- [Narrator 1] A production of South Carolina ETV.

- [Narrator 2] This program is sponsored in part by a grant from the Nubian study group of Washington DC.

- You see now is the time before we enter the 21st century for us to fully understand exactly and specifically what white supremacy is all about and people at all ages should know.

- What should black children be told about white supremacy?

- [Frances] Exactly what we're talking about here.

Do you see?

And more that white supremacy is a system of behavior evolved by a tiny minority of people on the planet who are genetic recessive to the majority.

And these behaviors that oppress and hold non-white people down are for the purpose of white genetic survival.

These are very unjust behavior, boys and girls or children.

- Good evening and welcome to "For The People."

And the second part of our conversation with psychiatrist, Dr. Frances Cress Welsing on white racism.

- Now I... You know, in different parts of the country, when I go around and speak, I will ask, you know, white people, "do you want your children to be colored?

Do you want your grandchildren to be colored?

Do you want your great-grandchildren?

Do you want your great-great-grandchildren to be colored?"

And they say no.

So I say, well, if you don't want that to happen, you have to be engaging in certain specific behaviors.

Do you see?

So that that issue about genetic annihilation does not occur and this is what we experience, do you see, as black people, as nonwhite- - [Listervelt] And they should be engaged in what activities?

- Excuse me?

- They should be engaged in what?

- That black people should be engaged?

- [Listervelt] No, I thought you're saying whites.

- I'm saying that the white... Do you see, we keep running into, wait a minute, there's a wall.

You know, let's say it might be a black man trying to matriculate in a job situation and he finds I can only go this far and then I run into this invisible wall.

And people might say, "oh, no, no, we're not discriminating."

But the black person knows that that wall is there, they keep hitting the wall.

Do you see?

Or they're eliminated or it's just like looking, you know, how we're looking at the Supreme Court decisions that have recently come about.

Do you see?

Oh wow, they're now going back to the old way of doing things.

The door opened a little bit and now the door has to slam back, do you see?

And we feel that pressure, and this is why we say, well, racism is going on.

Do you see?

But the white response would say, "oh, nothing is happening" - Now if more African Americans and Africans around the world were to begin to look at white supremacy in the manner that you have outlined, what would it mean in terms of how we respond to white supremacy as opposed to quote, "that traditional"- - [Frances] Well, that's why we had this chest go here.

- Okay, all right, all right.

- Because I say that the dynamic, the behavioral dynamic of white supremacy is analogous to a chess game.

We haven't looked at it in that way before.

See, we've looked at it, everybody hold hands, ring around the rosie, we're all in this together and found that, "wait a minute, that's not what's happening."

That if we understand the game of chess where you have a white side of the chess board and you have a black side of the chess board, when people sit down to play chess, because I'm not talking about hating white people.

I am talking about analyzing the behavior, but I'm not talking about hating them.

I'm not talking about destroying white people.

But I am talking about understanding this so-called game of chess.

Now, if we look further at the chess game, that in the game of chess for the last 100 years, the game has been played where white always moves first, so that the white side of the chess board is playing offense-defense, the black side of the chess board has to play defense-offense.

So I say that that's a perfect analogy to white supremacy.

White supremacy has to move against non-white people for the purpose of white genetic survival.

Do you see?

And also the game of chess is about checkmating the king.

Do you see, with white moving offensively and then defensively, that means that the real issue in the game of chess is about the white king checkmating the black king.

And I say that that is perfectly analogous to racism, white supremacy, because the primary thrust of the attack of racism, white supremacy, it's against all black people or all non-white people.

But it is most specifically against the black male because it is a black male who can cause white genetic annihilation, do you see?

And so the game of chess is about the white king checkmating the black king.

And so I say that if we begin to say, "oh, oh, it's like the game of chess," do you see?

And black people say, "oh, we didn't understand that."

- Uh huh.

- "Oh, now we can play because it's just a matter of tactics and strategy."

And I go further, you know, to look at the chess board as though each of these columns, each of the vertical columns on the chess board, we really need nine.

And if we looked at it, one column represents economics, another... Economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, religion, sex and war.

And so you have to play on those nine fronts simultaneously, which is just like playing chess.

You don't play on just one column.

You have to play and look at all of the columns at the same time.

Do you see?

And so if we now begin to say, "oh, we understand the dilemma of the white minority on the planet, that they are actually operating in fear of white genetic annihilation," do you see?

And the intention then being to survive, white genetic survival by any necessary means, and I mean any necessary means, any necessary means, then black people can begin to say, "oh, okay, okay.

