♪ THEME MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

I'M DAVID DUMKE.

TODAY WE ARE JOINED BY VETERAN OF THE IRISH PEACE PROCESS, THE REVEREND DR. GARY MASON, WHO IS A PIVOTAL FIGURE IN CONFLICT TRANSFORMATION.

WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW, GARY.

>>THANK YOU.

NICE TO BE IN FLORIDA.

>>FOR THE VIEWERS WHO DID NOT SEE YOU ON YOUR LAST VISIT, I'LL JUST REMIND THEM OF YOUR VERY IMPRESSIVE RECORD.

YOU ARE A LEADER IN CONFLICT RESOLUTION AND CONFLICT TRANSFORMATION, IN PRACTICE AS WELL AS IN THEORY.

YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK ON THE IRISH PEACE PROCESS, OF COURSE, AND YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK IN THE ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT.

I WANT TO BEGIN BY TALKING ABOUT NORTHERN IRELAND AND WHAT'S GOING ON NOW.

OBVIOUSLY, SINCE WE TALKED LAST THE BREXIT PROCESS IS WELL UNDERWAY.

WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW?

>>I MEAN, BREXIT, DAVID, IN MANY WAYS IT'S CREATED SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY.

I THINK THE FIRST THING IS MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T BELIEVE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE ALL WOKE UP THAT MORNING OF JUNE THE 17TH, 2016, WE WENT, GOOD GRACIOUS, WHAT HAS HAPPENED?

IN REALITY, THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT, WHICH WAS THE PEACE DOCUMENT, PEACE PROCESS IN THE NORTHERN IRISH CONTEXT, CREATED A SPACE WHERE PEOPLE WERE ABLE TO DEFINE THEIR NATIONALITY IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

THAT EUROPEAN IDENTITY WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO WERE CATHOLIC, NATIONALIST REPUBLICANS, WHO SAW THEMSELVES AS DISTINCTLY IRISH, FEELING PART OF THE WIDER ISLAND OF IRELAND, BUT NOT JUST THAT, FEELING PART OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

FOR THEM THAT WAS LITERALLY SNATCHED AWAY OVERNIGHT.

FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE UNIONISTS, WHO DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEY WERE ASKING SERIOUS QUESTIONS AS WELL.

IT ALSO HAS TO BE SAID, THE EU PUT SERIOUS MONEY INTO THE IRISH PEACE PROCESS, A BILLION EURO, $1.3 MILLION IN US TERMS, SO THERE'S SOME VERY SERIOUS RELATIONSHIPS THERE AS WELL.

THERE'S ALSO THE CONVERSATION AND THE DEBATE, WHAT WAS BREXIT ABOUT?

PEOPLE SAID, "OH, IT'S TAKING BACK CONTROL OF OUR OWN LAWS.

TAKING BACK OUR OWN BORDERS."

YET OTHER ANALYSTS HAVE SUGGESTED WAS THIS MORE THE RISE OF A ENGLISH NATIONALISTIC IDENTITY?

BUT THE DEBATE STILL GOES ON IN RELATION TO THAT AND WAS PROBABLY A MIXTURE OF THOSE CONCEPTS AS WELL.

AS WE ALL KNOW, WHEN A TOXIC IDENTITY CAN SPILL INTO POLITICS, AND BY TOXIC IDENTITY I MEAN MY IDENTITY IS SUPERIOR TO YOUR IDENTITY BECAUSE MY SKIN COLOR IS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR SKIN COLOR, OR MY POLITICS IS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR COLOR, IT CAN BE ACTUALLY A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

POLITICS IN THE UK AND IRELAND, NOT DISSIMILAR TO SOME CONCEPTS IN THE UNITED STATES AT THE MOMENT, HAVE BEEN PRETTY TOXIC AND FRACTURED OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

>>PARTICULARLY ON THE PROTESTANT, OR UNIONIST, OR NATIONALIST SIDE, HOW ARE THEY VIEWING THEIR IDENTITY RIGHT NOW?

DOES THAT TRUMP ECONOMIC CONSIDERATIONS, OR IS THIS STILL SOMETHING THAT'S KIND OF DEVELOPING?

>>YEAH.

PEOPLE OFTEN SAY, INTERESTINGLY, PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES GO INTO YOUR BALLOT BOX AND WE GO IN TO PUT OUR VOTE IN THE BALLOT BOX OR GO INTO THE POLLING BOOTH.

THE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION, DAVID, IS STILL PARAMOUNT IN THE NORTHERN IRISH CONTEXT, DESPITE THE FACT WE'VE JUST COME THROUGH 20 MONTHS OF A PANDEMIC, WHICH IS STILL ONGOING, AND HEALTH ISSUES ARE IMPORTANT.

FOR MANY PEOPLE THAT CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION IS PARAMOUNT IN THEIR MINDS, AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE HISTORICAL BAGGAGE OF THE IRISH CONTEXT.

WHEN PEOPLE, WHO ARE PROBABLY LISTENING TO THIS PROGRAM, ARE SAYING, "YEAH, I REMEMBER THAT LIKE 1969, FOR 30 YEARS."

THAT'S TRUE, BUT THE IRISH CONFLICT SPILLS BACK HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND HAS SHAPED LIFE ON THAT ISLAND NOW FOR CENTURIES.

