Announcer> A production of the South Carolina Educational Television Network.

Listervelt> Good evening, and welcome to For the People and the final segment of our series with Dr.

Charles S Finch on Gerald Massey's two volume work, Ancient Egypt The Light of the World.

We begin this segment with a discussion of the concept of the judgment of the soul, as conceived by the ancient Africans of Kemet or Egypt, several thousand years before the Christian era.

Dr.

Finch> Well, we've already talked about the fact that The Book of the Dead is a, ritual of both judgment and salvation.

The judgment, of course, is sort of the crowning event of the passage through Amenta, the hidden land where the soul is undergoing, the trials, if you will, that purifies him.

Finally, the soul comes before the judge Osiris.

He must take his heart, which is symbolic of all his actions and emotions and feelings and deeds, and put it on the balance and weigh it against the feather of truth.

<Okay.> If the feather of truth, If the, if the, if the heart is weighed down by its evil deeds, then he will not become justified and he will suffer, punishments for that, for that particular judgment.

What it is, is it basically saying that the judgment.

Listervelt> I think we have the slide.

Go ahead.

Dr.

Finch> Yeah.

So here you have the balancing.

Okay.

And on the left hand side, you see Anubis with the symbol of life in his left hand leading the soul, who is awning to the balancing.

And, the heart is on the left side.

The feather of truth is on the right side.

And it says that he is justified because they exactly counterbalance one another.

You see that kind of composite monster, there.

If the soul is not justified, then that is a that is the devouring monster.

And that is the punishment of the, So... Listervelt> That is your hell.

Dr.

Finch> Yeah, exactly, (laughter) who has, whose evil deeds in life have outweighed, his good deeds?

Listervelt> Okay, let's take this other one.

Dr.

Finch> Okay.

Here you find the justified after the weighing of the hearts being led before Osiris, who, as I say, justifies him.

And that means makes him and welcomes, welcomes him to the elect, who in a sense also, means... it also means that he, the, the deceased himself, becomes as Osiris himself as he meets Osiris, he becomes one with Osiris.

Listervelt> Okay, now, what's that in the Osiris' hand?

Dr.

Finch> Okay, those are the two symbols of his sovereignty and his, dominion.

On the one hand, there is the crook of the shepherd in his right hand, which, of course, sort of, indicates that he is the protector of the soul and the protector of the righteous.

And on the left hand is the flail, which is a symbol of power, and dominion shows you that he is the lord of eternity and the, judge of the dead.

Listervelt> Here you have the good shepherd.

Dr.

Finch> Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

Listervelt> Thousands of years before Christianity.

Dr.

Finch> Exactly.

Listervelt> When the ancient Egyptians, these ancient Africans, said that Horus or Heru walked the water, what did they mean?

from a mythological and eschatological standpoint?

Dr.

Finch> Okay.

In Amenta Listervelt> In the underworld, spirit world, Dr.

Finch> In Amenta, there is was, always this, idea that the soul, as well as the bark of the sun was crossing the waters, was making its passage across the waters.

Okay.

And that was a, that was sort of, a way of describing the soul successfully negotiating or successfully making that transit.

And of course, Horus is, you know, he's a prototype of that soul.

And he is the justifier and the avenger of his father.

And so by, the, the, the way in which this was represented, that is domination or control or superseding the waters of the flood, an image of it was either sailing across the flood or walking across the flood or walking across the waters.

Listervelt> Now some people would be would be surprised to hear that in ancient Egypt you had this concept of the deity, God walking the water as you have in the Christian- Dr.

Finch> Well.

I mean, you know, I mean, it applies to so many other things in the New Testament which are thought to be uniquely Christian and obviously are not.

But it's just a, another symbolic way of rendering his control over the waters, over the flood and therefore his, his justification, his perfection, his, his way of saying that he, because one of the things that happens to the, one of the other things that happens to the unjustified is they drown.

Okay.

They go, they go into the abyss of the waters.

Listervelt> So you need to walk the water?

>> You need to walk the waters, literally in order to, in order to successfully complete the process of resurrection.