That means that we have to have tactics and strategies for, do you see, black survival and maximal development in the presence of this continuous onslaught."

We will give up completely.

Do you see?

Begging and pleading that all of that energy, like 90% of our energy as black people in this area of the world is being spent begging and pleading.

Do you see?

But that would be analogous to the person who's playing the black side of chess board begging the white side to let them win.

Do you see?

So if you are playing the black side of chess board and you start asking the white side to let you make some points, they ought to take you to the nearest mental hospital.

That's not the way the game is played, do you see?

The same thing with basketball, the same thing with football.

- [Listervelt] And is that why we are back now to the Supreme Court going back and undoing- - Right, well that... You see, I say that it's that cycle.

In other words, white supremacy, you can look at it as Mr. Neely Fuller does as, you know, having four phases, establishment, maintenance, expansion, and refinement.

And so after you go into refinement, you have to go back to establishment.

- So what do you think of the goal of equality?

- Well, I think that the issue about equality, the dynamic of racism as I have analyzed it, and white supremacy is coming about because people feel unequal.

Do you see?

People feel well somebody else has a dominant genetic trait that can cause my genetic annihilation.

And so that's the game that's on the table.

And so equality, do you see?

You cannot establish equality when you have that dynamic going on of somebody feeling, "I have to have everything or I have to be in charge either because I'll be genetically annihilated or because I feel genetically inadequate.

I have to try to balance that out by having all of the money, all of the jobs, all of the houses, all of the things that are decent.

Do you see?

"And I can only feel balanced out if I'm looking at the people who I really look at as genetically dominant to me, if I can reduce them to a state of inferiority and then I can say, see, I'm superior."

Now that's the dilemma.

And I have said, when I wrote the paper to "Cress Theory of Color Confrontation," I said, the challenge to white behavioral...

It's a challenge or the challenge to white behavioral scientists to help the white population locally and globally become comfortable with its color and its minority status in the world.

- How do you do that?

- Well, first of all, by talking about it, do you see?

But this is a topic that you cannot talk about.

I mean, you know, you should take A and a thousand gold stars for having... You know, airing this kind of discussion.

This is a discussion that you cannot bring out, do you see?

If you are a black person trying to talk about racism, you can lose a job.

"Oh, she's always talking about racism."

Do you see?

No, we don't want to talk about racism.

We certainly don't wanna analyze it because if we analyze it, then, do you see, one can get rid of white supremacy, for example, if all of the non-white people on the planet begin to understand the dynamic of white supremacy, white supremacy will come to a stop.

Do you see, because one of the plays tactically, strategically on the chess board of white supremacy is a minority survives in the presence of a majority by dividing and conquering, do you see?

Pit this group of black people against that group of black people, do you see?

Which is reminiscent of the current discussion that goes something like this.

The black middle class is not interested in the black underclass.

Do you see?

Divide and conquer, do you see?

Get the black side of the chess board, so to speak, warring against, these pieces, warring against one another as opposed to looking at the white side of chess board.

And I'm sure that they have plays like that in football, do you see, where you kind of cause confusion on the other team's side so that they are not able to score and make the play.

- Let me just interject the Chinese student situation in this and get your reaction to that in terms of this divide and conquer thing.

I think you'd mentioned this to me in a conversation, how you saw the Chinese student thing.

- Well, for sure I wasn't in Beijing.

So I don't really know, but just making an analysis from this point of view of understanding white supremacy, I said that, "if there were persons who classified themselves as white and they're looking all over the globe and they're looking, oh my god, you know, the major economic activity in the world today is occurring in Asia.

Now we've got this, you know, Japanese economic colossus, and what if they were able to link up with the 1 billion Chinese people and they started trading together?

What will happen to us?

The yellow hoards might be getting together.

Well, can we cause some confusion?

Now that would just be my analysis.

I don't know.

Do you see?

But it seems very interesting to me that a short time ago, do you see, China opened its doors and then now you have all of this confusion and you have the Chinese students putting up.

Do you see?

A statue that looked to me, I mean, white styrofoam, do you see, it wasn't a yellow styrofoam.

Do you see?

So I don't know, I don't know who has been talking to the Chinese students.

Do you see?

Well, your leaders are too oppressive and so therefore you must, you know, move against them.

I mean these are... You know, these are the kinds of moves that are made throughout history.

So I just raised that question, is that what happened?

