[piano intro] - Hello.

I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to "Side By Side."

My guest today was a star basketball player in college.

After she graduated, she embarked on a professional journey, sparked by a dinner table conversation she had with her parents.

She grew up in Cleveland.

She became a medical doctor, a health equity champion, and a leader who soon will be in charge of an institution responsible for training more medical professionals than anywhere else in North Carolina.

Today, we meet Dr. Ebony Boulware, the dean of the Wake Forest School of Medicine.

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[bright music] - Dr. Boulware, welcome to "Side By Side."

You are the important person, the dean of the Wake Forest University School of Medicine.

That's quite a position, but let's be clear on this.

You were a star basketball player in college.

You gotta take me on this journey.

How did your interest in field hockey and basketball, you ended up being in such an important medical position.

Tell us, please.

How did that happen?

You should have been in WNBA.

You should have been playing somewhere around the world.

- Thank you so much for having me.

It's really an honor to be here, and I will say about young people joining sports, sports is a great way to learn about teamwork, partnership, leadership, and I've always been driven to be a part of a team, always been driven to win, and to be a part of excellence, and I think those core values are what also led me to become a leader in medicine.

- And went to undergrad?

- [Ebony] At Vassar College.

- At Vassar College.

You majored in English?

- Yes.

- [Nido] Is that unusual?

English majors to go into medicine?

- I think, at the time, it was a little bit more unusual.

- [Nido] Versus biology, for example.

- Yes, I think many people, especially when I was entering medical school, were focused on the sciences as their majors.

- Yes.

- And I was an English major, but I grew up in a family of two doctors, so I had some confidence about just taking the pre-medicine courses.

- [Nido] Yes.

- But I found that being an English major and in liberal arts was very, it informed how I work with people and how I think about things, and so it's been very beneficial, especially as I think about the research career that I've had and thinking about important problems and how to articulate those and how to communicate with people.

- Yeah, for sure, and you need those skills more than ever in your position today, running a complex organization as a school of medicine.

You went to Duke University?

- [Ebony] Yes, I did, for medical school.

- Medical school, you are an internal medicine?

- [Ebony] General internal medicine.

- General, and is that the way you say it?

General internal medicine?

- Yes.

- Well, which means what basically?

You handle everything?

- Basically, a doctor for adults.

You know, you come in.

You need primary care.

We focus on adults and adult medical problems primarily.

- And then your first position was at Johns Hopkins?

- Yeah.

I did my training at University of Maryland.

That's where I learned my clinical training, and then I went to Johns Hopkins for a research fellowship, where I learned how to study the practice of medicine, and then stayed there doing that fellowship for three years, and then went on faculty there for about 12 years.

- And you came from there to Wake Forest?

- I came from Johns Hopkins to Duke.

So I was at Johns Hopkins for the first decade of my career or so, then the second decade of my career at Duke, and then to Wake Forest University School of Medicine.

- When you were in Duke, you were a professor at Duke, or you were practicing in?

- I was a professor.

I was the director of the Division of General Internal Medicine at Duke, and I was the director of the Clinical and Translational Science Institute, where we focused on taking discoveries from the laboratory and into the community.

- And when you came to Wake Forest, did you make that transition immediately to the dean, or were you a professor at Wake Forest?

- Straight to the dean.

- [Nido] Yeah.

- Yeah.

- That's quite an accomplishment.

Congratulations to you.

- Thank you.

- Do you still play any basketball?

- Uh, a little bit.

A little bit.

A little bit.

- A few moves here and there?

- I have a 17 and 18-year-old children, and I still tried to get out there until recently.

- [Nido] Yes?

- Yes.

- You're like the coach or the trainer or both?

- More coaching than actually playing.

Let's put it that way.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, let's talk about medicine for just a moment.

You guys have expanded into Charlotte.

- [Ebony] Yes.

- Because of some of the M&A activity that's happened with Wake Forest.

What is it that Wake Forest School of Medicine is doing in Charlotte?

- Well, I don't know if you know this, but Charlotte is one of the largest cities in the United States that hasn't had a four-year medical school.

So we are thrilled to come to Charlotte and expand our programs there.

We're building out a full medical school with the full four years of education.

We're also building our research programs there, enhancing faculty.

So we're really focused on, you know, the full spectrum of activities for medical education and research.

- And you already have the hospitals because of Advocate Health and all of that.

- [Ebony] Absolutely.

- So you have those facilities in place.

How does that affect you?

I mean, you could be going.

You live in Winston-Salem.

Right?

- I live in Chapel Hill still.

- [Nido] Oh, you live in Chapel Hill?

- So I haven't moved yet.

Yeah.

- Yeah, so you grew up in Cleveland.

You went to Vassar.

You went to Duke.

Then you went back to Maryland.

Then you went to Johns Hopkins, and you went back to Duke and you gave up basketball and you got into medicine.

- [Ebony] This is the life of an academic.

- You gotta write a book.

You gonna write a book.

[Ebony laughs] I'll buy the first copy of that book.

So you live in Chapel Hill, and drive every day to Wake Forest and/or Charlotte?

- Yeah, so both to Winston-Salem and to Charlotte weekly.

- [Nido] I see.

What keeps you in Chapel Hill?

- I have a family there.

I have children that are still- - In high school and all of that.

Yeah.

And what is the most com complex part of your job?

Is it dealing with intelligent, engaged, shall I say, demanding faculty?

- We love our faculty.

We love our students.

I think the most complex aspect of the job is a growing- - Do you love them unconditionally or there's some- - Unconditionally.

- Unconditionally, okay.

- Unconditionally.

Unconditionally.

Truly wonderful students.

Truly wonderful faculty.

It is an expanding school, and expanding one school with two campuses, so it's a very exciting, explosive time for the school, and also our growth with Advocate Health is very exciting.

So I think just the dynamics of change are probably the most complicated aspects of the position.

- You're not practicing medicine today, are you?

- I have been not practicing since my recent transition.

- [Nido] Since your deanship.

- Yes.

- I mean, I can't imagine you being a dean and practicing at the same time.

It'd be pretty tough.

So, when you get up in the morning, just give me an example of a day.

I know no two days are alike, but, you know, I'm fascinated to see what other people do and how they live their life.

You have a family, so work-life balance is very important to you.

You took on a very demanding position.

Clearly, it's a great achievement for you, on merit, perhaps by design, and what does it look like?

You get up in the morning and what?

- I get up in the morning.

I go for a run.

- [Nido] Check 600 emails.

- I try not to check my emails.

As soon as I wake up, I go for a run for an hour.

I meditate for- - You run for an hour?

- [Ebony] Yes, I do.

- Every morning?

- Yes, I do.

I meditate.

- [Nido] Are you running away from something or?

- Just running towards- - Running towards good health and better health.

- Good health, good health.

I meditate every morning, 20 minutes.

I get up and make breakfast for my son.

You know, get into the car.

Get started on emails.

Do some meetings.

Arrive.

Meet with several people.

Do planning for the school.

A lot of strategic planning.

A lot of problem-solving.

- [Nido] A lot of meetings.

- A lot of meetings.

Go out and meet with folks in the community.

Talk to our alumni.

Meet with boards.

Meet with department chairs, faculty, students.

So it's actually a very exciting position with a lot of variety.

- Yeah, but you're not gonna tell me, I noticed you left the end out of that.

You're not gonna tell me you get back home and cook dinner.

- Sometimes, I do.

- Really?

- I sometimes do come home and cook dinner.

- You've learned how to manage energy and time then.

- [Ebony] Yes.

- Perfectly, because, at the surface of it, it sounds improbable.

- It is time management and efficiency, and thinking about how I spend my energy and expend it is important.

So I do think- - [Nido] And having a good team around you, - Absolutely.

A great team is important.

- What is the toughest part of your job?

- It's- - Not necessarily the most complex, but the toughest.

Is it dealing with people issues?

Is it finding resources?

Is it fundraising?

Is it regulatory matters?

- I would say that the most challenging part is having the vision and getting everybody into that vision.

- [Nido] Yeah.

- So we have a big vision to be the best academic learning health system in the nation through our education and our discovery and our innovation, yet we're also transforming at the same time.

So there are a lot of on-the-ground concerns that we take care of.

Meanwhile, we're chasing the big vision.

So the challenge really is to have the activity that we're doing day in, day out really lead to that big vision.

- Yes.

Your president of the university is also an MD?

Yes or no?

- She's a PhD.

- Is she a PhD?

Okay.

So, you got a lady president.

You got a lady dean of the medical school.

This is pretty cool.

- [Ebony] Yeah.

- You know, this is setting the example for so many that the road ahead is possible for those who have dedication, a sense of awareness, and willing to execute and do well in life.

You have two children, did you say?

- Yes.

A boy and a girl, yeah.

- A boy and a girl.

Are they both gonna follow in Mom's footsteps?

- I don't think either one of them is going to follow Mom's footsteps.

- That's 'cause they don't want to run an hour in the morning and do 20 minutes of meditation.

That's interesting.

They have their own.

So the third generation is not following up the first and second.

- Yeah, not necessarily.

Exactly.

- Yeah.

That's interesting.

So, what did you find uniquely different about the... We'll talk about the Winston-Salem campus for a minute, 'cause that's sort of the mother hand, versus let's say your presence at Duke.

Did you differences in the communities, in the cities, in the culture, in the strategic direction, in administrative viewpoints?

You pick whatever you want.

- Both are wonderful.

I'll say about Winston-Salem, it's a wonderful growing area.

There's a tremendous investment in innovation.

One of the wonderful things that I've enjoyed is seeing our institute for regenerative medicine really grow.

- Tony Atala is a good friend of this show.

- Yeah.

Just was awarded $150 million.

- [Nido] Yes, I know.

Yes.

- For reinvestment in the area.

- [Nido] He's an amazing guy.

- Yes, so that exciting explosion of- - And Don Flow is the chair of the board at the university.

- [Ebony] Yes, he is.

- And he's an incredible leader.

- Yeah, so incredible leadership in Winston-Salem, which has really allowed for the institution to grow, which is why I've been so excited to join.

- Yeah.

- Why is it, two questions.

Why is it so difficult to get into medical school, a reputable medical school like your own, and why don't we have more medical schools?

- Well, we had 12,000 applications for our class last year of 140 spots, so the demand is quite high.

- Well, not just the demand of students who want to become MDs.

The demand in communities that are devoid of the fullness of medical attention and care.

- Right.

Well, we are seeing growth in the number of medical schools and our second campus is a part of that growth and trying to meet the need.

We are gonna have a shortage of physicians, nurses, a number of healthcare professions in the next 20 to 30 years.

- As we all age and live longer.

- Absolutely, so we do have a need to grow the institutions of higher education with regard to medicine, and so we're working on that at Wake Forest.

- But you're part of the problem.

You've created systems to allow us to live longer.

- Yeah, exactly.

- You know what I mean?

- We've been too successful.

Too successful.

- It's your problem.

You solve it.

- Yeah, exactly.

- So, yeah, it's very difficult to get into medical school, but there's an emergence of nurse practitioners and PAs now that so many medical offices are having, often a person doesn't see an MD, see a PA. What troubles you about healthcare, we'll say in North Carolina?

What troubles you about that?

- I think what's troubling is that we have the best possible healthcare in the world, but not everybody can get it.

- As in rural areas?

- Rural areas, racial and ethnic minorities, historically underserved areas are not getting access to the care that we have available.

- And why is that, Dr. Boulware?

Why is that?

- You know, part of it's insurance.

We don't have insurance for everybody, so not everybody can access our care.

Some of it's location.

We don't always are located in rural areas, for example.

We have a dearth of physicians and other healthcare practitioners that are in rural areas.

Part of it is people's trust in our system.

Do they wanna come in?

- [Nido] Really?

- It's a mixture of different factors.

Yeah, absolutely.

- Really?

I didn't think trust in the system would be an issue.

- Yeah, trust in healthcare has always been an issue with folks getting access to care, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's the main concern.

The main concerns really are social determinants of health, whether people have the resources, access to care.

Do they have resources to get to care?

Do they have time to get to care?

Do they have the support that they need?

- Yeah.

I'm gonna ask you a sensitive question.

I hope you'll accept it in love and with understanding.

You know, I asked Condoleezza Rice one time this question.

I interviewed her right here, and as you know, she's the youngest woman ever, to my knowledge, the only woman of color to become the provost at Stanford University.

Not to mention Soviet expert and classical pianist and secretary of state and all the rest, and I asked her this question, and how did you do it?

This was my question to her.

How did you do it?

Now, in her case, you know, she grew up with a family with limited resources.

Her dad had to rent a piano literally so she can play a piano, and she achieved what appears to be the impossible.

Not in one realm, but in a variety of realms.

How did Ebony Boulware achieve what she did?

I mean, you've had a beautifully balanced and successful life.

You seem to have your act together.

You know, you exude confidence and you command respect.

You're an example.

So many others who need to know your story and need to aspire to do what you have done.

Tell me.

What is your secret?

I know parents were wonderful, educated, but how did they do it and so on?

- Well, first, it's an honor to even be in the conversation with Dr. Rice because, you know, standing on the shoulders of people like Dr. Rice and my parents who were early pioneers in terms of gaining professional careers and making success.

In my own case, you know, my own grandmother could not get to college because she had to clean houses, and my father was part of the first generation of my family to get an education, a college education, let alone go on to medical school, and so really standing on generations of people who've sacrificed for that, and I've always kept that in mind and at the forefront that it's very important to work hard, stay focused, and, you know, keep my goals in mind, and that's kept me aligned, but also recognizing that my success is coming off of the backs of many people who've sacrificed before me.

- Yeah, and the context of my question wasn't only about, you know, people of color, but also about gender, that, you know, we're seeing more and more people who are breaking, I don't wanna say glass ceiling.

I'd refer to it as what seemed to be the norm in our frame of reference and going on to do unbelievable things and proving that it can be done and therefore encouraging generations of young people that they too can be, if disciplined and focused, they can also grow.

So, you know, that's very interesting.

I don't know that I've ever met a star college basketball player who rose to the deanship of a medical school.

I know some who became CEOs of businesses.

I know some who, and you certainly know many.

Are you unique in that regard?

Do you know of another person who's done that?

- There are probably many student athletes that went on into medicine, but that was a big focus of my early, of my young life.

- But not just focus on medicine, but became a dean of a medical school.

- Yeah.

- [Nido] It'd be interesting to find out.

- It would be interesting to find out.

I haven't polled my colleagues to find out who was engaged in athletics.

- Yeah.

It'd be very interesting to find that out.

As you look forward and you see the challenges that lie ahead, you mentioned, of course, the growth in Charlotte of the medical school in Charlotte.

You mentioned some of the concerns we have in North Carolina, vis-a-vis access to healthcare.

We talked about we're all living longer.

We talked about pharmaceuticals have become much more advanced, and other kinds of medicinal or solutions.

What is it that, look out 10 years for me and tell me where are we gonna be as a nation vis-a-vis healthcare?

- Well, we're gonna be an aging nation for sure, and the hope- - Yeah.

I hope so.

- Yes, we are.

We are going to be.

- I still got lots of things I wanna do.

- Yes.

We are definitely going to be an aging nation.

Our hope is that we're doing healthcare better and we're making sure more people can get access to healthcare.

So my number one concern is making sure that everybody can have access to healthcare and have their best possible- - Are we statistically proving that we're doing that?

- We're not actually.

We're heading in the wrong direction in some areas.

So where we want to do this, we are improving the rates of healthcare insurance.

So, for example, North Carolina just took on Medicaid.

So that's an important advance, and where we see that states have taken that on, where we have more access to healthcare, people do have better health outcomes.

So that's an improvement, but we're not seeing the narrowing that we'd like to see.

For example, in many of the disparities that we're seeing in terms of health for rural individuals or people who are racial and ethnic minorities, we're still seeing big gaps in terms of health and health outcomes.

So I'd like to see in 10 years that we've made an improvement there.

I think we can expect that we're gonna see a lot of technological improvements.

- [Nido] Yes.

- For sure, we're seeing more care being done in people's homes outside of the healthcare system and healthcare coming to where you are.

So I think we're gonna see a huge explosion in that, and the use of things like artificial intelligence.

