>> HEY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR NEXT UP.

WE HAVE A GREAT GUEST, VERY TIMELY.

CONGRESSMAN JOHN SHIMKUS OF ILLINOIS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A LOT OF THOUGHTS ON WHAT'S GOING ON IN UKRAINE AND WE'LL DELVE RIGHT INTO IT.

LET ME OPEN UP WITH, IF YOU CAN JUST TELL US YOUR FEELINGS RIGHT NOW AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND MAYBE THE NEXT 24 TO 48 HOURS.

>> WELL, I'M HEARTBROKEN LIKE EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM, SELF-DETERMINATION OF A POPULATION.

THE LAST TIME I WAS -- NOT THE LAST TIME, BUT I WAS THERE FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION OF WALENSKY, OBSERVED THOSE ELECTIONS.

THESE PEOPLE WANT FREEDOM AND THEIR INDEPENDENCE AND PUTIN HAS TAKEN IT AWAY FROM THEM.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE CONFLICT AREA ON THE MAP, IT GETS UPDATED ALL THE TIME, I THINK PUTIN'S ALL IN, ALL THE WAY TO KYIV AND ALL THE WAY TO THE BORDER TO REINSTALL A GOVERNMENT MORE SUITED TO HIS LIKING AND THAT'S UNFORTUNATE FOR THE WORLD ORDER.

>> CONGRESSMAN, YOU SERVED 24 YEARS IN CONGRESS AND YOU WERE KNOWN FOR BEING ABLE TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE.

THERE'S AN OLD ADAGE THAT IT SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN, WHICH IS THAT POLITICS SHOULD STOP AT THE WATER'S EDGE AND THIS IS PROBABLY AS CLOSE TO -- AS SERIOUS AN EVENT SINCE WORLD WAR II IN EUROPE.

DO YOU SEE ANY HOPE OF GETTING BACK IN SOME FASHION, GIVEN THAT MOST PEOPLE ACROSS THE PARTY LINES, NOT ALL, VIEW VLADIMIR PUTIN AS A DANGEROUS, POSSIBLY DEMENTED DICTATOR?

CAN WE GET BACK THIN THERE AT ALL?

>> WELL, IF CONFLICT AND THE WORLD WE'RE LIVING IN RIGHT NOW DOESN'T GET PEOPLE TO WORK TOGETHER AND KIND OF PUT ASIDE KIND OF THE -- I'M KIND OF SICK AND TIRED OF THIS NITPICKING RIGHT NOW.

WE OUGHT TO BE BEHIND THE PRESIDENT WHO'S TRYING TO KEEP OUR ALLIES TOGETHER AND FORM A GRAND ALLIANCE AGAINST A TOTALITARIAN DICTATOR WHO'S WILLING TO KILL -- HE'S CLAIMING THEM TO BE HIS OWN PEOPLE AND HE'S WILLING TO KILL THEM.

SO THERE WILL BE MEMBERS THAT WILL RISE TO THE OCCASION, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?

THEY'RE NOT THE STORY LINE, RIGHT?

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET COVERED BECAUSE WHO WILL GET COVERED ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE FOMENTING THESE ATTACKS, WHICH I THINK IS UNTIMELY RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, AS FAR AS MILITARY RESPONSE, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S ECONOMIC AND THEY'VE GROWN STRONGER TODAY WITH THE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH, BUT AS FAR AS THE MILITARY IS CONCERNED, COULD WE BE DRAWN INTO THAT?

IS THERE JUST NO WAY WE WOULD ACTUALLY RISK AMERICAN LIVES IN THIS CONFLICT?

>> WELL, IF UKRAINE WAS A NATO ALLY, I DON'T THINK PUTIN WOULD EVER COME IN, BUT THEY'RE NOT.

THEY WERE WANTING TO GET THERE.

THERE'S NO WAY ANY OF THE NATO COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO GO IN IN THIS MOMENT.

BEFORE THE ATTACK, YOU KNOW, I WAS WONDERING IF ZALINSKY WOULD APPEAL TO BILATERAL RELATIONSHIPS.

