(light upbeat music) (camera shutter beeping) (soft dramatic music) (moves to dramatic music) - "Eye on education," I'm Fred Martino.

My guest today is Illinois State Superintendent of Education, Dr. Tony Sanders.

Until his appointment, he served eight years as the superintendent of the Elgin Area's School District, U-46, the state's second-largest school system.

Dr. Sanders, thank you so much for being with us today.

- It's my honor.

Thank you for having me.

- Great to have you here.

And, you know, I'm gonna start with a question they always say be prepared to answer, why did you want this job?

This is a big job.

- Well, I think there's a couple of reasons.

Number one is it's difficult to go from the state's second-largest school district to another school district.

That, to me, would not be exciting.

For me, the dream of going back and working at the State Board of Education, an agency I worked at back in the early 2000s, to give back to all school children across the state was always my dream.

And so when the opportunity arose, I of course jumped at it.

The other reason is that it kind of runs in my family history.

My father was state superintendent when we moved to Illinois back when I was in high school.

And so there's a piece of it of wanting to also follow in my father's footsteps.

- That is an amazing story.

And you have, you know, an amazing goal.

I subscribe to the weekly State Board of Education email newsletter, and I read your first official communication where you said, "My moral imperative is to change our systems until they measurably work for all kids."

A big job, what would that look like, Dr. Sanders?

- So, first of all, just a little bit behind the moral imperative.

I'm a big fan of Simon Sinek's work and the power of why.

And so I think we all need to have a why behind what we do what we do.

And for me, it's the moral imperative of changing our systems until they adequately work for all children.

That is mission critical.

We have a lot of students who need our support day in and day out.

And at the state board level, what I'd like to see happen from that moral imperative is really figuring out a way of ensuring that we're providing adequate support for all school systems, all 852 school districts across Illinois, and thereby providing support for all of our two million school children across the state of Illinois.

So it is a big goal, but it is one that I really feel passionate about.

- And of course, as you know, many of the reasons that systems don't work for our kids are outside the schools.

One of those issues facing many children is behavioral health.

And in that opening message, you also talked about the behavioral health Transformation Initiative in the state.

Tell me about that.

- So there's several.

The Behavioral Health Transformation process really is an effort, a collaborative effort between the State Board of Education, the Department of Human Services, the Department of Children and Family Services, and multiple state agencies trying to figure out how do we ensure that we're meeting the mental health needs of all of our youth.

That's an ongoing effort.

The governor's committed to it, but beyond that transformational work there, the State Board of Education also has invested a lot of resources in what they call REACH Hubs.

So throughout the state of Illinois, we have social and emotional learning hubs for teachers to access to really learn about the needs of their students, help them identify ways to meet the needs of their kids, and try to meet those social and emotional needs of kids, which we know is so imperative right now, especially in the wake of the pandemic.

- Yeah, in in many ways my next question ties into the behavioral health issue.

As an educator, I wanna get your personal take on this.

It's something I've thought a lot about, school has always been tough at one time or another for many kids, but today, children see a lot more about the world due to online platforms and other media that were very different when you and I were growing up.

And the world that they see is sometimes a pretty scary place.

It's scary for adults, I can't imagine what it's like for kids, particularly if they don't have a lot of support at home.

What do you make of this and what do we do as educators and as society about that issue?

- So I think one of the best things that we can do is model the behavior that we'd like to see from our children.

I speak very openly about my own mental health journey and trying to make sure that I'm taking care of myself both physically and mentally, and I encourage all adults to do the same thing.

So I think it does start with modeling the behavior that we expect of our students and our children.

And secondly, I think we have to recognize that the mental health needs our kids faced today are the same ones that existed before March of 2020.

The difference is that we're just much more focused on the mental health needs of our kids today than we were a few years ago.

So the behaviors that we were seeing pre-COVID just seem worse today as kids have come back into the classroom.

I do agree with you that the social media, the internet has really transformed the social interactions that kids engage in today much more so than than what we had when you and I were growing up.

We were engaged much more in face-to-face interaction and now kids are more engaged in online interaction.

We have to recognize that and help them develop the skills necessary to cope mentally in a virtual world, which is something that we've never had to do before.

