAUSE IT'S, IN MISSOURI IN PARTICULAR AND TO SOME EXTENT IN ST. LOUIS IT'S A COIN TOSS.

WE ALL HAVE ANCESTORS.

I FOUND MINE, I WROTE ABOUT THIS, MY GREAT GRANDFATHER, I THINK HIS GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER TURNED OUT TO BE THE A CIVIL WAR HERO.

I WAS SO RELIEVED TO FIND OUT HE WAS ON THE UNION SIDE, BUT THERE WASN'T ANY PREDICTING THAT.

IT WORKED OUT FINE.

I THOUGHT I HAD COME FROM A LONG LINE OF COWARDS, BUT TURNS OUT HE WAS A PRETTY GOOD GUY, AND A BAD WRITER.

BUT HIS STUFF IS IN THE SMITHSONIAN.

BUT MY POINT IS NOBODY REALLY HAS ANY, YOU KNOW, POSITION TO JUDGE.

THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE WHO WROTE THE WORST DECISION IN HISTORY, WE ALL TALK ABOUT, DREAD SCOTT, WE HAVE A COUNTY NAME FOR THIS GUY, SO WE HAVE A LOT OF THIS.

BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY, WHAT DO YOU SEE, ANY OF YOU, AS KIND OF THE NEXT STEPS THAT WOULD BE PRACTICAL THAT RECOGNIZE EVERYBODY'S SENSITIVITY?

>> I THINK YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON A COUPLE THINGS.

ONE IS THAT THERE ARE INDIVIDUAL FAMILY MEMBERS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT WE WERE ALL BENEFICIARIES OF SYSTEMS THAT WERE CREATED ON THE BACKS OF SLAVES AND LARGELY BY WHITE PEOPLE, AND WE MAY NOT BE GUILTY PERSONALLY, BUT WE SHOULD ALL BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE SYSTEMS.

AND OUR JOB AS JOURNALISTS, I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS AND YOU DO AS WELL, CHARLIE, IS TO SHED LIGHT ON THE OTHERS AND THEN LEAVE IT TO THE INTELLIGENCE AND THE GOOD WILL OF PEOPLE TO BEGIN TO FIGURE IT OUT.

IF YOU, IF YOU'RE NOT DEALING WITH A SET OF FACTS TO HELP YOU WITH THAT, THEN YOU'RE LOST.

AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK THAT ELKIN IS, AND HIS FAMILY, HAVE GONE ABOUT THIS IN A VERY APPROPRIATE, METHODICAL, THOUGHTFUL WAY.

LET'S SHED LIGHT ON THIS AND THEN LEAVE TO IT THE COMMUNITY TO FIGURE IT OUT.

>> IT WOULD BE GREAT IF THERE WERE OTHER FAMILIES DOING THE SAME THING.

THERE ARE FAMILIES THAT ARE ACTIVELY TRYING TO HIDE THIS PAST.

AND THEY KNOW THAT THEY AT LEAST SHOULD BRING TO BEAR THAT THEIR FAMILY PARTICIPATED IN SLAVERY.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE THAT'S, IT'S ONE THING TO SAY YOU'RE DISCONNECTED.

BUT TO DO THAT, THAT'S WHERE YOU NEED JOURNALISTS TO FEEL FREE TO SAY, HEY, PARTICULARLY TO THE EXTENT IT'S PUBLICLY AVAILABLE INFORMATION.

>> UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE ENJOYING INCREASING POPULARITY, AND EVERYBODY IS BELIEVING WHAT WE WRITE.

>> TO PICK UP ON NEXT STEPS, YOU MENTIONED HANEY COUNTY, I MENTIONED THE INTERSECTION OF LEE AND GANO.

I WOULD CHALLENGE YOU TO LOOK AT WHAT WE THINK WE CAN PRODUCE AS AN INTERACTIVE MAP OF ALL EXAMPLES LIKE THAT ACROSS THE COMMUNITY.

THINK ABOUT THE PRACTICAL REALITY, AND I THINK THIS CAN BE PROVEN, THAT PRACTICALLY EVERY BRICK STRUCTURE THAT WE SEE TODAY IN THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN AREA, CONSTRUCTED BETWEEN 1800 AND 1865, THE TIME OF EMANCIPATION, WAS BUILT USING ENSLAVED PEOPLE LABOR.

IF YOU WERE TO BUILD AN INTERACTIVE MAP WITH THE HANEY COUNTY, THE GANO AND LEE INTERSECTIONS, ALL OF THE BRICK BUILDINGS AND YOU WOULD JUST THEN VISUALIZE JUST HOW PERVASIVE THIS FABRIC IS, HOW TIGHTLY WOVEN IT IS, AND THINK ABOUT THE NAMING OF THESE PLACES AFTER MEN AND WOMEN, THEY'RE PROBABLY ALL MEN ACTUALLY, WHO ENSLAVED PEOPLE, AND THE BUILDINGS THAT STILL STAND THAT WERE CONSTRUCTED UTILIZING, I THINK IT WOULD CHALLENGE PEOPLE.

>> OKAY, WE HAVE TO CUT YOU OFF THERE BECAUSE TIME IS LIMITED, IN FACT WE'RE OUT OF IT.

SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.