♪ MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

I'M DAVID DUMKE.

TODAY WE ARE JOINED BY DR. BRUCE WILSON.

DR. WILSON IS A PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CENTRAL FLORIDA.

HE IS AN EXPERT ON LATIN AMERICA, SPECIFICALLY IN COSTA RICA, AS WELL AS LEGAL RIGHTS IN THE COUNTRIES OF LATIN AMERICA.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, DR. WILSON.

>>THANK YOU.

>>SO WE'RE HAVING YOU ON TODAY TO DISCUSS THE BOOK YOU ARE CO-EDITOR OF, WHICH IS CALLED WATER RIGHTS AND WATER DISPUTES IN COSTA RICA.

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THE BOOK, AND HERE IT IS FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>>THE BOOK IS PART OF A MUCH LARGER PROJECT THAT EXAMINES THE IMPACT OF CREATING A HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER.

I MEAN, IN SOCIAL SCIENCE, IT'S OFTEN GOOD TO HAVE A EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN.

SO IN THIS CASE, WE HAVE ALL THE YEARS BEFORE 2010 WHEN THE HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER WAS CREATED, THEN YOU HAVE ALL THE YEARS AFTER.

SO THIS PARTICULAR BOOK EXAMINES THE CASE OF COSTA RICA, WHICH IS A VERY, VERY HIGH PERFORMER IN PROVIDING ACCESS TO PORTABLE, ACCESSIBLE, AFFORDABLE WATER, AND TO SEE WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS INSIDE THE COUNTRY BECAUSE AT THE AGGREGATE LEVEL, WHEN YOU LOOK AT AGGREGATE DATA, IT LOOKS REALLY, REALLY IMPRESSIVE.

IT'S ONE OF THE BEST IN THE WHOLE OF THE AMERICAS.

BUT IT TURNS OUT ONCE YOU START DRILLING DOWN, THEN IT STARTS TO LOOK A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

>>SO I WANT TO ASK ABOUT SOME OF THE DIFFERENCES YOU JUST MENTIONED A LITTLE LATER IN THE INTERVIEW, BUT I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT COSTA RICA, SPECIFICALLY COSTA RICA'S REPUTATION FOR GOVERNANCE IS PRETTY STRONG AS WELL AS HAVING A ROBUST LEGAL SYSTEM.

SO TELL US HOW THAT COMPARES WITH SOME OF ITS NEIGHBORS IN OTHER GLOBAL COUNTRIES.

>>SO THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK COSTA RICA IS NOT UNIQUE.

PEOPLE SEEM TO THINK IT IS.

IT'S NOT.

IT'S UNIQUE IN SOME ASPECTS.

THERE'S NO STANDING ARMY, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT THAT'S ALSO NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY.

PANAMA DOESN'T HAVE A STANDING ARMY.

BUT WHAT THEY DID HAVE IN THE 1949 CONSTITUTION WAS THIS COMMITMENT TO DEMOCRACY AND THE COMMITMENT TO THE RULE OF LAW.

AND SO IF YOU READ THROUGH THE 1949 CONSTITUTION, THE CURRENT CONSTITUTION, WHAT YOU SEE IS A NUMBER OF INSTITUTIONS THAT CAN CONTROL HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED, THE POLITICAL GAME.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, ELECTIONS ARE CONTROLLED BY A SEPARATE ELECTION COMMISSION, AND THAT COMMISSION IS TWICE REMOVED FROM THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

THAT IS, THE MEMBERS ARE ELECTED BY THE SUPREME COURT, AND THE SUPREME COURT IS ELECTED BY A TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY OF THE CONGRESS.

SO THERE'S A TWO-TIER REMOVAL, AND THIS INSTITUTION CONTROLS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH ELECTIONS, VOTE COUNTING, BALLOT DESIGN, FUNDING OF POLITICAL PARTIES, REGISTRATION OF VOTERS, THE REGISTRATION OF DEATHS, OF BIRTHS, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH AN ELECTION.

>>AND THEN DURING THE ACTUAL ELECTION PROCESS, THE THREE WEEKS BEFORE OR SIX WEEKS BEFORE, AND THREE WEEKS AFTER, THEY CONTROL EVERYTHING.

NO LAWS COULD BE CHANGED, NOTHING, JUSTICE.

SO IT'S LIKE AN ELECTION COURT THAT DEALS WITH EVERYTHING.

ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS ABOUT THAT IS WHEN ELECTIONS BECOME REALLY, REALLY CLOSE AND REALLY HARD FOUGHT, THE LOSER USUALLY BACKS AWAY IMMEDIATELY AND CONCEDES DEFEAT BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THE ACTUAL PROCESS HAS BEEN CONSISTENT AND HAS BEEN FAIR.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE ASPECT THAT'S REPEATED IN OTHER AREAS OF COSTA RICAN POLITICS THAT ALLOWS THE STABILITY IN A WAY THAT OTHER COUNTRIES PERHAPS DON'T.

>>WHEN WE WERE TALKING BEFORE THE INTERVIEW, YOU HAD MENTIONED ABOUT THE UNIQUE ROLE THOUGH OF COSTA RICA'S JUDICIARY IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.

COULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO THE VIEWERS?

>>SO FROM 1949 WITH A NEW CONSTITUTION TILL 1989, THE COURTS PLAYED VERY, VERY LITTLE ROLE.

THE EQUIVALENT WOULD BE THE VERY EARLY YEARS OF THE US SUPREME COURT, WHERE THEY STAND ON THE SIDELINES.

1989, THE CONSTITUTION CHANGED WITH A SINGLE LINE SAYING THERE SHALL BE A CONSTITUTIONAL COURT.

THAT CONSTITUTIONAL COURT HAS THE POWER TO REVIEW ALL LAWS BEFORE THEY BECOME LAWS AND AFTER THEY BECOME LAWS.

IT ALSO CAN BE USED AS A COURT OF FIRST INSTANCE FOR ANYBODY IN THE COUNTRY WITHOUT A LAWYER, WITHOUT FEES, WITHOUT ANYTHING, TO FILE A CASE WHEN THEY THINK THAT THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN SOMEHOW IMPINGED EITHER BY A STATE PARTY OR A PRIVATE PARTY.

SO WHAT YOU SEE HAPPEN IS THE ACTUAL CASELOAD OF THE COURT INCREASES FROM, WELL, ZERO IN 1989 WHEN IT'S CREATED.

THE FOLLOWING YEAR, IT'S AROUND ABOUT 1,000, THEN IT GOES TO TWO.

>>CURRENTLY THEY GET AROUND ABOUT 25,000 CASES PER YEAR AND THEY RESOLVE 25,000 CASES PER YEAR.

SO IT'S A DIFFERENT SORT OF AVENUE.

WHEN YOU THINK THAT YOUR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN IMPINGED, YOU HAVE AN ACCESS, YOU HAVE THIS LEGAL OPPORTUNITY STRUCTURE THAT YOU CAN TAKE YOUR CASE TO WITHOUT ACTUALLY EVEN UNDERSTANDING THE NITTY-GRITTY OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL POINT YOU'RE MAKING.

THEY HAVE PEOPLE AT THE COURT WHO WILL DECIDE OR HELP YOU DETERMINE WHAT THAT CASE ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE.

MAKES IT FREE, OPEN 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, 52 WEEKS A YEAR.

AND THE ACTUAL DECISIONS ARE RENDERED RELATIVELY QUICKLY.

SO THIS ADDS A WHOLE DIFFERENT DIMENSION, WHICH IS ALSO RELEVANT FOR THE WATER CASES BECAUSE THEN YOU HAVE LOTS OF SPECIFIC CASES ABOUT YOU PERSONALLY THAT YOU CAN TAKE TO THE COURT AND HAVE IT ADJUDICATED.

>>SO TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THE PROCESS AS WATER AS A HUMAN RIGHT AS IT'S ENFORCED IN COSTA RICA.

>>SO WATER AS A HUMAN RIGHT, MOST PEOPLE THINK IT HAS BEEN THERE SINCE THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL AGREEMENT ON HUMAN RIGHTS BACK IN THE 1940S.

BUT IT HASN'T.

IT DIDN'T ACTUALLY APPEAR AS A HUMAN RIGHT UNTIL 2010 AS A STANDALONE RIGHT AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

AND BEFORE THAT, IT HAD INDIRECTLY, IT WAS DEEMED TO BE A RIGHT, BUT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY ENFORCEABLE.

PLUS, INTERNATIONAL LAW AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAW IS QUITE SOFT.

BUT IN THE CASE OF COSTA RICA, WHEN THE COSTA RICAN GOVERNMENT SIGNS ON TO AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY, SUCH AS THE INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER AND SANITATION, THEN IT SUPERSEDES ANY OTHER RIGHT IN THE CONSTITUTION.

SO IF THERE'S A RIGHT ALREADY ON X, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S BIGGER THAN X, THEN IT BECOMES THE NEW NORMAL.

AND YOU CAN USE THAT TO LITIGATE IN THE COUNTRY.

