>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO THE FIRST NEXT UP OF THE NEW YEAR.

AND ALVIN REID OF THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN AND I ARE SO VERY EXCITED AND GRATEFUL TO WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM DR. MICHAEL KINCH.

HE'S AN ASSOCIATE VICE CHANCELLOR AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS WHERE HE HELPS LEAD ENTREPRENEURSHIP ACTIVITIES AS WELL AS RESEARCH ON INNOVATION IN BIOPHARMACEUTICAL RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.

HE FOUNDED AND LEADS CRIB, THE CENTER FOR RESEARCH INNOVATION IN BIOTECHNOLOGY AND DRUG DEVELOPMENT AND HE'S AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE COVID-19 DISCUSSION.

DR. KINCH, WELCOME BACK TO DONNYBROOK.

IT'S GRAT TO HAVE YOU.

>> THANKS FOR THE INVITATION.

GREAT TO BE BACK.

>> WHERE ARE WE TODAY, ON JANUARY 6th, 2021, WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE SPEED WITH WHICH OMICRON PRESENTED ITSELF?

>> I WAS, FRANKLY.

WE HAD GOTTEN USED TO COMPARATIVELY SLOW VIRUSES AND THIS WILL PROBABLY GO DOWN AS ONE OF THE FASTEST VIRUSES THAT'S EVER, AT LEAST FROM A PANDEMIC STANDPOINT, HIT THE WORLD.

AND SO THIS THING IS MOVING VERY, VERY RAPIDLY, FAR MORE THAN I THINK ANY OF US ANTICIPATED.

>> DOCTOR, WE FIND OURSELVES, LIKE YOU SAY, OH, 11 MONTHS, I GUESS, AFTER THE VACCINE.

I WOULDN'T SAY IT WAS READILY AVAILABLE, I GUESS, IN LATE JANUARY, EARLY FEBRUARY, BUT IT WAS AROUND.

DID YOU THINK WE WOULD STILL BE HAVING THE BIG DISCREPANCY IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED AND THE HEATED ARGUMENT ABOUT VACCINATIONS THAT WE ARE?

NOW, IF YOU COULD HAVE PREDICTED A YEAR FROM NOW, ARE YOU SHOCKED THAT WE'RE STILL AT THIS POINT, TOO?

>> SADLY, A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, I THINK MAYBE WITH WENDY, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE ANTICIPATING.

>> OKAY.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US THAT EVERY SINGLE VACCINE THAT HAS EVER BEEN INTRODUCED HAS MET WITH RESISTANCE, AND SO IT DIDN'T SURPRISE ME AND I REMEMBER HAVING A CONVERSATION IN NOVEMBER OF 2020 IN WHICH THE QUESTION WAS, IS THERE GOING TO BE A FIGHT TO BE FIRST IN LINE FOR THE VACCINE?

AND I RESPONDED WITH, I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A FIGHT TO BE THE LAST IN LINE FOR THE VACCINE.

AND THAT'S WHAT HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US.

THERE'S ALWAYS A SUSPICIOUS ELEMENT THAT DOESN'T WANT TO GET VACCINATED.

WHAT HAS SURPRISED ME IS THE POLITICIZATION OF THIS IN THAT YOU CAN ALMOST PREDICT WHO'S NOT GETTING VACCINATED BASED ON WHO THEY SUPPORT IN THEIR, YOU KNOW, POLITICAL CANDIDATE AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT, FRANKLY, IS VERY, VERY DANGEROUS.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE ONE TRUE DISAPPOINTMENT THAT WE HAVE, THAT WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO BREAK THROUGH TO.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, "BETWEEN HOPE AND FEAR: THE HISTORY OF VACCINATION," IS THIS ONE THING THAT -- ONE COMPONENT OF THIS -- OF THE PLACE WE FIND OURSELVES IN TODAY THAT IS JUST SO EERILY REMINISCENT OF SOMETHING HISTORICALLY THAT YOU COVER IN THE BOOK, THAT YOU ARE FINDING YOURSELF THINKING, OH WOW?

>> EVERY SINGLE CHAPTER RHYMES WITH WHAT'S GOING ON NOW, AND EVERY CHAPTER SORT OF DEALS WITH A DIFFERENT ASPECT OF VACCINES AND VACCINE REJECTION.

WHEN I STARTED OFF TO WRITE THE BOOK, I HAD NO INTENTION OF WRITING A BOOK ABOUT VACCINE REJECTION.