I BELIEVE IN THE TRIP WIRE.

I SERVED IN WEST GERMANY AND I WAS BASICALLY A TRIP WIRE.

SHOULD THAT HAVE GONE OFF, WE WOULD HAVE SLOWED THEM DOWN A LITTLE BIT, BUT NOT VERY LONG.

BUT I THINK YOU CAN WATCH THEIR COMMENTS FROM NOT JUST PRESIDENT BIDEN, BUT ALL THE WORLD LEADERS, THEY ARE STRENGTHENING THE EASTERN BORDER OF THE NATO ALLIANCE.

THERE WILL NOT BE A MOVEMENT TO GO INTO UKRAINE.

NOW, IF PUTIN DECIDES TO CROSS THE LINE TO ANY ONE OF OUR NATO ALLIES, ARTICLE 5 OF THE TREATY IS AN ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL AND FOR ONE WANTS TO SEE THAT -- AND NO ONE WANTS TO SEE THAT.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.

HOW DO YOU CALIBRATE THAT, THOUGH?

IN OTHER WORDS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NUCLEAR SUPER POWERS, AND SO ANY -- INVOKING ARTICLE 5 AT NATO ON ONE HAND, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S NATO AND THERE WOULD BE A STAND-OFF.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR NUCLEAR WAR.

HOW CAN WE CALIBRATE?

BECAUSE AS YOU IDENTIFIED, IN THIS CLIMATE, BEING SO DIVIDED, WE NEED TO KEEP NATIONAL UNITY.

WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING -- WE DON'T WANT TO SPECULATE, BUT YOU SEE MY QUESTION.

IN OTHER WORDS, HOW DO WE CALIBRATE GOING FORWARD IF WE DID HAVE AN ENGAGED NATO TO STAND UP TO RUSSIA DIRECTLY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE CONSTITUTION LAYS OUT THE WHOLE DECLARATION OF WAR ISSUE, WHICH HASN'T BEEN USED FOR, GOSH, OVER 80 YEARS NOW, AND SO WE'VE ALWAYS HAD THIS DEBATE OF WHO CAN DEPLOY FORCES AND WHO CAN'T AND HOW LONG AND THE WAR POWERS ACT AND ALL THESE THINGS.

I WOULD JUST BOIL IT DOWN TO, WE HAVE A TREATY AND I'M A BIG BELIEVER AND THAT'S PART OF THE CONSTITUTION, A TREATY SIGNED BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, AFFIRMED BY THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, THAT'S IT.

YOU KNOW?

I THINK THE REAL DEBATE, RAY, IS WOULD THE NATO TROOPS, NATO COUNTRIES REALLY GO TO ALL-OUT WAR WITH RUSSIA FOR THESE COUNTRIES I KNOW VERY WELL AND I LOVE, THE BALTIC COUNTRIES, ESTONIA, LATVIA AND LITHUANIA, TOTAL POPULATION OF THOSE THREE COUNTRIES IS PROBABLY EIGHT MILLION.

WOULD WE REALLY DO THAT?

AND I HELPED PUSH THEIR ENLARGEMENT.

THEY'RE VERY HAPPY THAT THEY'RE IN NATO.

THEY HAVE DEPLOYED WITH OUR TROOPS ALL THE CRAZY PLACES THAT WE SENT OUR TROOPS, AND I BELIEVE THE ANSWER IS YES.

BUT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WOULD BE CONCERNED.

>> WELL, YOU MENTIONED INSTALLMENT OF HIS PUPPET GOVERNMENT, BUT WHAT DOES PUTIN WANT?

WHAT IS HE GETTING OUT OF THIS?

I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT, WHAT, 9% OF THE WORLD THINKING THAT THE MAN HAS LOST HIS MIND.

WHAT IS HE ACTUALLY GETTING OUT OF THIS?

>> YEAH, I ALWAYS BELIEVE THAT -- AND I'VE ASKED THIS QUESTION FOR 20 YEARS.

I'VE BEEN ANTI-PUTIN FOR 20 YEARS.

