♪♪ >> Scientist, historian, change-maker, Dr. "Topper" Carew next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

♪♪ >> Dr. Topper Carew, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I'm so pleased to be here.

>> So, your connection with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, your connection with MIT is natural.

You're a native Bostonian.

>> [ Laughs ] I am.

But I originally attended Howard University.

I'm a proud HBCU alum and I can tell you that changed my life.

>> Well, you also was around in the formative stages of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, SNCC.

A lot of Howard students got involved in the evolution of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

>> There's no question.

The -- One of the hubs of SNCC in the early days, in the early '60s, was a group called the Nonviolent Action Group, which was the SNCC chapter.

And, you know, Stokely was in that chapter.

>> Stokely Carmichael.

>> Oh, yeah.

Stokely.

About 35 of us out of a university that had 11,000 students.

But it was this group of young people who decided we had to look into the future and had to be very strong in our expression about civil rights.

And we became an engine, a real engine, for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

And when we first started, you know, the Howard students thought we were strange, you know, because we had long hair and we're wearing coveralls and dashikis and all and we were referring to ourselves as black.

And at that time, when you would say to another student at Howard, you know, "We're black," and they would say, "Who are you talking about, man?

I ain't black," you know?

And they'd want to fight you, man.

>> Well, this is the formative stages of the Black is Beautiful movement, Black Power... >> Yes.

>> ...the student infusion into the Civil Rights Movement.

>> Yes.

>> You know, I was on the SCLC side, you were on the SNCC side, but there was a convergence... >> There was a convergence -- >> ...between the black church, the black students and black intellectuals.

>> And, as you remember, Ella Baker, you know, a saint, was given $800 by Dr. King, and SNCC became the student arm of the SCLC.

>> At Shaw University.

A very formative conference.

>> Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

>> Another HBCU.

>> Oh, yes.

>> In Raleigh, North Carolina.

>> Yeah.

And SNCC is still active.

>> So, look, we could spend the whole program talking about SNCC.

>> Right.

>> And maybe we should come back.

But how does an architect become a television producer?

>> I started making films about architecture as part of my toolbox, because I began to see how architecture could empower people who had real interesting problems.

I saved 49 homes, for example.

Black families, elderly.

And it was a question of whether or not the homes would be taken and a used-car lot would be spared.

So I made a film about it.

I had learned to make films, and that film is what changed the decision on the part of the D.C. government to save those homes.

So I started making films as part of my architectural work.

>> The convergence of social justice and film-making.

>> Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

And that's been a result of my immersion in the SNCC experience, where I saw how this tool that I had developed called architecture could be now used in the interest of equity, justice, you know, and civil rights.

And that's when architecture began to mean something to me.

>> I want to go back now to the "Martin" show, since everybody across racial lines was impacted by this television show.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Tell us how you first got involved with producing the "Martin" show.

>> As my career in film began to progress and I began to gain more notoriety, I moved from WGBH, where I was a program manager, you know -- >> In Boston.

>> In Boston -- PBS station.

To Los Angeles, because I wanted to do narrative programing.

I was doing, basically, public affairs and documentaries.

I met Norman Lear.

You know, he adopted me, and I was inspired, really, when I first went out there by "All in the Family," because I saw that as a social-justice show.

It was about racism and it was making people laugh and think about it and see how a family was struggling with that, with their own racism.

So, the first black comedy club in Los Angeles was called the Comedy Act Theatre.

In fact, it was the first black comedy club in the country.

So, I used to go down there, and my peers used to say, "Why are you going down there?"

Because it was in Crenshaw, you know, at 45th and Crenshaw, which was the -- you know, the gang area, the gang-infested area.

And because I've been in SNCC, I'm not afraid to go anywhere where there are black people, you know?

So I'd go down there, and there was a comic down there named Robin Harris, who was a legend.

He was a comic that would talk about everybody who was in the room.

And it was like a DMZ zone.

The postal workers would be in there, the beauticians would be in there, the Crips would be in there, the Bloods would be in there, the police would be in there, and, eventually, people like Mike Tyson and Eddie Murphy and the Lakers would all come in to see him perform.

I got involved because I wanted to manage Robin because he was short, he had a chipped tooth, he had bloodshot eyes, he was overweight, and he was the funniest guy that everybody, you know, recognized as such.

And I thought that he deserved a shot.

So I took him on to manage him.

And -- But he kept saying, "You know, you should look at this kid Martin.

You know, Martin --" You know, people used to say he's funny-looking.

He's got big ears, you know, and he's funny.

But, you know, when he got more successful, people were saying, "He's kind of fine, he's kind of cute" and whatever.

So I took him on and then I had the relationships and I presented him to HBO, and the rest is history.

>> Well, you know, the "Martin" show was transformative in terms of network television, the role of comedy.

Also, now you're using comedy as a platform to promote social and racial and economic and justice.

You know, there's so much we need to talk about.

I'm just trying to put it all in context.

And then I want to get into the technology, because not only were you a leading TV producer, you're a leading data scientist.

The role that data is playing in America, the role that data is playing throughout the world today -- A.I., artificial intelligence.

