REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ESTEVAN RAEL-GALVEZ, WELCOME BACK.

>>ESTEVAN: IT IS DELIGHTFUL TO BE BACK WITH YOU, LORENE.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU WERE LAST ON WHEN YOU WERE OUR STATE HISTORIAN, YOU DID SOME AMAZING PROJECTS ONE OF WHICH OF I LOVED, THE NEW MEXICO DIGITAL HISTORY PROJECT.

THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT SOMEONE HAD PRESENTED TIME, PLACE, PEOPLE, AND STORIES OF NEW MEXICO IN A DIGITAL FORMAT AND YOU WON A HUGE NATIONAL PRIZE, THE BEST IN THE NATION BY THE NATIONAL PUBLIC HISTORY COUNSEL.

BUT I WAS LOOKING AT HOW YOU GOT HERE AND I WAS QUITE CHARMED BY, YOU GOT YOUR DEGREE IN CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY AND HISTORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, ANN ARBOR, WELL THE TITLE OF YOUR DISSERTATION, "IDENTIFYING CAPTIVITY AND CAPTURING IDENTITY," WHICH IS SUCH A WONDERFUL RESONANCE OF THOSE WORDS AND IT WAS REALLY COMPELLING.

THE REST OF IT IS "NARRATIVES OF AMERICAN INDIANS SLAVERY IN NEW MEXICO AND COLORADO FROM 1776 TO 1934."

BUT THAT KIND OF TITLE THAT JUST MAKES THE MIND KIND OF REJOICE AND WHATEVER IT WAS I WAS GOING TO READ IT.

SO, AFTER YOU GOT YOUR DOCTORATE AND YOU EMBARKED ON A CAREER AS A HISTORIAN, WOULD YOU TELL US THE STEPS BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.

>>ESTEVAN: IT'S BEEN A REMARKABLE CAREER, SO THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION TO SAY A LITTLE BIT IN TERMS OF IT HAS BEEN REMARKABLE AND A GIFT FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT JOURNEY.

TO START OUT AS A STATE HISTORIAN OF NEW MEXICO, GO ON TO BE THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AT THE NATIONAL HISPANIC CULTURAL CENTER.

>>LORENE: WHICH WAS HUGE AND HOW BIG IS THAT CAMPUS?

>>ESTEVAN: FIFTY-ONE ACRES.

>>LORENE: YEAH WITH A THEATER WITH THAT, CLASSROOMS WITH IT, RESTAURANTS.

>>ESTEVAN: I USED TO SAY WHEN I WAS A STATE HISTORIAN THAT I WANTED TO MAKE HISTORY MORE ACCESSIBLE, I WANTED TO STAGE HISTORY AND I FOUND THOSE STAGES AT THE NATIONAL HISPANIC CULTURAL CENTER.

>>LORENE: YOU SURE DID.

>>ESTEVAN: AND SO MANY OTHER THINGS.

SO IT WAS SUCH A JOY TO WORK WITH SUCH A PROFESSIONAL STAFF IN THE MUSEUM, IN PERFORMING ARTS, EDUCATION, EVERYTHING SO IT WAS WONDERFUL.

I WAS THEN RECRUITED TO BECOME THE SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF HISTORIC SITES AT THE NATIONAL TRUST FOR HISTORIC PRESERVATION IN DC, WHERE I WAS ACTUALLY ALWAYS ON A PLANE OR A TRAIN.

I OVERSAW ALL OF THE HISTORIC SITES IN THE PORTFOLIO AT THE NATIONAL TRUST.

SO ONE DAY I WAS IN THE PHILLIP JOHNSON GLASS HOUSE IN CONNECTICUT, THE NEXT DAY IN CALIFORNIA, IN LOUISIANA.

SO I WAS ABLE TO DO WHAT I HAD ALWAYS DONE WHICH WAS UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF PLACE AND STORY.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ESTEVAN: AND SO THAT WAS A WONDER.