COUNTRIES GROW AND PROSPER WHEN THEY LIVE IN PEACE AND HARMONY, SO IF YOU'RE ON THESE BORDERS OF THE RUSSIAN STATE AND YOU SEE WESTERN DEMOCRACY AND CAPITALISM CAUSING THESE COUNTRIES TO GROW AND THRIVE AND YOU DON'T KIND OF CONNECT INTO THAT FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH OF YOUR PEOPLE, BUT SHUT THAT DOWN, IT ONLY SPEAKS TO ONE THING.

HE WANTS TO RECLAIM THE EMPIRE.

I MEAN, THIS IS JUST HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE GOING BACK TO NOT JUST THE SOVIET UNION, BUT GOING BACK TO CZARIST RUSSIA.

AND SO I THINK THAT IS -- THEY FEEL -- I'VE READ THE STATEMENTS.

THEY FEEL ACTUALLY MISALIGNED OR WHATEVER THE PROPER WORD SHOULD BE BECAUSE OF THE EXPANSION OF NATO, BUT NATO IS A DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE.

NATO OFFERS NO THREAT.

ONLY THESE COUNTRIES WANT THE PROTECTION OF THIS SAFETY UMBRELLA.

I THINK IT'S MOTHER RUSSIA AND PRESTIGE AND TO GET RUSSIA BACK ON THE WORLD STAGE, SEEN AS AN EQUAL POWER.

>> WELL CONGRESSMAN, YOU KNOW, THE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DEFENDED PUTIN REALLY, IN A FULL-THROATED WAY, IN OUR COUNTRY INCLUDES TUCKER CARLSON, THE FOX HOST, AND OUR OWN SENATOR IN MISSOURI, JOSH HAWLEY WHO BASICALLY CAME OUT AND SAID WE SHOULD HAVE AGREED WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN TO TAKE THE POSITION THAT UKRAINE COULD NEVER BE IN NATO, AND I BELIEVE -- CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG -- OUR POSITION HAS -- OUR BIPARTISAN POSITION IS WE DON'T TELL COUNTRIES LIKE UKRAINE WHO THEY GET TO FORM ALLIANCES WITH.

AM I RIGHT?

AND SO MY QUESTION IS, I MEAN, IF AND IT LOOKS TRAGICALLY LIKE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, RUSSIA PUTS IN A PUPPET GOVERNMENT IN UKRAINE, DON'T -- BECAUSE THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THEM BORDERING THE OLD SOVIET UNION AND RUSSIA, WELL, NOW DON'T THEY HAVE THE SAME BORDER WITH POLAND AND OTHER COUNTRIES THAT THEY THEN IN TURN JEOPARDIZE?

>> YEAH.

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME TOTALLY REJECT TUCKER CARLSON AND SENATOR HAWLEY.

JUST TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE.

AND YOU WERE RIGHT IN YOUR INTRO TO THE QUESTION, IS THAT, LISTEN, THE POSITION OF NATO AND OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES IS THAT THERE'S AN OPEN DOOR AND NO OTHER COUNTRY CAN VETO THE ADMISSION.

SO WHAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO FOR DECADES IS TRYING TO SAY, NO, THESE COUNTRIES NEAR OUR BORDERS CANNOT COME IN.

YOU SAW THAT PRESSURE THESE LAST TWO WEEKS.

THAT'S WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE.

NOT ONLY THAT, HE WANTED US TO KICK OUT THE EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THAT ARE ALREADY IN NATO.

NATO BY DEFINITION IS A DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE AND ALSO IT IS A CONSENSUS-BASED ORGANIZATION.

WHICH MEANS -- I THINK IT'S LIKE 26 COUNTRIES IN THERE NOW.

EVERY COUNTRY HAS TO AGREE.

NOW, IF YOU'RE LATVIA OR ESTONIA OR LIT WAYNE MARKS YOU'RE NOT GOING TO -- LITHUANIA, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO AGREE TO GET THROWN OUT OF NATO BECAUSE THAT'S YOUR LIFEBLOOD RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH UKRAINE.