THAT WEIGHT OF CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK AND IDENTITY IS VERY STRONG.

>>YOU MENTIONED BOTH WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES, I WANT TO COME BACK TO THAT, AS WELL AS COVID.

BACK TO THE IRISH SITUATION, THIS IS 23 YEARS ON FROM THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT.

WHAT IS GOING TO MAKE THIS SUCCESSFUL IN TERMS OF A LONG TERM PROJECT, OR ARE WE STILL AT A STAGE WHERE IT COULD EASILY BACKSLIDE?

>>YEAH.

IT'S ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTATION, AND I KNOW MANY OF YOUR LISTENERS AND VIEWERS WILL REMEMBER GEORGE MITCHELL, WHO'S KNOWN AS EARLY '80S THE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM MAINE WAY, TUCKED UP ON THE NORTHEASTERN PART OF THIS LAND.

A NOT MOMENTOUS DAY IN APRIL 10TH, 1998, GEORGE MITCHEL COMMENTED, "IF YOU THINK GETTING THIS AGREEMENT WAS DIFFICULT" IT WAS PAINFULLY DIFFICULT GETTING IT.

TWO YEARS OF INTENSE NEGOTIATIONS, OF HIM FLYING BACK AND FORWARD TO IRELAND TRYING TO MOVE THOSE TROUBLESOME IRISH AND BRITISH IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

HE SAID, "IF YOU THINK GETTING THIS AGREEMENT WAS DIFFICULT, IMPLEMENTING IT WILL BE EVEN MORE DIFFICULT."

I THINK THE GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE DAY, DAVID, ACTUALLY IS THAT THIS IS A 50 YEAR PROJECT.

I MEAN, IT'S GONE REASONABLY WELL.

I MEAN, WE'VE HAD SOME HICCUPS, THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

>>THIS IS A SUCCESS BY COMPARISON.

>>YEAH.

>>A LOT OF CONFLICTS LOOK AT THE IRISH EXAMPLE.

>>YUP.

I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE KEY COMPONENTS TO IT WAS THE INTERNATIONALIZATION OF THE PROJECT.

THAT IN REALITY WITH EUROPEAN INPUT, WITH AMERICAN INPUT, THERE WERE A NUMBER OF KEY ACTORS SPILLED INTO THAT SPACE AND I THINK THAT DID HELP THE BRITISH AND IRISH GOVERNMENTS THAT THEY JUST WEREN'T NAVEL GAZING AT THEIR HISTORY.

OTHER EXPERTS WHO WERE WELL MEANING AND WHO HAD THE BEST INTERESTS OF THOSE TWO LANDS AT HEART SPILLED INTO THAT SPACE.

I GUESS IN MANY WAYS IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT PARTISANSHIP, IT WAS ABOUT PARTNERSHIP, AND I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE KEYS.

>>YOU MENTIONED THE UNITED STATES CONTEXT, AND A LOT OF YOUR WORK AT RETHINKING CONFLICT HAS BEEN LOOKING AT BOTH WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WHAT HAPPENED IN NORTHERN IRELAND, ISRAEL-PALESTINE AND THE UNITED STATES.

EXPLAIN YOUR WORK IN THE UNITED STATES AND YOUR CONCERN ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.

>>PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ABOUT THE IRISH CONFLICT.

I MEAN, WHAT WERE THE ROOT CAUSES?

THERE'S A MULTIPLICITY OF REASONS, SOCIOLOGICALLY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY, THEOLOGICALLY, PHILOSOPHICALLY AROUND THAT.

TO ME, MUCH OF IT WAS ROOTED IN WHAT I WOULD CALL TOXIC POLITICS AND TOXIC RELIGION.

I OFTEN SAY TO PEOPLE, DAVID, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH A PERSON'S IDENTITY.

BE THAT AMERICAN, PALESTINIAN, SOUTH AFRICAN, GERMAN, IRISH, BRITISH, BUT WHEN YOU PUT IN ETHNO NATIONALISTIC IDENTITY INTO THAT SPACE, INVARIABLY IT MEANS MY IDENTITY IS SUPERIOR TO YOUR IDENTITY.

MY CONCERN AT THE MOMENT WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, PARTICULARLY AS I LISTEN TO SOME OF THE LANGUAGE IN THE PUBLIC SPACE, TO USE THAT FREE AS LINGUISTIC VIOLENCE, THE WAY PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING PUBLICLY ON ALL SIDES TO ME IS ABSOLUTELY TOXIC.

IT'S ALMOST A PROCESS OF VERBAL ASSASSINATION IN THE POLITICAL SPHERE, AND THAT'S ALSO SPILLING INTO CHURCH LIFE AS WELL.

I MEAN, I KNOW OF CHURCHES THAT I HAVE SPOKE IN, IN THIS NATION, WHERE PEOPLE HAVE SAID TO ME, "GARY, DON'T BE MENTIONING DONALD TRUMP OR JOE BIDEN, IT'S TOO TOXIC FOR OUR PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY DEAL WITH BECAUSE OF THE DIVISIONS."

I THINK I WOULD WANT TO SAY TO PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN A FAITH BASED PERSPECTIVE, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THERE'S MORE THAN UNITES THEM THAN JUST CONVERSATIONS ABOUT POLITICS.

