>>> NOW WITH TRUST IN LEADERSHIP AND DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS FALTERING AROUND THE WORLD, "NEW YORK TIMES" BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES EDDIE GLORD JUNIOR DISCUSSES WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HOW WE CAN LEARN FROM HISTORY.

>> THANK YOU AND WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT'S GOING TO BE WITH YOU, WALT.

>> SO YOU'VE GOT THIS NEW BOOK OUT CALLED "WE'RE THE LEADERS WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR," AND IT'S A COLLECTION OF YOUR 2011 DUBOIS LECTURES AT HARVARD.

TELL ME WHY YOU WENT BACK AFTER A DOZEN YEARS TO LOOK AT THESE LECTURES AGAIN?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ALWAYS A DELIGHT TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE SENSE OF THE MOMENT, TO KIND OF SEE WHERE WE'VE BEEN AND WHERE WE'VE COME.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I GAVE THESE LECTURES MICHAEL BROWN WAS STILL ALIVE.

GEORGE FLOYD HADN'T MOVED FROM HOUSTON TO MINNEAPOLIS.

SANDRA BLAND WAS STILL BLOGGING, KNOW, AND I WAS GROWING IN SO MANY WAYS AS AN INTELLECT YASHLGS AS A WRITER, AND SO I WANTED TO IN SOME WAYS FIGURE OUT, WALTER, MY JOURNEY.

I WANTED TO PICK UP THE PIECES BECAUSE IN SOME WAYS THE POLITICS OF THE MOMENT, COVID, I FELT LIKE I HAD BEEN BROKEN IN TWO SO I HAD TO RIGHT MYSELF INTO SOMETHING, SO THIS BECOME IS THIS KIND OF COMBINATION AVERETT SPECTIVE KIND OF THINKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY AS SUCH BECAUSE THE IDEAS I HAD BEEN THINKING ABOUT FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS, 12 YEARS, KIND OF FIND THEIR BEGINNINGS IN THESE LECTURES AND IN SO MANY WAYS IT'S -- IT'S AN ACT OF SELF-CREATION, KIND OF A REFLECT I DON'T KNOW ON WHO I TAKE MYSELF TO BE AN AN INTELLECTUAL AND SKULLARY.

>>> AND YOU SAY YOU WERE BROKEN AT THE TIME AND HAD YOU TO WRITE IN ORDER TO FIX YOURSELF.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES, YOU KNOW.

IT'S NOT JUST OUR POLITICS, IT'S US.

I MEAN, I HAD TO DEAL WITH COVID AND A MILLION PEOPLE ARE DEAD.

A COUPLE OF MY FRIENDS, CLOSE FRIENDS ARE DEAD.

AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW DO I FIND MY FEET?

HOW DO I FIND MY VOICE IN THIS MOMENT?

HOW DO I SPEAK THROUGH THE QUAY OS?

AND SO I THINK RETURNING TO THESE LECTURES AND LOOKING BACK IS IN SOME KAYS WHAT WAS AN EFFORT TO KIND OF STITCH TOGETHER THE PIECES THAT I AM, YOU KNOW, AND SO IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH MY RELATIONSHIP, NOT ONLY TO THE POLITICAL MOMENT BUT OUR PARTICULAR DEMOCRACY AS SUCH AND SOMETHING TO DO WITH MY OWN INTELLECTUAL FORMATION.

THERE'S A CLICHE AT THE HEART OF THE BOOK, WE ARE THE LEADERS WE HAVE THIS LOOKING FOR.

THAT SEEMS RIGHT.

AND THE LEADERS THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR MEANING WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEMOCRACY AND BECOME BETTER PEOPLE.

JAMES BALDWIN HAS A WONDERFUL FORMATION, THAT THE MESSINESS OF THE WORLD IS ACTUALLY A REFLECTION OF THE MESSINESS OF OUR INTERIOR LIVES, THAT IF WE WANT TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER, WE HAVE TO BECOME BETTER, AND SO IN THIS BOOK I NOT ONLY CLAIM THAT WE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEMOCRACY, WE ALSO NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR REACHING FOR HIGHER FORMS OF EXCELLENCES, BECOMING BETTER PEOPLE, YEAH.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THE LEADERS THAT WE'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR, A TITLE.

IT ACTUALLY COMES FROM ELLA BAKER.

>> YEAH, SHE IS A HERO OF MINE AND I HAVE A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH LEADER IN THE BOOK.

THINK ABOUT THE 20th CENTURY MOVEMENT, MISS BAKER WAS AT THE CENTER OF IT.

SHE WAS ORGANIZING IN THE SOUTH IN THE 1940s.