I RETURNED BACK TO NEW MEXICO AND I OPENED UP A CONSULTING FIRM, CREATED STRATEGIES 360, AND BEGAN DOING ALL KINDS OF PROJECTS AND SOME OF MY FAVORITES WORKING WITH THE GIRL SCOUTS IN BOTH SAVANNAH AND NEW YORK CITY, WORKING ON THE CULTURAL PLAN HERE IN SANTA FE, SO I WAS WORKING WITH MULTIPLE CLIENTS.

>>LORENE: THERE WAS ONE THAT I LIKED WAS IT AS DIRECTOR OF CREATIVE STRATEGIES 360, YOU DID THE MANITOS COMMUNITY MEMORY PROJECT.

>>ESTEVAN: THE MELLON FOUNDATION FUNDED A PROJECT, THEY WERE MOST INTERESTED IN WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR A COMMUNITY TO DEVELOP ITS OWN ARCHIVES AND THEY WERE INTERESTED IN AND REMAINED INTERESTED IN RURAL COMMUNITIES, ITS AN AMAZING PROJECT.

FOR THE INDO-HISPANO MANITOS CHICANO COMMUNITIES OF NORTHERN NEW MEXICO, SOUTHERN COLORADO, AN ENTIRE REGION TO BEGIN TO SEE THEMSELVES REFLECTED IN A DIGITAL ARCHIVE.

AND THE THINGS THAT WE HOLD AT HOME THOSE PHOTOS, THOSE DOCUMENTS, THOSE ARTIFACTS, AND SO THAT PROJECT REMAINS ONGOING, I WAS JUST DELIGHTED TO HIRE MY OWN REPLACEMENT, DR. PATRICIA PEREA, WHO IS ASSURING THAT PROJECT FORWARD RIGHT NOW.

>>LORENE: AH, GOOD.

NOW, ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED YOU TO COME IS TO CELEBRATE THIS INCREDIBLE GRANT THAT YOU HAVE GOTTEN, $1.5 MILLION DOLLARS FROM THE MELLON FOUNDATION AND THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU APPLY FOR, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, NO, THEY COME TO YOU AND THEY SAY, "WHAT IS YOUR PASSION, WHERE CAN YOU DO THE MOST GOOD IF WE GIVE YOU A GRANT?"

THEY GIVE YOU THIS HUGE GRANT SO THAT IS LIKE NEWS MAKING THAT A NEW MEXICAN SCHOLAR AND HISTORIAN CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGIST WAS GIVEN THIS HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY TO DO A PROJECT THAT KIND OF ROCKED ME BACK ON MY HEELS.

SO FIRST OF ALL THE TITLE HAS ONE OF THOSE RESONANCES AND I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN THAT AND THEN I HAD FIRST THOUGHT, WELL IT IS PERFECT NEW MEXICO TOPIC AND THEN WHEN I FINALLY REALIZED IT IS HEMISPHERIC, IT IS GLOBAL, I THOUGHT THIS IS A STORY THAT HAS TO BE TOLD.

SO, TELL US THE TITLE AND WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO.

>>ESTEVAN: I AM SO HONORED TO BE ABLE TO WORK WITH A TEAM THAT I AM BUILDING RIGHT NOW ON THIS PROJECT.

I AM HONORED THAT THE MELLON FOUNDATION BELIEVED IN THIS PROJECT.

ELIZABETH ALEXANDER AS A PRESIDENT OF THE MELLON FOUNDATION IS TRANSFORMING HOW WE TALK ABOUT RACE, HOW WE TALK ABOUT BELONGING, ALL OF THESE ISSUES.

THE MELLON FOUNDATION IS, I AM SO GRATEFUL FOR THEIR SUPPORT AND I SEE THIS AS SEED MONEY BECAUSE IT IS A MONUMENTAL PROJECT THAT DESERVES A LOT OF SUPPORT.

IT IS ENTITLED, "NATIVE BOUND, UNBOUND ARCHIVE OF THE INDIGENOUS ENSLAVED."

AND THE INTENTION IS TO BUILD A DIGITAL REPOSITORY THAT IS PART DATABASE SO YOU WILL BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE NAMES, THE DATES, THE ARTIFACTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE WHO WERE ENSLAVED FROM 1495 ALL THE WAY TO THE 20TH CENTURY WHEN THE LAST SLAVES CLOSED THEIR EYES FOREVER, FOR THE LAST ENSLAVED PERSON CLOSED THEIR EYES FOREVER.

