(bright upbeat music) - Welcome to "Forum 360," the show with a global outlook, but a local view.

Recently in East Palestine, Ohio, the community has been inflamed, engulfed by a devastating Norfolk Southern train derailment, which happened on February 3rd at 8:54 p.m. and included toxic chemical releases which followed.

There have already been 16 class action lawsuits that have been filed, but let's talk today about constructively addressing challenges, perhaps how to turn down the temperature.

We welcome to "Forum 360" Ohio Super Lawyer (Gary chuckles) Gary Corroto.

He's an Akron and Canton lawyer, graduated Westminster College of the University of Akron, my alma mater, School of Law, where he was a member of the University of Akron School of Law moot court team.

And he has been named an Ohio Super Lawyer four times by the Cincinnati magazine, and more than a decade in, he's been called a Super Lawyer by "Super Lawyer Magazine" from 2010 to 2023.

He's also been designated by his peers as one of the best lawyers in America from 2014 till this year in commercial litigation, in corporate law.

His practice includes business litigation, commercial transactions, real estate transactions, mergers, acquisitions, business law, et cetera, et cetera, and all those other real legal subjects, (Gary chuckles) not the telephone attorney that I always have been.

He chairs and serves on numerous special committees and has made many presentations on a whole variety of topics.

On behalf of "Forum 360," welcome.

- Well, thank you for that kind introduction.

It's my pleasure to be here, and- - You can pay me later.

(Gary laughs) No, we're here talking about a very serious subject.

- Sure.

- What happened at East Palestine, and maybe you could just sum it up a bit.

- Yeah, and I think the train derailment occurred now a little over a month ago, and I think as we get further away from that date, it's important to kinda go back and reframe things and make sure that we remember just the scope of this catastrophe.

And when I do that, I'm often reminded of a quote that I saw from the chief of the hazmat organization from a Mahoning county, who was one of the first people to arrive on the scene, and someone asked him to describe what he saw when he got there, and his statement was, "It was like the doors of hell were opened.

It was so hot, the flames were at least 100 feet high."

So that's the scope of this catastrophe, and then since that time in the last month, everybody's been trying to deal with the fallout, and so that's kind of where we are today.

- It was said by the head of one of these organizations that this was totally preventable.

- That's correct, yeah.

The National Transportation Safety Board came out and said that this accident was 100% preventable, and it's not typical for a federal agency to make those kinds of statements so early on in the investigation.

And what that tells me as a lawyer who we're out doing our own investigation is that that the evidence must be pretty clear that there were some serious mistakes made in not catching the problem early enough and then acting so as to prevent the derailment and the terrible consequences that followed.

- Has anybody been held accountable at this point?

- You know, not at this point in time.

Norfolk Southern has been somewhat active in the community.

Their activity there kind of ebbs and flows.

They are still out there, along with the EPA, working on remediation.

As recently as over the weekend, they're trying to remove parts of the track, and that brings me to an interesting point.

The very first order of business after the accident occurred was to restore the track and get trains running again on these tracks, and before the residents who were evacuated even returned to their homes, the trains were up and running.

Now, the EPA and other organizations are requiring Norfolk Southern now to go back and excavate the dirt and material under those tracks, which may be contaminated.

That work has started now over the weekend.

And so there's those kinds of early remediation going on.

Norfolk Southern has offered some minimal payments to people in the area as an inconvenience fee.

They did participate in a town hall with CNN, and at that point did answer some questions after having earlier refused to appear at another town hall meeting.

So I think that they've dipped their toe in the water, but we'll see what happens going forward.

- By the way, just so our audience knows, we did invite a number of the organizations that you've already mentioned, including Norfolk Southern and the Ohio EPA, the U.S. EPA, and other folks.

I won't embarrass anybody by mentioning all the names, but we really made an attempt to bring in all points of view.

There's certainly been a lot of activity.

You were talking about the soil that was contaminated.

Hasn't a lot of it been taken out of state to- - Much of it has and there's testing been ongoing.

One of the issues is, though, that the testing, most of it's being done right in the immediate area of the derailment site and we don't believe that there's been adequate testing yet of ground and water and air as you get further away from the site, because if you'll recall, they did what they called a controlled burn of the chemicals that were in these tankers.

They said that there was- - Vinyl chloride.

- Yeah, exactly right, the vinyl chloride, and there was an imminent danger of an explosion, so they burned it off.

Well, when they burned that off, that sent plumes of smoke and ash way into the air that the wind took and scattered among other areas, and so there's gonna have to be testing in a broader area to see if that helped actually spread the contamination.

As it relates to the soil, they've taken soil out.