IF IT WASN'T FOR HER AND HER RELATIONSHIP WITH ANNE ZI MOORE IN MISSISSIPPI, BOB EVANS WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD THAT CONNECTION WHEN HE MADE HIS WAY TO MISSISSIPPI AND McCOOMBS AND SHE WAS THE FIRST DIRECTOR OF THE CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE TO LIEUTENANT LIEUTENANT JR. AND SHE ORGANIZED SCLC, AND WHEN ALL OF THOSE STUDENT IN THE 1960s IN NASHVILLE AND NORTH CAROLINA AND THAN THEA ENGAGED IN THOSE STUDENT SIT-INS, SHE HELPED ORGANIZE A CONFERENCE AT SHAW UNIVERSITY IN APRIL 1960, WALTER, THAT LED TO THE FORMATION OF THE STUDENT NONVIOLENT COORDINATING COMMITTEE AND HAD A WONDERFUL PHILOSOPHY.

SHE USED TO TELL SOME OF THE SNIC STUDENTS WHO WERE 18, 19 AND 20 WHO USED TO GO INTO THE BOWELS OF THE SOUTH, SHUT UP, YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

SHUT UP AND LISTEN, YOU MOOUST MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING.

HER TASK WAS TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH ORDINARY PEOPLE COULD UNDERSTAND THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PURSUE THEIR INTERESTS.

SHE HAD A FUNDAMENTAL FAITH IN SELF-GOVERNOR INCHES AND A FUNDAMENTAL FAITH IN ORDINARY PEOPLE.

>> YES, AND SHE CALLED IT SORT OF PUIG FOCUSED RATHER THAN PULPIT FOCUSED AND THAT'S A THEME OF THIS BECOME.

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I'M SKEPTICAL OF LEADERSHIP THAT ASKS YOU AND ME TO GIVE UP OUR DISTINCTIVE VOICES AND FOLLOW THEM.

I'M SKEPTICAL OF FANS IN THE PEWS, POEM WHO ARE JUST COMING INTO CHURCHES AND BEING LED BY PASTORS AS IF THEY ARE JUST SIMPLY SHEEP BEING SHEPHERDED TO, YOU KNOW, TO THE PASTURES AS IT WERE.

MISS BAKER UNDERSTOOD, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US IN THIS MOMENT, THAT EACH OF US HAS THE CAPACITY FOR GREATNESS, THAT WE'RE THE PROPHETS THAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR, NOT PROPHETS ANOINTED FROM ON HIGH, BUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE BEYOND THE LIMITATIONS OF NOW HAVE AND TO IMAGINE A FUTURE THAT CAN GUIDE OUR ACTIONS IN THE PRESENT AS A PROPHETIC ACT OR EMERSON IN "REPRESENTATIVE MEN" TELLING US THAT GREAT PEOPLE COME TO US TO MAKE EVEN GREATER PEOPLE POSSIBLE, THAT WE'RE NOT HERE TO GET LOST IN THE OBAMAS OR IN THE JESS ERKSZ OR IN THE KINGS OR IN THE MOUNTAINS OR EVEN ELLA BAKERS, THAT ANY LAW THAT WALTER ISAAC SOVIET REPUBLIC, YOU'RE VOICES ARE DISTINCT AND HAVE HISTORICAL RESONANCE SO I LOVE THIS PEW CENTER FOCUS, YOU KNOW, AND AT ET HEART OF IT, WALTER SHE HAS WHAT I'M CALLING FOLLOWING THE POLITICS OF TENDING.

IT'S ROUTED CLOSE TO THE GROUND, NOT ABOUT ABSTRACTION ITERATIONS THAT ALLOWS US TO FALL FOR THE SIREN SONGS AND AUTOCRATS AND SAVIORS.

WE'RE THE SAVIORS WE'RE LOOKING FOR YOU.

>> MENTIONED THE PHILOSOPHER RALPH WALDO EMERSON WHO PLAYS A BIG THEM IN YOUR BECOME AND IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE'S A THREAD THAT GOES THROUGH THROUGH TO RALPH WALDO ELLISON WHO BY THE WAY GAVE THE GRADUATION SPEECH WHEN I GRADUATED IN 1974 AND LOOKED AT THE PEOPLE ON MEMORIAL HALL, THOSE NAMES, AND YOU MENTIONED THIS IN THE BOOK WHO HAD FOUGHT TO END SLAVERY, AND HE SAID WE'RE NOT HONORING THEIR LEGACY.

TALK ABOUT EMERSON TO ELLISON IN YOUR MIND THAT WAY AND THE LEGACY.

>> THAT BLEW MY MIND.