Because I certainly know that that dynamic constantly goes on amongst black people, do you see, or the relationships of whites towards black, that divide and conquer.

"Well, do you know that Frances at Listervelt was talking about you the other day in the office?"

Do you see now that prevents Frances and Listervelt, do you see, from seeing that they have a common interest?

And again, I'm not talking about hate, do you see?

But I'm just talking about understanding power dynamics and power configurations in certain kinds of power configurations under certain kinds of circumstances that will occur on our planet.

- Why is it that, say, with the European community can come together and nobody even introduces the idea of hate.

Why is it that when this kind of discussion is being held, people have to be very shook, careful and say that- - Well, it's the same fear... Do you see?

Well, oh.

If they're talking about getting out from under white supremacy oppression, they must be talking about hating us.

And I say that that comes from that deeper fear, they can harm us, do you see?

And they can harm us even goes to someone like Dr. Martin Luther King who was talking about peace and non-violence, do you see?

He was looked upon as a troublemaker and a violent man.

He was subsequently killed by a white male, do you see?

And all he was talking about was love.

Now I say again, if everybody loved on the planet, white would disappear.

Do you see?

And so therefore he has to be attacked.

And so this fear that...

I maintain, for the most part, I do not hear white behavioral scientists or white social scientists in any way addressing what is going on in the white psyche.

Do you see?

So that one of the things in psychiatry, the job of the psychiatrist is making that which is subconscious, bringing it to conscious attention, do you see?

For example, a psychiatrist might try to help a man who's having difficulty getting along with his wife.

Do you see?

And so they're arguing all the time that the psychiatrist might say, "well, you know, tell me about your childhood.

Tell me about your relationship with your mother and with your father."

Do you see?

And let's say if the child...

If the mother was punitive towards the child, now the child represses that pain.

But then when the child is now an adult and goes to relate to his wife, he can't get along with his wife, do you see?

Because of the identification, do you see, if somebody's gonna do me harm.

Do you see?

And so you help the person become aware of material that they have repressed.

Now I believe that, you know, if you say, "well, what is the origin of the white supremacy system?"

I go all the way back to Africa, thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago.

Because you know, even, you know, now the white anthropologists and paleontologists are now agreeing that human life began in Africa and the first people were black.

Now I knew that, that the first people had to be black.

- Why?

- Because you can only see black can produce all of the colors.

I can have a child that is an albino mutant, which would then be white.

Do you see, blonde hair, blue eyes, white.

If I produced an albino mutant, do you see, I can also produce black.

White can only produce white.

So white could not have produced all of the colors on the planet.

Do you see?

White being a genetic recessive trait.

So only black people could have produced all the colors.

And once you produce a mutation to albinism and you mix those together, then you have all the colors on the planet.

Which is why if somebody looked at the population in this area of the world that is called black, you will see all of the colors in the human family.

You will see all of the appearances of everybody in the human family in simply the American population that is called... You know what we call American in this area of the world.

You'll see somebody that is, you know, in terms of their physical appearance, representative of everybody and that has come about as a combination of mixing, do you see, the African with the European genetic types, okay.

- [Listervelt] You have said that whites are not always conscious of their racist behavior.

What do you mean by this?

And should it matter to black people?

Should it matter to us whether this racist behavior is conscious or not?

- Well, people often ask that, you know, if I jumped out of this chair and went over and slapped you, do you see, there might be subconscious determinants.

Do you see?

But your issue is, "wait a minute, Frances, you slapped me."

Do you see?

And I have to... You know, I can't permit that behavior to go on.

Now we can... You know, after I stop you, I can help you deal with why.

But your position is that it must stop, do you see?

And so, you know, as I said before, I don't know of anybody that is helping the white population on the planet, do you see, really focus on and look at and think about white supremacy behavior.

But that again stands to reason.

You see, that whole white supremacy dynamic that is now global evolved as a protective system of behavior for the purpose of white genetic survival.

- Do you really think that helping whites see the root cause of racism- - Is gonna stop it.

- Is gonna stop it, right?

- [Frances] I don't really think so.

Do you see?

I could wish and hope that it would.

But at a... You know, perhaps a more analytical level or scientific level, if a person constructs a survival modality, do you see, then chances are they're gonna play that out.

I think that the answer is going to come about because black people and other non-white people begin to understand, "oh, I see..." It's just like, you know, just like playing chess.

You say, "oh, I see they went into that opening, they're gonna go into thus and so, you see, system of moves."

And so from the black side, then the blacks would evolve patterns of behavior that would put that destructive behavior in check, do you see?