Some of that soil has been moved to other places, but I saw a report over the weekend that was very concerning that they were contemplating taking some of the soil to a site at East Liverpool, which is only about 10 or 12 miles away from East Palestine, and actually burning it and incinerating it, and many environmentalists were up in arms over that possibility because they said, "Look, if that's contaminated soil, you're going to burn it, all you're gonna do is re-release those toxins back into the air and threaten contaminating even a larger area of the area around the derailment site.

So there have been some work going on and we're gonna have to look at how they've been doing that work and whether it's been effective or not.

- It's been such a Herculean, gargantuan effort.

So many people involved, so many first responders.

The railroad, the government.

Have you any idea how many different organizations and people are involved in this so far?

- Well, you've named kinda the broad groups involved, and there are that interface between private companies like Norfolk Southern, many lawyers have their own experts out there doing testing and trying to figure out what's going on.

There are outside contractors that have been used to do some of this remediation.

Now they've gotta interface with both local, state, and federal agencies.

So it has been an enormous undertaking and- - And then a moving target.

- Well, that's exactly right.

- Wasn't there another derailment in Ohio just this past week on Saturday, I believe?

- There was, there was a derailment, another Norfolk Southern train in Clark County, Ohio.

My understanding- - That's western Ohio.

- Yeah, that's right.

and my understanding is that it did have cars carrying toxic chemicals on it, but it's my understanding those were not among the cars that derailed, so you didn't have the scope of what we've had in East Palestine, but it shows you that the danger is there and it's ever present.

I mean, there are hundreds of train derailments a year across the country.

We're very, very fortunate that we don't have more incidents like they've had in East Palestine.

- How do we view the effect to the environment from something like this?

- Well, you know, it's very difficult to get your arms around, because a lot of the effect doesn't manifest itself until years later.

So, for example, the state and federal agencies have been consistently testing water and air in the area immediately around the derailment and they've told us that their tests come back, that there's no heightened levels of toxins and things in either the air or the water, but a lot of these toxins get into the ground and it could take months or years before they seep down into the aquifer and start to affect groundwater, well water.

The other thing that we've gotta be worried about is the way these chemicals interact with other chemicals and substances that are in the environment, and oftentimes they can create even more dangerous compounds than were being carried originally in the cars that derailed.

So one of the things that makes this so difficult, and it's so unnerving for the residents, are that the effects of this may not be felt for months or even years down the road.

- Well, I've been reading about the impact on wildlife, on water animals, on farm animals.

What are you hearing?

What are the facts?

- Well, there are- - I mean, the numbers seem staggering.

- They are staggering.

I think that the Ohio Department of Wildlife, I've seen numbers of anywhere between 3,500 and 4,500 fish that died almost immediately when the vinyl chloride got into the water and the streams in those areas.

We've heard reports of family pets being killed.

I even over this past weekend heard a report from someone that said that they have chickens in the area and that recently the eggs that they have been laying do not look to be natural, do not look to be right, and are starting to look into that.

Farmers are very concerned about their livestock in the area.

I mean, who is gonna go out and buy livestock from a farm in that area under these circumstances?

So there's a lot on the line for a lot of people.

- What has the economic impact been, from your perspective?

- It's been devastating.

I represent some small business owners in that area and they have told me that they were able to get their insurance companies to pay for some lost profits for a four or five-week period of time, but many of them, they're gonna face bankruptcy in the next 60 to 90 days if things continue to go on the way that they're going on now.

As an example, I have a client who has a pizza business.

They were selling 600 pizzas a week before the derailment.

Now they're selling 30, and that has not picked up or gotten better over time.

It's actually started to get worse, and he's worried that he's not gonna be able to remain in business.

And we've got to do something to help these small business owners in that area survive in the short term, until we can figure out what the long-term implications are gonna be and how Norfolk Southern's gonna be held to account for those things.

- Has anybody been talking about potential second-generation effects?

- Yeah, and that has started.

- I mean, you talk about eggs with chickens.

- Yeah.

(chuckles) - How 'bout eggs for people?

- And that's exactly right, and they've started to look into that because one of the things that vinyl chloride can do is it greatly increases the chances of liver cancer and other types of cancer.

You know, you have mothers.

There are pregnant mothers in that town.

- Yeah, angiosarcoma.

- There are young children.

Yeah, there are younger children, and so, yes, as the focus starts to turn toward the broader effects of what's going on, that is a topic that's been of concern for people.

- You're tuned into "Forum 360."

Today our special guest is Mr. Gary Corotto and we're talking about the train derailment that happened in East Palestine and related issues.

We were just talking about medical concerns and that type of thing.

What are some of the things that can be done to alleviate concerns by people?

- One of the things that I would like to see happen that hasn't happened yet, and I think, in my opinion, oughtta be part of the response from the state and federal agencies, is to set up testing facilities in and around the area where these people can be tested to find out if there are these toxins in their system.