I want to get all this in.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> But I want to get the transition now from television production to data research.

How did that happen?

>> I came back to Boston, which was my home, and, believe it or not, I had to make a decision, because, originally, I wanted to be a priest and I'd been offered that opportunity again.

And, by the way, I see my work as my ministry.

I'm going to be very honest with you, you know?

And so I went and interviewed at the Episcopal Divinity School.

And then I got more fascinated with technology because I would have more freedom, and at the Episcopal Divinity School, I didn't think I'd like my bosses, you know?

And I had never reported to anybody.

So I went to the Media Lab.

At the Media Lab, I got deeply interested in innovation and invention.

>> Now, is the Media Lab at MIT?

>> The Media Lab is at MIT.

It's where they developed GPS, touch screen, robotic housing, a whole number of things.

And I realized that, through innovation and invention, I could begin to develop things that would be designed to improve the quality of life in the urban experience, that I could invent things that would create, you know, economic power for the black community.

So technology and data and the kinds of things that can be imagined with technology as a tool and with coding to empower those things is off the hook.

So, you know, one of the things that they say at MIT is, "If you don't know what the future is, invent it."

And so I got very involved in innovation.

I built experiential-learning labs for Google.

You know, there's one in the Google headquarters in New York.

And what that basically does is, it takes eighth graders and it trains them to be engineers, architects, scientists.

>> Eighth graders.

>> Eighth graders.

It takes them all the way through the 12th grade.

And it uses a pedagogy of head and hand.

You know, if you can make something, the chances are you will become more interested in what it is.

And, so, my thought process is this.

When you're thinking about the future -- and I call it Afrofuturism -- if you think about how you are thinking about what you're thinking about, you will always get a different result.

You know, so, I've never been a robotic thinker.

I've always been someone, because of my architectural experience, thinks elliptically, rather than on a linear basis.

And as a -- And if you change perspective, you'll get 100 points of IQ.

So that's what feeds innovation, that feeds -- You know, "Where's the problem?

Can we make anything better?

Can we make anything new?"

And -- >> Well, that's a good segue to today.

I think our nation, our world is facing some challenges.

>> I agree.

>> There's digital disparities.

>> Yes.

>> There's technological disparities, depending on one's wealth or one's income or one's insight into innovation and technology.

And, of course, the economy also -- world economy is driven also by innovation.

How do you see technology leveling the playing field or does innovation and technology make it even more difficult for communities of color to be engaged with social and racial, economic, and climate transformation?

>> In my toolbox, there is something -- There are food-growth systems.

In Hong Kong, for example, where they have a land issue -- they don't have enough land, they have to import food -- they have built a 40-foot tower that grows food and supplies food, you know, to Hong Kong.

And that's all technologically driven.

You only need 10% of the water.

You get organic food that does not have to be imported.

>> Vertical farming.

>> Vertical farming.

That I see as a solution to the food deserts in urban -- In Black America and Brown America, I see that as a solution, because that means that organic food can be readily and more plentiful and more available for less money.

So that's one thing.

The second thing is, we have a housing problem, and everybody talks about affordable housing.

Robotic housing, in my estimation, is a solution to that.

It means that you can have less square footage, walls move, bed comes down, kitchen folds up against the wall, and the cost per unit is far less on a construction basis, but it's driven by technology.

>> So you're saying that the nation's homeless problem -- and it's growing in all the major cities -- food problems can be solved by innovation and technology.

>> No question.

And, so, here comes the other problem.

You know, the technology train is leaving the station.

We need to have more people, you know, who look like us in that engine, not in the caboose or not on the platform when it leaves.

So we have to be aggressive in our approach to causing these young minds to be exposed to the technology experience.

Now, the first big problem is exposure, because we have somehow come to believe that we can't be in that space, and that is absolutely wrong.

You know, once you get on the other side of the wall and you see what it's all about, you find out it's not as difficult as you think it is.

So -- >> So people shouldn't fear A.I., shouldn't fear technological innovation.

>> No.

>> They should weigh in and help shape -- You said something interesting earlier in the interview about shaping the future.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Not just letting the future happen.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> And Afrofuturism.

Can you comment a little bit more deeply?

>> If you look at our history, the history of the African-American experience, we're responsible for many of the great elements that are re-instigating and reinforcing the idea of democracy.

We, you know, are responsible for the slaves being emancipated, when people crossed the line and fought in the Union Army, okay?

We're responsible for the Voting Rights Act.

>> So the Emancipation Proclamation just wasn't something that Lincoln thought of politically.

>> No, no.

It became a thing that happened as a consequence of us providing the troops that won the war.

And then, when you think about the Voting Rights Act, you know, Bob Moses and SNCC and SCLC -- >> 1969 Voting Rights Act.

>> Okay?

And you think about the Civil Rights Act.

That's all us.

You know, it wasn't from outside our community.

So that same drive and initiative that, you know, is going to bring people into the realm of technology, knowledge, and skills is coming from us.

I mean, there were 150 computer clubhouses across the country, and there are -- We built labs, you know, from the Google experience, something called Code Next.