SO WE ARE GATHERING DOCUMENTS, PHOTOS, STORIES, ARTIFACTS, AND THEY WILL BE MADE ACCESSIBLE THROUGH A DIGITAL PORTAL.

IT IS ALSO IN PART, AT LEAST THE WAY I ENVISION IT, ONCE THAT DATA IS GATHERED IT WILL BE ABLE TO CREATE DIGITAL VISUALIZATIONS, DATA VISUALIZATIONS, TIME LINE PART EXHIBITION.

IT WILL ALSO BE A LITTLE BIT OF A REFLECTION OF A 1619 PROJECT, WHICH IS THE GATHERING OF ESSAYS AND THEY CAN SAY MUCH MORE ABOUT THAT WONDERFUL PROJECT THAT HAS BECOME A LIGHTNING ROD FOR MANY INDIVIDUALS THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I BELIEVE IN THAT HAS INSPIRED PART OF THIS PROJECT.

BUT ALSO GETTING US AS A NATION TO THINK ABOUT THOSE PIVOTAL DATES, THE FOUNDATIONAL MOMENTS WHEN PEOPLE WERE CAPTURED AND BOUND IN THIS INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY.

>>LORENE: THERE IS SOMETHING SO INDISPUTABLE ABOUT DOCUMENTS FROM THE TIME AND I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SOME AND YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT THEM, BUT YOU KNOW WE HEAR STORIES CULTURALLY AND THEN PEOPLE IN THIS POLARIZED TOXIC PARTISAN WORLD WILL MAKE STATEMENTS OR GO ON A RANT ON ONE WAY AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, TOO.

BUT WHEN YOU HAVE A DOCUMENT FROM SAY 1740 THAT DESCRIBES SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO THINK IS HAPPENING, THERE IT IS IN QUILL AND INK AND THE BEAUTIFUL HANDWRITING THAT THEY ALL HAD.

BUT YOU LOOKED AT IT AND THOUGHT, "WELL I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE THIS, HERE IT IS IN BLACK AND WHITE OR PARCHMENT AND GREY."

>>ESTEVAN: SURE.

>>LORENE: SO I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO GIVE US AN INTRODUCTION TO SOME OF THESE DOCUMENTS AND THIS IS JUST A MINOR PART, BUT THEY WERE SO PERSUASIVE TO ME.

>>ESTEVAN: YES, I WOULD LOVE TO.

IF I MAY, JUST LOOKING AT THE TITLE OF THE SHOW, REPORT FROM SANTA FE , I WOULD LIKE TO JUST RECOGNIZE THE LAND UPON WHICH WE STAND.

RIGHT THAT THE TANO LAND, THE TEWA LAND, BUT IN HONORING IT, I REMEMBER AN ANCESTOR, AN ANCESTOR NOT ONLY OF MINE, BUT AN ANCESTOR OF SO MANY PEOPLE.

SHE WAS ONE OF THE VERY FIRST INDIVIDUALS WHO WAS CAPTURED ON THIS LANDSCAPE IN THE 1580S, SHE CAME TO BE KNOWN AS DONA INES.

SHE WAS TAKEN DOWN BY SLAVERS INTO MEXICO CITY AND SHE WAS ONE OF THE INDIVIDUALS THAT CAME UP WITH THE ONATE EXPEDITION IN 1598.

THEY TOOK HER OUT TO HER PUEBLO, A PUEBLO THAT NO LONGER EXISTS, IN THE GALISTEO BASIN AND SHE WAS TANO AND SHE NO LONGER RECOGNIZED, SHE HAD BEEN GONE FOR WELL OVER A DECADE FROM HER FAMILY.

THEY WERE ALL GONE BY THAT POINT, SO SHE REMAINED, MAYBE SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BECOME PART OF THE CONQUEST.

THEY REFERRED TO HER AS "ANOTHER MALINCHE."