I DID NOT KNOW YOU WERE THERE, WALTER.

THAT'S AMAZING.

ELLISON HE'S SO IMPORTANT TO ME AND IN SO MANY WAYS HE'S THE -- HE'S THE FIGURE THAT STANDS ALONGSIDE BALDWIN IN MY IMAGINATION, RIGHT?

AND ELLISON'S INSISTENCE IN THAT MOMENT THAT -- BECAUSE HE'S IN THE MOMENT, YOU KNOW, '74, AS YOU KNOW, AS A GRADUATING SENIOR WAS A MOMENT OF EXTRAORDINARY TURMOIL.

THE NATION DIDN'T QUITE KNOW WHO IT WAS AND WHERE IT WAS GOING, THE CONFLICTS OF THE '60s AND THE NIXON ERA HAD -- HAD REALLY GRABBED AHOLD OF PEOPLE'S IMAGINATION, AND ELLISON WAS TRYING TO SAYING THAT IT'S NECESSARY FOR US TO LOOK OUR PAST SQUARELY IN THE FACE, TO KNOW FROM WHENCE WE CAME AS THE PRE-CONDITION FOR US TO BE CONSCIOUS AND CONSCIENCE, TO EXPRESS CONSCIENTIOUSNESS ABOUT WHERE WE NEED TO GO, SO I THINK FOR HIM IN THAT MOMENT, WOW IN, THAT MOMENT IN '74, HE OFFERS ME LANGUAGE FOR OUR CURRENT MOMENT NOW.

A KIND OF HONEST ASSESSMENT OF WHO WE ARE IN LIGHT OF WHO WE CAN BE AN WHAT HAS MADE US WHO WE ARE.

I THINK, YEAH.

>> LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING FROM THE BOOK THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.

>> SURE.

>> WHICH IS THE ATTITUDE, THE TROUBLES IN THIS COUNTRY RESTS AS IT IS ALWAYS HAS WITH THE WILLINGNESS OF EVERYDAY PEOPLE TO FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY, NOT WITH THE OUTSOURCING OF THAT STRUGGLE TO SO-CALLED PROFITS AND HEREOS AND THEN YOU GO ON A BIT AND SAY WE MUST BE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE DEMOCRACY REQUIRES.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE DOES DEMOCRACY REQUIRE?

>> AN AFOREMENTION OF DIGNITY OF ORDINARY FOLK, A COMMITMENT TO THE DEMOCRATIC VIRTUES OF FREEDOM AND OPEN-ENDED INQUIRY, SLIGHT WHAT ELSE IS DEMOCRACY, ELLISSON SAID, WALTER, A DISINTERESTED FORM OF LOVE.

WHAT DOES THAT MOAB?

I DON'T HAVE TO KNOW YOU, BUT I WANT TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT AFFIRMS YOUR ABILITIES IT NOT ONLY DREAM DREAMS AND MAKE THOSE DRONES A REALITY.

YOU KNOW, AT THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY IS A HISTORY RIFF WITH OUR EXAMPLE OF THE WILLINGNESS TO THROW THOSE VIRTUES INTO THE TRASH KAFNLT I USED THIS EXAMPLE OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN WHO GAVE US THIS UNDERSTANDING OF DEMOCRACY IN THE SECOND FOUNDING WHERE HE WEAVES THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE INTO THE CONSTITUTION, RIGHT, THE DECLARATION OF THE EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN BECOMES THE ETHICAL FRAME OF THE CONDITIONS TUESDAY ITSELF, BUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN COULDN'T BECOME THE MAN THAT HIS CONCEPTION OF DEMOCRACY REQUIRED BECAUSE HE BELIEVED WHITE PEOPLE MATTERED MORE THAN OTHERS, BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY WAS INVESTED IN THE IDEA THAT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN DETERMINED ONE'S VALUE.

IF WE'RE GOING TO BE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE THAT DEMOCRACIES REQUIRE, WE'LL HAVE TO BECOME BETTER PEOPLE AND IN THE UNITED STATES, WALTER, THAT MEANS WE'LL HAVE TO FINALLY GIVE UP THIS IDEA THAT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN DETERMINES ONE'S VALUE.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE COLOR OF ONE'S SKIN DETERMINING VALUE, IT SORT OF CLASHES TO WITH THIS BACKLASH AGAINST DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, AND I THINK YOU HAVE A PHRASE IN THERE, HERE IT IS, WHICH IS YOU TALK ABOUT THE REALITY OF THE AMERICANNESS OF AMERICAN DIVERSITY.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING NOW WITH THIS REALLY ALMOST TSUNAMI-LIKE BACKLASH AGAINST THE CONCEPTS OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION?