>>EVEN BEFORE THE RIGHT WAS AN INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHT, THE COSTA RICA COURT HAD DETERMINED THAT THERE WAS ALREADY A RIGHT IN THE CONSTITUTION.

IT WASN'T ACTUALLY TECHNICALLY IN THE CONSTITUTION UNTIL 2020, 10 YEARS AFTER THE UNITED NATIONS ONE.

BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT THEY WOULD SAY, "WELL, THE RIGHT TO WATER IS DETERMINED BY THE RIGHT TO HEALTH, THE RIGHT TO SOCIAL SECURITY, THE RIGHT TO A CLEAN ENVIRONMENT."

YOU WEAVE ALL THESE TOGETHER AND THE OTHER INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THEN YOU END UP WITH THIS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO WATER IN COSTA RICA.

>>LET ME ASK YOU.

UNITED STATES, OBVIOUSLY YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GO TO COURT AND SAY, "MY HUMAN RIGHTS ARE BEING VIOLATED BECAUSE I'M NOT ABLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO WATER UP TO CERTAIN STANDARDS."

I THINK OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, FLINT, MICHIGAN, WHERE I'M ACTUALLY FROM MICHIGAN, SO I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE CASE.

HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT IN OTHER COUNTRIES?

I MEAN, SO YOU HAVE THE UNITED STATES CASE.

WHAT ABOUT WESTERN EUROPE, ELSEWHERE?

>>SO WESTERN EUROPE HAS BEEN A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS PROGRESSING THROUGH THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.

AND AGAIN, THAT'S A DIFFERENT BODY IN THE US.

SO IT IS AN INTERESTING CASE BECAUSE THE US DIDN'T SIGN ON TO THE UNITED NATIONS HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER.

AND THEY GENERALLY DON'T SIGN ON...

THEY DON'T RATIFY THOSE AGREEMENTS EVEN WHEN THEY DO SIGN THEM.

SO IN THE US, IT'S MEANT TO BE THE SENATE THAT WOULD RATIFY THESE AGREEMENTS.

THEY GENERALLY WILL NOT.

THE FLINT, MICHIGAN ONE, WHAT'S INTERESTING, AS YOU POINTED OUT, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY CLAIM A HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER AND LITIGATE ON THAT, ALTHOUGH SOME HAVE.

BUT GENERALLY THE JUDGE WILL SAY, "WELL, YOU MAY BE RIGHT IN SOME SORT OF PERFECT WORLD, BUT THIS IS NOT A JUSTICIABLE RIGHT IN THE UNITED STATES."

BUT WHAT IS INTERESTING IS IT'S STILL USED IN THE UNITED STATES.

PEOPLE IN FLINT, MICHIGAN, IN PROTESTING INDUSTRIES, OR IN LOBBYING POLITICIANS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, THE STATE LEVEL, OR THE NATIONAL LEVEL, USE THE LANGUAGE OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND IT MIGHT NOT BE THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE THAT WAS ACTUALLY WRITTEN INTO THE HUMAN RIGHT, BUT HAS A CERTAIN POWER.

MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE THAT IF A HUMAN RIGHT IS BEING ABUSED, THEN CLEARLY SOMETHING IS REALLY BADLY WRONG.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHY IT'S STILL QUITE EFFECTIVE EVEN IN THE UNITED STATES, AND PARTICULARLY ACTUALLY IN THE FLINT, MICHIGAN ONE, NOT IN THE LEGAL CASES, BUT IN THE COURT OF POPULAR OPINION, YOU CAN STILL USE THIS LANGUAGE VERY EFFECTIVELY.

>>I MEAN, THE COURT OF POPULAR OPINION, THAT ONLY CARRIES YOU SO FAR UNLESS YOU HAVE A POLITICIANS AND DECISION-MAKERS ARE SUSCEPTIBLE OBVIOUSLY TO PUBLIC OPINION, BUT THAT WOULD BE THE RECOURSE, NOT A LEGAL ONE.

>>ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, IT'S A POLITICAL TOOL.

AND YOU SEE THIS AS WELL IN COSTA RICA.

SO A LOT OF DISPUTES ABOUT WATER DON'T END UP IN THE COURTS.

THERE ARE FAMOUS ONES THAT DO, AND OFTENTIMES IT PITS ONE SET OF RIGHTS AGAINST ANOTHER SET OF RIGHTS.

SO A FAMOUS CASE IN COSTA RICA LOOKS AT THE RIGHT OF ECONOMIC WELLBEING AGAINST THE RIGHT OF A CLEAN, HEALTHY ENVIRONMENT AND ACCESS TO WATER.