SO TYING THAT WOMAN TO THE ORIGINAL CONQUEST IN MEXICO OF LA MALINCHE, AT THAT POINT WAS POWERFUL BUT SHE RESISTED THAT, SHE WOULD NOT BECOME AN OBJECT OF THE COLONIZATION.

THOUGH SHE HAD TO ALSO, PERHAPS, ACCEPT HER OWN FATE, SHE WOULD STILL BE AN ENSLAVED WOMAN, BOUND IN THIS LANDSCAPE, LIVED AND DIED IN THIS CITY THAT WE LIVE IN.

HAD TWO SONS, AT LEAST, AND ALL WOULD BE NAMED MARTINEZ, ALL OF THOSE DESCENDANTS HARKEN BACK TO HER.

SO I THINK OF INDIVIDUALS LIKE DONA INES FROM WHICH I DESCEND, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DESCEND AS WELL, BEFORE I GET INTO THE DOCUMENTS.

WE HAVE ONLY A FEW DOCUMENTS, WE DON'T HAVE HER BAPTISM, WE DON'T HAVE THAT PERIOD THAT SHE LIVED IN MEXICO CITY.

SO THERE ARE SO MANY DOCUMENTS THAT ARE MISSING, BUT THERE ARE A FEW THAT CONTINUE TO EXIST TO THIS DAY.

I THINK OF ANOTHER ANCESTOR, ALL OF THESE I RETRIEVED FROM WHEN I WAS DOING THIS RESEARCH, BUT THIS WAS A PADRON, THIS WAS A CENSUS THAT WAS DONE IN SANTA FE IN 1750.

THE VERY FIRST FAMILY THAT IS LISTED IS THE FAMILY OF MANUEL SAENZ DE GARICU AND THERE ARE THREE INDIVIDUALS LISTED IN THAT HOUSEHOLD, JUANA, ANTONIA AND MATEO, ALL LISTED AS INDIOS IN THAT HOUSEHOLD.

AND I THINK OF THOSE INDIVIDUAL LIVES AND WHY THEY MATTER IN TERMS OF RECOLLECTING THEM.

I AM A DESCENDANT, DIRECTLY OF ANTONIA, AND SO, BUT WHETHER WE ARE ABLE TO REMEMBER THEM AND DOCUMENT AS OUR ANCESTORS OR WHETHER THEY EXISTED IN THEIR OWN RIGHT IN 1750.

WE DESERVE TO REMEMBER THEM.

SO THAT IS ONE OF THOSE DOCUMENTS THAT I WANTED TO JUST TALK ABOUT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>ESTEVAN: BUT AGAIN AS WE SCAN AND DIGITIZE AND PLACE INTO CONTEXT THESE DOCUMENTS FOR THE PROJECT, WE WILL BE ABLE TO REMEMBER THOSE LIVES HOPEFULLY MORE WHOLE.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ESTEVAN RAEL-GALVEZ ABOUT HIS PROJECT "NATIVE BOUND, UNBOUND" AND I REALLY WOULD LOVE TO LOOK AT MAYBE ANOTHER ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS.

>>ESTEVAN: SURE.

THIS DOCUMENT FROM 1714, WHICH WAS AN ORDER FROM THE GOVERNOR, JUAN IGNACIO FLORES, INSTRUCTING ALL, IT WAS A BANDO, IT WAS A LAW INSTRUCTING ALL, THAT THE APACHES THAT WERE BEING CAPTURED AND SOLD AND TAKEN OUT OF THE KINGDOM OF NEW MEXICO AS IT WAS OFTEN REFERRED TO, MUST BE BAPTIZED.

WHAT IS FASCINATING ABOUT THIS DOCUMENT, AGAIN, BOUGHT AND SOLD, FIRST OF ALL, SO THEY ARE CLEARLY BEING MOVED ACROSS AS COMMODITIES.

BUT HE INSISTED THAT THEY MUST BE BAPTIZED BEFORE THEY ARE TAKEN AWAY, OFTENTIMES BECAUSE THEY DIE IN ROUTE, AGAIN, THAT SORT OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE THAT THEY MUST BE SAVED THROUGH THE WATERS OF BAPTISM.