- Yeah, a difficult job, a job not just for schools and for educators but for parents and other guardians.

Just so important to focus on that.

Dr. Sanders, besides behavioral health, what would you say are the other really big challenges that are facing schools right now?

- So, right now, I think in terms of challenges I think every school district or most school districts across the state are struggling with filling teacher vacancies, para-educator vacancies, bus driver vacancies.

The same workforce issues that we see in the private sector we're experiencing also in public education.

And so I'm sure you've heard the governor's proposed some resources, $70 million worth of resources to invest in the teacher pipeline.

That's certainly critical work in this day and age.

We cannot meet the needs of kids if we don't have teachers in the classroom.

But longterm, I think we need to address this beyond just providing fiscal resources and actually re-uplift the profession on a day-to-day basis and recognize that it is a really noble profession to be a teacher.

It's a calling and it's something that we need, in neighborhoods and in communities, we really need to profile and highlight the hard work of all of our teachers.

So that's certainly a hot topic.

I think the second biggest one, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, is how do we adjust our statewide system of support to make sure that we are helping school districts with their improvement processes?

We recognize that there are a lot of school districts in the state that are struggling to meet the needs of all of their kids and we need to be in partnership with those school districts to make sure that they can improve.

- A lot of different things that schools are facing right now.

Another one that I want to ask you about that seems to be in the national news more and more, what do you make of the national attempt by some folks to inject the culture wars into our schools?

We've seen this with fights over all-gender bathrooms and other issues.

What do you think about this and what do we do about this?

- Well, I think it's unfortunate.

School districts are inherently apolitical.

School boards are not elected on a partisan basis.

They are a nonpartisan position, and so school districts, schools in general and teachers don't deserve to be in the crosshairs of a culture war.

What we do wanna see is, of course we wanna see teachers and a curriculum that uplifts and uplifts all of our cultures, all races and all cultures, but that's not something that should cause the teachers to live in fear of showing up to work every day or for public servants to feel that they're not going to be reelected to a position for caring about all kids.

- As you know, the culture wars also sometimes affect curriculum and books in the library.

Illinois is somewhat protected from this due to a progressive political climate in the state, not the case in in many other states.

What do you say to folks about the importance of academic freedom in this regard?

- So we have to let teachers teach without fear of repercussion.

Most school districts allow their teachers the academic freedom to teach in ways that they want to teach.

And, certainly, they will have a curriculum that aligns to the local norms and local values.

And Illinois does not have a state prescripted curriculum for any content area so it really does rely on local school boards, local administrators, and teachers to determine what's in their curriculum, which is the way it should be.

In terms of the uplifting all the different cultures, we referenced a few of them.

It's important to recognize that Illinois law requires units of study around different cultures and races.

One of the first ones ever added to the state code was for the Irish famine, and so we have to teach about the Irish famine.

Then we added Mexican deportation, Leif Erickson Day.

There is a multitude, about 40-some curricular mandates in our curriculum so that students can see themselves when they're studying our books.

And that should be something that we should all agree is a positive thing for kids to be able to see themselves in a curriculum.

- So important, and another issue about instruction I want to ask you about, how is our curriculum, in your view, keeping up with changes in technology and the way we work?

This is a big discussion, as you know, in preparing young people for the world of work, not only preparing for the cultural sensitivity, working together, but how we work together in terms of technology and the changes that have been taking place it seems that, especially since due to the pandemic, at light speed.

- That is one of the next big challenges that we have.

Certainly COVID did expedite our learning in terms of online learning and distance learning, remote learning, whatever label you wanna put onto it.

We learned a lot in that time period.

I think we learned things that worked well and we learned things that didn't work so well.

So I can see, in Illinois, we need to have the conversations about how we can use what worked well during COVID and distance learning and online learning to see how can we close gaps for kids across the state of Illinois so that they have access to teachers and curriculum they might not have within their current home district.

So there's certainly ways that we can do that level of work, but you're right, our curriculum has not really updated in terms of the digital literacy that's necessary across the state.

We have digital literacy standards, but we need to do work with our school districts to make sure that they are all up to speed and have a curriculum around digital lit, digital literacy, which is hard for me to say, obviously.