SO THE CASE REVOLVED AROUND DEVELOPERS WANTING TO BUILD NEW HOTELS IN A FAIRLY ARID PART OF COSTA RICA UP IN [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO WAS THEY'D FOUND A SOURCE FOR THE WATER, AND THEY WERE GOING TO USE AN AQUEDUCT TO TAKE IT FROM THERE TO WHERE THESE HOTELS AND PRIVATE VILLAS WERE GOING TO BE BUILT.

THE LOCALS WHO LIVED WHERE THE WATER WAS QUITE PLENTIFUL WERE NOT QUITE SO HAPPY ABOUT THIS.

AND THE COURT ULTIMATELY READ THAT THE RIGHT TO WATER OF THE PEOPLE IN THE LOCAL AREA OUTWEIGHED THE RIGHT OF THE DEVELOPERS TO BUILD THESE PARTICULAR HOTELS AND STUFF.

>>HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER EXAMPLES WHERE, IS IT GENERALLY THE RULE THAT THE HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER IN COSTA RICA WINS OVER OTHER RIGHTS?

>>SOMETIMES.

AND THIS IS WHERE IT GETS A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED, A LOT MORE DIFFICULT.

SO A LOT OF RIGHTS THAT ARE FILED ABOUT WATER DON'T EVEN MENTION WATER, AT LEAST THEY DON'T MENTION THE HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER OR A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO WATER.

AND THERE'S A REASON FOR THIS.

IT'S LIKE, WHEN YOU FILE A CASE, THERE'S ONLY ONE COURT TO GO TO.

THAT'S THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT.

AND YOU WANT TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO WIN.

WELL, THE BEST WAY TO WIN IS TO FIND A SIMILAR CASE THAT'S ALREADY BEEN ADJUDICATED.

AND THE LANGUAGE IN THOSE EARLIER CASES CERTAINLY WON'T MENTION A HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST.

AND SO WHAT PEOPLE OFTEN WILL DO IS THEY'LL FIND OTHER ONES AND SAY, "WELL, THIS ONE WON.

IT'S ABOUT HOUSING."

SO MANY WATER CASES ARE ACTUALLY ABOUT HOUSING BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT ACCESS TO WATER AND YOU WANT TO HAVE IT IN YOUR HOUSE.

AND SO THEY BECOME ACTUALLY ABOUT HOUSING.

AND SO YOU'D LOOK AT MAYBE THAT CASE AND FILE ON THAT BASIS.

AND THE GOAL THERE IS YOU WANT TO LOOK AT WHICH CASES ARE GOING TO BE THE MOST BENEFICIAL.

AND THE FUNNY THING, WHEN WE STARTED THIS PARTICULAR PROJECT, WE HAD A STAKEHOLDERS MEETING OF AROUND ABOUT 20-SOME PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE WATER RIGHT OF WATER, EITHER PROVIDERS OR ACTIVISTS IN COSTA RICA.

AND SO THE FIRST QUESTION I ASKED HIM WAS, "WELL, THE HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER, WAS IT IMPORTANT?"

ABSOLUTELY.

ALMOST UNIVERSALLY, THEY SAID, "ABSOLUTELY, FUNDAMENTALLY IMPORTANT."

"SO DO YOU USE IT WHEN YOU PROTEST OR WHEN YOU LITIGATE?"

THEY GO, "WELL, NO."

AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE IT'S NOT MEANINGFUL.

MAYBE IN THIS PARTICULAR CONTEXT, IT HOLDS LESS WEIGHT BECAUSE THEY HAVE OTHER TOOLS.

>>IS THAT BECAUSE OF LEGAL PRECEDENT AND THIS IS A RELATIVELY NEW, I THINK THAT'S NOT IRRELEVANT.

I MEAN, IF I WERE GOING TO LITIGATE, I WOULD BE LOOKING FOR CASES THAT WERE SIMILAR TO MY OWN CASE.

AND THEN WHAT LANGUAGE DID THEY USE?

WHAT RIGHTS DID THEY USE?

AND THEN USE THE SAME LANGUAGE, WHICH IS ALSO IRONIC BECAUSE IN LATIN AMERICAN COURT SYSTEMS, PRECEDENT DIDN'T USED TO MEAN ANYTHING.

AND NOW IT MEANS QUITE A LOT.

>>WANT TO ASK YOU A LITTLE ABOUT THE FUNDING FOR THIS PROJECT.

WHY LOOK AT WATER AS A HUMAN RIGHT IN COSTA RICA?

