- Hi, I'm Hermene Hartman, with N'digo Studio.

And today we are going to have a one-on-one interview with Reverend Dr. Frederick Haynes.

He's the pastor, Friendship-West Baptist Church, in Dallas, Texas.

He has been the pastor there for the past 35 years.

And he got there as a student.

He's the third generation of his family to pastor a church.

He's a social activist, he's a minister, he's a doctorial student, working on his second doctorial and he is a lecturer.

His ministry started while a student, at Bishop College.

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- So Dr. Haynes, I know you use hip-hop (laughs) in your sermons and Jay-Z's your favorite.

- Jay.

Oh.

- Okay, I'm a jazz person.

- Okay.

- I'm not a hip-hop person.

- All right, Miles.

- All right now, okay, gimme Miles.

But you gotta tell me about Jay-Z.

- Oh, yeah.

- What do you like?

- Well, A, I love in his poetry, he's often prophetic.

- He's a poet?

- Oh my God, without a doubt.

- Okay.

- I mean, listen, this bar is one of my favorites.

He says, "blindfolded, expected to walk a straight line.

Mind-molded taught to love you, but hate mine."

That's fire right there.

Blindfolded and then you make me walk a straight line.

Expectations, it sounds real white supremacist in terms of expectations placed on Black people.

And then mine-molded, taught to love you, but hate mine.

Piggybacking on the "Mis-Education of the Negro," or Malcolm X saying, "you've been had, hoodwinked, bamboozled, run amuck, led astray.

Who taught you to hate yourself?"

So when I hear Jay- But then Jay comes back with, and this one gets me, "I went from pauper to president because every other deal I made set precedent."

That's Black folk all day long.

And that.

we started at the bottom.

That's another artist started.

But but but but we start at the bottom and yet somehow we rise to the top because we're always, what, opening new doors, doing stuff that's never been seen before.

it's.

Real black to me.

That's Jay-Z.

That's Hhis husband.Beyonce, - I wanna get to Oxford.

- Yeah.

- You lived in England for a while.

- Yeah.

- Your dissertation, first doctorate.

- Yeah.

- To turn the world... - Upside down.

- Upside down.

- [Dr. Haynes] Yeah.

- I wanna know what you wrote about.

- Again, because of the influence of my name, because of the influence of a Jeremiah Wright, who literally pushed me, I mean, cussed me out if I was not handling my academic business.

But because of that, again, that's shaping my sense of ministry.

And at that time, there was this huge church growth emphasis and as they're talking about church growth from a Eurocentric perspective, they're talking about in a whitewashed way, homogeneity is what grows a church.

And so basically, you know, having a church that's all of a certain class and color.

And I was saying, no, that ain't what my Bible says.

And then I read this passage in Acts 17, where it says, "these who have turned the world upside down have come here also."

Right after a chapter where the church explodes in growth and it's not homogenous.

Instead, it's reaching this culture, reaching this class and confronting systems of oppression.

As I said, that's what I've seen with Trinity United Church of Christ.

That's what I've seen with other models of ministry that confront injustice, engage in activism while feeding the membership so that they see that when I join a church, it's not just about joining that church, it's about impacting.

- That's right.

- The world.

- The action.

- Changing the world.

Turning the world upside down.

And so that's what my dissertation is about.

My dissertation is about the fact that no, this Eurocentric model, which has proven over time to be not only a toxic model, but it's proven over time to be a racist model.

And so the model, the biblical model of turning the world upside down, says that you do that when you transform communities, when you fight for justice, and at the same time, you grow people.

William Augustus Jones says, "the kingdom of God is spiritually social and socially spiritual."

When you are doing the work of the church, truly, you recognize you can't be pious and avoid what's political.

You have to, and this is what Reverend Jackson has emphasized throughout his ministry, give a voice to those who are voiceless.

And God honors that.

And I've discovered at Friendship West in Dallas and countless other churches throughout the world who do this kind of work, if you major in ministry to those who are othered, to those who are dissed and dismissed, God says, I'll bless your ministry, I'll grow your ministry as you turn the world upside down.

- [Hermene] Wow, I love that.

- One of the things I studied as I was preparing for you is something that you talk about, pushing it forward.

And you talked about Frederick Douglass pushed President Abraham Lincoln.

- [Dr. Haynes] There it is.

- Into the Emancipation Proclamation.

- Yes.

- You talked about Dr. King pushed President Johnson.

- That's right.

- Into Voting Rights Act.

- Yeah.

