Announcer> A production of the South Carolina Educational Television Network.

Dr.

Finch> At the bottom you see the gods and the hosts of the heavenly host of Ancient Egypt gathering around the divine child to adore and worship the child.

So here, 16, 1,700 years before the birth of Christ, you have the Annunciation, the Immaculate Conception, the birth and adoration of the divine child, which... is repeated, of course, in the gospel stories of Luke, some 1,600 years later.

And this is just one way of showing how so many gospel episodes are, if you will, taken almost verbatim or directly out of Egyptian originals, of which this is an example.

"Beauty and the Beast."

"Beauty and the Beast," represents Isis and Set.

Remember what I said about Isis?

Isis is a great lady.

She's also the, she is also the original consort of Set.

I said that back a little while ago.

Set is the original beast who is in earliest form, the jackal or the dog or the wolf.

And he is transformed into his twin, which is Horus, which is what happens when, when Beast is killed and, I'm sorry, he's not killed.

Yeah, he is near death and then is transformed by Beauty into his human form.

That is essentially the transformation of Set and Anubis into Horus.

> Good evening, and welcome to For The People .

And the third part of our conversation with Dr.

Charles S. Finch on Gerald Massey's two volume work, Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World .

We begin this segment with a discussion of the zodiac.

Dr.

Finch> The Ancient Egyptians made a complete copy, if you will, or a complete representation of their world in the heavens.

They sort of reconstituted it in the heavens.

Now, very early on, they were stargazers, and they were able to observe and make records of the movements and activities of various heavenly bodies.

So astronomy begins with them.

One of the things they learned very early is that the Earth tilts at a 23.5 degree axis from true vertical north.

When it does that, the Earth, the axis, the Earth when it revolves or rotates, wobbles like a top.

And when it wobbles like a top, that 23.5 degree axis, which is our magnetic north, it slowly revolves around true north or the North Pole, the ecliptic taking 26,000 years to do so.

This is the great year.

What they did, after they determined the great year, which took maybe may have taken them 26,000 years of astronomical observation to do so.

They, in effect created a great circular clock, if you will, an imaginary clock, mythological clock that was defined by that 26,000 year, great year, and they divided up into 12 arcs or 12 months.

They put the zoo types that we talked about into the heavens on this clock to define each arc or each segment, which was an age.

This is a so-called zodiac, of today.

The zodiac is a Greek word basically meaning animals.

And the reason why- Or zoo.

And the reason why is because these were zoo types or animal types that were put there, and we know them, conventionally.

Taurus, Aries, the fishes.

Listervelt> But the original meaning and purpose of it was what?

Dr.

Finch> Okay.

Well- Listervelt> Go ahead, go ahead.

Dr.

Finch> Now... well, the purposes of it was in the heavens really to write out in the heavens, the progress of the perfected soul in the heavens, in the different... as related, as related to the sun.

Because remember, the sun and the soul are two symbols for one another.

Now... What they... what happened next is that, if you look at the equinoxes, that, with the equinoxes, the equinoxes rise in one sign, a constellation that is defined- Listervelt> Equinox, explain that.

Dr.

Finch> Equinox, is a time when the... day and night are equal length.

<Okay> Okay.

When the sun moves on its ecliptic from the, its low point on the horizon in the winter solstice to the high point on the horizon in the summer solstice, it reaches a midpoint which is equal day and equal night.

The equinoxes... would rise in one of those arcs that I talked about.

Remember, they were defined by the zodiac and we can just go through them.

Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius and Capricorn.

Now what happens, however due to that slow retrograde movement around the North Pole, the ecliptic, the equinoxes advance through each sign or arc in 2,155 years.

That 2,155 years is an age.

And, each age is dominated by a particular sign, and that sign becomes a symbol of the age, becomes a spirit of the age.

Now, this probably first began, in the age of Leo and Lion, Leo the lion.

But, at the beginning of Egyptian history, the equinoxes were in Taurus.

So it was the age of Taurus.

That is, the equinoxes rose under the sign or constellation of Taurus because that 26,000 years retrogration, retrograde.

So the bull- All the signs associated with the bull, the bull and the bull calf became the dominant symbol of the age.