Listervelt> Horus or Heru made a man of 30 years in his baptism.

What does that mean?

Dr.

Finch> Well, you have to, you have to, go back not only to the 30 years, but to the 12 years, in the, and this is still true in traditional African practices and customs, particularly as it relates to manhood rights.

Your first manhood rights are at age 12, when you go through the rite of passage that changes you or transform you from a boy into a man.

Your final manhood rights, which, allows you the full participation in all of the rights and ceremonies of the society, is at 30 years old.

There's essentially two, 12 and 30.

This is why, at 12 years old, Mary and Joseph found Jesus in the temple discoursing with the learned father, the learned priests.

And why, at 30, Jesus began his ministry?

Because it is a type of the two fold transformation of child to man.

Listervelt> Horus, the raiser of the dead.

Dr.

Finch> Okay, this, well, I think one way in which to, understand or illustrate this is, again, go back to the New Testament with Jesus raising Lazarus in which he tells him to rise and come forth.

Well, let's analyze that name, Lazarus.

Well, first of all, let's analyze the history of Lazarus.

Lazarus has two sisters, Mary and Martha, who come to Jesus and ask him, tells him, our brother has died, and will you come to minister him?

And he says, I am the way.

I am the life, and I am the truth.

And he goes to Lazarus and Lazarus, is lying dead on his bier, on his funeral bier wrapped in linen bandages, and Jesus tells him to rise and come forth and rise.

Lazarus rises from the dead and walks out.

Well, let's analyze that name, Lazarus.

The middle of that name is the root of the name is, -azar from Lazarus.

That's the same -asar, which is Osiris.

Now, in the Egyptian ritual, Horus goes to Osiris as the son who he is his resurrecter and fulfiller and tells him to rise up, and Osiris rises up from the bier as a mummy and is resurrected.

In an earlier phase, it was Isis who resurrected Osiris.

In a later phase is Horus, who performs the act of resurrection.

But Lazarus is nothing more than the Osiris that has been resurrected.

He is a form of Osiris, so Jesus is performing the same functions of Horus and resurrecting Lazarus.

in and because that Lazarus is a late manifestation of Osiris.

Listervelt> So based on what you're saying, nobody had to give religion to the African.

Dr.

Finch> Oh my goodness.

African gave, Africas gave, Africans gave religion to the world.

So it's the opposite way around.

Listervelt> What does that mean?

Dr.

Finch> And I mean that.

They gave religion, religious concepts, religious ideas, religious symbols to the world.

Listervelt> What are some of the important and crucial areas in which the African religion, original or indigenous, what are some of the ways, some of the concepts etc.

that are different from the Christian concepts that we know today?

Dr.

Finch> One thing I think maybe one of the outstanding things is, this idea of a bodily resurrection, no African, no African or African religion ever said that you rise bodily from the grave.

That is impossible.

Listervelt> They said?

Dr.

Finch> That, They said, you rise, you rise from the grave as a spirit in a spiritual body.

That's number one.

Of course, the second thing they would never say is that there was any that, that anybody born of woman could be born of a virgin, in human or literal terms.

The idea of the virgin mother concept is not a literal historical concept.

It is a, it is a mythological concept.

Listervelt> What about original sin?

Dr.

Finch> That, they wouldn't know what you would, I mean, aside from what Christianity talks about, there's absolutely no, no precedent for the idea of original sin anywhere in African religion.

None whatsoever.

And there is, by the way, no precedent or no idea of eternal damnation either.

There is, there is no such thing as that in, in African religion or Egyptian religion.

Listervelt> That was introduced, by whom?

Dr.

Finch> Probably by well, I think the idea was started by the Persians, and it was sort of elaborated and brought to its final fruition in Christianity.

Listervelt> Massey talks about the, ethnical nature of the Bible versus the unethnical nature of Egyptian sacred writing.

Would you discuss that briefly?

Dr.

Finch> I think basically what he's saying is that, what the Hebrews of history did, having essentially brought the Egyptian Book of the Dead out of Egypt, is that they're, subsequently they're writers over a period, a thousand years turn these sacred spiritual writings of describing the passage of the soul through Amenta into literal history of their own people.