- Jesse Jackson pushed- - Say that.

- Democratic party.

- Yeah.

- Into change.

- Yeah.

What would Freddie Haynes push for?

- Wow.

Thank you.

And that is a rich legacy because number one, I learned from all of them that moral stances are never contingent upon who's in power.

From Martin Luther King Jr. to say to LBJ, who had been the best friend we've had policy-wise in the White House.

The war in Vietnam is wrong.

He was not concerned with a popular opinion, he was making a principled stance.

And so my responsibility will be to stand on the shoulders of a Jesse Jackson who made a principled stance and said to the Democratic Party, it is dead wrong that I get all these votes.

And yet the person who wins the primary gets all of the delegates.

That's not wrong, that's undemocratic.

And because of what he did in '88, '08, Barack Obama wins the Democratic nomination.

President Clinton that's Clinton fault.

Clinton.

First, don't forget to say that.

Say not.

Obama.

Say that.

Say Clinton to Obama.

Because of the principled stand Jesse Louis Jackson.

When you think about every table having bread on the table, and the fact that Rainbow/PUSH began fighting for economic justice and whatever else you wanna say about where we are right now, we still need economic justice.

Income inequality, sadly, is still a thing.

It's something sick about living in a country where Black women make, what, 60 cents on the dollar to what white men make.

And yet, as Reverend Jackson said, when you go shopping, when you pay bills, you don't get a 40% discount.

Women, how about, you a minority.

You don't get no discount on your rent.

- Exactly.

- Or your mortgage.

- Exactly.

- Or your phone bill.

- Exactly.

- Oh, okay.

I see.

- So income inequality is still a thing, We have to fight for economic justice in every form.

How manywere bornsinesses because Jesse Jackson said, okay, if we are buying this many cars from you, we need some dealerships.

If we are doing this with your business, then we need some jobs."

And so that kind of need is still there.

- We need to go on your board.

- We need to be on your board making decisions.

Reverend Jackson, I mean, just absolutely brilliant.

Literally has us buying shares in corporations so we show up at the board meetings and make decisions.

- Have a voice.

- Have a voice.

on these various boards.

Byou can then articulatevoice, that board needs to go.

And so when I think about that, about educational equity.

I'm that in this dayhe fact who are deciding that they are going to take over education and wipe out africana studies, earrings, banned books instead of banning guns, they want to ban books.

and so when I think about that, we have to push forin the tradition.ty We musof showing upat legacy wherever people are in pain.

We've got to show up.

I went to the border, pain at the border now.

- Now, we got problems in this country right now.

One of the biggest problems we have is the migrants.

Mayor Eric Adams from New York has said, "you're destroying New York.

New York will be destroyed with 100,000 immigrants and 20,000 going to school."

- Yeah.

- What's the solution?

How do we deal with the immigrants on one hand, the migrants on one hand versus the homeless.

- Yeah.

- On the other.

Particularly the homeless who have been perhaps veterans.

- Yeah.

- In the war.

- Oh my God.

- How do we deal with this?

- My God.

- How do we balance it out?

- Yeah.

First, I think it's important for us to note, sadly, shamefully politically, the games that are being played by the governors of certain states, like Texas, and the governor of that state, the governor of Florida, having the nerve to decide that they're going to send migrants, pack these migrants as political pawns to go to cities that are led by Black mayors.

- Do you think we recognize that, face value?

- We better.

We better.

Because there's a game being played in order to set those mayors up for failure.

- [Hermene] That's right.

- They already have jobs that are not only high stress, but complex with problems that were already existing.

And so it's not accidental that they have chosen these cities run by Black mayors as the places to send migrants who came here, and now they're being misused and abused as political pawns.

That can never ever be left out of the narrative that these Republican governors are trying to establish because they're playing games with real human beings.

- That's right.

And since it is a state of emergency, this calls for all hands on deck.

- [Hermene] That's right.

- Reverend Jackson for years has said that our major cities need a Marshall Plan.

- [Hermene] That's right.

- That's what we did.

- That's right.

- To rebuild- - Germany.

- Europe.

- That's right.

- Back after World War II.

Why don't we do that now to rebuild the infrastructure, to rebuild the human infrastructure of our cities so that we do not create enemies between the unhoused who are already here and the migrants who are being misused and abused as political pawns.

- Now, to your point, they're sending migrants to the city, particularly Chicago.

- Yeah.

- In preparation to exhaust the resources for the Democratic National Convention to be held in 2024.

- Tell the whole truth.