>>SO THE PROJECT ITSELF LOOKS AT NINE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES ON FOUR DIFFERENT CONTINENTS.

THE COSTA RICAN ONE IS A SUBSET OF THOSE.

THE REASON THAT IT'S FRAMED IN THE WAY IT IS, IS AGAIN, IT GOES BACK TO THIS QUESTION ABOUT IT BEING AN EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN ALMOST THAT WE WERE LOOKING AT.

WHEN WE WROTE THE GRANT FROM THE NORWEGIAN RESEARCH COUNCIL, IT WAS JUST OVER 10 YEARS SINCE THE RIGHT HAD BEEN INITIATED.

AND SO WE'RE LOOKING AT, "WELL, WE HAVE 10 YEARS OF THIS PARTICULAR RIGHT.

HOW EFFECTIVE HAS IT BEEN?"

AND WE'RE NOT INTERESTED NECESSARILY AT HOW EFFECTIVE HAS IT BEEN FOR WEALTHY PEOPLE OR EVEN ON THE AGGREGATE.

WE WERE ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN A CERTAIN SUBSET OF PEOPLE, THE ONES WHO WOULD OFTEN NEED RIGHTS LANGUAGE OR HUMAN RIGHTS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES.

AND THAT'S THE MOST MARGINALIZED PEOPLE.

SO ONE PART OF THE PROJECT LOOKS AT INDIA, FOR EXAMPLE, AND LOOKS AT WHAT THEY CALL THE SLUM AREAS, ABOUT HOW MARGINALIZED PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO USE THIS RIGHT TO PUSH LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND COURTS TO GRANT THEM ACCESS TO WATER.

SOUTH AFRICA, THERE ARE FAMOUS CASES WHERE POOR PEOPLE HAD USED HOUSING RIGHTS AND WATER RIGHTS TO GAIN ACCESS TO WATER EVEN WHEN THEY CAN'T PAY, WHICH IS ANOTHER REASON [INAUDIBLE] PEOPLE THINK THAT BECAUSE IT'S A HUMAN RIGHT, IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY COST TO IT.

WELL, THE LANGUAGE IS A LITTLE VAGUER THAN THAT IN WRITING HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND THAT IT YOU COMPLY WITH THE RIGHT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU ARE ABLE.

SO IT'S ALL SORTS OF GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARDS FOR GOVERNMENTS.

AND SO THE PROJECT THEN WAS INTERESTED IN HOW DOES THIS AFFECT MARGINALIZED PEOPLE?

AND THAT'S WHY WE LOOKED AT THE COSTA RICA ONE BECAUSE THIS IS THE CASE WHERE IT'S ONE OF THE BEST PERFORMERS IN THE WORLD.

AND WE WANTED TO KNOW, "WELL, WHAT DID THEY DO THAT MADE IT SO SUCCESSFUL?

AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE EITHER IN GEOGRAPHIC AREAS THAT ARE POORLY SERVED OR ARE IN INCOME LEVELS THAT CAN'T ACTUALLY AFFORD ACCESS?"

AND THAT'S HOW WE ENDED UP WITH THIS PARTICULAR CASE STUDY.

AND SINCE I'VE WORKED IN COSTA RICA FOR 30 YEARS, I KNOW A LOT OF THE ACADEMICS WHO WORK IN THIS AREA.

AND SO THE GOAL WAS ALSO TO END SOME OF THIS HELICOPTERING WHERE THE NORTHERN ACADEMIC WOULD COME DOWN TO A LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRY OR AN AFRICAN COUNTRY, HAVE THE LOCALS DO THE WORK AND THEN PUBLISH IT UNDER THEIR OWN NAME.

SO THIS WAS VERY CLEARLY AN ATTEMPT TO REVERSE THAT.

ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE BOOK WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MYSELF AND A POSTDOC ARE COSTA RICAN ACADEMICS, EITHER SENIOR ACADEMICS OR JUNIOR PEOPLE.

AND THIS IS THEIR STORY MORE THAN MINE.

I JUST HAPPENED TO BE THE PERSON THAT COULD PULL IT TOGETHER.

>>SO I WANT TO GET BACK TO COSTA RICA IN A SECOND, BUT YOU MENTIONED NINE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES BEING STUDIED.

HOW DOES COSTA RICA STACK UP AGAINST THE OTHER COUNTRIES YOU'VE STUDIED AND WHERE ARE SOME OF THE MORE GLARING DEFICIENCIES, IF YOU WILL, IN TERMS OF HAVING THIS HUMAN RIGHT ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE?