BUT HE COMPARES IN THIS DOCUMENT TO THE AFRICAN SLAVE TRADE, "I HAVE EXPERIENCE," HE SAID, "WITH THE PORTS ALL OF NEW SPAIN'S WHERE AFRICANS ARE BEING BROUGHT IN AND THE MOMENT THEY HIT THE PORT, THEY ARE BAPTIZED BEFORE THEY ARE SOLD AWAY."

SO THESE TWO NARRATIVES OF SLAVERY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING ARE BOUND TOGETHER, RIGHT, AFRICAN ENSLAVEMENT AND INDIGENOUS ENSLAVEMENT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, THAT WAS ONE THAT REALLY, REALLY CAPTURED ME BECAUSE IT WAS NOT THE APACHE'S IDEA, YOU KNOW, TO BE BAPTIZED IN ANOTHER FAITH WHEN THEY HAD A PERFECTLY GOOD PASSIONATE INDIGENOUS FAITH OF THEIR OWN.

BUT THAT AND THE COMPARISON BETWEEN THE AFRICAN SLAVE THAT WAS VERY POWERFUL.

>>ESTEVAN: AND DOCUMENTS LIKE THIS WHICH ARE BROAD, ARE IMPORTANT, BUT WHAT I LOVED THAT I HAVE BEEN DOING AND WHAT THE TEAM IS DOING IS GATHERING BAPTISMAL RECORDS FROM ALL OF THESE INDIVIDUALS.

EVEN BEFORE THIS LAW WAS PUT INTO PLACE, WE HAVE NAME AFTER NAME AFTER NAME AND EACH OF THOSE STORIES MATTER.

RIGHT, THEY ARE OUR ANCESTORS, THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT LIVED IN THEIR TIME AND PLACE AND THEN LOOKING AT RECORDS FROM ZACATECAS, MEXICO, AND PAGE AFTER PAGE, JUST OF THESE INDIVIDUALS FROM VARIOUS NATIONS.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

DON'T YOU HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH OF A FAMILY?

>>ESTEVAN: YOU KNOW, THIS STORY IS ALSO ONE OF LEGACY.

SO THIS IS WHEN I WAS DOING SOME ETHNOGRAPHIC WORK IN THE 1990S, I WENT TO A NEIGHBOR IN THE VILLAGE OF COSTILLA MRS. MARTINEZ, AND SHE SHOWED ME THIS PHOTOGRAPH AND SHE STARTED TO TALK ABOUT THE FAMILIES, THE BERNAL FAMILY, THAT WAS PICTURED IN BESIDE THIS WELL.

AND I ASKED HER, "LA OTRA FAMILIA?

THE OTHER FAMILY IN THE BACKGROUND, THE ONE THAT ARE HIDDEN INTO THE SHADOWS?"

"OH," SHE SAID, NO ERAN BUENO," SHE PAUSED, "ERAN COMO FAMILIA," THEY WERE LIKE FAMILY.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING FAMILY AND BEING LIKE FAMILY AND THAT IS IN PART THE STORY OF SLAVERY, HERE AND PERHAPS ANYWHERE.

THAT INDIVIDUAL WAS AN ENSLAVED, LIKELY UTE OR PAIUTE WOMAN THAT LIVED IN THAT BERNAL FAMILY IN COSTILLA.

AND IT BECAME AN ANCESTOR FOR SO MANY INDIVIDUALS IN THAT VILLAGE AS WELL.

>>LORENE: YOU TOLD ME AT ONE POINT THAT YOU GOT STARTED ON THIS WHOLE NATIVE BOUND, UNBOUND WHEN YOU WERE 10 YEARS OLD.

>>ESTEVAN: YES.

YOU KNOW I WAS LISTENING TO GRANDMOTHERS, SOMETIMES IN OLD AGE WHEN THEY WANT TO LET GO OF SOME OF THOSE STORIES.

I HAD TWO GRANDMOTHERS WHO WERE WILLING TO TELL THOSE STORIES.