IT JUST SORT OF EVOLVED THAT WAY BECAUSE WHEN YOU START LOOKING AT THE HISTORY, YOU SEE AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

SO WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1840s IN NEW ENGLAND, IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF ENGLAND, OLD GL ENGLAND, I GUESS, AND OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD WHEN THE IDEA OF A MANDATE FOR A SMALLPOX VACCINE CAME OUT.

THERE WAS RIOTING IN THE STREETS IN, I BELIEVE IT WAS NEW HAMPSHIRE, MASSACHUSETTS, LONDON, PETERBOROUGH, A NUMBER OF OTHER PLACES, AND IT'S BECAUSE, FRANKLY, VACCINES -- AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS, I KNOW, ON THIS SHOW IN THE PAST -- ARE TWO THINGS.

TWO THINGS REALLY CHARACTERIZE VACCINES.

ONE IS THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY PROBLEMATIC WITH THE mRNA VACCINES BECAUSE IT'S A NEW TECHNOLOGY AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT'S NEW, SO THEY'RE FRANKLY, AFRAID OF IT.

THE SECOND PART THAT COMPOUNDS THE PROBLEM IS THAT VACCINES ARE GIVEN TO PEOPLE THAT ARE FEELING JUST FINE AT THE TIME.

THEY'RE HEALTHY, THEY'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT DISEASE, AND THEY THINK THEY'RE NEVER GOING TO GET THE DISEASE.

AND THE ISSUE IS THAT YOU'VE GOT TO CONVINCE THAT POPULATION YOU'RE REALLY SUSCEPTIBLE, AND EVEN THE HEADLINES OF THE LAST FEW YEARS HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

WE HAVE LOST -- AND I KNOW I AM A BROKEN RECORD ON THIS PARTICULAR STATISTIC, BUT WE HAVE LOST NOT ONLY MORE SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS THAN WE LOST IN THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR JUST IN THE UNITED STATES TO COVID-19, BUT WE HAVE LOST MORE AMERICANS IN THE PAST TWO YEARS THAN HAVE EVER DIED IN COMBAT SINCE 1775.

NOT ONLY THAT, WE'RE LOOKING AT DOUBLING THAT NUMBER IF WE CONTINUE ON THE CURRENT RATE WE'RE AT.

SO THIS IS CRAZY.

WE'RE GOING TO VERY LIKELY LOSE A MILLION AMERICANS BEFORE THIS PANDEMIC IS OVER AND THE OTHER FRUSTRATING PART OF THIS AND TERRIFYING PART OF THIS IS IT'S NOT OVER YET.

WHEN OMICRON'S DONE, IT'S NOT THE LAST ONE.

THERE WILL BE OTHERS.

>> OKAY.

WELL, DOCTOR, I STARTED SCHOOL IN 1965, KINDERGARTEN, OKAY?

AND WE ALL GOT VACCINATED.

NOW -- AND I THINK IT WAS MY PARENTS AND EVERYBODY ELSE'S PARENTS WAS LIKE, OKAY, YOU'RE GETTING VACCINATED BECAUSE WHATEVER MY THOUGHTS ARE ON IT, IT WOULD WORSE TO GET NUMPS OR MEASLES OR ALL THE THINGS WE'RE VACCINATED FOR.

I GUESS POLIO, WE GOT A VACCINATION, BUT THAT'S PRETTY MUCH BEEN ELIMINATED AT THAT TIME.

WHY WAS -- I GUESS THE GENERATION BEFORE MINE, YOU KNOW, MY PARENTS, WHY WERE THEY WILLING WITHOUT FIGHT -- AND SOME PROBABLY DID, I DON'T KNOW, BUT FOR THE MOST PART REALLY WITHOUT FIGHT, TO JUST SAY YOU'RE GETTING VACCINATED?

AND THE SCHOOLS HAD NOT REALLY GOTTEN TO THE POINT OF SAYING YOU'RE NOT COMING THROUGH THESE DOORS IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED.

WE JUST ALL GOT VACCINATED.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO MAJOR THINGS THAT JUMP OUT.

THE FIRST IS THAT OUR PARENTS REMEMBERED INFECTIOUS DISEASES.

THEY LIVED THROUGH POLIO.

WE'VE GAINED A HUBRIS IN THINKING WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE BROUGHT DOWN BY ANY INFECTIOUS DISEASES.

WE'VE GOT ANTIBIOTICS AND ANTIVIRALS AND A PLETHORA OF VACCINES AND THIS ISN'T GOING TO BE A PRETTY BIG.