>>I THINK SOME OF THE ONES WHERE IT'S BEEN, OKAY, SO IN TERMS OF WHERE DOES IT STACK, COSTA RICA'S AT THE VERY, VERY TOP.

IN THE LAST 15 YEARS, COSTA RICA WENT FROM SOMETHING LIKE 94% ACCESS TO CLEAN, PORTABLE, BASIC WATER, TO 99 POINT SOMETHING, WHICH IS THE SAME AS WESTERN EUROPE, AS AUSTRALIA, AS NEW ZEALAND, CANADA.

SO IN THAT SENSE, IT IMPROVED IN THE LAST 15 YEARS, AND IT'S INCREDIBLY HIGH.

IN OTHER CASES LIKE INDIA, IT'S NOT SO GOOD.

WE ALSO HAVE A CASE STUDY FROM COLUMBIA, FROM BRAZIL, FROM PERU.

AND THESE ARE COUNTRIES THAT ARE SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.

WE HAVE OTHER CASE STUDIES THAT ARE ACTUALLY, WELL, THEY'RE NOT CASE STUDIES.

THEY'RE LARGE END STUDIES WHERE YOU TAKE THE DATA FROM THE ENTIRE WORLD AND YOU RUN THE DATA TO FIGURE OUT, "WELL, WHAT IS IT THAT ARE THE DETERMINANTS OF WHEN PEOPLE GET ACCESS TO WATER?"

AND THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF LITERATURE ABOUT, "WELL, YOU NEED TO HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT IN THE CONSTITUTION."

TURNS OUT THAT'S NOT QUITE SO IMPORTANT.

NUMBER ONE, IMPORTANT IS YOU HAVE TO BE RICH.

COSTA RICA IS NOT THAT RICH.

SO THERE ARE CASES WHERE IT CAN BE ACHIEVED WITHOUT BEING REALLY RICH.

>>SO WHAT ARE THE KEYS TO COSTA RICA'S RELATIVE SUCCESS?

>>AGAIN, AT THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL, DEMOCRACY IS NOT A DRIVER, SURPRISINGLY ENOUGH.

WE ACTUALLY THOUGHT [INAUDIBLE] WHICH JUST SUGGESTED IT IS.

BUT LOCAL DEMOCRACY, EVEN IN DICTATORSHIPS, IS IMPORTANT, IN PART, I THINK BECAUSE WATER IS A LOCALLY PROVIDED PROVISIONED RESOURCE.

SO WHERE YOU HAVE COMPETITIVE LOCAL DEMOCRACIES AND ACCESS TENDS TO IMPROVE, EVEN IN DICTATORSHIPS, AND EVEN IN POOR COUNTRIES.

WHEN THEY WROTE THE CONSTITUTION 1949, THEY TALK ABOUT WATER THERE AND THEY TALK ABOUT IT IN THE SAME SORTS OF TERMS THAT PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS TALK ABOUT IT.

WATER'S NOT A COMMODITY LIKE IT IS IN CHILE, FOR EXAMPLE.

EVERYTHING IN CHILE IS PRIVATIZED, BE IT THE ACTUAL RESOURCE ITSELF UNDERGROUND, THE PROVISION OF WATER, THE SALE OF WATER, IS ALL PRIVATE.

COSTA RICA, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE ALLOWED TO DELIVER WATER AND THEY'RE ALLOWED TO MAKE A SMALL PROFIT, BUT THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO CHARGE THE MARKET RATE, SO TO SPEAK.

SO THEY CAN COVER THE COSTS AND A SMALL AMOUNT, BUT THAT'S IT.

SO ALL THIS WAS AT THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING.

COSTA RICA ALSO HISTORICALLY HAS BEEN A WATER-ABUNDANT COUNTRY.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS CHANGING NOW, WHICH IS PART OF WHAT WE DEAL WITH IN THIS BOOK, IS THAT A LOT OF THE WATER IS AQUIFER WATER IN COSTA RICA, AND THE AQUIFER REQUIRES THE RAINY SEASON.

SO IN COSTA RICA, YOU HAVE TWO SEASONS.

THAT YOU HAVE THE RAINY SEASON AND A DRY SEASON.

BUT IN THE RECENT DECADES, THE RAINY SEASON IS GETTING LESS AND LESS RAINY AND THE DRY SEASON IS GETTING DRIER AND DRIER, WHICH MEANS THAT THE WATER SUPPLIES ARE GETTING LOWER AND LOWER.