- All right.

And in New York, you're trying to destroy New York intentionally because it is the capital of so much that happens in our country.

- There it is.

- The financial institutions, the cultural institutions, and so forth.

- Right.

- Okay, now.

- Los Angeles.

- And Los Angeles.

How do we stop it?

How do people get, or, people are not aware of this.

People are just saying, oh, it's a complaint.

It's not a complaint.

It's an action, it's a strategy.

- Right.

- How do we stop it?

- Right.

And so again, it's a state of emergency.

In a state of emergency, all hands on deck, federal, state, and local.

- Do you think the media is covering it correctly?

- Of course not.

- Okay.

Because the media follows the narrative that is concocted by the Abbotts of the world who want to make it a political game as opposed to actually seeking solutions.

And so we're offering solutions.

We're saying, okay, let's partner between federal, state, local, and on the federal level... And lemme just say this right quick.

This country can find resources when they want to solve problems.

For example, Ukraine.

And again, I'm not saying that we should not invest in Ukraine, but I am saying, if you can find 30, 40, $50 billion to support Ukraine in their effort, you can't find that same amount in order to ensure that we provide educational services, housing, food services, for not only our migrants who are coming here as political pawns, but also find those resources to build up those who are unhoused who are already here.

It's not a matter of resources, it's a matter of political will, it's a matter of political creativity.

We can do it, we've got the resources because we're showing we can come up with resources to help another country on the other side of the planet.

Well, let's do something for those who are right here.

- We are looking at the Republicans in Florida.

I think Texas, too.

- Oh, yeah.

- Trying to change the course of, trying to change our history.

Not the course of history, but trying to change the already happened history.

- Ban the books.

- Right.

- And slaves took jobs to help themselves.

Carter Woodson says this in "Mis-Education of the Negro" as he had studied the distortions in literature and history and he said, "there would be no lynching if it didn't start in the classroom."

And so when you think about the violence going on in Jacksonville, Florida where this racist terrorist targeted Black people for death, I don't think it's an accident that it took place in Florida where they are lynching the truth in Florida, and as a consequence, a grieved white persons fall for the okie-doke and decide the enemy is not a visionless governor, but instead Black people who are taking from what white people feel is theirs.

And so I think it's important that we write about it, your own point.

At the same time, it's so ignorant and so stupid.

At the same time, if we're not careful, it's that lie that is ignorant that will feed ignorant people, and before you know it, the gaslighting will result in people saying, "oh, this is truth.

This is factual."

And it's so sad how many people will believe in a lie.

it's some ignorance that is going on, in Texas, ignorance that is going on, but that ignorance will kill you.

- Hmm.

One of the things, again, that's prevailing now, Tulsa, Oklahoma.

- Yeah.

- Opportunity to correct that wrong that was clearly wrong, documented wrong, and we've got three people still living who can speak to it.

- Yeah.

- And the courts turned it away.

I know Reverend Jackson was very upset about that.

And how do we, can we turn that around?

I know you had something to say about that.

Can we turn it around?

- Without question.

We have to.

As you said, three persons who survived the Tulsa massacre.

- 106, 107, 108.

How long do they wait?

- How long do they wait?

And as far as I'm concerned, this is a mirror to this country, a moral mirror that says if we don't respond to their pain and do something for them, then we're not serious about justice.

One definition of justice has to do with restoring and repairing what was broken.

We have an opportunity, a clear opportunity to repair what was broken with persons who are living.

We're not about that justice life if we don't do something.

And the good news is, I'm hearing on the grapevine, the attorneys are basically saying, there's still another legal avenue to pursue, and we're gonna do all we can to support that effort because they deserve to be repaired.

They deserve, and that community deserves, to be healed.

Because the bottom line is, if it doesn't happen for them, for the rest of us, we can forget it.

- We'll never, reparations and so what, right?

So my final question.

You were on the that President Biden meets with.

What do you guys talk about?

What do you all tellPresid?

Well, when I get invited I haven't been invited yet.

I've I've been invited to, what I would call a time to listen to what they are doing, but with response.

Nthis is what we're doing.y a, Negotiate with the people.

but this has to be a dialog.

It has to be a relationship.

And when I'm invitedto the, becthat into existence,eak since this migrant crisis is a state of emergency, it's all hands on deck.

And I'm going to say to the president, Mr. it's time for us to show moral leadership and courage.

And if you're I need you to invest at home.

as we've said earlier, Mr. President, there is also a time now for us to if you we've always had your back going to have our back, we should be the ones to define what that looks like, because this is no top down.