AND THAT EVOLVED INTO REALLY THE SECOND PROBLEM, WHICH IS THAT WE ALLOWED ANTI-VAXXERS TO KIND OF DICTATE THE SITUATION, AND WHEN IN DOUBT, BLAME CALIFORNIA BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT WAS AROUND THE SAME TIME PERIOD, IN THE '60s AND '70s, WHEN CALIFORNIA SAID, OKAY, CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS TO VACCINATIONS CAN ALLOW THEIR KIDS TO GO TO SCHOOL WITHOUT THOSE BEING MANDATED.

THEY CAN AVOID THE MANDATE DUE TO RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS AND OTHERWISE.

FRANKLY, THAT WAS A TREMENDOUS MISTAKE.

IT WAS THE CONSUMMATE SLIPPERY SLOPE BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN MORE AND MORE PEOPLE OPT OUT.

AND THEY'RE NOT OPTING OUT BECAUSE OF SINCERE RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

THEY EITHER DON'T TRUST THE SYSTEM OR THERE'S SOME OTHER PROBLEM THAT THEY BASICALLY DON'T BELIEVE IN THE AUTHORITY, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT.

IF YOU LOOK HISTORICALLY, THERE ARE -- THE FAR LEFT AND THE FAR RIGHT BOTH SHARE A REJECTION OF VACCINES.

THIS IS NOT A REPUBLICAN PROBLEM, THIS IS NOT A DEMOCRAT PROBLEM.

THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH POPULATIONS OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T TRUST AUTHORITY.

AND THAT IS HISTORICALLY THE FAR LEFT AND THE FAR RIGHT.

AND IF YOU LOOK -- AND I DON'T WANT TO PROMOTE THIS CRAZY PERSON'S VIEWS, BUT ONE OF THE TOP BOOKS IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW IS WRITTEN BY RFK TALKING ABOUT HOW VACCINES ARE A PLOT AGAINST US, TRYING TO MURDER EVERYONE.

HE SHARES BASICALLY THE EXACT SAME VIEWS AS DONALD TRUMP ON THE RIGHT.

AND SO YOU HAVE, IN THIS CASE, A STRANGE MARRIAGE OF POLITICS, BUT THEY DO SHARE A LACK OF TRUST IN AUTHORITY.

>> DR. KINCH, COULD YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND WHY THAT -- I THINK WHEN WE FIRST HEARD THE STORIES ABOUT OMICRON, AND GRANTED, THIS WAS VERY RECENTLY, SO IT'S PROBABLY STILL DEVELOPING IN YOUR WORLD AND YOUR COMMUNITY OF COLLEAGUES, BUT WHEN WE FIRST HEARD ABOUT IT, IT WAS, EH, MILD SYMPTOMS.

SO I'M A BELIEVER THAT PEOPLE WOULDN'T -- YOU KNOW, I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THAT, MILD SYMPTOMS, I'LL GO TO THE GROCERY STORE, WHAT'S NEXT.

THEY HEAR MILD SYMPTOMS.

THEY DIDN'T HEAR THE SECOND PART OF THE STORY, WHICH WAS THAT THE HOSPITALIZATIONS WOULD SKYROCKET AND THAT'S WHAT WE CAN'T HAVE.

CAN YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND WHY, IF THE SYMPTOMS ARE MILD, WHY ARE WE STILL SO WORRIED ABOUT SWAMPING THE HOSPITALS?

>> SO THERE'S A COUPLE THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, THIS DISEASE, COVID-19, IS -- REALLY HAS TWO COMPONENTS TO IT.

THERE'S THE VIRUS THAT DOES THE DAMAGE, BUT THEN THERE'S ALSO IN SOME PEOPLE AN OVERACTION OF THE IMMUNE RESPONSE WHICH CAUSES THE BODY'S DEFENSES TO BASICALLY WORK AGAINST US.

SO WE DON'T YET -- AND THAT IMMUNE RESPONSE PROBLEM IS PROBABLY CONTRIBUTING TO LONG COVID, WHICH I THINK EVERYONE'S PROBABLY HEARD OF, AND PROBABLY CONTRIBUTING TO A LOT OF REAL DAMAGE AND THE REASON WE KNOW THERE IS THERE ARE TOMORROW STEROIDS THAT CAN SUPPRESS -- SOME STEROIDS THAT CAN SUPPRESS THE IMMUNE SYSTEM THAT CAN HELP SOME COVID PATIENTS.