THAT REALLY THOSE SHOULD BE SPACES WHERE PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER BETTER.

I KNOW WHEN I'M HERE, DAVID, I MEAN, I'M STAYING WITH REPUBLICAN FAMILIES ONE WEEK, STAYING WITH DEMOCRATS THE NEXT WEEK.

I JUST THINK BOTH THOSE CONSTITUENCIES HAVE LOST THE HUMANIZING OF THE OTHER PERSON.

I MEAN, THEY ACTUALLY SEEM TO LOOK FOR WHERE WE'RE DIFFERENT RATHER THAN WHERE WE CAN COME TOGETHER.

MOST FAMILIES I TALK TO, IF I ASK THEM THEIR HOPES AND DREAMS, I WANT MY KIDS TO DO WELL, I WANT TO ENJOY GOOD HEALTH, I WANT THIS NATION TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

THEN I'M IN A DEMOCRAT FAMILY NEXT WEEK AND THEY TELL ME EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

ALMOST LIKE SAYING, SEE THE PEOPLE I STAYED WITH LAST WEEK, COULD WE MAYBE ALL HAVE DINNER TOGETHER?

LET'S GO TO CRACKER BARREL AND SIT DOWN AND HAVE A CONVERSATION AND TRY TO RESOLVE THIS.

I JUST THINK THE POLARIZATION OF THIS COUNTRY, AND AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP IN A SPACE KNOWING WHERE POLARIZED POLITICS CAN LEAD TO, TO VIOLENCE, I WOULD SAY TO MANY FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES HERE THAT WE NEED TO BE WISE IN THE UNITED STATES ABOUT HOW WE DEAL WITH WHAT ARE DIFFERENCES, WHICH ARE UNDERSTANDABLE.

THAT'S PART OF HUMAN EXISTENCE, BUT MY CONCERN IS IF YOU DON'T THAT THIS SPILLS TOWARD SOME FORM OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, THAT LEAVES IMMENSE SCARS THAT TAKE GENERATIONS TO GET OVER.

>>YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK THOUGH AT TRYING TO PINPOINT SOME OF THE ROOT CAUSES OF CONFLICT AND DEAL WITH THOSE.

WHAT YOU JUST MENTIONED ABOUT PEOPLE GIVING YOU FRIENDLY ADVICE ABOUT DON'T BRING UP POLITICS, DON'T BRING UP TRUMP AND BIDEN, NOT FOR WHO THEY ARE BUT WHAT THEY KIND OF STAND FOR AND WHAT THEIR TRIBE STANDS FOR, IF YOU CAN CALL IT THAT.

IS THAT THE BEST APPROACH, IS KIND OF TO IGNORE THESE PROBLEMS OR PAPER THEM OVER, OR DO YOU NEED TO DEAL WITH THEM?

>>I WOULD SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE, LET'S KEEP INDIVIDUALS OUT OF THIS.

KEEP, BE IT HILLARY CLINTON, DONALD TRUMP, JOE BIDEN, WHOEVER, BERNIE SANDERS, LET'S KEEP THE PERSONALITIES OUT OF IT, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS OPINIONS, AS WE KNOW, IN CERTAIN PERSONALITIES.

I LIKE THEM, I DON'T LIKE THEM, ET CETERA.

I WOULD LOOK AT SOME OF THE CONCEPTS THAT SHAPE THIS NATION, THINGS THAT THIS PLACE ACTUALLY STANDS FOR.

I MEAN, I KNOW LOOKING BACK TO MY UNCLE JIMMY, WHO NONE OF YOUR VIEWERS WILL KNOW, BUT AS A LITTLE BOY TAUGHT ME TO SWIM.

MY UNCLE JIMMY WENT IN THE SECOND DAY OF D DAY, ALONG WITH MANY AMERICAN TROOPS, AND CANADIAN TROOPS, AND BRITISH TROOPS.

WENT IN TO DESTROY THE GREATEST SCOURGE PROBABLY THAT HUMANITY HAS SEEN.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE UNITY BETWEEN OUR NATIONS THEN AND THE CONVERSATIONS OUR NATIONS WERE HAVING, I THINK THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT AMERICANS NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT AND LOOKING AT THAT, AND ASKING IF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MARGINALIZE.

BECAUSE ONE OF THE REASONS THEY WENT IN WAS PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF NAZISM, ITS TREATMENT OF THE JEWS, ET CETERA.

IN MANY WAYS, THE SECOND WORLD WAR WAS ABOUT DESTROYING A CURSE.

THIS NATION WANTS TO STAND FOR EQUALITY.

THERE WAS NO EQUALITY IN GERMANY.

THERE WAS NO EQUALITY IN MANY OTHER SPACES IN WESTERN EUROPE, SO WHY ARE WE NOW ASKING OURSELVES ALL THESE DECADES LATER WHAT DOES EQUALITY AND HUMANITY LOOK LIKE IN THIS SPACE?

THERE'S TWO, I MEAN, AS ONE THEOLOGIAN SAID, "DEHUMANIZATION PRECEDES GENOCIDE."

THE IRONY IS THAT THERE'S TOO MUCH DEHUMANIZATION OF THE OTHER PERSON, AND YET DEEP DOWN INSIDE I FIND MANY OF THESE PEOPLE THINK ALIKE AND SHARE THE SAME DREAMS.