- (laughs) This is such an important topic, and I'm sure we could do an entire show on this, but I want to move on because I wanted to kind of cover a wide variety of things today, and I want to talk about another issue that's gotten a little more play in the news, I think it's something very important, and that's how schools are doing in efforts to engage students who might not be interested in a four-year college degree.

How is Illinois doing in terms of preparing students for careers who may leave high school and either go straight into a career or go into some other sort of training but not a four-year college degree before becoming an auto mechanic or working in the very much needed fields in terms of trades, whether that be HVAC or construction?

They really run the gamut, and there's a huge need for more folks to work in these professions.

- I agree, I think, you know, a few years ago we started saying instead of college or career ready we started saying college and career ready, recognizing that we need to be responsive to the needs of local employers and that students can exit our high schools with the credentials necessary to go straight into the workforce and go right to work and maybe do a little bit of post-secondary training at a community college or elsewhere, but really getting them prepared for the workforce.

In Illinois, I think we've done a really good job.

And if you look at the state report card, district by district, we now report out on the number of credentials that students receive in each school district.

And it's pretty impressive to see the growth across the state of local school districts investing in career pathways for students.

I know in my former district we had grown a welding pathway, precision manufacturing, automotive, culinary arts, just a variety.

Anything that a student might want to pursue as a career we were offering to them locally, and also aligning that to the local business needs.

And so, you're right, kids do not have to necessarily go directly into college.

They can choose to go into a career.

But I do wanna note that, even with a career pathway, the importance of lifelong learning cannot be lost in this conversation.

So even if you do get a career, the importance of still pursuing additional opportunities through community college or a four-year institution is is still a benefit to everybody.

- Absolutely, and along those lines, do you think we have enough resources available for dual-credit programs where students can earn college credit while they're still in high school?

- Absolutely, in fact, across the state, you're seeing a slight dip in the number of students taking advanced placement courses, and I attribute that really to the explosive growth of dual credit.

Over the last few years, the state and many communities have invested with their local community colleges, working in conjunction with their high school districts, dual credit opportunities so that kids can graduate with not only high school but graduate with an associate's degree while they're still in high school.

That's an amazing opportunity not only for the students, but it's a great cost savings for their family as well.

So absolutely that needs to continue to be an investment at the state level.

And you see that playing out in local school districts across the state.

- Yeah, it's really an exciting thing, and for folks who are watching this show, certainly something that they should look into for their children or for their grandchildren to really understand the options there, because a lot of important decisions can be made in high school and can really affect their lives, and as you point out, also save the family money if they do earn an associate's degree in addition to their high school degree.

I wanna talk about something else that this may be surprising to you, but I hear a lot about it, particularly from folks who own businesses or run businesses, and that's the so-called soft skills.

You know employers are talking about this.

Students may use electronic communications so much that they may have to learn more about relating in person, particularly with adults.

And there are the soft skills of following directions, showing up to work on time, a lot of things that are just crucial to success but we may not have thought about providing instruction in schools in these areas but it may be time that we have to do that.

I wanna get your thoughts on this and what you're hearing about this, because I'm sure, as a school superintendent and now the state superintendent, you're going to be hearing more about this and you've heard about it in the past as well.

- You know, Fred, I heard about it not only just as a superintendent of a local school district but as an employer, as somebody that was actively, you know, in my former district, we had 6,000 employees and so we were also in the market and always looking for employees.

And you're right, some people call it soft skills, I like to refer to 'em as human skills, it's the ability to work together to relate to one another, to show up on time, and do the things that we're supposed to do.

And it's not necessarily built into any curriculum, but I think you see, if you talk to teachers in classrooms today, many teachers are building that into their day-to-day lessons.

They're building it into courses such as advancement via individual determination, AVID courses, across the state.

They're building it into some of the career and technical education classes because it's not just, as you noted, even in the career pathways there's more to it than just learning how to operate a machine.

It's also knowing how to show up on time, put your device away, even balance a checkbook is a critical skill that a lot of students will need.

It's not really in any standards or curriculum that's out there specifically, explicitly written, but it is certainly a topic that school districts I know are having, in this day and age, a lot.

- Yeah, and something I bet we'll hear, you know, more and more about as as time goes on.