WE MADE A TREMENDOUS MISTAKE BY SAYING THIS IS COMP COMPARATIVELY MILD AND THE KEYWORD IS COMPARE TIFRL.

THE COMPARE TIFRL IS IF YOU'VE BEEN FULLY VACCINATED, YOU DON'T HAVE AT LOT TO WORRY ABOUT MIDDLE SCHOOL YOU'RE IMMUNE-COMPROMISED, IF YOU'RE UNDERGONE CHEMOTHERAPY AND OTHER IMMUNE SUPPRESSING MEDICATIONS.

THEN IT'S MORE DANGEROUS.

BUT FOR VACCINATED, THIS ISN'T GOING TO BE THE END OF THE WORLD.

FOR UNVACCINATED, THIS IS GOING TO BE A HOLOCAUST, FRANKLY, AND THERE IS GOING TO KILL PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE TO DIE AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO MADDENING ABOUT IT.

IT'S ALSO GOING TO KILL AGAIN OUR SUSCEPTIBLE POPULATIONS, THE ELDERLY AND OTHERS, AND IT CAN BE AVOIDED -- OR COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED THROUGH VACCINATION.

IF WE WERE AT THE STAGE NOW WHERE PEOPLE WOULD TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AND SAY I'M GOING TO GET VACCINATED, YOU'RE PROBABLY OUT OF LUCK AT THIS POINT BECAUSE OMICRON IS MOVING SO FAST THAT IT IS GOING -- YOU'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GET INFECTED BEFORE YOUR VACCINE CAN KICK IN AT THIS POINT.

A WEEK AGO, I THINK YOU'D HAVE BEEN FINE, AND THAT'S AGAIN WHAT IS SO MADDENING ABOUT THIS, BUT I'LL SORT OF PROJECT FORWARD.

LET'S HOPE THIS -- HISTORY TELLS US, AND WE'LL KNOW IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, LET'S ASSUME THIS IS A RELATIVELY OR COMPARATIVELY MILD.

THERE ARE OTHER VARIANTS THAT ARE SITTING OUT THERE RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S A VARIANT IN CAMEROON THAT HAS EVEN MORE MUTATIONS THAT MIGHT RESIST VACCINE.

THIS ISN'T OVER, AND FRANKLY, THE ONLY WAY THIS ENDS IS FOR EVERYONE TO GET VACCINATED BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO ALLOW THESE MUTATIONS TO KEEP BEING CREATED SO LONG AS THE VIRUS HAS SOME FOOD TO FEED ON.

AND THE FOOD IT'S FEEDING ON ARE THE UNVACCINATED.

THE UNVACCINATED GIVE IT AN INCUBATOR TO SELECT FOR THE NASTIEST FORM THAT IT CAN, AND UNTIL WE GET CONTROL OF THIS, AND WHEN I SAY CONTROL, WE HAVE TO DO THIS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE DO THIS IN MISSOURI, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO DO THIS GLOBALLY.

AND SO SUBSAHARAN AFRICA, WHICH IS BEING UNDERSERVE WITH VACCINATIONS, WE NEED TO BE RUSHING THEM AS MUCH VACCINE AS WE CAN GET TO THEM AND IF AMERICANS AREN'T GOING TO TAKE IT, GIVE IT TO THE FOLKS WHO WANT IT AND NEED IT.

BUT ULTIMATELY, THIS DOESN'T END UNTIL THE VACCINE RESISTANT POPULATION, IN THIS CASE RESISTANCE NOT BEING A BIOLOGICAL THING, BUT A PSYCHOLOGICAL THING, UNTIL THEY -- WE EITHER INDUCE MANDATES OR OTHERWISE REQUIRE THEM TO BE VACCINATED, OR FRANKLY, UNTIL THEY DIE OFF.

AND IF WE SELECT FOR MORE AND MORE DANGEROUS VERSIONS, IT'S TRAGIC, BUT WE'RE GOING TO LOSE A LOT OF PEOPLE PREMATURELY.

>> IS IT STILL TRUE THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOSPITALIZED AND MAYBE ULTIMATELY PASSING AWAY ARE UNVACCINATED PEOPLE?

AND WHAT IS THAT -- IF YOU COULD BALLPARK A PERCENTAGE, WHAT IS THAT?

IF 100 PEOPLE ARE IN THE HOSPITAL, AND LET'S SAY WITH THE OMICRON VARIANT, WHAT PERCENTAGE ARE THOSE ARE PROBABLY UNVACCINATED?