That is when Taurus, Osiris came to, came to ascendancy.

And they were both bull deities and bull gods.

But after 2,155 years, it moved into Aries the next sign because it's moving backwards, not forwards, backwards.

And that is the ram.

Okay.

So the ram and the lamb and the shepherd all become dominant symbols of the age.

Now what happens is that when you move from one age to the next, the old symbols fall away.

They no longer become dominant, but they still maintain their remnants in the succeeding age.

So in the age of Aries, or the age of the ram or the age of the lamb, you have ram, lamb and shepherd symbolism.

The Bible , "Old Testament" comes to comes to fruition in the age of Aries.

That is why throughout the "Old Testament," you see this lamb and ram symbolism In Exodus, after all, it is the blood of the lamb that saves the children of Israel.

We know that, Abel- I mean, that Isaac was saved by a lamb caught in the thicket.

So this lamb and the Pascal lamb of the Passover was, related to this age of Aries.

So this is the... dominant symbolism of the age.

Shepherd, shepherd, sheep, ram, lamb.

Now 2,000- This began about 2410 BC or maybe a little later 2100, 2200 BC.

2,155 years later it moves out of Aries and into Pisces.

Pisces is what, the fishes somewhere between 255 and 68 BC.

Then there is a new, avatar or a new symbol, a new spirit of the age the fishes.

The ram falls to the wayside, and the religion of the age of the fishes, of course, is Christianity.

Jesus is the avatar of the age of the fishes.

In fact, he says so.

He says, when the Pharisees say, "well, what is the sign that you are the Messiah?"

He says, "this is a wicked generation, it demands a sign, and the only sign that I will give it is a sign of Jonah."

Jonah is the... Jonah is the fish man.

<Fish man> So throughout the "Old Testament" you see all this fish symbolism.

The fishers, I will make you fishers of men, the loaves and the two fishes.

In fact, the early Christians used to call themselves fishes.

But the older symbolism still carries forward.

It doesn't completely die away.

So Jesus is also called the "Good Shepherd."

Because that is just, he is just carrying over that is symbolism that is carrying over from the previous age.

Now and let me just say this, all of this is in the Book of the Dead , all of it.

The fish symbolism, the Arian symbol, all of it's in the Book of the Dead .

I got passages that talk about the fishers of men, the fishing for the souls.

And that's why... and Jesus is the- In fact, Jesus in the "New Testament" actually gives you clues to the new age.

He says, "there is a new age coming, and it will be... it will be, announced by portents in the sky."

It'll be announced by portents of the sun, moon, and stars.

So, when people say that- You know, when people start making all this noise about, against astrology and astronomical mythology, they don't understand the fundamental basis of all of this.

Listervelt> How has, what again, what was its initial original purpose and how has it been distorted?

Dr.

Finch> Okay.

It's initial... its initial, original purpose, as I say, was in every way and every way possible, the ancient Kemites, that is, the people who in Africa and Egypt created this symbolic world for us, this metaphysical world, this religious world, this cultural world.

They tried to create a record of everything that they had learned and were teaching.

Of all the experiences that humankind had, generated up until that time.

And they were trying to record that as a signpost and as a guide to future generations.

They wrote it on the walls of their temple, they wrote it on the papyri, and they wrote it in the heavens.

And that the... and the sun, moving through the various signs of the zodiac, is also a symbol of the soul and the sun, moving through amenta to the various trials of amenta in order to be perfected in the crucible of human experience and celestial experience.

So it's a teach, it's a guide, it's a lesson.

In Heaven, on Earth, in nature.

Now, you know, Matthew says, "by knowing the cycle of the great year, you know, true prophecy."

Because this is something that has been set it's a cycle that recurs every 26,000 years.

And, you... you know, if you know the cycle, you know, when the next age is coming and you know that one thing that happens between one age and the next, there is a disintegration of the old order in order for the new order- Listervelt> When you say old order, what are you talking about?

Dr.

Finch> The old order, the dominant order of the time.

Listervelt> Because one thing I'm not clear on is, is... is it just time that is determining what is going to be happening in the, in the future?

Dr.

Finch> To a large extent, yes.

Listervelt> Just time and to what extent, mankind, womankind to what extent do we participate and can shape can shape the times, if you understand what I'm saying?

Dr.

Finch> Exactly.

Well, you know, I guess, you know, I can get us into metaphysical discussions about the definition between the predestination and free will.

The point, the point being is that, you know, there is a order and a structure and a harmony to nature.

Nature, it follows, follows certain cycles.

It follows certain paths it follows certain movements that recur and recycle.

Listervelt> What do you mean there?

> Well, I mean, you know, just that I mean, I don't think there's any way to say it any different.

The sun rises in the morning and sets at night.

Listervelt> There you go.

Simple as that.

Dr.

Finch> The moon goes around every 30 days a month.

The great year every 26,000 years.

And the point being is that within these cycles there is great latitude for individual action.

You know... but what I'm saying is that the overall framework is in place.

And within the, overall framework there is great latitude for individual, individual and collective action.

But, the what is the... the spirit of the times is going to be there.

And the ability for individual and, individual humans and collective humans to make the most out of their experience on Earth really depends on how well they understand and incorporate the spirit of the times.

Listervelt> So let me ask you a question you probably can't answer.

But anyway, so... say your fish, Piscean period is coming along Dr.

Finch> Actually, it's ending.

Listervelt> It's ending, okay.

But what is, what is... the... What sets the Piscean Age apart from another age?

Does that make any- Probably can't answer it.

(laughter) You know, what sets it apart from, another age?

I mean, as we look at humankind, what is, what would be going on in this, in the Piscean Age?

Dr.

Finch> Okay, well, let me... I won't be able to answer it directly.

Listervelt> I understand.

Dr.

Finch> But it's in knowing, of course, the essence of the typology.

One of the things- Let's look at Aquarius.

Aquarius is actually the goddess Nut, the great nurse, the giver of water and fluid.

We're coming- We're dawn... the Aquarian Age is dawning.

It is, it is a typology that is dominated by the maternal and feminine principle of Nut and Hathor.

Why is it, why do you think, you think that the upsurge of feminism in the last ten, 15, 20 years is an accident?

Listervelt> I think you answered my question.

(laughter) I think you answered my question.

(laughter continues) Okay.

The distortions, though, on the, zodiac thing.

Could you address that?

Dr.

Finch> Well, I mean- Listervelt> People look at it and say, "well, you know, today I'm not supposed to go out and buy or whatever."

Dr.

Finch> No, no, no, you know, it's like... Gosh, I don't know that, I don't know that I can.

It's like anything else.

It's sort of like, you know, Matthew says- Basically, you know, what are superstitions?

Superstition are the degenerate mysteries people using them in a, in a... for means and uses for which they were never intended.

Misusing them, abusing them and misinterpreting them.

But basically the same thing has happened in our religions.

When we take a, when we take, the, Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Mysteries of Amenta and make them literal history as was done in the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament-" <Go ahead> Well, it's the same thing with anything else.

Listervelt> Go ahead.

Dr.

Finch> Now, whether it be astrology, whether it be religion, whether it be anything, it is taking something that, taking something that had one sort of... what's the word?

Meaning, use, purpose and using it for something entirely different.

That's all really, that's all- And basically that's corrupt and that's degenerate.

And that is essentially what happened with what we today call astrology.

Or any... or a lot of things people misinterpreting and misusing them because they do not have the key.

Listervelt> So, but you're saying that these Africans had actually plotted the future?

(laughter) Dr.

Finch> Let's put it this way.

They had actually... seen the world in terms of time and saw it, understood it, mapped it out, and placed it for everyone to see, for anyone who had the key to find- Listervelt> Because they had been here so long- Dr.

Finch> At least 200,000 years, maybe 300,000.

They did it not for themselves.

They did it for, they did it for us, their posterity.

Because they knew that this was going to happen.

What we got, this madness we have in the world today.

They knew it.

Listervelt> Now, when you say that the zodiac today, people do not... see it as coming from the African mind.

Dr.

Finch> Don't see anything coming from Africa.

No, that's part of the, that's part of the corruption.

That's part of the distortion.

That's part of the reason why people, things are in such a state is because they lost the original essence of all of these things.

Not only do they know that all this stuff's coming from Africa, they don't want to know.

They get mad at the idea, ticks them off.

They don't want to know.

They'd rather not know.

They'd rather wallow in their ignorance.

And it's more important for them not to know, to think that, that this could not possibly come from the Africa- To, to, to- If I say to separate themselves and distance themselves to... move away from that which gave rise to them.

It's, in a way it's kind of matricide, if you will.

Listervelt> So is it any wonder that the whole astrology thing is belittled in- Dr.

Finch> No wonder at all.

Listervelt> - parts of the Western world.

Dr.

Finch> Parts of the Western world?

I got something in the mail today.

It was a journal for the investigation of claimed, paranormal claims.

And basically it was some of your scientists, like Asimov and Sagan and people like that who basically are debunkers.

Basically saying, "that there's no such thing as psychic phenomena."

You know, "there's no such thing as, as a world beyond the five senses that is defined by Western science."

Western science, is after all, an ideology, a very successful ideology, but it is an ideology.

Listervelt> And you are a medical doctor.

Dr.

Finch> I sure am.

Listervelt> You used to work at the Center for Disease Control.

Dr.

Finch> I sure did.

(laughter) Listervelt> Go ahead.

You finished?

Dr.

Finch> But it is an ideology.

There's... it has, it is successful within its own lights but it... there's nothing universal about it.

There's no, nothing universally valid about it than any other, way of perceiving reality, of interacting with reality.

In fact, it's a very limited way of dealing and interacting with reality.

Listervelt> Why you say it's limited, now?

Dr.

Finch> Well, because it cuts human beings off from such a vast reservoir of their possible or potential experiences.

I mean, there's much more to life.

I mean, it's the idea, but you cannot live by bread alone.

There's much more to life than what you can perceive by merely, the faculty of sensation, whether it be five sensations.

Listervelt> Have other people been on the planet long enough to appreciate this?

Dr.

Finch> Well, some people have.

I think, there was a, there was a time when, I think everybody understood it and appreciated it at some level.

But I think it was in the interest, it was in the conscious interest of European political powers to control this in such a way that they, well control it in such a way that... in a way dispersed its power, its hold over people.

And it was a conscious political decision, had nothing to do with search for truth.

Europe has never been really interested in a search for truth.

Listervelt> We come into the, the final five minutes of this segment or three minutes of this segment.

What would you say to, and we still got a long way to go with Massey, which you haven't even started yet.

What would you say to the Black person who's looking around and assumes that... this or that was created by the European world?

Dr.

Finch> Boy.

Well, you have to be more specific about the this and the that.

Listervelt> Well... the zodiac thing, you know, I mean, people don't necessarily, associate that... with an African origin, you know.

You can go to Washington DC and see the... the, the Washington <Monument> Washington Monument, you know, which has an African origin.

Dr.

Finch> The blindness you're talking about is deliberate, and also to some, some extent self-imposed.

I mean, how, how do you best enslave, enslave a people?

You don't enslave them by putting chains around their ankles.

I mean, you know, people can break chains.

You enslave them by alienating themselves from their, from themselves and from their culture and from the history by pulling, if you will, blinders over their cultural vision and historical vision.

Essentially creating a sense of amnesia about their history, about themselves, such that, the people themselves come to believe the big lie.

And not only come to believe it almost have an investment in this willful blindness, in this ignorance, even reveling in this ignorance and, sort of experiencing a sort of, sense of unease when you, when you try to lift the veil of ignorance from them.

Because, that is the most effective means of social and political and cultural control.

It's not, it's not physical, it's not physical enslavement.

It's mental enslavement.

And it is only when that is lifted then can you really talk about freedom in its truest sense.

So that, once a people loses that, through what people have called menticide, psychological genocide, if you will.

What people have called an induced collective amnesia, perhaps a collective lombotomy.

Well, you know, it's just like when you lobotomize a patient.

Well, then you don't, when you do that, you've taken away all his will, all his initiative, virtually all his intelligence.

He becomes robot like.

You don't need to confine him.

You don't need to lock him up.

Well, it's the same thing with a people.

If you sort of culturally and psychologically mentally lobotomized them, which is essentially what happen, then you don't have to put chains around them.

You don't have to put wire fences around them.

They'll do that around themselves.

Listervelt> There's a very important scene in the Temple of Luxor, which tells the story of the birth of a child to a royal Egyptian family.

Would you discuss this scene, please?

I think we had that slide.

Dr.

Finch> This scene goes back to 1600 to 1700 BC.

Now, it is describing the birth of a royal but also a divine child.

Now, what do we mean by that?

Well, you have to understand, the pharaoh.

The pharaoh was the personification of Horus on Earth.

So the birth of any pharaoh, in a sense, was a divine birth, was... just that, a divine birth.

So in that sense, we can say that this is the birth of a divine child.

Now, on the far left of that scene, on that panel, you see the mother who is the, mother of the pharaoh, the royal mother who is being- Where Thoth, excuse me, Thoth is the messenger god of Ancient Egypt.

He's the personification, of the word, he is announcing to the mother the impending birth of a divine child.

Then in the second scene on that panel, you see, on the one hand, you see Hathor, with the symbol of life given to the mouth of the mother.

But behind that, you see the god Nef.

Now, Nef is personification of breath, and breath is synonymous in Ancient Egypt with the spirit.

So Nef is a god or divine being.

So he is a personification of the divine, a holy spirit.

And you see him again holding the, symbol of life to the mother, showing that she is being, impregnated, if you will, by the holy spirit.

Said she is being conceiving by the power of the holy spirit.

And then you see her abdomen, in its pregnant aspect.

Now, if you move further along on that slide, on the upper panel, you see the birth of the divine child Horus.

The mother is sitting in the, sitting in the birthing chair, and the child is being born.

And I think if you continue further, you'll see that the child- Well, yeah, the child is being held.

And that is an image of the infant Horus, the divine child or divine Horus being born.

And then at the bottom, you see the gods and the hosts of the heavenly hosts of Ancient Egypt gathering around the divine child to adore and worship the child.

So here, 16, 1,700 years before the birth of Christ, you have the Annunciation, the Immaculate Conception, the birth and adoration of the divine child, which, is repeated, of course, in the gospel stories of Luke some 1,600 years later.

And this is just one way of showing how so many gospel episodes are, if you will, taken almost verbatim or directly out of Egyptian originals, of which this is an example.

Listervelt> During the break, we talked about, about Horus and horoscope.

Would you just go over that, please?

Dr.

Finch> Yeah.

The horoscope- Horo is a Greek word meaning hour or time.

And it comes from the, Greek, excuse me, the Egyptian har, Heru.

Heru was the god of, as Horus, he was a god of the day.

God of the sun, also the god of time.

And the reason that is, is because the day is defined by the movement of the sun across the sky.

And that is Horus, of course, moving across the sky.

So that is why he is defined as the god of the day, time and the hour.

This is transmitted to Greek as horo for Horus.

And then... this is applied to our word for horoscope, which is a... what's the word?

It's a description or a map of, of a particular time, in the astrological chart.

Listervelt> Okay.

What can you tell us about the manger as a birth place?

Dr.

Finch> Remember what we said about the great year?

Remember what we had said about the zoo typical figures dominating or personifying the spirit of the age, whether it be Taurus on the one hand, who is the bull or the cow or the calf, whether it be Aries as the ram, lamb, or shepherd.

Well, the previous manifestations, if you will, of the divine child who is the savior of the world, was in the earlier time periods or the earlier ages.

In the one hand it was Aries, the ram.

And so the divine child who is a manifestation of the ram is going to be the lamb.

Before that it was Taurus, the bull and divine child of the bull is going to be the calf.

So what this is showing is that Jesus, if you will, and in some way is a continuation of these earlier manifestations of god as a divine savior.

So what you find, and where are they, ordinarily, of course, you would expect a calf or a lamb to be born, where?

In a manger, in a barn.

In fact, what do you see in nativity scenes?

You see Jesus being born in the manger, which is, if you will, a continuation or a recreation, of the previous burst of the zoo typical saviors as a lamb and the, calf.

And what do you see in that scene?

You see calves and lambs and other animals.

Well, particularly the lamb and the calf.

Actually, there on the scene, as a way of establishing the connection of the divine Jesus to his previous manifestation.