The other thing, too, is the other thing that I might add is that in the Egyptians description of Amun-Ra and Aten, they talk about how these gods are gods of all men, how they created men of different colors, different races, different nations, for the whole earth.

They talk about a universal God, whereas Yahweh is the God of the Hebrews and the Hebrews alone.

Listervelt> Discuss...Pharaoh and the Egyptians as representative of evil.

Dr.

Finch> Oh, yeah, I'm glad you said that.

Remember what we said about when a new religion supersedes an old one.

The figures and personalities of the old religion become figures of evil in the new religion.

We see it in the religion of the matriarchal religions, superseded by the patriarchal religions.

We see it in the Hebrew religion, superseding the Egyptian religion is that Pharaoh becomes their symbol of evil.

We see it in Christianity versus the Jews, that the Jews become the symbols of the children of the devil.

You know, Christians have forever been calling Jews, after all, children of the devil, the sons of Satan.

And that's the reason why they persecute Jews or have for the last 2000 years.

So as every religion supersede, comes before, the religion that it comes out of, and supersedes becomes a figure of their personifications of evil.

Listervelt> When and how was the Egyptian religion overthrown?

And you're just sort of touching on that now, really.

Dr.

Finch> Its final overthrowing was in around the sixth century when they closed down the temple of Isis in Philae That was a final, complete and utter destruction of the Egyptian religion, a process really carried out mainly to its ultimate conclusion by Christianity.

Listervelt> To what extent and in what way does the negative image of Egypt and Egyptians in the Bible keep Black people from identifying and claiming that, that, that, that country?

Dr.

Finch> Again, I think you have answered the question in, in as asking because, Black people of all religious persuasions believe totally and utterly in the, authenticity and the literal authenticity of the Bible, then they believe everything that the Bible says about Egypt and Africa, and they take on the same attitudes that Egypt, Africa that the Bible does, particularly Pharaoh being sort of a common and recurring and outstanding figure of the oppressor.

And as the evil one.

And so that Egypt becomes symbolic of the oppressor and the slaver, in fact, you know, they're are, you know, Blacks are frequently comparing their plight and their situation to that of the children of Israel, as recorded in the book of Exodus.

So, yes, I think that goes a long way to, to, toward preventing Black people from making that identification with Egypt.

Quite apart from their ignorance that Egypt was a Black civilization.

Then once they've come to that, then they've got to get over their, their conditioning that the Egyptians were the enslavers and the oppressors of the, chosen people of God.

Listervelt> What, what is the, is there any biblical reference?

Are there any biblical references about Egypt, the land of science, the land of mathematics, the land, Egypt as a Egypt, and the role she played as a great contributor to world civilization.

Dr.

Finch> Now, is there a what again?

Listervelt> Is, are there any references, biblical references?

Dr.

Finch> A few.

<Uh huh> A few, kind of backhanded references in whereas I think it's Isaiah.

Isaiah is mainly a diatribe against Egypt, as is Jeremiah.

But there are in that diatribe, there's a few references to the power and the might and the glory of Egypt.

But that's about all that is said.

Listervelt> Briefly, a couple of years ago, the so-called Ethiopian Jews were in the news.

What can you tell us briefly about, Africans and Judaism?

Dr.

Finch> Well, Judaism comes out of Africa because the first Hebrews, the first Hebrews of history were by definition African.

That changed over the course of history as so many things do.

Listervelt> You're saying African.

Dr.

Finch> Black Africans from Egypt and Ethiopia.

Okay.

And even Tacitus said, Eusebius said so.

Strabo said so.

And...said so.

But as I said, the logic, the internal logic of Exodus also would have to lead you to that conclusion anyway.

So on the one hand, there was that connection.

Now, the Falashas or the bid of Israel seemed to be a people who were converted to historical Judaism around the sixth century BC by Jews who were leaving Israel, fleeing from Israel under the impact of these Assyrian, you know, the Babylonian invasion, you know, as much as, the, the Old Testament, criticizes and castigates Egypt, time and time again, you find Hebrews and Jews going to Egypt for asylum and for safety against their enemies.

Time and time again, Egypt was a haven for Hebrews and Jews.

And this occurred, around the sixth century BC, 600 BC.

And a group of these Hebrews essentially apparently made their way as far as Mora and into Ethiopia.

And, eventually they either converted or settled down in Ethiopia and probably became the ancestors of the Falasha.

Listervelt> Okay, final question.

What would you want Black people, those who have watched this program, this series, what would you want them to walk away with?

Dr.

Finch> Well, I guess two things.

And these are general things.

And hopefully they would spur them and stimulate them on their own to begin to fill in the gaps and, and to recollect, recollect that memory.

Listervelt> Because we have only touched the surface.

Dr.

Finch> Yes, but I guess the point is to understand one thing.

Mankind, humanity and mankind began in Africa and civilization with everything that comes with civilization, science, religion, philosophy also began in Africa once, and that is with Black people, like themselves, their ancestors.

Once you can really accept that fundamental reality, everything else will fall into place, or I think there's a better chance that a lot of other things will begin to fall into place, because that means you've got to do one thing.

Either, you know, you've got to deal with that one way or the other.

And for many, that means that there will be born in them a stimulus to go out and fill in the gaps in their own lives.

Listervelt> Okay.

Thank you, Sir.

Listervelt> If you were to give a warning to someone that was about to read Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World, or someone that might be watching this series, what would that warning say?

Dr.

Finch> Leave all, all preconceptions behind.

Be ready to, be ready to forget everything that you learned and to relearn it Be ready to, look at everything in the world, and particularly, everything that you have been taught, everything that you took in with mother's milk.

Listervelt> Because once again, Massey's main theme thesis is what?

Dr.

Finch> Massey's main theme or thesis, fundamentally, of course, is that all the things that we consider, the symbolisms and teachings and doctrines of Christianity, certainly since the Council of Nicaea and really Judeo Christianity come out of an African matrix, that the fundamental templates of those religions, that is the models of the symbolisms of those religions, the doctrines of those religions, come out of the African experience, particularly as distilled through ancient Egypt.

<Okay.> And so that if you're, if you're going to understand those, if you're going to understand anything about the religions that you profess to believe, then if you want to know and understand that religion at it's truest essence, you can go only one place and that is Africa.

Listervelt> Before we go any further, let's take a look at the guiding thought from Gerald Massey, and we'll have, we'll take key zero right now, please.

And he says, quote, this is from Ancient Egypt, The Light of the World.

In this way, the Egyptian wisdom registers the fact that the pigmy was the earliest human figure known, and that this was brought into Egypt from the forest of inner Africa.

And the record made in the mythology.

And this mode of registering the natural fact, the Egyptians trace their descent from the folk who were the first in human form, that is, from the pygmies.

Dr.

Finch> Absolutely.

Good.

They have that.

They show the slide there.

The first known modern human type, what, that was what we call Homo sapiens, sapiens, anatomic, the modern man, that is the people, the original people, who are the same as all 5 billion people who inhabit the planet came into being or emerged in East Africa, some 200 to 300 thousand years ago.

This is not merely an opinion.

This is certainly not hearsay.

This is an operative scientific fact, buttressed, documented, verified by all the, anthropological and biomolecular data that has been brought to bear on this subject.

These earliest types were what we would today call or were certainly very similar to what we would today call, quote, "pygmies" who are really the trois, the Bushmen, who are really the San.

And these people represent the people who are live in the Kalahari Desert, the so-called Bushmen or the San, the people who live in the forest or the Congo, the so-called pygmies or trois, represent the remnants of the first type of humanity.

And this was the type that emerged first in East Africa 200,000 years ago.

This was a type that eventually populated the rest of the world, and in fact, you can find their remnants as the Aboriginal peoples in places like India, Southeast Asia and the South Pacific.

You know, we think of Asia as being a place where people of Mongoloid descent lived.

True, they lived there, but they were later the first people in India.