>> I'VE HEARD NUMBERS RANGING FROM 86 TO 95% OF HOSPITALIZED ARE UNVACCINATED AND THE REMAINING PERCENTAGE ARE THOSE WHO, AGAIN, HAVE A WEAK IMMUNE SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY'RE ELDERLY, THEY'VE UNDERGONE THERAPY AND OTHER SITUATIONS.

THERE'S ALSO ANOTHER DEATH RATE AND WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO STOP THINKING IN TERMS OF WHO DIED OF INFECTION, BUT WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO THINK IN TERMS OF WHAT'S CALLED EXCESSIVE DEATH.

BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE -- YOU'RE GOING TO SEE, HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US THIS, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT INCREASE OF HEART ATTACK DEATHS, CANCER DEATHS, COPD, EMPHYSEMA, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, ALL THE AILMENTS THAT ARE PROBLEMATIC NORMALLY ARE GOING TO BE EXACERBATED BY THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO GO SEE THEIR DOCTORS, THE EMERGENCY ROOMS ARE SWAMPED.

A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF CAR EXPECT, GUNSHOT VICTIMS ARE GOING TO DIE BECAUSE WE HAVE A DOUBLE PROBLEM.

THE EMERGENCY ROOMS ARE FILL AND OUR INCREDIBLE MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS OUT THERE ARE BURNING OUT AND THEY'RE BUNG OUT AT AN UNPRECEDENTED RATE.

>> WELL, JUST THIS WEEK, BJC, AT LEAST THE FIRST HOSPITAL SYSTEM LOCALLY, ANNOUNCING THAT THEY ARE CANCELLING ELECTIVE SURGERIES AND THAT WAS NOT SURPRISING, BUT I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THE POINT THAT YOU'RE MAKING, DR. KINCH, AND BECAUSE THIS IS SUCH A RAPIDLY EVOLVING STORY, WALK US THROUGH THIS DEBATE OVER TESTING.

IS IT -- WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING?

THERE ARE PEOPLE, INCLUDING, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, THE CDC, SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, TESTING, EH.

I MEAN, WHERE ARE WE TODAY?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THE CDC TWO YEARS RUNNING NOW HAS NOT BEEN AS RELIABLE OF A SOURCE OF INFORMATION AS THEY HAD BEEN HISTORICALLY.

THE TESTING SITUATION IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC FROM A LOT OF ANGLES.

ONE IS THAT OMICRON MOVES SO FAST THAT YOU MIGHT TEST NEGATIVE THIS MORNING AND BE SICK TOMORROW WITH OMICRON.

AND SO THAT'S -- IF -- THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT'S BEHIND THE CDC.

I THINK THE CDC IS SORT OF HAVING ITS OWN OTHER ISSUES, BUT FROM YOU AND I CAN RESPOND TO THIS, FRANKLY, UNLESS WE LOCK DOWN OURSELVES, WE'RE GOING TO GET EXPOSED, AND SO WE'RE BACK TO ORDERING MEALS TO BE DELIVERED AND MY WIFE CALLS IT BEING LIKE A SHARK IN A GROCERY STORE, NEVER STOP.

ALWAYS BE MOVING.

AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THIS UNTIL, AGAIN, WE CAN GET ENOUGH PEOPLE VACCINATED THAT NEW VARIANTS GO AWAY.

I WAS LOOKING THROUGH A REPORT YESTERDAY AND THEY HAD THE HEAD OF MEDICINE AT UCF, AND HE WAS SAYING ALL THIS IS GOING TO BE BEHIND US BY MID FEBRUARY.

AND I HOPE THAT THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT THAT ONLY TALKS ABOUT OMICRON, AND WE KNOW FROM DELTA AND ALPHA AND SOON TO BE OMICRON THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE A PI AND AN RHO, AND AN OMEGA AND IT'S JUST GOING TO KEEP GOING ON AND ON UNTIL WE GET THE VACCINATION RATE TO THE POINT WHERE THE VIRUS CAN'T MUTATE ANYMORE.

>> AND ONE OF THOSE MUTATIONS, COULD IT JUST BE LIKE WORSE -- THE FIRST THING WAS LIKE MILD SYMPTOMS WITH OMICRON, BUT COULD ONE COME BARRELING IN THAT IS WORSE?

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I HATE TO PUT IT IN THOSE TERMS, BUT IT HIT AND IT'S WIPING PEOPLE OUT WHO AREN'T VACCINATED.

DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD MOVE UNVACCINATED PEOPLE TO NOT BE SO DUG IN?

>> I THINK EXPERIENCE IN HISTORY TEACHES US THAT AT SOME POINT IT BECOMES AKIN TO A RELIGIOUS BELIEF AND YOU CAN SHOW THEM ALL THE DATA IN THE WORLD, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME AROUND.

AND AT THAT POINT, YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS.

YOU LEAVE THEM TO THEIR OWN FATE OR YOU MANDATE VACCINATION OR THEY DON'T COME AUTO IN SOCIETY.

PLACES LIKE FRANCE, LET PE PUT IN SOME PERSPECTIVE.

FRANCE HISTORICALLY HAS BEEN ANTI-VACCINE AND VERY MUCH EVERYONE SHOULD DO THEIR OWN THING.

IF YOU FOLLOWED THE NEWS IN THE LAST 36 HOURS, THE FRENCH PRESIDENT BASICALLY SAID -- SORRY FOR THE LANGUAGE, WE WANT TO PISS OFF ALL THE UNVACCINATED AND REQUIRE THEM TO BECOME VACCINATED BY ESSENTIALLY EXCLUDING THEM FROM LIVING PUBLIC LIFE.

AND AS HARD AS THAT IS TO HEAR AND TO THINK NO ONE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT, THAT'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO REQUIRE BECAUSE WE'VE ALLOWED THIS THING TO ESCAPE AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

THIS IS LIKE FRIDAY THE 13th ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, AND FIVE, AND WE KEEP LETTING THE HERO LIVE -- OR THE VR ILLAIN LIVE AND WE NEED TO DO AWAY WITH THEM SO WE AREN'T HAVING PI, RHO, OMEGA AND BEYOND.

>> DR. KINCH, YOU SAID THAT -- AND SEVERAL ARTICLES HAVE POINTED OUT THAT OMICRON IS NOT ONLY MAKING PEOPLE SICK, BUT REVEALING ILLNESSES, UNDERLYING ILLNESSES THAT PEOPLE WERE NOT AWARE OF.

COULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO OUR VIEWERS, WHY THAT'S SO IMPORTANT?

THE DOCTOR THAT WAS QUOTED IN THIS ARTICLE SAID THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING MUCH SICKER IN MUCH MORE PROFOUND WAYS, THAT AS YOU SAID, IT'S MUTATING INTO THE VARIANTS.

WHY IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY IS SO KEENLY INTERESTED IN IN WATCHING?

>> THINK OF THE OUTBREAK AS BEING LIKE THE SAVANNA IN AFRICA AND YOU HAVE A PREDATOR GOING AFTER A PACK OF ANIMALS.

IT'S GOING TO START CHASING THEM AND IT'S GOING TO FIND THE WEAK ONE AND WEED OUT THE WEAK ONE, RIGHT?

OMICRON IS REVEALING THAT PEOPLE THAT MAYBE HAD OTHER UNDERLYING CONDITIONS THAT EXACERBATES OMICRON, OMICRON IS BASICALLY WEEDING THEM OUT.

THE DANGER IS, YOU CAN ALSO THINK OF -- THAT'S ONE BAD ANALOGY AND I'LL FOLLOW IT WITH A SECOND.

OMICRON IS THE PREDATOR AND WE ARE THE PREY AND IT'S EATING US.

AND THERE IS A COMPETITION AND EVOLUTION OCCURRING WITH THE VIRUS AT A REMARKABLY FAST LEVEL BECAUSE VIRUSES EVOLVE AT THOUSANDS, IF NOT MILLIONS OF TIMES FASTER THAN PEOPLE.

SO WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO FIND IS THAT IF OMICRON IS EATING THE WEAK, THEN PI OR RHO OR SOME FUTURE VIRUS IS GOING TO BE ABLE -- THE ONLY WAY IT'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET ITS FOOD, WHICH IS US, IS TO WORK ON THE LITTLE BIT STRONGER ONES AND THE LITTLE BIT STRONGER AFTER THAT.

THE ONLY WAY WE CAN FIGHT THAT IS THROUGH VACCINATION AND THE GREAT NEWS IS THE VACCINES ARE STILL WORKING.

THE HORRIFIC NEWS IS THAT IF WE ALLOW THESE MUTATIONS TO KEEP BUILDING, WE'RE GOING TO GIVE THE VIRUS MORE AND MORE CHANCE -- THINK OF PLAYING THE LOTTERY.