AND THIS AFFECTS NOT JUST WATER PER SE, WATER PROVISION, BUT ALSO AFFECTS THINGS LIKE POWER GENERATION, SINCE MOST ELECTRICITY POWER IN COSTA RICA IS EITHER HYDRO OR GEOTHERMAL.

THE HYDRO LAKES DECLINE, THEN YOU DON'T GET AS MUCH POWER.

AND SO WATER PROVISION, THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF WATER THAT'S THERE THAT THEY CAN THEN PROVIDE HAS DECLINED.

AND THAT'S PART OF- >>IS THIS CLIMATE CHANGE CAUSED?

>>YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND THEY KNOW THIS IS HAPPENING.

AND I THINK THE CLOSER YOU ARE TO THE TROPICS, THE MORE APPARENT THIS BECOMES BECAUSE EVEN 30 YEARS AGO, WHEN I FIRST WENT TO COSTA RICA, AND THIS WAS REALLY, REALLY HEAVY RAINS IN THE RAINY SEASON, AND THERE WAS ABUNDANCE OF WATER.

AND NOW THAT IS JUST NOT THE CASE, WHICH CAUSED SOME RECENT LEGAL CASES IN COSTA RICA DURING THE COVID PERIOD BECAUSE THE STATE WAS SAYING, "THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO COMBAT COVID.

YOU HAVE TO WASH YOUR HANDS.

YOU HAVE TO DO THIS.

YOU HAVE TO DO THAT."

AND THEN IT TURNS OUT THAT THE WATER PROVISION AUTHORITIES DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH WATER.

AND SO THEY WERE CUTTING OFF BARRIERS, ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS SAYING, "OKAY.

BETWEEN 7:00 IN THE MORNING AND 9:00 AT NIGHT, THERE'LL BE NO WATER," WHICH MEANS THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN MEET THAT.

SO THESE ARE THE SORTS OF PROBLEMS THAT ARE BECOMING CLEARER AS CLIMATE CHANGE COMES ALONG, AND OTHER CHANGES OF COURSE, THAT ARE MORE COSTA RICAN, THAT THEY COULD CHANGE THEMSELVES.

FOR EXAMPLE, POPULATION GROWTH IN THE 1940S WAS AROUND ABOUT 700,000 PEOPLE IN COSTA RICA.

AND HERE WE ARE NOW, WHATEVER THAT IS, 80 YEARS LATER, AND IT'S 5 MILLION PEOPLE.

AND IT USED TO BE LARGELY RURAL POPULATION.

AND NOW IT'S 80% ARE URBAN.

60% LIVE IN THIS SMALL AREA AND THE [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] AROUND SAN JOSE [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] THAT'S PROBLEMATIC.

SO YOU SHIFT FROM A RURAL POPULATION TO AN URBAN POPULATION.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND THE BOOK ARGUES THAT INFRASTRUCTURE HAS BEEN LEFT TO, IT HASN'T BEEN INVESTED IN THE SAME WAY AS OTHER THINGS BECAUSE IT'S NOT AS IMMEDIATELY APPARENT THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM.

THIS IS WHY EVEN LIKE MEXICO, THE PIPING APPARENTLY LOSES 40% OF ALL WATER THAT GOES INTO IT.

SO YOU WANT TO FIX THE PROBLEM IN MEXICO, YOU FIX THE PIPES.

FIXING PIPES IS SUPER EXPENSIVE.

AND SO THAT'S ONE OF THESE OTHER PROBLEMS IN COSTA RICA, THE NATURE OF THE ECONOMY CHANGES.

SO YOU HAVE MORE AGRO EXPORT TYPE THINGS AND INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTS, OR MINING.

MINING IS A DISASTER FOR THIS.

SO SOME MINES, SOME PINEAPPLE PRODUCTION FOR EXAMPLE, IS TOO CLOSE TO THE RIVER SOURCES.

SO THEY CONTAMINATE THE SOURCE.

MINES, THEY USE FOREVER CHEMICALS LIKE ARSENIC, ET CETERA, THAT WHEN THEY GET IN THE WATER, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY GET THEM BACK OUT.

SO THESE ARE OTHER SORTS OF PROBLEMS AS PART OF THE ECONOMIC GROWTH OF THE COUNTRY.

>>APPLICABILITY IN ARID COUNTRIES.

I MEAN, THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT ALREADY HAVE WATER SHORTAGES, EXTREME IN SOME CASES, THAT ARE CAUSED NOT JUST BY CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT BY MISUSE.

AND I'M THINKING SPECIFICALLY, LOOK AT THE HORN OF AFRICA OR YEMEN OR SAUDI ARABIA.