Another thing we've covered extensively here and I know you get questions about a lot and I want to touch on this, and that is the teacher shortage.

In your previous job, I know you invested in a Grow Your Own Educator initiative to provide educational support professionals the ability to return to school to earn their teaching credentials.

Give me a sense of that program and other things that we can do to deal with this teacher shortage that we have.

- That's a great question.

So I wish I could take the credit for the Grow Your Own program in School District U-46.

What happened was, you know, as I was working towards my doctorate, my board invested money for me to go back and earn my doctorate.

They paid for my tuition, it was part of my contract.

And I was meeting with a bus driver one day and the bus driver said to me, "Your board of education values education so much that they're paying for you to go get your doctorate and reimbursing that cost.

I want to become a teacher.

Where is that similar investment for me?"

And, boy, that sat with me for just a couple days and it really got me going.

It made me realize how inequitable that is, that, as a superintendent, my board was willing to invest in me as a professional but somebody wanting to be a teacher who's currently a bus driver, we don't offer that same ability.

And so I went to the board and I figured out a budget of $1.4 million to be able to offer tuition reimbursement for any bus driver, teachers aide, anybody that worked in the school system that wanted to go back and become a teacher, that we would help them go back and become a teacher.

And it was wildly successful.

We had 60 people sign up instantly to become teachers.

And we're really quickly moving to close the the pipeline gap that we had in School District U-46.

So I think that is an innovation that you could see across the state being replicated, but I want to not lose sight of a couple of other things.

We have to provide teachers the environments that they want to work in.

That's one of the keys to filling the holes that we're seeing.

People don't leave jobs that they love and so we can make teaching an attractive profession if we can ensure that the cultures in our schools are such that teachers don't want to leave the profession and if, in our communities, we begin to once again highlight how wonderful our teachers are.

Let's go back to putting the signs up in our yards like we did at the beginning of the pandemic where we were supporting, not just nurses, but teachers as well.

Let 'em feel the love every day when they get home from work and I think that we can begin to turn the ship a little bit faster and get more people engaged in becoming teachers across the state.

- You know, I think probably most people watching this would absolutely agree that making sure that parents, that students honor their teachers, let them know how impactful their work is.

You know, thank them.

Just say thank you, that's really, really important.

And as someone who's taught college classes for many years, I know, in terms of personal job satisfaction for me personally, the greatest moments in my entire career involved a student telling me, "Your class made a difference."

Something that I did had some influence in their future, their life.

That really made a difference for me, it motivated me.

What are the other things though?

You talked about ensuring that there is a good culture in our schools so that folks that we already have who are teaching don't leave.

What are the other things that we need to do to create that culture of support and honor for our educators?

- So anytime I'm meeting a new group of teachers who are new to the profession, I always ask them if there was a movie that inspired them to become a teacher, and people always point to the same movies that we all have seen, "Stand and Deliver," "Freedom Writers," you name it.

But each of these movies has one common element and that is it's one teacher standing up against an entire system.

They're the one good teacher among, you know, a bunch of other bad teachers and an administrator that doesn't seem to care.

And that's what the media portrays teaching to be.

And in good school cultures, in a school that really has a strong culture, every teacher has the belief in their fellow teachers.

So there's a collective teacher efficacy that builds where we believe in one another, we support one another, we lesson plan together, and we have professional learning communities that work together to plan out our lessons so that they're, you know, everybody's moving in the same direction and we uplift and support one another.

So that's the type of environment that I would like to see, something that doesn't exist in any movies that you've seen, but if you visit our effective schools that you'll see time and time again.

I'm sure in your days in teaching as a professor, you need colleagues, you need other people working alongside you, you need somebody that supports you from an administrator role to makes sure that you have the supplies and materials to do your job.

So it's that type of a culture, I think, that needs to be built across all of our schools.

- Absolutely.

What a joy to talk with you today.

Thank you so much for being with us.

And for your future starting this new job, best of luck to you.

- Thank you so much.

I really appreciate coming on the show today.

Dr. Martino, I really appreciate your time as well.

- Take care.

My guest was Illinois State Superintendent of Education, Dr. Tony Sanders.

That's "Eye on Education" for all of us at WSIU.

I'm Fred Martino.

Thanks so much for being here, and have a great week.

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