I THINK THE LANGUAGE THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE USED HAS JUST BEEN DETRIMENTAL TO THIS NATION.

>>IN THE UNITED STATES YOU'RE TALKING TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS GROUPS, YOU'RE TALKING TO UNIVERSITIES, YOU'RE TALKING TO PEOPLE OF ALL POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS ALL OVER THE SPECTRUM, DIFFERENT RACES.

YOU JUST WERE MENTIONING SOME OF THE COMMON THEMES YOU'RE HEARING, BUT WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DIVISIONS THAT YOU'RE HEARING THAT YOU'RE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT GOING FORWARD?

>>I MEAN, I THINK THE LEGACY OF SLAVERY INVARIABLY COMES UP, DAVID.

I MEAN, WITH THE LEGACY OF SECTARIANISM IN OUR SPACE AND HOW IT'S SHAPED OUR SPACE IN SO MANY WAYS.

IT'S IMPORTANT I THINK PEOPLE BEGIN TO ADDRESS THAT.

I THINK IT'S NOT FOR ME TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES AND LAY OUT YOU NEED TO DO POINTS ONE TO SEVEN, BUT WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRAUMATIZED AND SCARRED PEOPLE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT AND HAVE SERIOUS CONVERSATIONS AROUND IT.

I MEAN, SOMETIMES WHAT HAPPENS IN POST-CONFLICT COUNTRIES, AND THIS HAS HAPPENED SOMETIMES IN SOUTH AMERICA, PEOPLE DRAW A VERY THICK RED LINE UNDER IT AND ASSUME IT'S ALL GOING TO BE OKAY.

THE PROBLEM IS I THINK, AND I'VE SEEN THIS IN THE IRISH CONTEXT, THOSE GHOSTS COME BACK TO HAUNT YOU.

WHAT WOULD A CONSTRUCTIVE, MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION WITH ALL SHADES OF OPINION BE LIKE, WHERE PEOPLE ARE AT THE TABLE?

WHERE PEOPLE OF OUR SKIN COLOR HEAR FROM AFRICAN-AMERICANS, OR AFRICAN-AMERICANS HEAR FROM PEOPLE OF OUR SKIN COLOR, WHERE YOU CREATE A SPACE WHERE PEOPLE, TO USE THAT PHRASE I USED EARLIER, IF YOU'RE GOING TO UNDERSTAND WELL, YOU HAVE TO LISTEN WELL TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER PERSON'S STORY.

I OFTEN SAID IN MY CONTEXT, IN THE IRISH CONTEXT, I MEAN, I KNOW PEOPLE MADE CHOICES THAT I THOUGHT WERE FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG, BUT I HAD TO ASK MYSELF THE QUESTION, IF I WAS IN THEIR POSITION I WONDER WHAT CHOICES I WOULD HAVE MADE.

IT'S CREATING SPACES, WE CALL THEM IN IRELAND UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS.

I OFTEN REMIND PEOPLE AS WELL, I THINK IN YOUR SPACE AND IN MY SPACE THE WORD COMPROMISE HAS BECOME ALMOST A DIRTY WORD.

I MEAN, I KNOW THAT ALL YOUR VIEWERS AND LISTENERS TODAY ARE IN RELATIONSHIPS, PARTNERS, MARRIAGES, GRANDPARENTS, GRANDKIDS, MOMS, DADS, CHILDREN.

OUR RELATIONSHIPS EXIST BECAUSE OF COMPROMISE.

I MEAN, IF I CONTINUALLY HUMILIATE MY WIFE, MY PARTNER, MY KIDS, IT'S GOING TO CREATE FRACTURED RELATIONSHIPS.

MY WORRY IS SOMETIMES THE LANGUAGE THAT IS USED IN THE UNITED STATES AT THE MOMENT IS HUMILIATING THE OTHER BUT ALSO CREATING FRACTURED RELATIONSHIPS THAT COULD ACTUALLY TAKE DECADES TO HEAL.

HOW DO WE USE A LANGUAGE THAT ALLOWS US TO DISAGREE WITHOUT VERBALLY ASSASSINATING THE OTHER PERSON?

I THINK ACADEMICS, I THINK CHURCHES, I THINK NGOS, WOMEN'S GROUPS CAN BRING THAT INTO THE SPACE.

THIS CONVERSATION SHOULD NOT BE DOMINATED BY POLITICS.

CIVIC SOCIETY NEEDS TO BE AT THE TABLE.

>>WHAT DO YOU SAY THOUGH TO PEOPLE WHO SAY, "I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS, BUT THE OTHER GUY IS THE ONE WE CAN'T TALK TO.

THERE'S NO PARTNER ON THE OTHER SIDE."

>>WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU ASKED THE OTHER PERSON, AND I THINK THE WAY WE DO THESE CONVERSATIONS IS WE ASSUME WE HAVE TO BE DEFENSIVE OF MY OWN VIEWPOINT.

INVARIABLY I ASK PEOPLE, TELL ME YOUR STORY.

WHAT SHAPED YOU AS A HUMAN BEING?

TELL ME SOME OF THAT TRAJECTORY.

JUST THEY ALLOW THAT TO LISTEN.

WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO RUBBER STAMP ALL OF THAT, BUT AT LEAST TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS SOME KEY MOMENTS THAT SHAPED ME AS A HUMAN BEING.