THAT'S ACTUALLY A WEALTHY COUNTRY WITH WATER DEFICIENCIES.

IS WATER AS A HUMAN RIGHT APPLICABLE IN THOSE AREAS?

I MEAN, IT'S GREAT TO TALK ABOUT IT IN A PLACE THAT HAS ADEQUATE WATER SUPPLIES, BUT WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE WATER SUPPLIES, THINGS LIKE MONETIZING WATER IS ALSO A KEY TO CONSERVING IT.

SO I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT.

>>SO I DON'T THINK IT'S ALL ABOUT HAVING ABUNDANCE IN WATER.

IN FACT, THERE'S SOME STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT THAT'S NOT REALLY A DRIVER IN THIS.

BUT PART OF IT IS, I MEAN, SO WITH WATER COMES A WHOLE OTHER BUNCH OF QUESTIONS, I MEAN, ABOUT HEALTH, ABOUT POPULATION STABILITY, ABOUT POLITICAL STABILITY.

FOR A LOT OF DICTATORSHIPS OR THEOCRACIES OR WHATEVER, THAT'S WHAT DRIVES THEM TO DO THIS.

THEY HAVE THE MONEY.

I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE ARID STATES, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THEY USE A LOT OF DESALINATION TO CREATE THE WATER, AND PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO THE WATER BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT WITHOUT ACCESS TO THE WATER, THIS IS GOING TO BE PROBLEMATIC.

AND IF YOU GO BACK TO EVEN THE ROMAN TIMES WHEN THEY WERE BUILDING CITIES, THE FIRST THING THEY DID WAS SET UP THE AQUEDUCTS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WAS ENOUGH WATER FOR SANITATION AND FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.

I THINK THE POWER OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN THEOCRACIES AND THE LIKE MAYBE AREN'T AS IMPACTFUL EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU CAN LEAN ON THIRD PARTIES.

THERE'S A PAPER THAT WE WROTE ON HOW THIS WAS DONE IN TURKEY, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE'S A DAM THAT WAS BUILT IN SOUTHERN TURKEY.

AND ORIGINALLY IT WAS GOING TO BE FUNDED BY THE EU AND EU BANKS OR EU-BASED BANKS.

AND THE ACTIVISTS USED THE HUMAN RIGHTS LANGUAGE TO CONVINCE THESE BANKS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE PART OF THIS.

AND THAT PUT AN END TO THE BUILDING OF THE DAM.

UNFORTUNATELY, LATER, THE TURKISH ECONOMY BOOMED.

AND SO THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT HAD ENOUGH MONEY TO DO IT ITSELF.

AND SO THEY BUILT THE DAM ANYWAY.

IN SOME WAYS, IN THAT SENSE, IT'S LIKE A PYRRHIC VICTORY.

YOU CAN LEVERAGE THE HUMAN RIGHTS LANGUAGE AND THE POWER OF HUMAN RIGHTS EVEN IN QUASI-DICTATORIAL REGIMES.

>>SO WE JUST HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

SO I WANT TO ASK VERY BRIEFLY WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT, CLIMATE CHANGE IMPACT IN COSTA RICA.

COULD CLIMATE CHANGE FORCE A REASSESSMENT OF WATER AS A HUMAN RIGHT, OR DOES IT MAKE IT MORE PRESSING?

>>I THINK IT MAKES IT MORE PRESSING.

I MEAN, THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT THAT JUST MAKES IT MORE PRESSING.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU START TO LINK THESE THINGS, I MEAN, HUMAN RIGHTS DON'T EXIST IN VACUUMS.

THEY ACTUALLY EXIST TOGETHER.

AND YOU CAN'T HAVE 20% OR 90% OF HUMAN RIGHTS BEING RESPECTED.

IT HAS TO BE THE WHOLE THING TOGETHER.

GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE, I THINK IS CHANGING, IT'S MAKING THE ACTUAL DEBATE WAY MORE APPARENT, WITH A CLARITY THAT WASN'T THERE BEFORE.

AND YOU CAN SEE THIS CAUSALITY.

IN THE COSTA RICAN CASE, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE LOOKING AT.

WHEN THEY FEATURED THIS BOOK ON THE NEWS SHOW IN COSTA RICA, THAT WAS THE ANGLE THEY TOOK, THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT GOING TO GET BETTER UNLESS ACTION IS TAKEN.

THE CAUSALITY WAS THERE AND THEN THIS IS THE OBVIOUS SOLUTION.

>>BRUCE WILSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING YOU BACK AGAIN SOON.

>>THANK YOU.

>>AND THANK YOU.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.