SO IT'S FOOLHARDY.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THEIR READING HISTORY.

I WOULD NEVER APIECE A TOTALITARIAN DICTATOR.

IT REMINDS ME OF HITLER AND NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN WAVING THE, YOU KNOW, PEACE IN OUR TIME.

WELL, THERE'S NO PEACE IN OUR TIME.

SO I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED AND THOSE GUYS ARE VIEWED AS OBVIOUSLY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS AND I REJECT THAT POSITION.

>> ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE SANCTIONS SO FAR?

IS THERE ANYTHING MORE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ADMINISTRATION DO AT THIS TIME?

>> YEAH, I WAS ASKED THAT EARLIER.

YOU KNOW, THE FINANCIAL MARKETS, WORLD TRADE, I DON'T GET ALL THAT STUFF.

I GOT TO BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE RATCHETING DOWN AS MUCH AS THEY CAN AND I DON'T -- AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE, THE QUESTION OF ARE YOU GOING TO FREEZE PUTIN'S ACCOUNTS.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW.

I WOULD.

I'M NOT SURE HOW THAT ALL WORKS.

>> IF I COULD FIND THEM ON MY COMPUTER RIGHT HERE, I WOULD.

>> YEAH, AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME ZISK AGREEMENT, WHICH I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS, AND THE PRESIDENT KEPT SAYING, NO, THESE ARE HARDER THAN THOSE.

SO WHY WOULDN'T YOU SAY, LET'S DO THE ZISK AGREEMENT.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL MARNGT, BUT I AGREE WITH THE PRESIDENT THAT WHEN YOU DO THESE, YOU DON'T SEE AN IMMEDIATE EFFECT, RIGHT?

THE PAIN WILL COME DOWN THE ROAD, SO TO EXPECT US TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS AND FOR THAT TO STOP PUTIN, THAT'S NOT, BUT THAT'S REALLY SETTING A MARKER DOWN THAT THIS IS NOT JUST A HERE AND NOW.

THIS IS A LONG-TERM.

AND REALLY, THE EUROPEAN ALLIES HAVE TO BE ALL IN.

ALL IT TAKES IS FOR ONE TO BREAK AND THEN YOU'VE LOST IT.

I MEAN, LOOK AT THE MAP AND LOOK AT THE PETRO STATE THAT THEY ARE AND THE PIPELINES THAT ARE GOING -- THEY'RE GOING EAST TO WEST.

SO THAT'S OBVIOUSLY A CONCERN FOR OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES.

>> SPEAKING OF PAIN AND PETRO, THERE'S VERY LITTLE DOUBT THAT AMERICANS ARE GOING TO FEEL THE -- ANY -- THE SANCTIONS THAT WE PUT ON RUSSIA AT THE FUEL PUMP.

DO YOU HAVE ANY -- AS A LEADER, DO YOU HAVE ANY MESSAGE FOR PEOPLE ABOUT HOW WE, AGAIN, IDEALLY AS AMERICANS AND NOT AS PARTISAN, HOW SHOULD PEOPLE REACT TO THAT?

IN OTHER WORDS, CAN WE GET BACK TO THE SHARED SACRIFICE OF WORLD WAR II, OR IS IT GOING TO BE A CAMPAIGN ISSUE THAT FUEL PRICES WENT UP THIS YEAR IN AN ELECTION YEAR?

>> WELL, I'M A POLITICIAN.

IT'S ALWAYS -- BAD THINGS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE A CAMPAIGN ISSUE, WHETHER THEY'RE FAIR OR JUSTIFIED OR NOT.

IT'S JUST A -- IT'S HOW WE OPERATE.

WE HAVE HIGH PRICES NOW BEFORE THIS.

YOU KNOW, I'M A BIG FOSSIL FUEL GUY, SO WE -- YOU KNOW, THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY IN A FAIRLY GOOD SHAPE WITH OUR OWN ABILITY TO PUMP OUR OWN OIL, REFINE OUR OWN, AND GET IT.

WE DO EXPORT NOW.