And they're still there, by the way, in Southeast Asia.

And in the South Pacific were Black Negrito, pygmy Bushmen type.

I'm using words like pygmy and Bushmen because that's what people understand.

But, really, those are really kind of derogatory, but I'm just using it so people know who I'm talking about.

The Egyptians, Massey's reference to the Egyptians veneration of the pygmy is absolutely true.

It's shown in, in, in, for example, the iconography of the ancient Egyptians.

One of the earliest and oldest and most important gods was Ptah.

When the Egyptians or the people who gave rise to the Egyptians first chose to represent a god in human form.

They represented as a pygmy.

But one of the oldest representations of Ptah, for example, is as a pygmy, and he was one of their most important of all deities, Ptah, T-H-A, P-T-A-H Listervelt> P-T-A-H Dr.

Finch> That's right.

Not only that, particularly in the early or Old Kingdom, so important were pygmies to the ritual of the Pharaonic kingship that the pharaohs were in the habit of, of sending, monumental or vast expeditions deep into the heart of Africa, literally down, excuse me, up the Nile into the southern Sudan, into Uganda, to bring back an emissary from a pygmy who would they would bring back up to Egypt.

And these were then, as even now, were dangerous, perilous journeys, two, three, four years, sometimes in completion, all to, to, get a, of a pygmy to bring back to Egypt to dance, the dance of the God.

Because the only, true form of the sacred dance that could be done could be done only by a pygmy.

And in fact, one of the titles that the Pharaohs used to take it was an honorific.

In other words, it was a title that you would give the Pharaoh to praise him was as a dancing dang or dancing pygmy.

So, what Matthew said is absolutely true.

There has been work done of the, pygmy, so-called pygmy mythology and religion, and it shows that, that the pygmies had a, a figure, a religious figure, or a divine figure who was almost identical to the Egyptian Osiris.

The ancient Egyptians made a complete copy, if you will, or a complete representation of their world in the heavens.

They sort of reconstituted in the heavens.

Now, very early on, they were stargazers, and they were able to observe and make records of the movements and activities of various heavenly bodies.

So astronomy begins with them.

One of the things they learned very early is that the earth tilts at a 23.5 degree axis from true vertical north.

When it does that, the Earth, the axis, the Earth, when it revolves or rotates, wobbles like a top, when wobbles like a top, that 23 and a half degree axis, which is our magnetic north, it slowly revolves around true north or the North pole, the ecliptic, taking 26,000 years to do so.

This is the great year.

What they did after they determined the great year, which took maybe may have taken them 26,000 years of astronomical observation to do so, they, in effect created a great circular clock, if you will, an imaginary clock, mythological clock that was defined by that 26,000 year great year.

And they divided up into 12 arcs or 12 months.

They put the zoo types that we talked about into the heavens on this clock to define each arc or each segment, which was an age.

This is a so-called zodiac of today.

The zodiac is a Greek word basically meaning animals.

And the reason why are, zoo.

And the reason why is because these were zoo types or animal types that were put there, and we know them conventionally, Taurus.

Aries, the fishes.

Listervelt> But the original meaning and purpose of it was what?

Dr.

Finch> Okay, well go.

<Go ahead, go ahead.> I'm going to get to that.

<Go ahead.> Now,... What, really the purposes of it was in the heavens, really to write out in the heavens the progress of the perfected soul in the heavens, in the different as related as related to the sun.

Because remember, the sun and the soul are two symbols for one another.

Sterling Stuckey> They renamed themselves and reclaimed, in a sense, an important, measure of identity in the process.

So they were not altogether unmindful of the cultural factor.

(silence) Sterling> This region, the Congaree Swamp, region, was one that we were talking about sometime back in relation to, folk tales.

As one readily sees, it puts one in touch with elemental forces of nature, just as it undoubtedly put African slaves in touch with those forces, the mysteries of, of life and, ageless attempts on their part to interpret, to decipher, to make, to make sense of those, of those mysteries in relation to, man's relationship to the invisible forces that, that at times appear to control human activity and human life.