WE OFTEN HEAR, AT LEAST AT THAT POINT, THAT THIS STORY IS SECRET, IT IS WHISPERED AND IN DEED IT HAS BEEN AND WE ARE ONLY NOW STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT OF THOSE SECRETS.

BUT MY GRANDMOTHER, DULCINEA FOR INSTANCE, ALWAYS TOLD THE SAME STORY OF HER ANCESTOR, A PAWNEE WOMAN, WHO WAS CAPTURED AND SOLD AND HOW HER HUSBAND ALSO CAPTURED AND SOLD FROM MEXICO.

SHE TOLD HIM IF YOU WILL TAKE ME WITH YOU, I WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO ESCAPE.

THE AGENCY OF THAT WOMAN, THE POWER OF THAT WOMAN TO BE ABLE TO ESCAPE FROM HER OWN CAPTIVITY, A PAWNEE WOMAN AND THEY ENDED UP IN A ARROYO HONDO, NORTH OF TAOS AND I DESCEND FROM HER.

THE OTHER STORY OF A DINE WOMAN TOLD ON THE OTHER SIDE OF MY FAMILY.

THOSE ARE THE STORIES I WAS HEARING AT THE AGE OF 10.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>ESTEVAN: BUT IT ALSO WAS A MOMENT WHEN I SAT DOWN TO WATCH WITH MY FAMILY, "ROOTS: THE SAGA" WRITTEN BY AND THEN TAKEN ONTO TV BY ALEX HAILEY.

I WAS 10 YEARS OLD AND I WAS DEEPLY INSPIRED BY THAT STORY, THAT'S WHEN IT BEGAN FOR ME AS A PERSONAL STORY, BUT ALSO WATCHING IT RIVETED ON TV, NATIONAL TV, IT CHANGED HOW WE THINK ABOUT SLAVERY IN THE UNITED STATES.

>>LORENE: BUT THERE IS SOMETHING IN THE GRANDMOTHERS TELLING THOSE SECRET STORIES THAT COMES WITH SO MUCH POWER, YOU KNOW, THAT IS BURNED INTO YOUR PSYCHE AS TRUTH.

AND I RECEIVED SOME OF THOSE STORIES NOT OF THE SAME SUBJECT, BUT THEY ALSO, LIKE THEY CHANGED ME COMPLETELY.

>>ESTEVAN: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: IT WAS A PRIVILEGE TO BE TOLD THAT PIECE OF HISTORY AND YOU ARE NEVER THE SAME AGAIN.

>>ESTEVAN: YEAH.

THESE ARE TRAUMAS THAT IMPACT US AND SO I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN THE LEGACY OF THIS BECAUSE THERE IS NOT, I USED TO WRITE THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW MEXICAN THAT HAS NOT INHERITED THIS LEGACY, BUT IT IS TRUE GLOBALLY, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE COMMUNITY ACROSS THE GLOBE THAT HAS NOT BEEN IMPACTED BY SLAVERY.

>>LORENE: SO THAT IS WHEN MY EARS, I JUST THOUGHT, OH MY LORD, THIS IS HUGE.

AND YOU ARE WORKING WITH OTHER STATES, I THOUGHT WELL YES, NEW MEXICO WAS PERFECT, THE WEST, IT WAS PERFECT.

AND THEN YOU ARE WORKING WITH MICHIGAN, CUBA, OTHER COUNTRIES, THE SCOPE OF THIS IS SO VAST.

>>ESTEVAN: I AM EXCITED AND OVERWHELMED BY THE SCOPE OF IT, BECAUSE IT IS BROAD BUT THAT IS WHAT I LOVE ABOUT IT.

SO I BEEN HAVING CONVERSATIONS, CONVERSATIONS THAT I AM SURE WILL TURN INTO PROJECT RESEARCHERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE CAROLINAS OR IN CUBA.

WE LIKELY MIGHT BRING ON SOMEONE WHO IS WORKING IN BRAZIL, SO TRYING TO UNDERSTAND NOT JUST BY THE NUMBERS, BUT BY THE NAMES, BY THE EXPERIENCES SO IT IS TRUE.