EVEN CRUDE OIL, WHICH WE DIDN'T DO TEN YEARS AGO.

SO WHEN YOU START PUTTING THESE PRODUCTS ON THE WORLD MARKET -- RIGHT?

-- AND THEN YOU HAVE -- I'M A SIMPLE SUPPLY AND DEMAND GUY.

WHEN SUPPLY GOES DOWN AND DEMAND IS THE SAME OR DEMAND GOES UP, THE PRICE IS GOING TO SEND A SIGNAL AND THE SIGNAL SAYS WE SHOULD DO MORE TO GET MORE CRUDE OIL OR DO MORE TO GET MORE REFINING.

YOU CAN'T BUILD A REFINERY OVERNIGHT, AND THIS IS -- I THINK THE ATTACK ON FOSSIL FUELS DOES HURT US IN TIMES LIKE THIS.

>> I WANT TO HAVE A DONNYBROOK ABOUT THAT, BRING IN CLEAN AIR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, BUT LET'S NOT DO THAT.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS, ALVIN, IF I CAN, A FOLLOW-UP.

>> SURE.

>> JUST TO CLARIFY, WE DON'T BUY MUCH OIL FROM RUSSIA, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT, NO, WE DON'T.

>> I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT IN LITHUANIA, WHICH I KNOW REAL WELL, THEY WERE FORESIGHTED ENOUGH THAT YEARS AGO, AND POLAND IS, TOO, THEY HAVE L&G TERMINALS.

THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A TIME LIKE THIS, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE DEPENDENT, SO NOW THE NATURAL GAS THAT'S ON THE WORLD MARKET IS GOING OVER THERE AND GOOD FOR THEM.

YOU KNOW WHAT THEY NAME THE TERMINAL IN LITHUANIA?

FREEDOM.

SO THAT'S -- AND BECAUSE THEY'VE EXPERIENCED RUSSIAN EXTORTION IN CRUDE OIL.

>> YEAH, OVERNIGHT THE CONVENIENCE MART SHOT UP TO $3.44.

I PET IT SOME PLACE AND -- GET IT SOMEPLACE ELSE AND IT HADN'T GONE UP, BUT I'M SURE IT WILL.

SO AMERICANS ALREADY FEELING IT.

YOU WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN US, YOUR AVERAGE RUSSIAN WHO'S AN AUTO MECHANIC OR WORKS IN A MOVIE THEATER, WHO JUST HAS A JOB AND IS A MIDDLE CLASS INDIVIDUAL WITH A FAMILY.

WHAT IS THIS -- HOW IS THIS GOING TO IMPACT THOSE FAMILIES AND THOSE PEOPLE?

>> YEAH, WELL, THEY'RE GOING TO FEEL A LOT OF PAIN, BUT SEE, DICTATORS DON'T MIND THAT.

I MEAN, THEY'RE DICTATORS, AND SO -- AND THEY PREY ON THEIR FEAR.

THIS WHOLE PART IS PART OF A FEAR CAMPAIGN THAT THE WEST IS COMING AFTER MOTHER RUSSIA, SO WE'RE DEFENDING -- SO THAT HELPS PUTIN STAY IN POWER.

THAT'S HOW DICTATORS STAY IN FOUR.

SO THEY'RE WILLING TO DEPRIVE THEIR CITIZENS OF LIVELIHOOD TO -- SO HOW DOES THE RUSSIAN MILITARY GET SO STRONG AND SO BIG?

WELL, ALL THAT PETRO STATE DOLLARS ARE SELLING CRUDE OIL AND NATURAL GAS, DID IT GO TO THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE?

NO, IT DIDN'T GO TO THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.

IT WENT TO PUTIN AND HIS OLIGARCHS AND TO THE MILITARY.

SO HE REALLY CARES LESS ABOUT THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN CITIZEN AND THAT'S SAD.

>> DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF HOW THIS, WHAT WILL UNDOUBTEDLY BE A REFUGEE CRISIS, IS GOING TO PLAY OUT?