HOW DO WE DO THAT?

I REMEMBER DOING SOMETHING IN ANOTHER SPACE IN FLORIDA AWHILE AGO WHERE THEY TALKED ABOUT PUTTING TABLES TOGETHER IN DIFFERENT STREETS AND SPACES, ALMOST LIKE AN OLD ENGLISH VILLAGE SQUARE, AND PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER TO SHARE AND TO LISTEN.

THE IRONY IS I THINK, DAVID, MOST OF US GET OUR OPINION OF THE OTHER NOT FROM THE OTHER BUT SOME SO-CALLED EXPERT FROM OUR OWN SIDE.

THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT ASKING THE OTHER, CAN YOU TELL ME YOUR STORY?

RATHER THAN ASSUMING THE EXPERT ON YOUR SIDE OR MY SIDE IS REALLY THE EXPERT, MANY TIMES THEY'RE NOT, BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE NOT TALKED TO THAT PERSON.

>>RIGHT.

DOES THIS REQUIRE LEADERSHIP THOUGH TO GET THESE CONVERSATIONS GOING?

SOMEONE ENCOURAGING THESE CONVERSATIONS, OR IS IT STRICTLY A GRASSROOTS BASED INITIATIVE?

>>I THINK IT'S BOTH AND.

I KNOW IN THE IRISH PEACE PROCESS LEADERSHIP IN THE PUBLIC SPACE POLITICALLY HELPED MOVE US FORWARD, BUT POLITICIANS NEVER WOULD HAVE MOVED FORWARD WITHOUT THE INPUT OF KEY CIVIC SOCIETY LEADERS WHO WERE LOOKING FOR MEANINGFUL CHANGE.

I MEAN, POLITICIANS SOMETIMES, AS WE ALL KNOW, THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS, AND WE NEED POLITICIANS SO I'M NOT KNOCKING POLITICIANS TODAY, BUT POLITICIANS MOVE IN A REALM OF POLITICAL DIALOGUE AND POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT.

CIVIC SOCIETY, SO I OFTEN SAY WE NEED TO HOLD OUR POLITICIANS ACCOUNTABLE.

WE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ELECT POLITICIANS, SO WE NEED TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

I THINK CIVIC SOCIETY HAS A ROLE TO PLAY IN DOING THAT.

>>DO YOU SEE THAT POLITICIANS HAVE BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE THOUGH WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE BRITISH OR IRISH EXAMPLE, OR THE AMERICAN EXAMPLE?

>>YEAH.

I MEAN, IN OUR CONTEXT, LOOKING AT THE PEACE PROCESS AND PARTICULARLY HOW WE LED UP TO THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT, THERE REALLY WAS A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE IN CIVIC SOCIETY.

ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT IS WE ENDED UP WITH A WOMEN'S POLITICAL PARTY CALLED THE WOMEN'S COALITION, WHERE A GROUP OF WOMEN CAME TOGETHER WHO HAD LITERALLY NO BACKGROUND IN POLITICS, BUT FELT THEY NEEDED TO BE AT THE TABLE.

I MEAN, STATISTICS SHOW, I MEAN, ANYONE LISTENING TO THIS WHO KNOWS ABOUT PEACE BUILDING OR CONFLICT TRANSFORMATION, OR MAYBE THEY DON'T, BUT WHERE WOMEN ARE AT THE TABLE- >>THEY'RE INTEGRAL FOR THE SUCCESS.

>>YEAH, IT'S GOING TO BE MORE SUCCESSFUL.

I MEAN, HOW CAN YOU HAVE A PEACE PROCESS WHERE IT'S DOMINATED BY PEOPLE OF MY GENDER?

YOU RULE OUT 50% OF THE POPULATION.

ALL VOICES NEED TO BE REPRESENTED AT THE TABLE IF IT'S GOING TO BE COMPREHENSIVE.

TO ME, THAT'S GOOD POLITICS BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY MEANS MORE PEOPLE WILL BUY INTO THE PROCESS.

IF YOU EXCLUDE PEOPLE AND MARGINALIZE PEOPLE, PEOPLE REACT IN WAYS AT TIMES THAT CAN BE ADVERSARIAL.

>>YOU MENTIONED HOW LANGUAGE CAN BE POWERFUL, AND IT OF COURSE ENFORCES A NARRATIVE, IT ENFORCES A BELIEF THAT I'M SPECIAL, MY IDENTITY IS SPECIAL AND CORRECT.

THAT'S A HISTORICAL NARRATIVE AS WELL.

HOW DO YOU GET AROUND THAT, THE PROBLEMS NOW, WHEN YOU HAVE RHETORIC RATCHETING UP IN THE UNITED STATES?

>>YEAH.

I THINK POLITICS AS WELL NEEDS TO STEP INTO THAT SPACE.

I MEAN, I OFTEN DESCRIBE SOMETIMES POLITICIANS ARE LIKE OUR POLITICAL PARENTS, AND I OFTEN SUGGEST IF OUR POLITICAL PARENTS ARE BEHAVING BADLY THERE'S A CHANCE THAT PEOPLE ON THE GROUND ARE GOING TO DO THE SAME.

IT'S THE TIME THIS TAKES TO HEAL.