Test their blood and their urine and document what level of toxins these people have been exposed to.

It's very difficult to find places that can do it, especially in that area and that are close by or that have the time and the capability to do it.

In addition to that, the state of Ohio did a few weeks ago open up a clinic where people could come to get their symptoms and the things they're dealing with looked at.

- A mobile lab.

- A mobile lab, but even the medical clinic has been overrun.

There's so many people trying to get into it that it's not large enough, doesn't have enough people to be able to accommodate everyone because you cannot necessarily go to your family physician for this.

You need to go to a toxicologist, somebody who's trained to recognize symptoms from toxic exposure and how those symptoms manifest themselves in people.

And so I think those are the kinds of things that we ought to be doing now to try to put these people's mind at ease.

- Now, I noticed that recently the government started testing or announced that they'd be testing for dioxins.

Could you explain why that might be important or what- - Well, I mean, it's very important because dioxins are things that stay around for a long, long time and dioxins have a history of causing generational misdevelopment and issues for children and future generations, like you talked about, and they're not always easily detectable and sometimes they come from a combination of these chemicals mixing together in the ground.

And at first, the EPA was hesitant to test for dioxins, but as you pointed out, I think they've recently said they're now gonna be doing those testings.

I can tell you that many of the lawyers involved in lawsuits in the area are having their experts do that kind of testing.

- As you look over all the things that are going on, what are other things that government might be doing to make people feel better, to have confidence in the system?

- Yeah, well, I think they've really started to...

They need to start getting to a point where the information they're providing everyone is consistent.

There's been a lot of consistency.

A lot of information has come out and drips and drabs and then gets changed as it moves down the road, so a lot of residents don't trust the information that they're getting.

I think the other thing that they need to do, as I pointed out before, is I think they need to do some emergency things, kinda like they did with COVID.

In other words, create some funds that small business owners in the community can go to in the short term and get forgivable loans to try to keep their businesses open and operating.

They're gonna have to address for the folks in East Palestine, what are they gonna do about the property values that have been destroyed by this and the stigma created by this on the community?

And those are things, I think, that need to start happening now so that the people there know that they can have faith in their future in the community they've chosen to live in and raise their families in.

- There was a movie made a couple years ago called "White Noise," which was about a train wreck, I think occurring in East Palestine or nearby.

(Gary chuckles) Perhaps they'd make a movie with a happier ending next time.

- Oh, boy.

You know, I would hope so.

I mean, and that, that's the heartbreaking thing is, and I've spent time there talking to residents and we spent a lot of time talking to our clients.

People just don't know what to do.

They don't know how to protect themselves.

They're in this area, again, where they've spent their entire lives.

They have their families there, their children there, and they don't know what to do to protect their families.

Should they be... Is it safe to make formula for their babies with water there?

Is it safe to be there at all, to breathe that air?

What options do they have?

Where can they go?

And it's that uncertainty that has led to the fear and frustration.

- Have there been any resettlement discussions of temporary residences for people?

- No, I mean, so far Norfolk Southern has offered some stipends to temporarily relocate some people.

Recently they went back out again and offered people within a one mile radius of the derailment site, they would pay for them to leave again, because now as they remove the tracks, they're digging up more contaminated soil, which is causing more odor in the area and stronger odors like when the train originally derailed and so they're moving some people back out again, but other than those very short-term things, there hasn't been anything discussed.

- So what are some of the things that a company like the railroad company could do to be ahead of the curve?

I'm sure they feel like they're doing as much as they can, but are there things that you look at it and say thoughtful folks might consider this unique approach or something?

- Yeah, well, I think part of it is kinda what I talked about before.

I think assessing immediately, what do the residents there need?

What are the basic needs that that need to be satisfied?

And of course, water and food and those things, and that's been happening, but get them tested, right?

These people are afraid about what kind of exposure they've had and whether they've been poisoned.

Get them tested, and if they have been poisoned, then immediately get them assistance and get them treatment.

If they haven't, at least their minds now can be at ease to say, hey, look, this has been terrible, it's been tragic, but thank goodness I don't have any levels of poisons or toxins in my body.

It's those kinds of things that I think could put these people at ease.

- Have you spoken with first responders?

- You know, I have.

I have spoken with some first responders and several who don't live in the area but came into the area to do their work and many of them are suffering from the same types of symptoms that the residents there have complained of.

I've spoken and seen photos of one that have rashes all up and down his arms from the time that he's been there.

They complain of burning eyes, sore throat, lasting fatigue and headaches, and so that is a big concern, because there were dozens of fire departments and emergency rescue crews on site when the accident occurred.