WE ALREADY SAW IMAGES LAST NIGHT, I WAS WATCHING ALL THREE CABLE NETWORKS, JUST UNBELIEVABLE LINES OF CARS, YOU KNOW, HEADED OUT OF KYIV AND -- I MEAN, THEY HAD TO GO SOMEWHERE AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THAT ISSUE THAT COMES WITH EVERY ONE OF THESE -- >> REMEMBER -- I'M SORRY.

>> I'M JUST CURIOUS IF YOU HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO WHAT WE MIGHT EXPECT.

>> WELL, THIS IS EUROPE, SO THESE ARE WESTERN STATES AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF IMMIGRATION INTO EUROPEAN UNION.

I THINK A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE HAVE PLACES TO GO.

THEY HAVE AUNTS AND UNCLES, GRANDMA AND GRANDPAS, SONS AND DAUGHTERS SOMEWHERE IN EUROPE AND THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO GET THERE.

I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE LIKE THE SYRIA REFUGEE ISSUE OR YOU SEE COMING ACROSS FROM NORTH AFRICA.

I COULD BE WRONG, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SEE THESE FOLKS IN BIG TENT CITIES AND WITH HANDOUTS.

YOU MAY HAVE TRANSITION, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE -- I JUST DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING.

>> OKAY.

>> AND I'M GOING TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT AND I SAY THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A SILLY QUESTION, BUT I DON'T KNOW, BUT JUST FROM WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, IF I WAS A CITIZEN OF UKRAINE AND THIS WAS STARTING, AND THE UNITED STATES BEEN AWARE FOR MONTHS THAT HE'S UP TO SOMETHING AND LOOKING LIKE HE'S, YOU KNOW, GOING TO GO INTO THIS COUNTRY, THREE MONTHS AGO, I COULD HAVE LEFT.

I COULD HAVE JUST LEFT.

THERE'S NO -- NOTHING HOLDING ME IN UKRAINE OTHER THAN MAYBE HAVING WHATEVER PASSPORT I NEEDED.

BUT I COULD HAVE LEFT.

AND I'M NOT SAYING PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE LEFT.

I'M JUST SAYING THAT WAS A POSSIBILITY.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT.

THE UKRAINIANS, IT'S AN INTERESTING RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE THEY ARE SOMEWHAT ETHNICALLY RELATED.

THE LANGUAGES ARE VERY CLOSE, BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

SO I THINK THERE'S SOME -- YOU READ THE ACCOUNT.

SOME ARE SAYING THEY'RE BROTHERS.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ATTACK US.

YOU KNOW, MY SISTER LIVES IN MOSCOW, THIS IS FAMILY.

SO THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO THEN THE FLIP SIDE OF THIS DEBATE IS, WELL, SOME PEOPLE JUST SAY, OKAY, IT'S A NEW REGIME, I'M GOING TO STAY AND I'LL LEARN TO LIVE UNDER THIS.

THE QUESTION I'VE BEEN ASKING, A LOT OF -- THERE ARE SOME HARDENED UKRAINIAN FIGHTERS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE TRENCHES AND BEEN TO THE EAST AND THE QUESTION WILL BE, WILL THERE BE AN INTERNAL INSURGENCY THAT WILL REALLY DISRUPT THIS STUFF AND WHAT WILL THE GENERAL POPULATION DO?

YOU SAW THE PICTURES OF THE 90-YEAR-OLD WOMAN TAKING WEAPONS TRAINING.

WILL IT GO THAT FAR?

I JUST DON'T KNOW.

ARE THEY WILLING TO FIGHT TO DEATH FOR THEIR COUNTRY AGAINST OVERWHELMING ODDS?

WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT REAL SOON.

>> CONGRESSMAN, FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE IN CONGRESS WITH SOME EMPHASIS ON -- OR FOCUS ON UKRAINE, CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT MR. ZALENS SK Y FROM MAYBE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE?

IT'S SUCH A BIZARRE THING TO THINK ABOUT, THIS GUY IS A TV STAR IN RUSSIA AND A COMEDIAN AND NOW HE'S IN THIS UNBELIEVABLE SPOT.