WE'RE GIVING THE VIRUS AND VIRUS MORE CHANCES TO PLAY THE LOTTERY AND TO HIT THE WINNING NUMBER THAT NOW ALLOWS IT TO BREAK INTO VACCINATED POPULATIONS.

THEN WE'RE IN NEW TROUBLE.

>> JUST ONE QUICK FOLLOW-UP, DR. KINCH.

SO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LISTENING, WHO ARE THINKING, OH, I'VE HAD MY BOOSTER, I'M GOLDEN, I DON'T HAVE TO WEAR A MASK, I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT THE COUNTY COUNCIL JUST DID.

PLEASE ADDRESS THAT MINDSET.

>> IF YOU'RE VACCINATED, YOU CAN STILL CARRY THE VIRUS.

YOU WON'T CARRY IT AS LONG, YOU WON'T MAKE NEARLY AS MUCH VIRUS AS UNVACCINATED PERSON.

SO IF YOU USE MY LOTTERY ANALOGY, YOU'RE CREATING FEWER LOTTERY TICKETS.

HOWEVER, YOU ARE CREATING LOTTERY TICKETS AND YOU WILL SPREAD THOSE BY NOT WEARING A MASK.

I'VE BEEN KIND OF PREACHING THIS FOR MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF NOW, WHICH IS THAT WE BLEW IT ON MASKS IN OUR COMMUNICATING WITH MASKS.

MASKS ARE NOT TO KEEP YOU SAFE.

MASKS ARE KEEP THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU SAFE.

AND SO IF YOU TRULY CARE ABOUT YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, YOUR COMMUNITY, WEAR A MASK.

IT'S THE MOST SELFLESS THING THAT YOU CAN DO.

THE DECISION NOT TO WEAR A MASK IS, I WOULD ARGUE, ABOUT THE MOST SELFISH THING YOU CAN POSSIBLY DO.

>> ALL RIGHT.

NOW I HAD READ, I DON'T KNOW, A MONTH OR SO AGO, THERE'S WORK BEING DONE ON A -- SOME TYPE OF VACCINE THAT YOU CAN JUST TAKE ORALLY.

VACCINE PILL OR WHATEVER.

I DON'T KNOW HOW BIG A PERCENTAGE THERE WILL BE OF PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T WANT TO GET A SHOT, JUST HATE GETTING SHOTS, OKAY?

AND IF THERE WERE A PILL, DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WOULD BRING ANY KIND OF SIZEABLE POPULATION OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE?

JUST TAKE IT, JUST TAKE THE FRIGGIN' PILL AND BE DONE WITH IT.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD HELP?

>> I DON'T.

IT'S A KIND OF RELIGIOUS CONVICTION, PLUS WE HAVE AN EXPERIENCE WITH THAT.

A COMPANY I USED TO BE INVOLVED WITH CALLED INTRA-MUNE.

THEY MADE A NASAL VACCINATION.

IT DIDN'T CHANGE THE BAR AS FAR AS PEOPLE WHO GET FLU VACCINATION.

I DON'T THINK A PILL WOULD DO THAT.

WHAT IT WOULD BE USEFUL FOR WOULD BE TO GET TO ALL THE UNDERSERVE POPULATIONS IN SOUTHEAST ASIA, SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA, IT WOULD HELP GET THOSE FOLKS VACCINATED, AND SOME DAY WHEN WE GET THE REST OF THE WORLD, MOST OF THE SEVEN BILLION VACCINATED, WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO A RECKONING THAT THOSE WHO CHOOSE NOT TO GET VACCINATED ARE THE VACCINE FARM THAT ARE CREATING -- OR THE VIRUS MUTATION, EXCUSE ME, THE VIRUS FARMS THAT ARE CREATING THE VIRUS MUTATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO LEAD TO THE NEXT VARIANT AND UNTIL WE NIP THAT IN THE BUD, THIS IS GOING TO BE -- UNFORTUNATELY, I'M GOING TO BE ON IN SIX MONTHS AND A YEAR AND A YEAR AND A HALF.

AND NO ONE WANTS TO SEE THIS FACE ANYMORE ON TV.

>> WE'RE VERY GRATEFUL TO THAT FACE FOR SHARING ALL THIS HELPFUL INFORMATION.

THERE HAS BEEN ANOTHER, AT LEAST ONLINE SOCIAL MEDIA SITUATION THAT YOU'RE SEEING WHERE PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT THE THROAT IS NOW -- OR THE THROAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED RATHER THAN THE NASAL TESTING, SWABBING THE THROAT.