I MEAN, WE ALL KNOW THAT PHRASEOLOGY THAT STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT ME.

I MEAN, LANGUAGE CAN BE ABSOLUTELY TOXIC, AND MEAN LANGUAGE CAN SCAR AND VERBALIZE AND DESTROY PEOPLE.

I MEAN, LIKE MOST KIDS IN THE PLAYGROUND, THE SCHOOL, ALWAYS GET INTO DIFFERENT SCUFFLES, I'VE PROBABLY FORGOTTEN ABOUT ANY PLAYGROUND SCUFFLE I HAVE, BUT I CAN REMEMBER THINGS PEOPLE SAID TO ME 20 YEARS AGO THAT STILL SCARRED ME.

WE ALSO NEED TO REALIZE THAT THERE IS THAT LINGUISTIC VIOLENCE AND VERBAL VIOLENCE.

HOW DO PEOPLE OF FAITH, OBVIOUSLY FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT PEOPLE OF FAITH, HOW DO THEY BRING WORDS INTO FRACTURED SOCIETIES THAT AT LEAST ALLOW HEALING AND UNDERSTANDING?

WHILE COMING FROM A CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE I MAY USE THE WORD I WANT TO BRING GRACE INTO THIS SITUATION, SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT SAY, "WELL LOOK, I WANT TO BRING GENEROSITY INTO THAT."

WE'RE BRINGING WORDS INTO THOSE SPACES THAT ALLOW HEALING TO HAPPEN.

THE PROBLEM IS, IN THE IRISH SPACE OVER BREXIT AND THE BRITISH SPACE OVER BREXIT, AND THE US AT THE MOMENT, POLITICS IS SO ADVERSARIAL.

HOW DO WE SHIFT THAT DIAL AND WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

BECAUSE THE LONGER IT GOES ON, THE MORE DIFFICULT IT'S GOING TO BE FOR THIS NATION TO FIND SOME MEANINGFUL HEALING.

POLITICS IS NOT ABOUT DESTROYING OR WIPING OUT ANOTHER HUMAN BEING, IT'S CREATING A SPACE WHERE EVERYONE CAN FLOURISH, EVEN WHEN THEY DISAGREE.

>>I'VE OF COURSE HEARD YOU SPEAK MANY TIMES, AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT YOUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WORKING IN NORTHERN IRELAND, PARTICULARLY WITH PROTESTANT MILITIAS AND OTHERS WHO ARE ON THE LOYALIST SIDE.

YOU'VE SAID THAT THAT OFTEN IS MUCH HARDER, SPEAKING TO YOUR OWN KIND WHO DISAGREE ON TACTICS AND APPROACH, THAN TO YOUR SUPPOSED ADVERSARY OR ENEMY.

EXPLAIN HOW THAT COULD APPLY TO THE US, I GUESS.

>>YEAH.

IT'S ALMOST AS IF PEOPLE FEEL YOU'RE LETTING THEM DOWN IF YOU TALK TO THE OTHER PERSON.

I KNOW IN THE IRISH PEACE PROCESS IT WAS CRUCIAL THAT PEOPLE REACHED OUT ACROSS THE POLITICAL DIVIDE, BECAUSE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO SAW THEMSELVES AS BRITISH, PROTESTANT, UNIONISTS, LOYALISTS, TO RESOLVE THE CONFLICT.

IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO SAW THEMSELVES AS IRISH CATHOLIC NATIONALIST REPUBLICANS.

I MEAN, THE LATE JOHN HUME WAS A SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC AND LABOR PARTY LEADER WHO WAS A TOTAL ADVOCATE OF NONVIOLENCE.

HE SAID, "THIS IS NOT ABOUT LAND.

THIS IS ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN PEOPLE."

I MEAN, I'VE BEEN COMING BACK AND FORTH TO THE UNITED STATES NOW FROM 1988.

NUMEROUS FRIENDS HERE.

HOSTED THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FROM THE UNITED STATES IN IRELAND, AND ACTUALLY IT DOES GRIEVE ME TO SEE PEOPLE I KNOW WHO ACTUALLY DON'T SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER.

I MEAN, AND POLITICS IS TEMPORAL AS WELL.

WE HAVE TO ALSO REALIZE THAT.

I SUPPOSE NOT BEING OVER PREACHY OR THEOLOGICAL ABOUT IT, BUT I KNOW ANY OF YOUR LISTENERS OR VIEWERS THAT ARE LISTENING TO ME, WHEN I'M LYING ON MY DEATH BED AND THEY'RE LYING IN THEIRS, I CAN ASSURE YOU THE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION OF NORTHERN IRELAND WILL NOT BE PARAMOUNT IN MY MIND.

I'M ASSUMING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS LISTENING TO ME WILL NOT BE THINKING OF REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT POLITICS.

WE'LL BE THINKING, HOW DID I LIVE MY LIFE?

HOW DID I TREAT MY FAMILY?

HOW DID I TREAT MY NEIGHBOR?

HOW DID I MAKE THIS GREAT NATION OF THE UNITED STATES A BETTER SPACE?

>>I WANT TO SUGGEST YOU DON'T MAKE IT A BETTER SPACE BY VERBALLY HUMILIATING OR ASSASSINATING YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENT.

THAT'S NOT STOPPING DISAGREEMENT, BUT THERE'S SUCH A THING AS DISAGREEING WELL.

MY CONCERN, PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AT THE MOMENT ARE NOT DISAGREEING WELL.

HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT NARRATIVE?

>>WE'RE TALKING A LOT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES AND IRELAND, BUT I ALSO WANT TO APPLY SOME OF THE LESSONS TO THE OTHER AREA YOU'VE WORKED EXTENSIVELY ON, WHICH IS THE ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN PROCESS, OR LACK THEREOF.

HOW ARE THINGS GOING THERE?

PEOPLE HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE ARAB-ISRAELI PEACE PROCESS FOR DECADES NOW.

WHY SHOULD THERE BE ANY REASON FOR HOPE IN THIS SITUATION?

>>I HAD A GROUP OF 12 PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS WITH ME LITERALLY THREE OR FOUR WEEKS BEFORE WE CAME TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHEN THEY ARRIVED, IT WAS DESPAIR.

I MEAN, THE FIRST NIGHT IT WAS JUST, I MEAN, IT WAS JUST ABSOLUTELY DESPAIR.

I SAID TO THEM, "LOOK, YOU'RE NOT HERE TO GET A BLUEPRINT FOR THE MIDDLE EAST."

IT WOULD BE ARROGANT OF ME TO SAY, "OH, THE BLUEPRINT, THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT IS THE RECIPE FOR THE MIDDLE EAST.

HERE'S THE 67 PAGES.

AWAY YOU GO."

I JUST WANT YOU TO LEAVE HERE IN FIVE OR SIX DAYS TIME SAYING, "MAYBE, JUST MAYBE IT'S POSSIBLE.

>>ALMOST, DAVID, IT'S JUST ALMOST LIKE PUT A LARGE KIND OF HOOVER VACUUM INTO THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN THEATER AND SUCKED THAT VERY IMPORTANT WORD, HOPE, OUT OF THERE.

MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT'S INTRACTABLE, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THROUGH THIS.

I THINK ONE OF THE POSITIVE THINGS AND TO PAY TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES, TO CONGRESS AND THE SENATE, IS THAT THEY'VE PASSED THAT MIDDLE EAST PEACE FUND.

IT MAY NOT HAVE SEEN, AND MANY AMERICANS PROBABLY DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT, BUT LAST DECEMBER $250 MILLION WAS PASSED.

THE IDEA FOR THAT WAS REALLY TO TRY AND EMPOWER GRASSROOTS PEACE BUILDING.

THAT'S NOT SAYING POLITICS IS IRRELEVANT, BUT IT'S REALLY THAT TWIN TRACK APPROACH.

WE NEED POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, BUT IF POLITICAL LEADERSHIP ARE NOT EMPOWERING CIVIC LEADERSHIP, THE DIFFICULTY'S GOING TO BE THAT CIVIC LEADERSHIP ARE LEFT BEHIND.

THE OSLO ACCORDS WERE A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF THAT, WHERE IT WAS CLASSED BY MOST COMMENTATORS AS A VERY ELITIST CONVERSATION WHICH NOBODY KNEW ABOUT.

THEN WHEN IT BURST, PEOPLE FELT, "I DON'T HAVE ANY OWNERSHIP OF THIS."

I THINK TO GIVE THE UNITED STATES CREDIT IN RELATION TO THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO CREATE A PROCESS THAT BEDS IN POSSIBILITIES, NOT DEFINITIVE, POSSIBILITIES WHERE PEOPLE MAY BEGIN TO THINK A LITTLE BIT WIDER, AND I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL, EMPOWERING CIVIC SOCIETY ON THE GROUND, WHO INVARIABLY ARE AT THE SHARP EDGE OF THE CONFLICT.

>>TELL ME SOME OF THE SUCCESSFUL EFFORTS YOU'RE SEEING UNDERWAY IN ISRAEL-PALESTINE IN THE CIVIL SECTOR?

>>I THINK ONE OF THE CONCERNS, BEFORE I COME ON TO SOME OF THE SUCCESSES.

WHEN I LOOK BACK TO MAY JUST PAST, AND IT WAS ALL YOUR VIEWERS WOULD KNOW, FOR THE FIRST TIME THERE WAS INTERNAL VIOLENCE WITHIN ISRAEL ITSELF.

IT WAS JEW FIGHTING ARAB.

I THINK THAT WAS A WAKE UP CALL FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAYING- >>THESE ARE ARABS THAT ARE OF ISRAELI CITIZENSHIP.

>>YEAH, WHO ARE LIVING THERE, WHO ARE ACTUALLY LIVING IN THERE.

I WROTE AN ARTICLE FOR THE TIMES OF ISRAEL, IT WAS KIND OF WELCOME TO NORTHERN IRELAND.

THIS IS UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.

THIS IS NEIGHBOR WANTING TO KILL NEIGHBOR.

I THINK FOR A NUMBER OF GROUPS IN CIVIC SOCIETY THIS WAS A WAKE UP CALL.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THE GAZA THEATER IS THERE, AND THE WEST BANK OR PALESTINE'S THERE, BUT THIS WAS WITHIN, THIS WAS A PERSON ON ONE STREET WANTING TO KILL A NEIGHBOR IN ANOTHER STREET.

TO ME, FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN CIVIC SOCIETY, DAVID, THAT GAVE A SENSE OF URGENCY.

THAT IF THEY'RE NOT CAREFUL.

THERE'S A COLLEAGUE OF MINE, AN ISRAELI COLLEAGUE SAID TO ME, "GARY, WE'RE GOING TO END UP WITH A SERIES OF MINI BELFASTS SCATTERED ALL OVER THE NATION OF ISRAEL."

THE KEY THING IN THAT, AS A LEADING FORMER SENIOR FIGURE IN ISRAELI SECURITY SAID TO ME, "WE NEED TO TREAT OUR MINORITIES WELL."

CAN I APPLY THAT TO THE UNITED STATES?

THE ANSWER IS YES.

CAN I APPLY THAT TO THE IRISH SITUATION?

THE ANSWER IS YES.

HOW DO WE CREATE A SPACE WHERE EVERYONE FEELS PART OF THIS PLACE WE CALL HOME?

>>SENSE OF URGENCY.

OF COURSE, WE'RE NOW RUNNING SHORT ON TIME, BUT I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THIS.

SENSE OF URGENCY IS A KEY INGREDIENT FOR THE SUCCESS OF ANY OF THESE EFFORTS, CORRECT?

>>YEAH, BECAUSE WE CAN JUST MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO WITHIN THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN THEATER AT THE MOMENT, MOST PEOPLE ARE SAYING, "THE STATUS QUO SEEMS OKAY."

I SAY, YEAH, IT SEEMS OKAY TODAY AS WE CHAT IN NOVEMBER 2021.

WILL IT BE OKAY IN THREE OR FOUR YEARS TIME?

IF IT'S NOT OKAY, WHAT DOES NOT OKAY LOOK LIKE?

WITH A VERY UNSTABLE REGION, IF THERE IS A THIRD INTIFADA, OR IF THERE'S A MORE GEOPOLITICAL CATASTROPHE WITHIN THAT REGION, WHAT WAY DOES THAT AFFECT THOSE WHO LIVE WITHIN THE BORDERS OF ISRAEL?

>>FOR ME, AS I LOOK AT MY SPACE, WE BETWEEN I THINK 1974 AND 1998, WITH SEVEN ATTEMPTS AT POSSIBLE PEACE BUILDING WHICH ALL FAILED.

BECAUSE OF ANTAGONISTS ON EITHER SIDE.

IF WE'D HAVE GOT OVER THE LINE IN THE EARLY '70S, HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE ALIVE TODAY?

THIS IS ABOUT BRINGING PEOPLE'S LIVES AND STAYING ALIVE, THAT'S HOW CRUCIAL THIS IS.

I MEAN, YOU PUT THIS IN AN ILLNESS PERSPECTIVE.

I MEAN, IF I'VE DISCOVERED TODAY I'VE GOT CANCER, OR I NEED HEART SURGERY, THERE'S A SENSE OF URGENCY ABOUT IT.

MY CONCERN IS, IF ALL OUR NATIONS DON'T DEAL WITH SOME OF THESE UNDERLYING ISSUES, CALL THEM HEALTH ISSUES, CALL THEM SOCIETAL HEALTH ISSUES, IT CAN END UP CATASTROPHIC AND END UP IN A LOSS OF LIFE.

FOR THOSE WHO SUFFER THAT, THERE'S NO WAY BACK.

>>THERE IS ALWAYS STILL HOPE YOU BELIEVE.

YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT, DOING WHAT YOU'VE DONE FOR SO LONG.

>>YES, I DO.

YEAH, AND AS I SAY, I MEAN, TWO NAMES ALL YOUR VIEWERS WILL KNOW WELL, THE BRITISH BULLDOG, WINSTON CHURCHILL, THAT CHAIN CIGAR SMOKING LEADER OF THE BRITISH NATION.

>>HALF AMERICAN TOO.

YEAH.

>>YEAH, AND HAS ROOTS HERE AS WELL.

HE SAID THE IRISH PROBLEM WAS INTRACTABLE.

MARGARET THATCHER, AFFECTIONATELY KNOWN AS THE IRON LADY, SAID IT WAS INTRACTABLE.

BECAUSE OF LEADERSHIP, BOTH POLITICALLY AND WITHIN CIVIC SOCIETY, WE GOT OVER THE LINE.

IT'S NOT PERFECTION, DAVID.

IT'S A FRAGILE PEACE PROCESS.

THOSE IN THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION KNOW THAT, THEY STILL PUT ENERGY INTO IT.

THEY KNOW IT NEEDS CONSTANT HAND HOLDING, BUT AS I SAID TO SOMEONE RECENTLY, IF WE HADN'T HAVE GOT IT, FROM 1998 TO I TALK TO YOU TODAY, LATE AUTUMN, EARLY WINTER OF 2021, THERE'D HAVE BEEN THOUSANDS MORE DEAD AND TENS OF THOUSANDS MORE PEOPLE INJURED.

FOR THAT REASON AND THAT REASON ALONE IT WAS WORTHWHILE.

>>DR.

GARY MASON, THANK YOU AGAIN SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK AS YOU CONTINUE THIS VERY IMPORTANT WORK.

>>OKAY.

THANK YOU, DAVID, AND BEST WISHES IN ALL YOU'RE DOING HERE AT UCF AS WELL.

EXCELLENT.

>>THANK YOU.