>> I WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS A WHOLE AGO.

YOU KNOW, ON APRIL 6, 1970 AT ONE OF YOUR OLD, OLD GIGS, WALTER, "TIME" MAGAZINE PUBLISHED A SPECIAL ISSUE, JESSE JACKSON WAS ON THE COVERAGE, AND IN THAT SPECIAL ISSUE WAS AN ESSAY WRITTEN BY ELLISON ENTITLED WHAT WOULD AMERICA BE LIKE WITHOUT BLACKS" AND ELLISON WAS TRYING TO REFLECT ON THIS.

HE SAYS SOMETHING LICK THIS.

HE SAYS WHENEVER THE NATION GETS WEARY ABOUT ITS STRUGGLE AROUND DEMOCRATIC EQUALITY, IT REACHES -- IT REACHES FOR SECESSION OR IT REACHES FOR THE FANTASY OF A LILY WHITE AMERICA.

WHEN WE GET TIRED OF TRYING TO BE A GENERALLY MULTI-RACIAL DEMOCRACY WE EITHER WANT TO GET RID OF FOLK, DEPORT THEM, COLONIZATION, PASS DRACONIAN IMMIGRATION LAWS OR WE WANT TO PUT FOLK IN THEIR PLACE, MAKE THEM SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, RIGHT?

WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT OURS IS A WHITE NATION IN THE VAIN OF OLD EUROPE.

WE'RE IN ONE OF THOSE FEVER DREAMS RIGHT NOW, SO PART OF OUR TASK IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SOUL OF THE COUNTRY, THE SOUL OF AMERICA HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN ITS DIVERSITY AND UNIT IY, ITS UNITY AND DIVERSITY.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN IN THE NATURE THAT -- THAT THE PARTICULAR CHARACTER OF OUR ACCENT, THE WAY WE SPEAK ENGLISH IT IS HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, THAT CUISINE THAT YOU LOVE SO MUCH IN IN THE WALLS, IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC, HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE LITERATURE FROM THE PEOPLE THAT I'M FROM IN MISSISSIPPI, FROM TENNESSEE WILLIAMS TO RICHARD WRIGHT AND JUSTICE WAR.

IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE SOUND, THAT SWING THAT COMES OUT OF THE BLUES AND THE DELTA AND THE JAZZ IN DUKE ELLINGTON'S COMPOSITIONS.

THAT'S WHO WE ARE.

AND WHEN WE DENY, IT WE REFUSE TO ACCEPT WHO WE ARE AND THAT'S THE KIND OF ADOLESCENTS THAT CAN MAKE US MONSTROUS SO WE'RE IN THAT MOMENT AGAIN, AND OUR TASK I THINK AS WRITERS, AT ARTISTS IS TO LAY BARE AS PLAINLY AND AS POWERFULLY AS WE CAN, RIGHT, THE PROMISE, THE POWER OF THE AMERICAN -- OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT, IT SEEMS TO ME.

>> SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT DONALD TRUMP IF HE COMES BACK TO THE WHITE HOUSE, THAT ONE OF THE GOALS IS TO FOCUS ON ANTI-WHITE RACISM.

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THE PROPOSAL?

>> FARCICAL, ENROIJING, YOU KNOW.

YOU KNOW, MY DAD COULDN'T GO TO PRINCETON.

HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ATTEND HARVARD, MAYBE BOWDOIN, OVERLAND PERHAPS.

WE JUST GOT ACCESS TO THESE PLACES.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THERE'S FOLKS -- THERE ARE FOLKS STILL WALKING AROUND THIS COUNTRY, WALTER, WITH INTIMATE MEMORIES OF JIM CROW.

IT'S TATTOOED ON THEIR ARMS.

MY DAD REFUSED TO GO TO MISSISSIPPI NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE CRINKLE FRIES ARE BECAUSE HE EXPERIENCED A MOMENT OF HUMILIATION WHERE THEY FORCED HIM TO GO TO THE BACK OF THE STORE.

MY FORMER COLLEAGUE AL LOST HIS FATHER, SHOT IN THE HEAD IN BAY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI.

THESE AREN'T DISTANT MEMORY, WE HAD TO COME TO THE BRINK TO GET THIS MOMENT AND NOW WE'RE IN THIS MOMENT THAT FOLKS ARE THINKING THAT BIG GOVERNMENT IS PUTTING ITS THUMB ON THE SCALE, RIGHT, SO THAT WE CAN GO BACK TO A NOSTALGIC LONGING WHERE SOMEHOW BEING WHITE AFFECTS THE DISTRIBUTION OF ADVANTAGE AN DISADVANTAGE?