ARE YOU EVEN AWARE OF THAT?

I MEAN, DOES THAT HAVE ANY VALIDITY?

>> I'M NOT AND SO I CAN'T ATTEST EITHER WAY TO ITS VALIDITY, BUT IT DOES RAISE AN IMPORTANT POINT THAT SOCIAL MEDIA IS THE WORLD'S WORST SOURCE OF INFORMATION ABOUT ANYTHING THAT IS SCIENCE-BASED OR OBJECTIVE BECAUSE, UNFORTUNATELY, THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE TO MAKE MONEY AND MOST OF THEM ARE FINDING WAYS TO DO SO WHY CREATING SOME WHACKY THINGS.

SO I DON'T KNOW SPECIFICALLY IF THAT'S ACCURATE OR NOT.

>> BUT YOU DID SAY THAT THE INVOLVEMENT IN THE LUNGS, THAT YOU'RE SEEING WITH OMICRON, IS VERY DIFFERENT.

HOW?

>> THE INVOLVEMENT IN THE LUNGS APPEARS TO BE HIGHER UP IN THE LUNG AS OPPOSED TO DEEPER IN THE LUNG.

NOW ON, THE ONE HAND THAT'S GREAT NEWS BECAUSE DEEPER IN THE LUNG TENDS TO GIVE A MORE SEVERE INFECTION.

THE PROBLEM WITH THE HIGHER IN THE LUNG IS IT INCREASES THE TRANSMISSIBILITY BECAUSE IT'S EASIER FOR THE VIRUS TO GET TO HIGHER IN THE LUNG, SO THERE'S A CORRELATION THERE.

BUT AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE IT'S LESS SEVERE DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING TO DIE.

AND IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED, YOU ARE AT VERY HIGH RISK OF BEING HOSPITALIZED OR DYING OR GETTING LONG COVID OR ANY NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS.

IT'S ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT WE KNOW FROM OTHER CORONAVIRUSES, ABOUT 16% OF THE COMMON COLD, WHAT WE CALL THE COMMON COLD IS A CORONAVIRUS INFECTION.

YOU CAN BE INFECTED BY THAT VIRUS YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR.

YOUR IMMUNITY IS VERY SHORT-TERM.

SO FOLKS WHO ARE WALKING AROUND SAYING I HAD COVID BACK IN, YOU KNOW, JUNE OF 2020, I'M CLEAN NOW, YOU KNOW, I CAN PROTECT MYSELF.

NOT BASED ON HISTORY, NOT BASED ON FACT.

YOU'RE JUST AS SUSCEPTIBLE AS YOU WERE IN JUNE OF 2020.

>> WE HAVE LESS THAN TWO MINUTES LEFT.

BRING US SOME GOOD NEWS, DR. KINCH.

IS THERE ANY, AS WE CLOSE IT OUT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE BEST NEWS IS THE VACCINES WORK.

WE WERE GIVEN A GIFT THAT IS KEEPING MILLIONS, BILLIONS OF PEOPLE ALIVE AND HEALTHY THAT OTHERWISE MIGHT NOT BE SO HEALTHY AND MIGHT NOT BE ALIVE.

THAT IS THE BEST NEWS -- IF YOU HAD TOLD ME IN MARCH OF 2020 THAT WE WOULD HAVE A VACCINE THAT, EVEN AFTER ALL THESE VARIANTS, WAS STILL WORKING THIS WAY, I WOULD HAVE SAID NO WAY, THERE'S NOT A CHANCE IN THE WORLD WE WOULD GET THAT LUCKY.

WE CAN'T FORGET THAT.

THAT'S THE KEY TAKEAWAY FROM ALL OF THIS IS WE MOBILIZED AND IT WORKED.

THE BAD NEWS IS, WE RUN THE RISK OF SQUANDERING IT AND WE SHOULDN'T SQUANDER THIS INCREDIBLE GIFT, THIS BLESSING THAT WE'VE BEEN GIVEN.

>> SO IT COULD BE A LOT WORSE.

>> IT WOULD BE INFINITELY WORSE THAN IT IS.

>> SHOULD WE BE BACK IN OUR BUBBLE?

>> THAT'S A PERSONAL DECISION.

IF YOU'VE BEEN VACCINATED AND YOU DON'T NEED TO BE OUTSIDE OR BE AMONGST OTHER PEOPLE, I WOULDN'T BE.

>> OKAY.

WELL, DR. KINCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.