- [Nido] Robotics, et cetera.

- Robotics, et cetera.

That's really explosive.

So we can expect a lot of exciting innovations.

- [Nido] That's gonna change everything.

- It is gonna change everything.

- Yeah, including medical professionals who were not necessarily trained or educated to do all that.

- Exactly, so, well, think about becoming a medical student now.

We're training people entirely differently, how to use technology, how to use technology to assist your thinking and your decision-making and all the activities.

So it's a really exciting time to be a medical student or a student in healthcare in general right now.

- Re hospitals keeping up with all of that?

- Yeah, absolutely.

Hospitals are adopting new technologies, figuring out how to take care of more people better, faster.

So it's really an exciting time in medicine.

- So part of your important responsibility is obviously attracting the best of the best stellar faculty.

The other part is retaining them, having a sustainable future.

How difficult is that and how competitive is that?

- It's very competitive.

We're fortunate at Wake Forest University School of Medicine to have an outstanding faculty, and we do everything we can to keep them with us as they're making incredible discoveries.

It is a competitive area, so we wanna invest in people and make sure we're out in front and making sure that we're growing their programs.

We've had a huge growth in our research funding over the last several years, and so we're very excited to be able to invest in our faculty in that way.

- I talk to a lot of MDs who are part of systems, and there's some discontent in, I think at least, you know, this may be conjecture on my part, but I think it's based in fact to some degree, that as the systems grow, and I'm not talking about Wake Forest necessarily, but, generally, doctors are making less money, you know, and working just as hard and are not, therefore, as interested in staying on.

You know, I have a lot of buddies of mine who are choosing to retire, for example, which creates even greater challenges for us.

What is your observation on that and how do we resolve some of that?

- So there was just an interesting study that came out last week in one of the JAMA journals looking at burn-out rates and the rates at which physicians in particular take vacation and actually are on vacation when they're out of the office, and found that when physicians were working in the electronic health record, or not taking vacation when they're actually out of the office, that they're much more likely to have burn-out.

We know we have very high rates of burn-out in our profession, and so across the entire field, we're working hard on ensuring that physicians in particular, but nurses as well and others who are really on those front lines have the right types of rest and integration and professional fulfillment so that they want to stay with us, because we need this group of people.

They are our heroes.

If we think about COVID and the tremendous personal sacrifices folks made, it was really unbelievable.

We really leaned hard on people.

So it's our responsibility to make sure people feel fulfilled in their careers.

- On your run this morning, you looked up to the heavens, and I'm sure you have a heart filled with gratitude for your own journey.

- Absolutely.

- What are you most grateful for?

- Grateful for the opportunity to contribute, to help people live longer lives, better lives in the most equitable ways.

That's what really drives me.

I'm also grateful to be able to train that next generation of leaders that are coming behind me.

I spend a lot of time training folks, and that's the most gratifying component of the work that I do.

- Are you happy or are you bothered that your children don't wanna follow in your footsteps?

They're following in your footsteps, but I mean professionally.

- I don't know.

For them personally, I want them to do what they want to do.

- [Nido] Be happy and be passionate.

- But I think it's really important that we continue to grow our profession.

I'd be delighted if they do decide to come into medicine, 'cause this is a very important area where we can really make a difference.

- Yeah.

Dr. Ebony Boulware, I'm just grateful to meet you and get to know you.

- Likewise.

Thank you.

- You are certainly an impressive person, and since I'm planning to live a long time, I may need you somewhere down the line, so I've gotta be really nice to you.

Thank you so much for being with me on "Side By Side."

- [Ebony] Thank you so much for having me.

It's been a pleasure.

[bright music] [bright music continues] - [Announcer] Funding for "Side by Side with Nido Qubein" is made possible by.

- [Narrator 1] We started small, just 30 people in a small town in Wisconsin.

75 years later, we employ more Americans than any other furniture brand, but none of that would have been possible without you.

Ashley.

This is home.

- [Narrator 2] For 60 years, the Budd Group has been a company of excellence, providing facility services to customers, opportunities for employees, and support to our communities.

The Budd Group.

Great people, smart service.

- [Narrator 3] Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally, thanks to our teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated, your local bottler.