THESE FOLKS HAVE ALWAYS THREATENED TO CHOKE THE LIFE OUT OF DEMOCRACY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING AND IF WE'RE NOT HONEST ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING THEN WE'RE COMPLICIT IN WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND THAT SEEMS TO ME ONE OF THE CHARGES AND CHALLENGES OF THE BOOK.

IT'S NOT JUST THAT I HAVE TO BECOME BETTER OR BLACKS HAVE TO BECOME BETTER PEOPLE.

AMERICANS HAVE TO BECOME BETTER PEOPLE, AND IN ORDER TO DO THAT, RIGHT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEMOCRACY AS SUCH.

>> WHEN DONALD TRUMP RAN FOR PRESIDENT AGAINST HILLARY CLINTON, YOU DIDN'T VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON.

YOU MADE A MISTAKE YOU SAID.

>> YEAH.

>> NOWADAYS DO YOU THINK IT'S A BIG MISTAKE FOR PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE SOME OF JOE BIDEN'S POLICIES, DON'T THINK HE'S DONE THE RIGHT THINGS, TO SIT THIS ONE OUT, AND I'LL ADD TO IT YOU'VE GOT A MENTOR IN THE BOOK, SOMEBODY WHO WAS IN MY CLASS AT COLLEGE, CORNEL WEST AND HE'S RUNNING TO PRESIDENT, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO HIM?

>> YEAH.

WOW, MAN, THE BOOK IS IN SO MANY WAYS AN ARGUMENT WITH A MAN WHO MADE ME WHO I AM IN SO MANY WAYS RIGHT, SO I'M NOT -- IT'S NOT A PATRICIDAL TEXT BUT IT'S CERTAINLY ME ENGAGING CORNELL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE HE ENDS AND WHERE I BEGIN BECAUSE HE'S BEEN SO INFLUENTIAL INTELLECTUALLY IN MY LIFE.

I THINK IN THIS MOMENT I -- I GO BACK TO A LESSON THAT I LEARNED AFTER I WROTE "DEMOCRACY IN BLACK" AND I WENT BACK AND REREAD BALDWIN'S LETTER TO JIMMY CARTER.

YOU KNOW, BALDWIN WAS ANGRY WITH CARTER ALONG WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER BLACK LEADERS AND BLACK MINISTERS IN 1978 AND '79.

CARTER'S AUSTERITY POLICIES HAD IMPACTED URBAN COMMUNITIES, DISPROPORTIONATELY, BLACK COMMUNITIES DISPROPORTION ATLEY.

BALDWIN SAYS WE VOTE IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION NOT NECESSARILY TO CHANGE SOME THINGS BUT TO BUY OURSELVES SOME TIMES BECAUSE HE KNEW REAGAN WAS.

HE KNEW WHO REAGAN WAS AS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, AND READING THAT MADE ME REALIZE THAT SOMETIMES, WALTER, WE HAVE TO VOTE TO BUY OURSELVES SOME TIME.

IF WE LET THE FASCISTS IN, DEMOCRACY IS OVER.

IT'S A WRAP.

I DON'T THINK -- WE'RE NOT A YOUNG SCRAPPING REPUBLIC ANYMORE.

250 YEARS COME 2026, I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN SURVIVE A TRUMP PUNCH TO THE CHIN, YOU KNOW.

THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE COUNTRY ARE ALREADY CRACKED, AND SO I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE FOR SOME PEOPLE TO THINK THAT THEY CAN -- THAT THEY CANNOT VOTE IN THE NATIONAL ELECTION, BUT I DO UNDERSTAND THOUGH THAT THE -- THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM THAT WE FACE AND IN THE POLITICS IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

WE HAVE TO BE CRITICAL AS WE TRY TO REIMAGINE A WAY FOR OUR POLITICS.

THIS IS A MIRROR REFLECT OF THE AGE OF REAGAN, IT'S A COMPONENT OF THAT MOMENT, AND IF THAT MOMENT IS COLLAPSING, THEN THE REMNANTS CONFUSE US, IT SEEMS TO ME, BUT AS I SAY TO MY FRIEND CORNEL WEST, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS THE RIGHT DECISION TO MAKE RIGHT?

I THINK WE NEED TO DO SOME OTHER KIND OF WORK IN ORGANIZING ORDINARY EVERYDAY PEOPLE TO BE THE LEADERS.

WE DON'T WANT THEM TO DROP DROP THE HOSE AND FOLLOW YOU.

WE WANT THEM TO BE THE LEADERS THEY ARE LOOKING FOR.

>> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, WALTER.