WHETHER IT IS MONTREAL OR PUERTO RICO OR CALIFORNIA, THIS PROJECT AIMS HAS BIG AMBITIONS TO INCLUDE ALL OF THOSE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES.

>>LORENE: SO I WANT TO STEP ONE STEP BACK AND SAY, WHEN PEOPLE COME TO TERMS WITH THIS HISTORY, EITHER THEY HAVE ANCESTORS WHO WERE ENSLAVED OR WERE THE ENSLAVERS, HOW CAN PEOPLE USE THIS HISTORY TO MAKE THE FUTURE BETTER, BECAUSE THE NATURAL REACTIONS ARE ANGER, GUILT, WHITE GUILT, BUT THOSE ARE NOT NECESSARILY PRODUCTIVE EMOTIONS.

THEY MIGHT BE A STEP TO ANOTHER PLAN OF ACTION BUT HOW CAN PEOPLE WHEN YOU REALIZE IT IS EVERYWHERE, SOMEBODY WAS ALWAYS UNDER SOMEBODY'S THUMB, HOW CAN WE USE THIS KNOWLEDGE AS POWER TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER?

>>ESTEVAN: YOU KNOW, I THINK OF CHILDREN, ACTUALLY, GROWING UP, WHEREVER THEY ARE GROWING UP, THEY DON'T KNOW THE FULL COMPLEXITY OF WHO THEY ARE.

AND IF WE START TO TELL THESE STORIES OF DONA INES, OF ANTONIA, OF ANY OF THESE INDIVIDUALS, I THINK WE WILL START TO SEE OURSELVES REFLECTED IN THAT PAST.

FOR ME, IT IS ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY, IT IS TRUE, WE LIKELY, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, DESCEND FROM BOTH THE ENSLAVERS AND THE ENSLAVED.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE COMMUNITY AND CONTINENT THAT HAS NOT BEEN IMPACTED BY THIS AND IF WE PULL BACK THE LAYERS IN OUR OWN FAMILY TREES, WE ARE GOING TO FIND IT, WE ARE GOING TO FIND THE ENSLAVED AND ENSLAVERS IN OUR FAMILY.

BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO SAY THEIR NAME TO UNDERSTAND, IN THE WORDS OF THE GREAT WRITER, RALPH ELLISON, "TO TRACE THE JAGGED GRAIN OF THESE STORIES AND TO TRANSCEND THEM."

I DON'T KNOW THAT WE CAN TRANSCEND THEM EASILY, IT IS A PROCESS, BUT IF WE START TO UNDERSTAND THOSE STORIES, WE BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE PAST SO THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

AS YOU KNOW, HUMAN TRAFFICKING HAS CONTINUED TO THIS DAY EVEN IN THIS LANDSCAPE THAT WE INHABIT RIGHT NOW.

AND SO WE HAVE TO BE COMMITTED TO LEARNING THESE STORIES, THAT BINDING SOMEONE, ENSLAVING SOMEONE, UNDERPAYING THEM,, IT IS PART OF THIS STORY AND THAT WE HAVE TO BE BETTER.

>>LORENE: AND WHEN YOU KNOW THEIR NAMES, THERE WAS THAT MOTIF, PARTICULARLY WITH THE POLICE BRUTALITY AND GEORGE FLOYD, SANDRA, I FORGET THE NAME, BUT THE WHOLE POINT IS TO SAY THEIR NAMES AND PASS THAT NAME DOWN AND LET PEOPLE KNOW THE STORY AND KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, TO EDUCATE THEM SO WHEN THEY SEE THINGS GOING DOWN THAT ROAD, WHAT A MINUTE, I KNOW WHERE THIS GOES, WE CAN'T DO THIS.

>>ESTEVAN: RIGHT.

I BELIEVE THAT HISTORY MATTERS, RIGHT, SO WHEN I SAY, THAT WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THESE STORIES FROM THE PAST, THAT IS CERTAINLY PART OF IT, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THE FULL COMPLEXITY.

WE HAVE ACCEPTED SOMEONE ELSE TELLING OUR STORY IN THE MYTHOLOGIES, BUT IT IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX, AND, IN THAT COMPLEXITY, WE ARE GOING TO SEE BOTH THE TRAGEDY AND THE BEAUTY.