- What do you think of the decision to have a burnoff of some of the chemicals, or is it too soon to make an evaluation of that?

- Well, I think it is too soon to make an evaluation, but it certainly is something we are going to evaluate.

I mean, we have been told that that was the only choice and it was gonna explode if they didn't take the steps that they've taken, and that may be true, but that's certainly something we're gonna investigate.

And then the next issue is- - Vinyl chloride will explode.

- Right, yeah.

And then the next issue is how did they do it and did they do it in a way that was the safest way they could possibly do it?

So we're gonna look at all of those things.

- Let me give you a different question.

What advice might you have for children who might be interested in a career where they're helping the environment, ensuring safety?

- Sure.

Well, you know, I think that there's a lot of opportunities for them, particularly one of the areas that we don't know what kind of an impact it's gonna have.

You know, this is a rural area.

There are a lot of farms in that area and this happens to be a time of year where they haven't planted and done those things.

- [Sally] How do they do that?

(Gary laughs) - Well, I mean, they've gotta...

So to be involved in organizations that can get it out there and evaluate that kinda thing, maybe do studies on the impact that these kinds of things have on animals, have on the growing season, have on produce that's gonna be grown in the area, because I think when the spring comes, that's a segment of the population there that's gonna be devastated.

- It's mind-boggling, isn't it?

- It really is, it really is, and it's sad.

It's just very sad, because again, as you pointed it out before, 100% preventable.

- So what else can the federal and state and local governments do to restore the confidence of the people that live there and of the first responders that report to them?

- I mean, I think they just have to be accurate and they have to be transparent and there can't be this change in the type of information, the things they're testing for.

They need to be accurate and transparent from the beginning and active in the area and put the needs of the people first.

- And have you thought about what sorts of regulations or laws need to be passed or enforced that might prevent this kind of thing from happening or minimize the impact of it?

- Yeah, I mean, I think there are a few things.

One is they've gotta do a better job of regulating speed and the speed at which these trains can move through populated areas.

The other thing they have to do is put more stringent testing and safety requirements in and make sure that these companies are investing enough money in enough inspectors, giving them proper equipment and the things they need to do to be able to make sure that these trains are safe, and if they're equipped with the most modern safety equipment and alarming systems to let 'em know when something's wrong.

- Yeah, I've heard that they have very low staff ratios- - They do.

- -on those trains and that perhaps that'll be looked at, that there's a human being taking a look to see if something's sparking as it goes down the- - Exactly.

- As it goes down the straight.

- Yep, exactly.

- It's a lot to think about, isn't it?

- Sure, yeah, it sure is.

- Yeah, what made you decide to get interested in this topic?

- Well, I grew up not far from there.

I grew up in Poland, which is about 15 miles from East Palestine.

I know people in the area.

- Yeah, near Pittsburgh too.

- Yeah, exactly right, near Pittsburgh.

And so I really thought that our firm had a unique set of skills that we could really get in there and help and make a difference for these people from a local perspective.

- And so what made you decide to be a lawyer?

(Gary chuckles) - You know, I liked- - Just got lucky, huh?

- Yeah, surprisingly enough, as a kid growing up, I really liked politics and it seemed like lawyers were involved in important decisions in the community and those kinds of things.

Now I wouldn't become a politician (laughs) for all the money in the world, but that's what got me started.

- Well, they have some certainly unique challenges in this.

- Oh, absolutely.

- There are massive efforts going on, and yet it seems like a drop in the bucket.

How do you- - It is, and part of that is coordination too.

How are they gonna work together, the various agencies, to do something that's gonna have a real impact?

But you know, the impact is just so vast and enormous, as you point out.

You can throw all these resources at it, but at the end of the day, it still is just a drop in the bucket and these resources are gonna have to continue to be invested for a long period of time to make sure these people are taken care of.

- What's the most important lesson from the derailment at East Palestine, from your point of view?

- I think that the most important lesson is that you can't take shortcuts on inspectors, maintenance, safety equipment, and those kinds of things.

We've gotta incentivize businesses in this country to have the greatest and latest version of all of those things, because I think if, and this is just my opinion based on what I've seen so far, but I think if we had that, then as the National Transportation Safety Board said, these kinds of things are preventable.

- [Sally] It would've been prevented.

- Yeah.

- You're tuned in today to "Forum 360."

Our special guest today, Mr. Gary Corotto.

We've been talking about the derailment in East Palestine.

On behalf of "Forum 360," I'm Sally Henning.

(bright upbeat music) - [Narrator] "Forum 360" is brought to you by John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Akron Community Foundation, Hudson Community Television, the Rubber City Radio Group, Shaw Jewish Community Center of Akron, Blue Green, Electric Impulse Communications, and "Forum 360" supporters.