You telllooks like.ving our back and we know what it looks like to have our back.

So, Mr. President, this is what we'd like to see you do.

that we can no longer afford to ignore.

Because when you think about it's projectedin 2053, thatpeople will be zero.lack if we restructure a system that is broken and a system that has been broken on us.

And so, Mr. you have the authority and we want you to exercise your authority to go ahead and use that executive peon that we're going to move forward when in this nation.arations You have that authority.

that must be done, Mr. while also calling for you to do to to convene a summit on what?

On what impoverishment, because the sad reality wealth gap in this country is black people,ing it's hurting this whole country.

And so we must, as a nation, go ahead and addressimpove.

The fact that you have millions upon millions of poor people in this country and and white .

Mand yet we color it black, and its history in this country.

you can exercise moral authority by saying, for once and for alle frobut prosperity.arcity prosperous country in the history of the world, and we're still prosperous.

And yet the prosperity keeps going up and never comes down.

Mr. president, to read the speech from Jesse Jackson in 84 and 88 and make that the agenda going forward, because that is where we are, y that we're going to proceed further and have a prosperous future as a country.

- You know, one of the things, I won't tell you who I said it to, but it was a high ranking position and I was trying to say, use the executive order.

- Yes.

- Use the executive order.

- [Dr. Haynes] Yes.

- If Lincoln freed the slaves- - With an executive order.

- With an executive order.

- Tell the truth.

- Not a congressional mandate, but an executive order.

- [Dr. Haynes] Say that.

Say that.

- The power of your pen of your office, there's nothing that you cannot do.

You want a Marshall Plan?

Make an executive order out it.

- [Dr. Haynes] Say that, say that.

- Put the number to it and just, dammit, do it.

- Say that.

- [Hermene] Unashamedly presidential.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- You agree with that?

- Without a doubt.

And what you've just said, if those in power would hear that, not only would the nation be blessed.

I mean God would honor that, but we would carve a future that would make America what America claimed it was going to be in her founding.

And so what you're basically saying to this country is what Dr. King said in that last speech.

- That's right.

- "Be true to what you said on paper."

- That's right.

- Because until you do that, this democracy is really a hypocrisy.

- So King challenged America's constitution.

- Yes.

- I interviewed Jonathan Eig who's written a prolific book on Dr. King to say, and he says, "Dr. King was a Founding Father of America."

- Yeah.

- Isn't that something?

- And it's right on point.

- It's right on it.

- He forced this country to look at itself in the constitutional mirror.

- [Hermene] That's right.

- And a mirror says, I better check myself so I can correct myself.

- So, here's another something that needs to happen.

The criteria for the president of the United States, it needs to change.

- Yeah.

- Criteria is to be 35 and a citizen.

- Yeah.

- So we get a Trump who can be indicted 91 times for a variety of actions and might be, if he wins the presidency, in a jailhouse being the president.

That needs to change.

If you are indicted and you are a policeman or a school teacher, you're fired.

- Exactly.

- So how can we have such liberty with the president, with the highest office of the land.

That has to change.

We've gotta put some amendments to that.

- Yeah.

Thank you for that.

And my prayer is that we will have the courage- - That's right.

- Of that conviction.

- That's right.

- Because there is no way that a cult leader who is twice impeached, vanquished, and a seditionist leader who literally tried to overthrow the election of this country, there's no way Mostelection theft.rageous been anything like this.

And we'rmuch harder.ave to fight and I'll be there with you.

We'to the Capitol.k down And today we come up trying to get into Capitol.

and it's amazing this.

We kept trying to hold the line and go up to the state capitol.

We want to be heard.

he should ever be allowed to campaign for office.

- [Hermene] That's right.

- Let alone eligible for office.

He should have been ineligible the moment he was indicted the first time.

But as far as I'm concerned, when he, on January 6th convened the mob, the racist mob, to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power, at that moment, he was disqualified.

- That's right.

- From ever running for office again.

And until that becomes a part of our constitution.

- [Hermene] That's right.

- Then we run the risk of that kind of cult following doing what happened on January 6th, but the next time they may be successful.

- That's right, so we've gotta change those laws.

- [Dr. Haynes] We've gotta change the law.

- That's got to be a precedent.

- [Dr. Haynes] Yeah.

- Dr. Reverend Freddy Haynes, thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- For being with us and for just a wonderful interview.

- Thank you.

- I'm Hermene Hartman with N'Digo Studio.

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