TRULY I HOPE NOT TO SOUND, YOU KNOW, DRAW UPON HYPERBOLE HERE, BUT IT IS THOSE INDIVIDUAL NAMES THAT I THINK WHERE WE ARE GOING TO LEARN THIS LESSON AND EXPERIENCES AND AGAIN, IT IS A CONTEMPORARY ISSUE.

>>LORENE: WELL IT REALLY IS, IT REALLY IS AND THE MEDIA PLAYS INTO THAT BECAUSE WHEN THESE STORIES HAPPEN, HOW ARE THEY, HOW WAS THE ORIGINAL STORY TOLD AS NEWS STORIES, I THINK SANDRA BLAND WAS HER NAME, I'M NOT SURE.

BECAUSE IN THIS POLARIZED ENVIRONMENT, AGAIN, ONE STORY HAS SOMEBODY AS A GOOD GUY AND ONE STORY HAS SOMEBODY ELSE AS THE GOOD GUY.

>>ESTEVAN: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: TO GET THE ORGANS OF PERCEPTION BUT THEN, WELL TELL US HOW WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS.

>>ESTEVAN: STORY BY STORY, PLACE BY PLACE, PERSON BY PERSON.

YOU KNOW, FOR THIS PROJECT AGAIN THE SCALE AND THE SCOPE AND THE BREADTH OF IT IS LARGE AND I HAVE TO REMIND MYSELF, WE'LL GET IT DAY BY DAY, WE ARE GOING TO GATHER THIS DAY BY DAY.

WE ARE GOING TO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WORK WITH VOLUNTEERS WHO ARE GOING TO TRANSCRIBE DOCUMENTS, WE ARE GOING TO DIGITIZE THOSE DOCUMENTS, WE ARE GOING TO TRANSLATE THOSE DOCUMENTS.

SO IT IS A MONUMENTAL PROJECT BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING MILLIONS, MANY, MANY MILLIONS OF DOCUMENTS.

BUT I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BOTH IDEALIST AND PRAGMATIST, YOU KNOW I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS SEEMS IDEALISTIC TO DO SOMETHING SO BROAD, BUT WE ARE PUTTING TOGETHER THE FOUNDATION FOR HOW TO DO THIS PRAGMATICALLY, SYSTEMATICALLY, EVERY DAY.

I AM BUILDING THE RESEARCH TEAM NOW, THE TECHNOLOGICAL TEAM.

YOU KNOW, INCLUDING A CONVERSATION I HAD WITH SOME FOLKS IN TENNESSEE YESTERDAY WHO ARE USING WHAT THEY CALL "MACHINE LEARNING" AND THE COMPUTER TO ACTUALLY HELP TRANSCRIBE, I ASKED, HOW ACCURATE IS THAT?

95%, THAT'S NOT BAD.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ESTEVAN: THAT'S NOT BAD.

YOU KNOW WE ARE GOING TO PROTOTYPE THIS AND SEE HOW THAT WORKS, BUT FOR ME IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART IS THE PEOPLE PART.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>ESTEVAN: BOTH THE PROCESS OF INDIVIDUAL EDUCATORS WORKING WITH THESE DOCUMENTS AND THEN WE ARE GOING TO AMPLIFY THEM THROUGH THIS DIGITAL PROJECT.

>>LORENE: AND MY INTEREST IS IN THE ABUELITAS, THE GRANDMOTHERS, THE MATRIARCHS, WHO PASSED THESE STORIES DOWN, TO KIDS WHO DON'T WANT TO HEAR UNTIL THEY ARE OLDER, YOU KNOW.

SO LET'S HEAR FOR THE FAMILY TRANSMISSION AND THEN THE DOCUMENT RETRIEVAL, SO I WILL SAY HIS NAME.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ESTEVAN RAEL-GALVEZ, HISTORIAN, CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGIST.

THIS WAS WONDERFUL, THANK YOU FOR COMING AND JOINING US TODAY.

>>ESTEVAN: IT'S BEEN A JOY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, LORENE.

>>LORENE: AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM