♪ ♪ ♪ >> Dr. Mustafa Santiago Ali discusses the impact of climate change and pollution in communities of color, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ ♪ >> We're very honored to have Dr. Mustafa Santiago Ali, the vice president of the National Wildlife Federation.

Welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you, sir.

It's good to be with you.

>> I'm gonna talk about your journey.

You were born in West Virginia.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And then kind of raised up in Michigan.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> When did you first have an climate and social justice matters?

>> Well, you know, I was raised in a family of Baptists and Pentecostal ministers.

My grandfather worked in the coal mines and he was also a farmer, and my dad was a union man.

My grandfather was, as well.

So I remember, as a small boy, sitting next to my grandfather's knee, and he used to have this bushel of apples and he would peel them as men from all across the county would come together to talk about what was going on in the mines, talking about addressing civil rights issues.

And he would cut a small piece off to always keep me calm and listening, and that was the beginning of actually being exposed.

And I guess the seeds were planted at that time, as well, and then my father with picket lines and workers' rights, and then also just seeing the impacts that were happening.

You know, men coming up out of the mines with black lung and these other diseases.

>> So you grew up in a working-class family that your father knew something about these miners experiencing black lung disease.

>> Oh, without a doubt.

You know, exposures have always been a part of -- whether we're exposed to racism or exposed to pollution, exposed to economic-related issues, all of it, you know, came together in the work and the exposures that I received from listening to my elders, hearing about how they were able to mobilize, how they were able to educate folks, how they were able to inspire folks to actually want to get engaged, which, you know, is the linchpin in being able to make change happen, is us coming together in a collective.

>> Well, you know, in 2022, the term "environmental justice" is talked about at the EPA, academic settings all over the country, and a lot of grassroots organizations.

But 40, 50 years ago, that was not the case.

People had not made an association between civil rights and environmental rights.

Let's talk about that.

>> Well, you know, it's like James Baldwin once shared with us when he said that, "If I love you, I have to make you conscious of the things you don't see."

The Civil Rights Movement, the social justice movement, the environmental justice movement -- all of these movements have been about putting right in front of America these disparities, these impacts that continue to happen in Black and brown and lower-wealth communities, and, of course, to indigenous brothers and sisters, as well.

So my journey has been about doing what I can to be a part of a movement to actually bring forward these injustices, thinking critically about the solutions, and then, also, the part that we have to talk enough about, also, is about the resources, because we know, as we look across the country, whether it's in Cancer Alley -- the cancer rates are just, you know, they're just so incredibly high, but when we look at other communities, we see those types of dynamics.

Or we look at the Manchester community in Houston, Texas, over there on the shipyard channel.

You know, hard-working Latinx community, but yet, when you go there, you feel like you're breathing in gasoline fumes when you roll down the windows of your car.

Or you look at, you know, folks over in Turkey Creek, Mississippi, founded by freed slaves, been fighting expansions, but also been also trying to protect their water quality.

We can literally go across the country and we have, over the decades, you know, all these voices coming together, all the work that you and others did around that first People of Color Summit and getting the principles in place to be a guide to being a North Star to help us to get to justice.

>> Well, Dr. Ali, you know, I want our listening audience to know that the brother that they are listening is not only well-versed but also well-educated.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> You worked for the EPA for 24 years.

>> Yes, sir.

>> How did you get to the Environmental Protections Agency?

>> Because of the work of the Michigan working group and a number of others, they forced EPA to actually have to begin this journey around environmental equity -- You remember when they used to call it environmental equity?

-- environmental justice, environmental racism.

Out of those recommendations that so many front-line leaders -- 'cause people always give credit to EPA, and there is some credit to be given, but we really got to give it back to the front lines who actually had a set of recommendations and said, "These are the things that need to be in place," and then you have Administrator William Reilly at the, you know, end of his term, who said, "You know what?

Let's open the doors."

Now, of course, there were some folks who had to kick in some doors and push.

>> I remember when "Toxic Wastes and Race" was first published during the Reagan administration.

It kind of caught the larger environmental groups off-guard, but the government itself was a little reticent to use the term "race" involving environmental policy.

>> And even to today, there's still a struggle that's in that space, but thanks to the hard science and analysis that prove without a doubt that if you are a person of color, you are much more likely to be impacted from toxic pollution than if you just lower income and happen to be white.

That's not to take anything away from that because those brothers and sisters are also dealing with it.

>> So tell me, then, what was the impetus of you not only getting a good job with the EPA, but you also pursued your own academic training.

Tell us about the schools that you graduated from.

>> Oh, well, West Virginia University -- I got to call that out, the Mountaineers.

I got a lot of training that was there.

I spent a little time over at Clark, University of Maryland, and then, of course, I have degrees also from Vermont Law School and Green Mountain College, and I've matriculated a couple of other places as well, but the real education actually came in communities and being blessed, work in almost over 1,000 communities now across the country.

It's where the real education came from, because you can have that academic, which is important, but you have to be able to tie it to what's actually happening on the ground in people's lives.

>> Well, man, if you've worked in 1,000 communities, that seems like you got a book coming.

>> [ Chuckles ] >> When is Doc Ali's book on environmental justice coming?

>> Well, you know, a couple folks have approached me about that.

It's still an ongoing journey, and I'm still learning, but it's coming sometime here, probably within the next year.

>> Well, let's go now.

You're vice president of the National Wildlife Federation.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> How does a brother get a wildlife?

Come on.

>> Yeah, well, no, it's an important question, and before I went there, I sat on the board, and there's a new president, a young president -- his names Collin O'Mara -- and we used to have conversations.

He said, "Mustafa, I want to create a 21st-century organization."

So I pause for a second, I said, "Well, do you understand what that means?"

And he said, "Yeah, I think so."

And I said, "That means that we have to fully embrace environmental justice and be willing to deal with the injustice," 'cause when we look at the National Wildlife Federation, yes, it is about protecting wildlife, but it is also about protecting public lands, which actually one of the first principles of environmental justice talks about.

But it also about people, because we understand that the pollution that is impacting wildlife and impacting our natural spaces is that same pollution that is making Black and brown communities sick and shortening their lives.

So there is a direct correlation between our work, and if we are serious about making real change happen in relationship to addressing environmental racism or environmental injustice, then that means that we have to build these coalitions of individuals.

We have to increase the education that's necessary, and then we have to leverage it into real change.

>> These correlations that you speak about, are they multi-racial, multi-lingual?

Are we seeing the social justice movement incorporate the need for diversity, equity, and inclusion, even in the movement?

be quite honest, but the answer is yes.

We're starting to see it in a number of different places, and let's just call out that one of the elements that really pushed that forward is when we lost our brother George Floyd and a number of other lives that were lost, and cameras once again refocused on injustice that was happening.

>> Yes, Black Lives Matter became a multi-racial social justice movement on the ground.

State legislators and even up to Congress and globally.

>> Yeah, and people have said we got to do something different.

So you've seen many of these big green organizations now starting to better incorporate environmental justice and some of the principles.

And you're also starting to see diversity in hiring, but still a lot of work that needs to happen in that space.

We see foundations shifting their portfolio, something I know you and other leaders in the early days -- >> Resources.

>> Right, we're, like, doing the work, but we don't have the money.

>> That's right.

>> So now you see that starting to change.

We even see some corporations beginning to build some criteria into their work, and then, of course, finally, many of the environmental justice and front-line organizations are getting the dollars that they need and getting the attention that they deserve and are actually helping to frame out legislation on the county and the state and the federal level to hopefully, finally begin to end these injustices that continue to happen inside of our communities from toxic pollution.

>> We recall it was in the early 1990s when we had the first People of Color Environmental Leadership Summit, and out of that summit came these principles that you're talking about, 'cause, you know, one of the things that keeps grassroots groups alive is winning some victories, not just suffering defeats.

Talk to us about the progress.

>> Well, the progress is happening.

We've seen some of the pipeline fights that have gone on when brothers and sisters and coalitions have actually been able to stop those pipelines, and that's important 'cause we got 2.4 million miles of fossil fuel pipeline, and lots of times, it is taking, you know, that product into our communities and shortening our lives, so we're winning on that.

We're winning in some instances on the legislation that's necessary to be a framework.

>> We getting lead out of the pipes?

>> Well, there's the point.

We are getting some of the lead out of the pipes, so we're talking about Flint, Michigan, or we're talking about Benton Harbor, Michigan, that has higher levels of lead even than Flint did.

We got 3,000 locations across the -- >> Say that again.

Are you telling me there's a community that has more lead than Flint, Michigan's lead?

>> Yes, sir.

>> In the public water system?

>> There are 3,000 locations across our country that have higher levels of lead in their water than Flint did, and that's why, when we have the bipartisan infrastructure bill that was gonna make sure to deal with a third of those pipes that needed to be, you know, swapped out, you know, the 10 to 14 million lead lines that needed to go.

Then we got the Build Back Better, you know, that can help us to finally get close to fully taking out all these lead lines.

>> You think the Congress is gonna get it through?

You know, they sort of paused.

I was so pleased to see that included in the Build Back Better act, but, you know, it's stalled right there in the Senate.

>> Well, that's where we all come in, right?

So we have to continue to put pressure, right?

I never tell anybody who to vote for, but, you know, when we're looking at this type of a situation where they're talking about breaking out a part of the Build Back Better on the environmental and climate side of the equation, about $550 billion, so that we can finally begin to address many of these issues that have been impacting our communities and focusing on the sets of opportunities, which is incredibly important, because we know in our communities there is a wealth gap that exists, and we've got to be able to address that.

And some of these new economic opportunities can help us to move in that direction.

>> Dr. Ali, how do you define the intersection of environmental justice and climate justice?

>> Oh, well, it's very simple.

You can't win on climate if you don't win on environmental injustice, and here's the reason why.

When we look at where the majority of the fossil fuel facilities are located, they're located in Black and brown and indigenous lands, and we know that the pollution that's coming out of there is warming up our oceans and warming up our planet -- that's one part.

Second part is transportation.

We know that there has been racism and biases and discrimination built into traditionally our transportation policies, and we know that transportation is one of the main drivers of what's happening in relationship to the climate.

And then, of course, you know, brothers and sisters, Black and brown, have been defending our jungles and our forests and our wetlands for millennia, and by, you know, deforestation -- >> You're talking about our Native American brothers and sisters.

They're at the forefront of getting, really, the whole world to understand the importance of climate.

>> Yeah, it goes back to the justice -- honoring Mother Earth.

>> So when we don't do that, we see that things get out of balance and we see people lose their lives, we see economies begin to be impacted, and a number of other dynamics that go on.

So when we talk about definition of environmental justice and climate justice, you know, it is really about protecting people, it is about protecting the planet, and it's about protecting the future, and those are the three elements that come together.

And we can do it, which is the interesting thing, and so many leaders in the environmental justice movement have been calling it out for over 40-plus years now.

Hazel Johnson -- I remember the mother of the environmental justice movement.

She didn't have a PhD, she didn't need a PhD, because she would talk about, along with other leaders, the changes that they were seeing in the environment.

It's the exact same thing now.

These changes we see in the environment, we're just seeing them also on a global scale because of the choices that we made.

So if you choose the wrong choice before, now you can choose the right choice.

It's really that simple.

My grandmother says, "When you know better, do better."

>> Exactly.

You know, former President Obama, Barack Obama, started his community organizing in Altgeld Gardens.

>> Yes.

>> One of the cradles of the rise of environmental justice that was under Hazel Johnson's leadership.

>> Yes, sir, yes, sir.

I mean, Hazel, you know, she was someone who embraced young people.

She embraced me when I was a student coming up, and she used to call me "The Kid."

You know, Hazel used to be like, "Come over here, come over here.

I want to listen to this.

I want you to learn, and then you have the responsibility to take this information and do something with it."

>> Well, that's a good segue to how the movement is able to replenish itself with leadership, with organizers, with mobilizers.

What do you see on the horizon?

Do you see that movement coming forth?

>> You know, it's exciting.

There are so many young people who are leaders.

The interesting thing with the young leaders today is that, you know, by the time some of them are 16, they already got 10 years of experience, 'cause some of them start when they're little kids.

>> Yes.

>> And so that's powerful, because by the time they get into their 20s, you know, they are well versed, huge amounts of experience.

And many of them have started their own organizations, which also is a plus in being able to navigate both domestically and internationally.

The other thing that I really appreciate about young leaders is that they seem to really get those core elements that you and many of the other leaders used to talk about.

You know, making sure that you have organizations that look like and represent the communities that they come from.

They seem to have left many of the "isms" behind.

I know sometimes they pop up -- sexism, racism, a number of the other "isms."

You don't see as much in these younger organizations, so that's a blessing, too.

That means that they took some of those positive lessons that many of the early leaders shared and have now built the foundation underneath of them, and they're operating, you know, whether you look at, you know, at the various cops that are there, they are showing up.

They are, you know, really pushing and forcing folks to think differently about how we can address these issues, how everybody's voice has to be a part of the process.

So it's powerful.

>> Tell us, Dr. Ali, what would be your message to millions of Americans today about the importance of both environmental and climate matters, and what would you recommend -- what should people's priorities be?

Give us the three top priorities from your perspective.

>> Well, I would share with folks is that we can win.

You know, my grandmother says that you have power unless you give it away.

We need to utilize our power to actually make real change happen.

Dr. King shared with us that we come to these shores in different ships, but we're all in the same boat now.

We are in the same boat in relationship to both what's going on with climate and what's going on racial justice and a number of -- Now, there may be varying levels of this.

You know, the first thing is to make sure that we are understanding and connecting with those who are on the front lines.

Volunteering with those organizations so that we can continue to build this coalition.

>> So mass participation is important.

>> Most definitely.

>> Not just being an observer, but to actually get activated.

>> Yes, sir.

The other one is to make sure that we are thinking critically about how we utilize our dollars.

Are we actually paying people to pollute us?

Are we actually investing our dollars in ways that are gonna help protect both the environment and communities?

Which is critically important because each and every day, we utilize those resources that are in our pockets, you know, in our wallets, and in our purses.

That gives huge power.

The other part of it is to get engaged in the civic process.

We have to understand that if real change is gonna happen, then we got to have folks on the local, the county, the state, and the federal level who are going to do everything that they can to protect our communities and to move forward on creating an economy that actually lifts everyone up and no one is left behind.

>> Civic participation.

>> Without a doubt.

>> Getting out the vote.

>> Yes, sir.

>> Registering to vote.

>> Yes, sir.

>> Mobilizing the vote.

>> Yes, sir.

>> And, you know, I tell people environmental justice, you got to vote environmental justice."

>> Without a doubt, and it's on the ticket now, along with climate change, because the two are connected to each other.

So our vote is incredibly powerful and our vote will also help to determine what our communities look like.

You know, we can improve our zip codes.

Some people on one zip code live 10, 15 years less than somebody who may be just not that far away, so we have so much power, but it's tied back to our vote.

>> Dr. Ali, how are we preparing our young people in the education systems and public educations -- you think we're gonna be able to get in curriculums in public schools about environmental justice, about climate justice?

How do you see it?

>> I think it is evolving into that position.

Now, it'll be different school districts.

Of course each gets to make their own choices, but it has to be a part.

It is a part of the history of our country.

It also helps us to understand where we've made mistakes and where the sets of opportunities are for us to make our country stronger.

And, of course, by making this country stronger, we help the planet as a whole since we are a leader in a number of positions.

So the education is happening not just in schools, but those educations also have to happen in mosques, in synagogues, in churches, and in our civic organizations and a number of other places.

So I do see that beginning to take hold.

>> What's your perspective on the global environmental justice movement?

Are we coming together in various places around the world over the last 40 years?

What is the trend and what is your prediction for the future?

>> Well, bridges have been built, but we have to maintain those bridges.

You know, brothers and sisters in Africa and in South America and in a number of other locations have been partnering and working and listening and learning with each other, you know, on environmental justice.

What were those early fights and battles and sets of strategies that the EJ movement in the United States did that can now help folks in Brazil, that can help folks in Nigeria and in Ghana and in a number of locations across our country?

So those bridges have been built, but we have to put the resources behind them to strengthen them and to grow them out, you know, and because we also know that it's all tied once again, you know, what's happening in environmental injustice is what's driving the climate crisis.

And, of course, we now see so many different folks across the planet who are dealing with these climate emergencies, so the bridges are built.

We need to build more.

We need to make sure, also, on our governmental structures across the planet, that they are fully building the criteria and focus on environmental justice if we seriously want to win on a number of these issues -- everything from the pandemics because the IPCC and the National Climate Assessment reports have shared with us a number of different impacts that will happen.

There will be more pandemics because of rises in temperature and new pathogens that are released that have been frozen in certain parts of our planet.

So these connections, the international connections are so critical.

>> I see that the World Health Organization also now categorizes environmental justice.

The United Nations now categorizes environmental justice.

Do you think that the consciousness of most Americans would also be expanded to see the global realities?

>> I think we have to.

You know, nothing is in a silo, you know?

We have an international system on the financial side.

We have to have an international system also in relationship to social justice, to public health impacts, and a number of other dynamics.

So it is coming.

The question is, will we do it fast enough?

Because we understand that we have a clock that is ticking down rapidly, and if we don't begin to make these additional steps, then we'll miss many of the goals and that will mean that many of these impacts will continue to grow and grow and grow, and we know that folks who are in the global south are the ones who are getting hit even extremely hard in this moment, and it will grow.

So we've got to build our international capacity, and brothers and sisters who are here have to understand the connections all across the globe as folks there understand their connection to what's happening in the United States.

>> Very good.

We're in a digital age.

>> Mm.

>> And, of course, data -- or at least the interpretation of data -- determines public policy.

From your perspective, what does the data tell you about the future of environmental justice?

>> Well, the data says that we have to make more investments.

The data says that we've got over 100,000 people who are dying prematurely from air pollution in our country every year.

>> Now say that again.

100,000?

>> Yes, sir.

Let me put it in context very quickly.

We have over 100,000 -- that's the conservative number -- who are dying from air pollution.

More people are dying from air pollution than are dying from gun violence.

More people are dying from air pollution than are dying from car crashes.

More people are dying from air pollution than are dying from overdoses of drugs.

That's how serious that air pollution problem is, and that's why data is so incredibly important, because it is not theory.

It is "These are the folks that are dying."

>> Got to pay attention to the science.

>> Exactly.

You got to honor science.

Science is critical.

Science also has to make sure that it's also embracing diversity.

And science has to make sure we're putting more resources into historically Black colleges and universities, Hispanic serving institutions, tribal colleges, and others who are helping to train the next generation of scientists and engineers and a number of other positions that are critical for our future.

These are investments about making sure that we are stronger and better and that we are prepared for the things that are just literally around the corner.

And that's why data and science are so important.

>> Well, this is our first show.

We're gonna have to have you back, man.

We're just opening up.

Dr. Mustafa Santiago Ali, "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> It's an honor to be with you.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

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