And there's one being now built in Detroit, Los Angeles, Atlanta.

There's one in Oakland.

There's one in in Durham.

And there's one in the Google headquarters in New York.

And every year, we turn out, you know, 1,000 young minds that are coming into this space.

>> Where do people get this information about, one, how young people can get in the pathway to learn data science, data research, computing?

What would you recommend?

>> I'd recommend two things -- something called Code Next, of which I am the founder, and that they go -- >> C-O-D-E?

>> C-O-D-E N-E-X-T. >> Dot-com?

>> Dot-com.

That they go to the computer clubhouses.

They're across the country.

And in Boston, for example, there's a computer clubhouse in every one of the Boys & Girls Clubs.

>> And that's open to the public?

>> It's open to the public.

It's open source.

Code Next is open source.

But it's basically demystifying technology for yourself and knowing that you can be a technologist, you can be a scientist.

You know, I'm sending up this payload to the International Space Station later in the year.

And what's -- >> Wait, wait.

Let's stop a minute.

>> Okay.

Okay.

>> Topper Carew... >> Yeah.

>> ...designed and produced a package that's going up to the International Space Station.

>> Right.

>> So you're not only architecting and designing stuff on Earth, you're doing it in space?

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Tell us about that.

>> The space colonization and space exploration is on, and we need to be in that, because in the U.S., there are only 3,500 astrophysicists who play on that field, and only 16 of them are African-American.

>> Of the 3,500, only 16 who are African-American.

>> Correct.

>> So that's a real career opportunity for somebody.

>> That's a real career opportunity.

And it's a real vacuum and it's a real gap.

And, so, the big thing about the whole space race is what it represents economically, in terms of new industries, you know, mining.

>> Explain that to our listening audience.

>> People are trying to get to the moon not necessarily for moon colonization.

They're trying to get to the moon so it can be a stop along the way to get to other places that are farther out in space.

That's one thing.

The second thing and the second reason that people want to go to the moon is for mining.

There are minerals, there are energy sources on the moon that could be very essential to the sustenance of our planet Earth, and that's why people are trying to get there.

And so the -- it's a very important zone, and some people are trying to just get off the planet, you know?

And we got to be in that, man.

We got to be a part of that, because, you know, I'm not interested in being left behind.

>> So, tell us about your project up at the space station.

I think it's "This Little Light of Mine"?

>> A song that had registered with me and continues to live in my heart, was often sung by a woman named Fannie Lou Hamer, who I met in the South.

>> Mississippi.

>> Mississippi.

Who was the chairwoman of the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party.

And that song has lived with me.

And so I decided that what I would do is have children's choirs from around the world -- put them in a film and plant the film with messages of love, peace, joy, hope, friendship, cooperation.

And so I made a film that I determined that I wanted to send up to the International Space Station that will broadcast back to Earth 16 times a day, because the International Space Station goes around the Earth at 17,500 miles an hour with these astronauts on it, and that means that it could come over Washington 16 times a day.

But the interesting thing was, we needed a piece of technology that could make that possible.

So, with some engineers, we designed a television studio that's the size of a shoebox, and that's what's going into the payload.

It goes up on a SpaceX rocket, which is a Musk rocket, catches up with the International Space Station, the cone does, a robotic arm comes out, grabs it, brings it into an airlock chamber, astronauts take it out of the cone, they plug it into a compartment that broadcasts the film back to Earth as data to a website which I built.

That website will allow you to see what it looks like when it's being broadcast back to Earth.

That's the NASA experiment.

That's the NASA side of it.

They want to know how fast that image degrades.

And then you'll go to another window on the website.

You'll see the film.

And then you go to another window in the website and you'll be able to see exactly where the International Space Station is at any time during the day via a tracking thing.

>> And this will be publicly accessible?

>> Oh, yeah, it's going to be -- I'm going to launch the website, and it's ready.

It's in beta.

It's already working.

But I don't want to launch it too early.

And it's called -- It'll be called ThisLittleLightofMine inSpace.com.

Anybody can go to it.

And then the last window on it is a glossary and an explanation of how this all happened, how you do this, because what I'm trying to do is inspire kids.

I want their families, you know, to not, you know, discourage their, you know, inspiration.

I want kids to think about, you could eventually do this.

Let me show you how this can happen and let me show you that it's easier than you think.

And you might choose this as a lifetime career.

>> It's been over 60 years since the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. rendered his famous "I Have a Dream" speech at the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom and Justice.

How do you assess the fulfillment of Dr. King's dream from your discipline vantage point.

>> I think we're still dreaming.

I think there's been some progress.

And people need to recognize that dreams can be -- And no matter how frail hope is, it's too strong to kill, okay?

And that in our moving forward constantly, we have to recognize that courage is just around the corner, but we have to have courage to call on it, okay?

That's -- You know?

And faith is real.

You know, faith is real.

>> Dr. Topper Carew, thank you immensely for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I'm glad to be here.

As you know, I'm loyal to the bone, man.

This is my life.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guest, please visit our website at... Also, follow us on Facebook, X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

♪♪