For example, black people can, by understanding white supremacy, they can consciously move into no squabbling and fighting amongst one another.

Do you see, because if non-white people on the planet, just imagine if non-white people on the planet earth tomorrow morning stop fighting each other, white supremacy would come to end.

Do you see?

But that constantly pitting one group of non-whites against another, do you see, North Korea, South Korea, North Vietnam, South Vietnam, all the squabbles in Lebanon, all the different units in Africa fighting, all the people in Central America fighting each other.

Now that is how, do you see... That's one major way in which white supremacy is being maintained.

But see there are a lot of very deep issues.

For example, once white supremacy is established as we have it now in this area of the world, let's just look, so that I turn on my television and let's say I could be a black child, the television is turned on and I see white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white, white.

I never see an image of myself as a black child, do you see?

Or I might see an image of myself if I'm a black male child and I'll have a hat turned on backwards and my eyes will be bucked looking up.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Those are images of inadequacy.

And so the very television is teaching me to hate myself and to admire what it is that I see.

Do you see, where I go to school and I open a textbook and I'm in the first grade or in kindergarten, I open up the textbook or in nursery school and I'm looking at the little bunnies, do you see, and they're all white, do you see?

I don't see anything that is dignifying black, do you see?

If I learn the English language or if I learn any language in the white supremacy system and culture, do you see, that's French, English, all of the languages that are spoken by people who classify themselves as white, do you see, use black as the major pejorative.

Do you see, the stock markets falls and then we call that black Monday or Tuesday.

Black people didn't have anything to do with it.

Do you see?

Where white people are engaging in demeaning, degrading sexual activities, they will call it kinky.

Do you see?

Well, that's supposed to be what black people do.

Black people won't even know about any such sexual practice, do you see?

So all kinds of negativity is dumped around the word black.

So that when a black person learns that language, they're really learning self-hate.

And as they learn self hate, and as they look at the movies and look at the television and look at the magazines and look at the newspaper, do you see, they're learning to hate black.

And so then I go to relate to you, do you see, as a black person and so my behaviors gotta be destructive until I consciously begin to understand more objectively about what is happening, do you see, and then I say, "even in the presence of the white supremacy dynamic, I will too respect myself and too love myself and highly regard myself as a black person.

And I will, meaning I'm gonna take conscious discipline, control over my behavior, and relate to other black people in a constructive manner."

- Okay, we're gonna move on a little further down the road on this, but what role do poor whites play in the white supremacy structure?

- Well, do you see, you have white people with higher incomes and white people with lower incomes and they can all come together and practice white supremacy.

I think I remember hearing something about George Wallace and, you know, I'm remembering, and so it may not be totally accurate, but I think it's accurate enough.

He said that when he first went into politics in the state of Alabama, that he thought that the chance for the poor white person would be to come together with black people, do you see, a common cause to improve education, improve health, improve housing, improve roads and whatnot.

And he said he found out that the white persons were not interested necessarily, do you see?

That was not a priority interest.

The priority interest was to feel that they were better than black people, do you see?

Now that I understand that in terms of white genetic survival, because that was true not only for the low income white person, it was also true for the upper income white person.

So I don't make those distinctions, do you see, and say, "well, okay, lower income white people are so called bad and then, you know, upper income white people are not."

No, across the economic spectrum.

- [Listervelt] How did the Jewish, attempted Jewish extinction in Germany help you in your analysis of white supremacy?

- Well, I'll tell you, you know, this is I think very interesting history.

I went to Antioch College in Yellow Springs, Ohio as an undergrad.

And my parents, when I graduated in 1957, my parents said, "what do you want for graduation?"

And I said, send me to Germany.

That was 12 years after the end of Second World War.

I said, "send me to Germany because I wanted to live with German people and ask them, did you know what you were doing to your neighbors?"

Do you see, so my parents sent me to Germany and I lived in Germany and would talk to German and would ask them, and all the German people, you know, they were nice, "Frances, come and live at our house."

So that was a very, very important kind of information that people could be nice on the surface, do you see?

But they could destroy their neighbor.

It was only later that I kept saying, "well, what does this term, what does antisemitism mean?

What... You know, what does this term semite really mean?"

If you look in the dictionary, the word semite, they say somebody who speaks a Semitic language.

But you know, every third grader knows you don't define a word with the same word.

And so I thought about that word because, you know, I consider myself a student of what happened in Germany.

Read everything about what was that behavior about.

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