Announcer> A production of the South Carolina Educational Television Network.

> Good evening, and welcome to For the People and the fifth part of our interview with Dr.

Charles Finch on Gerald Massey's two volume work, Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World .

In this segment, we continue our discussion of the Egyptian etymological roots of the names of Biblical characters.

Dr.

Finch> This is the first example of something that was shown to me that got me on this track.

Cheikh Anta Diop in 1985, I'll never forget it, in London.

Showed me the, derivation that he had done for the name Abraham that put me on to this and has sort of, that I have extended and continued ever since.

And this is Abraham, Abra... Abraham was first A bram when he left Chaldea, okay.

In Hebrew it's... written in this way because the Hebrew, by the way, like the Egyptian, when they actually wrote things, they wrote it in consonants.

You know, and Hebrew is all written consonants, and the reader is supposed to be able to supply the vowels.

You know, even though we translate this "A" this really is not an "A" in Hebrew, but we, that's the way we it's like a guttural sound.

But without getting into too much technical detail, linguistically speaking, Abram is Abrm.

And it's the same as Abrem in Egyptian.

He is the first patriarch or father of the Hebrews, and also the Arabians and other Western Semitic peoples.

Well "Ab" means father, "rem" means people.

Father of the people.

Well, this is an entirely appropriate name for Abram, because he is the father or the founding ancestor of an entire branch of Western Semitic people.

And so that's what it means.

Abram means father of the people.

Now, he went to Egypt, and after his visit to Egypt and his interaction with Pharaoh, he... establishes a covenant with God by circumcision and changes his name to Abraham.

Abraham in Egyptian gives us Ab-ra-im or Ib-ra-im.

This "A" is, could be an "I."

And of course in Arabic that's Ibrahim.

And Arabic and Hebrew, of course, are very closely related languages.

"Ab" means desire or wisdom.

"Ra" is Ra, the Egyptian god whose symbol is the sun.

"Im" means fire or light.

So Abraham is Ab-ra-im, meaning the desire for the light of Ra or the wisdom of the light of Ra.

Listervelt> Ra being?

Dr.

Finch> The Egyptian god who, whose emblem is the sun.

Ra is the first god to institute circumcision in Egypt.

He is the first circumcised god, symbolically speaking.

Remember what happened with Abraham?

Abraham became Abraham from Abram when he established his covenant with God by circumcision.

What I'm saying here is Abraham was a devotee or perhaps a personification of Ra himself.

Listervelt> So, historically speaking, what are you saying about Abraham?

Dr.

Finch> Historically, I don't know that you can say anything historically, or you can't say something historically, because there is no real evidence that there was such a person as Abraham.

Abraham is, as I say, if you will, he is a personification.

He is a mythological ancestor.

But what it does say is that the Pre-Hebrews, the Pre-Hebrew ancestors of the Hebrews, and by the way, Abraham is not a Hebrew.

What do I mean by that?

Hebrews are only Hebrews by obtaining or getting the law from Moses at Sinai.

Abraham lives 5 to 700 years before Moses.

He is the father, not only the Hebrews, but also the Arabians and other Western Semites.

So he's not a Hebrew as such.

He is, originally a Chaldean who is a shepherd who, travels through Canaan, comes to Egypt.

And what I'm saying is that he takes on the worship of Ra.

But what he might really be is actually a human personification of Ra himself.

And the Hebrew writers wrote, of course, say that, you know, call him, call it God.

And what I'm saying, the god of Abraham was Ra.

You want to flip this over?

Listervelt> Egyptian- Yeah, hold on.

(laughter) Dr.

Finch> Okay.

And we can follow this out further, when looking at Isaac.

Isaac in Hebrew is Isak.

It gives you Isakh in Egyptian.

Now Isaac was to be sacrificed as a burnt offering or an offering by fire.

In Egyptian "Is" means place.

"Akh" means offering by fire.

So Isaac or Isakh is a place of the offering by fire.

What this does is recall the outstanding event in Isaac's life when he was, about ready to be offered as a burnt offering by Abraham to God.

And of course, God says, "don't do that."

And sent him a lamb in the thicket to be offered as a substitute sacrifice.

Remember what we said about the lamb?

This obviously occurred during the age of Aries, when the ram was the dominant... ram and the lamb was the dominant symbol of the age.

So Isaac is related to Ra because of his association with fire.

Now let's look at Jacob, Israel.

Jacob changed his name to Israel after wrestling with an angel.

Israel in Egyptian gives us Is-ra-ir.

"Is" means place.

Ra is the sun god.

"Ra-ir" means creation or to create.

Ir... "R" and "L" are interchangeable linguistically.

They are palatals that means you form them by putting your tongue to the top of your palate.

You change them, you can interchange them linguistically.

Which is why in Japan the language does not have an "L" in it.

So whenever they transliterate foreign words into Japanese that have an "L," they say an "R."

Like they say, instead of saying play, the Japanese will say pray because they don't have an "L."

But they can change "L" and "R" linguistically.

So the Egyptians also didn't have an "L."

So Isra-ir is the same as il, and it means creation or to create.

So Israel or Israir means the place that Ra created.

Listervelt> Which is saying what?

Dr.

Finch> Just this, Abraham, Isaac and Israel are all worshipers or forms of the Egyptian god RA.

Listervelt> Okay.

And Abraham, Isaac, and Israel... in terms of, historically speaking.

Dr.

Finch> Historically speaking, it is doubtful that they were true individuals.

If anything, they are mythological ancestors.

They were patriarchs and were probably forms of deities who, and different manifestations of the god Ra who were given human form in the "Old Testament."

Listervelt> Let's deal with this etymological thing here again.

The Egyptian being much earlier... Dr.

Finch> Much earlier.

Listervelt> ...than the Hebrew.

Dr.

Finch> Yes.

Listervelt> That tells you what?

In terms of what you've written here?

Dr.

Finch> Well, first of all, Hebrew is in some sense derived, if not from Egyptian itself, then from the same language group that Egyptian forms a part of.

And the language group the Egyptian forms a part of precedes... Hebrew, and Egyptian precedes Hebrew.

So, that if Egyptian is the prior, is the previous language, is the earlier language, then the meanings, then the words within the original meanings of the words that are used in Hebrew can be found only in Egyptian.

Such that the... the conventional way of, of explaining these names and words in Hebrew do not give us a clue, or at least not give us the same clue that you can get by going one step back further and looking at the Egyptian.

Listervelt> Why don't we go one step back further?

Dr.

Finch> Well, we don't go one step back further for the same reason why we do not want to look at the African origins of Judeo-Christianity.

Because what this does is show you that, that really, well, really the religion of the "Old Testament" comes out of Egypt and Africa.

That's what essentially it does.

Listervelt> Okay.

Got another one?

<Mhm> Okay.

Dr.

Finch> Okay.

This is Moses, whose Egyptian, or Hebrew name is Museh okay, or Musheh.

This is Mushu in Egyptian, he sailed down the river in the ark of bulrushes to the lake or river of reeds.

"Mu" means sea, lake or river.

"Shu" means reeds or bulrushes.

So Moses, Musheh is Mushu, which is the sea or lake of reeds.

This identifies Moses as a form of Horus.

Now Moses, now, now, that doesn't mean Moses wasn't a historical person, because he was.

But wait a minute, wait a minute.

Because Horus was born in a swamp or river of reeds.

The Egyptians identify Moses in his original name as Osarseph.

Who was by the Egyptians considered a renegade Egyptian priest who took up the part of the mixed multitude in Lower Egypt and led them out of Egypt and into Palestine.

Listervelt> This is historical or mythical?

Dr.

Finch> This is historical.

But Osarseph... what is what does Osarseph mean?

Osarseph, "Osar" is Osiris, "seph" means son.

Osarseph, which is Moses means son of Osiris, which is Horus.

So it all connects.

<Hmm> David in Hebrew is Dawd.

In Egyptian, this gives you "da-wd."

What did David do?

What is the outstanding and fundamental event of his life.

He killed Goliath with a sling.

In Egyptian "da" means to smite "wd" means to fling or sling.

David, Dawd Da-wd means to smite by flinging.

What I'm suggesting to you, and this has been shown in our earlier etymologies, is I don't think this was original... David was his original name.

I think he got that name after this event.

You see this in cases of Abraham and, Israel and elsewhere in The Bible .

Is that the names that come down to us very likely, are not the original names.

They're names that are given to them and which are defined by the outstanding events in their lives.

By the way, this is a typical African custom.

In Africa, you get several names in your life.

And your names that you receive later on in life again, are defined by the outstanding events of your life.

Listervelt> Okay, let me ask you another question, that's sort of apart from that.

Eve, the role Eve plays in the Judeo-Christian sacred writings, how has that affected... the life of women in the Judeo-Christian world?

Dr.

Finch> Well, you know, Eve is considered the source of all sin, so that makes all women sinful and that makes women all, the source of all evil in the Judeo tradition... in the conventional Judeo-Christian thinking.

And this goes back to what I said, when the patriarchal religions of Judeo-Christianity came to the fore, the matriarchal religions... fell down.

Their status fell down and, and the female and the female principal also lost status.

And actually, became symbolic of that which was evil.

Listervelt> Now, what is the image of the female in the Egyptian, African sacred writings?

Dr.

Finch> Well... the point that we made, made earlier.

Egypt never, ever lost touch or never suppressed or repressed its matriarchal origins of its religion.

So that, there was a harmony and a equilibrium between the masculine and feminine halves of deity, of god, so that... the, female and the female principle, the maternal principle always maintained its high status, and it's important and central essential place in the Egyptian religion.

In fact, the oldest deities of Egyptian religion are in fact the female deities.

And the fact that they are the oldest means that they have a very, very important place in the Egyptian pantheon and the Egyptian religion.

Thebes, for example, which is the patron city of Amun-Ra, a masculine deity, if you ever was one, is actually the seat of Opet.

Opet is the hippopotamus goddess deity who is one of the first, earliest images of the Great Mother.

In fact, the name for, the Temple of Luxor is actually Opet.

That's the Egyptian name for it.

And that area was called Ta-Opet, and it was corrupted by the Greeks from Ta-Opet to Thebes.

So even the word Thebes comes from a word in Egyptian that identifies that as the seat, the primordial seat of the great mother goddess Opet.

Listervelt> Massey in Ancient Egypt says that the... what we have come to believe are European fairy tales actually... come out of Africa.

Would you, deal with a couple of the stories?

Taking first of all, maybe the Mother Goose story and explaining its origins.

Dr.

Finch> What he is referring to is the fact that fairy tales are degenerate myth... is degenerate mythology.

Listervelt> You said degenerate mythology.

What do you mean?

Dr.

Finch> Just that, it's mythology that has, over time, become trivialized, whose meanings have been lost- <Distorted> And so that they, so the only thing that's left is the form of the story.

And the story, you know, if... the story can only have an existence since it's loss its meaning and since it's become trivial as a fairy tale.

One of these, for example, will be "Jack and the Beanstalk."

Jack is, Jack is actually Akh.

A-K-H... in Egyptian.

Akh is the light, which is a form of Horus.

Now, one of the symbols of Horus is Horus emerging on top of the lotus stalk.

Is an image of the newborn son.

So the beanstalk, with Jack on top of it is an image again of the, of Horus being born.

The Giant of the beanstalk is nothing more than the Apep dragon, who is a form of Set, who is the enemy, who is the personification of darkness and is the enemy of the sun and light.

The, "Sleeping Beauty" is... Well, Massey says that Sleeping Beauty, is a reflection of the fact that when the Egyptians realized that the light of the moon was actually derived from the sun, they represented this as the Lady Hathor who was asleep in the new moon.

But what, But when she... became, the full moon, it was a reflection of the sun who is the Prince, kissing the sleeping Princess.

And it's just an image of the sun and the moon conjoining together.

"Cinderella" is kind of the same thing.

It's a conjunction- Even "Snow White."

The conjunction of the moon with the sun that gives the moon its light.

That's basically where that, that fairy tale symbolism comes from.

Tom Thumb is, remember earlier we had talked about Atum or, is the little Atum.

In fact, that's what you call him, Tom Thumb.

Again, is an image of the newborn or the, infant son.

Listervelt> "Beauty and the Beast."

Dr.

Finch> "Beauty and the Beast."

"Beauty and the Beast," represents Isis and Set.

Remember what I said about Isis?

Isis is a great lady.

She's also the... she is also the original consort of Set.

I said that back a little while ago.

Set is the original Beast who is in earliest form, the jackal or the dog or the wolf.

And he is transformed into his twin, which is Horus, which is what happens when, when Beast is killed and, I'm sorry... yeah, he is near death and then is transformed by Beauty into the, into his human form.

That is essentially the transformation of Set, and Anubis into Horus, who was his twin.

Listervelt> Okay, let's go to some other animals and what they represent an Egyptian mythology.

The rabbit, the hare.

Dr.

Finch> The rabbit.

The rabbit... represents Osiris.

The name for the rabbit or the hare in Egyptian mythology was Unut, which meant being or good being.

He was identified with the moon, and he was also identified with Horus... excuse me, Osiris.

The reason he was identified with Osiris is because Osiris, as I say, was the figure or god of resurrection.

The leaping up of the rabbit- Listervelt> Out of the hole of the Earth.

Dr.

Finch> Yeah, out of the hole of the earth or really just leaping as a symbol of rising up or raising up.

So in the, in the early kemetic framework, mental or psychological framework, this was the image of resurrection.

So he's identified with Osiris and this is the source of the Easter Bunny.

Because he is a lunar animal.

And remember that Easter was a festival that commemorated the conjunction of the sun and the equinox and the full moon.

And even now, Easter is a moveable feast which occurs after the first full moon, after the first, after the equinox.

So the hare or the rabbit is identified with the moon and he's identified with Osiris.

And he's a form of resurrection.

And that is the source of our Easter Bunny.

Listervelt> Well, okay, fine.

(laughter) The black pig.

Dr.

Finch> The black pig is Set.

One of the forms of Set was as the pig.

And this was one of the forms in which he attacked Horus or Osiris, which is why the pig and the consumption of pig was an abomination in Ancient Egypt.

Listervelt> Now, all these things, once again, the African origin, and we have the Br'er Rabbit, so-called Br'er Rabbit and, and Br'er Fox story.

We walk around as Black people not even knowing- Dr.

Finch> Well as I say, the Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox story is just another rendition, although far removed from its source of the conflict between Set and Osiris.

Listervelt> Between evil and good?

Dr.

Finch> Yes, but, but, zoo typically and zoo morphically and mythologically is Set and Osiris.

Set, one of the forms of Set, as I said, is the jackal or the wolf.

The fox is nothing more than... a type of the wolf or jackal.

And so therefore the fox is a type of Set.

The rabbit we've already described as being Osiris.

So the Br'er Rabbit stories which pit him against, and usually winning against the fox is nothing more than a late rendition of the Set and Osiris and Set story.

Listervelt> Okay.

The ape.

Dr.

Finch> The ape is a form of Thoth.

And the reason why that is, is that in Africa today, you can find, you can even see, the ape serves almost the same purpose as the cock, that is the rooster.

The ape at dawn chatters at the sun as it rises.

So this was an image of them announcing or heralding the rise of the sun.

Now one of the functions of Thoth, was as a messenger and as a herald of God and of the sun.

So the ape was a form of, Thoth and... he was, identified with, the herald of Osiris.

Listervelt> The cat.

Dr.

Finch> The cat is a form of Ra in his, Ra as a nighttime sun.

The reason why is this is Ra in Amenta underneath, going in the underworld.

And the cat is an animal that can see by night.

So he's a figure of the sun moving through the underworld by night.

Listervelt> Okay, the... the ass, I think.

Dr.

Finch> The ass.

Well, there are several, there are several there are actually two, ways in which you can describe or explain the ass.

The ass, the golden ass is a form of Ra, the sun.

Because in Ancient Egypt, and particularly in early Ancient Egypt, one of the ways, one of the most common mode of transportation by animal was the ass.

And the ass was the one that pulled the boats up and down the rivers and the canals.

And so in the heavens, the Ancient Egyptians represented the golden ass pulling the barge of the sun across the heavens.

Sometimes it represented the ass with the sun in between its ears.

So the golden ass became a form of Ra.

Interestingly enough, the ass was also a form of Set.

And there's a reason for this.

One of the meanings for the word Set is fire, heat and fire.

And what Set represented was the negative aspect of the sun, that part of the sun which was not life giving but caused drought and desiccation and death.

And that was Set.

And so because of that, Set was also identified with the sun.

Listervelt> Set shows up- Dr.

Finch> I mean, the ass.

Listervelt> Set shows up in the, in the Hebrew, sacred writings- Dr.

Finch> As Satan.

Listervelt> As Satan.

Dr.

Finch> Yeah, Satan.

In fact, if you look at the words set on... set and then on means repeat or double or second.

So Satan is the second manifestation of Set.

Listervelt> Okay.

The dung beetle.

Dr.

Finch> The dung beetle.

This is the scarab or Khepri.

The... along the banks of the Nile, right before the flood.

You see the beetle rolling up dung with his hind legs along the banks of the Nile.

It deposits its eggs in the dung and then buries the eggs in the mud.

Then the Nile flood comes over and covers over this area.

Then after three months, it recedes.

After those three months, you see the larvae, the winged larvae flying up out of the mud.

This is an image of that which creates itself out of the primary ooze.

It flies up, out of the primal ooze, so that the dung beetle, that is the scarab actually became an image of self-creation and recreation.

Listervelt> So they didn't worship the scarab?

Dr.

Finch> No, no, they did not worship, it was a symbol or image of that, of God which created itself.

Listervelt> But when some of the, some among the European world went to Egypt, what did they think of?

Dr.

Finch> Well, they thought the same thing that people like Juvenal, who was a Latin writer and others of the late Greeks and Romans, that the Egyptians worship animals.

And accused and Christians, of course, of the same thing, early Christians, accusing the Egyptians of worshiping animals.

Listervelt> What did the European... well, let me, let me ask this one.

I want you to get back to the Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox story and once again repeat what was the meaning there, the Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox story?

Dr.

Finch> Well, as I say, it's the... you know, you said it.

It was the constant struggle of good versus evil, light versus dark.

Osiris, Horus representing the rabbit, a symbol of light.

Whether it be the lunar light of the moon or the light of the sun.

And the fox representing Set, who is the personification of darkness.

Listervelt> Some people think that circumcision... <Yes> was a, is a... a practice, initiated by Jews, Hebrews.

<Oh, no> What can you tell us about circumcision in the African, Egyptian world?

Dr.

Finch> Age-old.

We don't even know when, we don't, we can't even- It's so old, we don't even know when it began.

And again, one of the things about the Ancient Egyptian mythology, as preserved in its writings and its hieroglyphs, is that in some sense, it preserves a complete record of the psychological and cultural history of mankind, from its earliest beginnings all the way to the dawn of history.

And we've already mentioned the fact that Ra was the god of circumcision.

And what that meant, We talked about the change over from matriarchy and patriarchy.

Well, in the matriarchal sphere, it was blood and water that was the image of creation, because the woman's menstruation and the blood that comes out during a parturition or delivery was an image of life and the image of creation, the image of new birth.

So Ra circumcised himself, caused bleeding to do two things.

He circumcised that part of his, phallus that was feminine, and it caused blood and semen to mix.

Therefore, in a sense, bypassing the female aspect or, if you will, incorporating the female aspects onto himself so that he becomes the absolute and sole creator.

And that is the source of our circumcision.

Listervelt> Say that again, that last part again.

Dr.

Finch> Okay.

By circumcising himself and by taking off a piece of his phallus that covers over his glans penis, he is removing the feminine part of himself on the one hand.

But what he's also doing... and this way, by cutting a piece- Listervelt> Why is that?

Removing the feminine part, once again?

Why is that?

By removing the foreskin?

Dr.

Finch> Because he's opening.

Remember, what's important in the, in the woman, in order that she conceive and deliver is that she be opened.

So he has to open, that is a symbolic of the opening.

That's number one.

He also cuts a little piece in his penis that is actually a symbol that is oval shaped like the womb.

And he draws blood.

In the process, what he is doing is recreating on himself... the feminine part of himself, the female part of himself, so that the act of creation can be his and his alone, because he has both feminine and male aspects of himself that can be expressed in creation.

So he becomes the creator and creator alone.

Listervelt> Throughout, Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World, Massey, talks about similarities between the Aborigine people or Africans in Australia and the... sacred ceremonies, etc.

of the Egyptians.

Would you discuss the significance of this?

Dr.

Finch> Well, the point that he's making is that, we've already mentioned that humankind, as modern human beings, first originate in Africa 200,000 years ago, from about a hundred thousand years ago to 30,000 years ago.

Small founder populations from the African matrix move out of Africa, go into various parts of the world and inhabit various parts of the world.

They take... what they have created in Africa with them, and that includes culture.

But Massey is saying is that the cultural elements that you find among the different Aboriginal peoples around the world can be traced back to their taproot in Africa.

And this is the same thing that you can see among the so-called Aborigines of Australia.

They have rights and practices and customs and rituals that are kemetic, or if you will, have a tremendous resonance with the Ancient African, typological system, Ancient African rituals.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