IS HE UP TO IT?

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT HIM?

>> WELL, THE ONLY THING I KNOW, I WAS THERE FOR HIS ELECTION.

I WAS THERE A COUPLE DAYS BEFORE AND A COUPLE DAYS AFTER.

I WATCHED THE DEBATE.

THEY HAD A BIG DEBATE AT THE SOCCER STADIUM, AND THE PEOPLE I WAS WITH, THEY DIDN'T REALLY KNOW IF HE REALLY COULD SPEAK UKRAINE, RIGHT?

BECAUSE HE'S BEEN SO MUCH OF A TV PERSONALITY IN RUSSIA.

SO WHEN HE WAS ABLE TO GO RIGHT INTO UKRAINE DIALECT, IT SURPRISED EVEN SOME OF THE INSIDE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE THAT I WAS WITH, WHICH SHOWS YOU THAT HE ROSE TO POWER BASED UPON HIS TV SHOW, RIGHT?

AND MAYBE HE GOT MORE THAN HE BARGAINED FOR.

I MEAN, HIS TV SHOW WAS A REFORMER, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO -- UKRAINE STILL HAS, YOU KNOW, HISTORICAL CORRUPTION AND ALL THOSE PROBLEMS.

EVEN THE LAST PRESIDENT, WHO WAS ALSO A FAIRLY STRONG LEADER, WAS TRYING TO MOVE TO THE LEFT.

THE PEOPLE REJECTED THAT BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE WAS STILL NOT TOTALLY CLEAN, SO THAT'S WHY THEY MOVED TO ZALENSKY, AND YEAH, HE REALLY HAS HIS HANDS FULL.

I REALLY -- I PRAY FOR HIM BECAUSE I THINK HIS HEART WAS RIGHT.

HE DIDN'T DO THIS OUT OF SELF -- YOU KNOW, RAISING HIMSELF UP.

HE WAS A TV STAR, RIGHT?

WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS?

I THINK IT WAS FOR THE COUNTRY AND THE -- PUTIN CANNOT ACCEPT A DEMOCRATIC FREE UKRAINE AS A NEIGHBOR.

>> WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG IF YOU ELECT A GUY FROM A TV SHOW AS PRESIDENT OF YOUR COUNTRY?

IN OUR LAST -- >> I'M NOT TAKING THE BAIT!

I'M NOT TAKING THE BAIT!

>> I'M SORRY, I'M SORRY, THAT WAS TOO EASY.

IN THE LAST FIVE MINUTES, MAYBE TALK ABOUT SOME DOMESTIC POLITICS HERE.

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH OUR -- ROY BLUNT IS STEPPING DOWN AND JOINING YOU PROBABLY IN BEING AS RELAXED AS YOU ARE IN THE FUTURE.

ARE YOU FOLLOWING OUR RACE FOR THAT NOMINATION IN MISSOURI AT ALL?

>> YEAH, QUITE A BIT BECAUSE I KNOW SOME OF THE PLAYERS.

I KNOW VICKY WELL.

OBVIOUSLY I DON'T KNOW GREITENS VERY WELL.

I KNOW THE STORIES BEHIND HIM.

SCHMITT HAS ALL OVER THE NEWS BASED UPON MASKING, SO WE'RE FOLLOWING THAT.

I ACTUALLY TRAVELED TO UKRAINE, THE LAST TIME I WENT WAS WITH VICKY IN HER POSITION OVER THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE.

WE VISITED OUR TROOPS IN THE WEST, WE WENT TO THE CAPITAL.

I SERVED WITH HER A LONG TIME AND I'M A BIG FAN.

>> WELL, EARLIER IF OUR SHOW, WE TALKED ABOUT FORMER SENATOR JACK DANFORTH FLOATED THE IDEA, CHI ASSUME YOU SAW, ABOUT AN INDEPENDENT CANDIDACY.

ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT?

AND ALSO WHILE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE I KNOW YOU KNOW, IN RESPONSE TO THAT, BILLY LONG, WHO IS A FORMER COLLEAGUE OF YOURS -- >> RIGHT.

>> -- NOMINATED VICKY HARTZLER WHO YOU JUST MENTIONED, AS GOOD CANDIDATE FOR THAT INDEPENDENT POSITION.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW -- >> WHAT ARE YOU MAKING OF THAT IDEA?

DO YOU THINK THERE'S -- THERE'S OBVIOUSLY, WE TALKED ABOUT IT EARLIER, THERE'S A PRETTY BIG SPLIT RIGHT NOW IN YOUR PARTY AND WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, I TAUGHT IN HIGH SCHOOL AND NOW I'M A TEACHING AT A LOCAL UNIVERSITY AND THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATES DON'T WIN.

THEY JUST DON'T WIN.

SO YOU CAN DO IT AND THEN THE REPUBLICANS WHO MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION MIGHT -- MY POSITION WOULD BE GET INVOLVED AND GET THE PERSON ELECTED FROM YOUR PARTY WHO YOU WANT TO SEND TO THE GENERAL ELECTION.

>> ALVIN, WE NEED TO HAVE HIM ON THE FIRST PART OF THE SHOW.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY -- BILL McCLELLAN SCHOOLED US ON THIS ABOUT A HALF HOUR AGO AND WE SHOULD BE -- HE'S A WISE MAN AND WE DEFINITELY SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO HIM.

I'M HAVING ALL KIND OF ISSUES TODAY, AREN'T I?

>> TECHNOLOGY IS -- >> HOLD MY CALLS, WILL YOU PLEASE?

>> YEAH, I WAS JUST BEING HONEST.

>> WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST TWO.

CONGRESSMAN SHIMKUS, YOU SAID YOU DID 24 YEARS.

I'M PRETTY GOOD AT MATH.

YOU RAN 12 TIMES.

DO YOU WISH YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO RUN FOR OFFICE EVERY TWO YEARS?

>> WELL, I DON'T -- THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, BUT IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.

>> OKAY.

>> BECAUSE SENATORS WILL NOT WANT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BEING AROUND MIDTERM TO RUN AGAINST THEM.

IT WOULD BE A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE AND SO THEORETICALLY, I ACTUALLY RAN MORE THAN TWO YEARS, ON THE BALLOT SINCE 1988, AND I'M NOT ON THE BALLOT THIS YEAR.

>> IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

YOU CAN RUN AS AN INDEPENDENT.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> ARE YOU READY TO ANNOUNCE TONIGHT YOU'RE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR OF ILLINOIS?

>> NO, I HAVE A GREAT CANDIDATE.

>> THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION.

DO YOU HAVE A -- THAT ELECTION IS COMING UP.

DO YOU HAVE A CANDIDATE IN MIND?

>> YEAH, RICHARD IRVIN, THE MAYOR OF THE SECOND LARGEST CITY IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, AURORA, COMPELLING LIFE STORY AND ACTUALLY SERVED IN THE MILITARY, GOT OUT OF THE -- HIS MOTHER WAS 16 WHEN SHE HAD HIM, UNMARRIED, AND JUST HAS DONE -- WENT BACK HOME.

I LIKE PEOPLE WHO, WHEN THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL, WHEN THEY GO BACK HOME.

I LIVE IN MY HOMETOWN OF COLLINSVILLE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'LL EVER DRAG ME OUT.

I'LL BE BURIED HERE ONE DAY AND SO THAT -- HE HAS THAT STORY.

>> OKAY.

WELL, CONGRESSMAN SHIMKUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE DO APPRECIATE IT.

WE GOT TO RUN.

THESE ARE TOUGH TIMES AND YOU REALLY HELPED ME UNDERSTAND IT.

I LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING YOU ON THE SHOW AGAIN AND MAYBE -- A LITTLE BIT MORE ENJOYABLE TALK, OKAY?

THANK YOU SO MUCH AND THANK YOU GUYS FOR WATCHING DONNYBROOK AND NEXT UP.

HAVE A GREAT WEEK.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.