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Indiana Lawmakers from the statehouse to your house.

Indiana's 1816 constitution was the first in the country to call for a state funded public school system proclaiming that, quote, knowledge and learning, generally diffused throughout a community, are essential to the preservation of a free government.

In 1851, Indiana's new constitution set the stage for the appointment of a state Superintendent of Education and a state board of education.

For much of the 19th century, though, the promise of a free education for all Hoosier youth went largely unfulfilled thanks to a lack of funding, a shortage of competent teachers, and opposition to a secular, tax funded school system.

Not until 1897 did the General Assembly pass a law mandating all children between the ages of eight and 14 attend class for at least 12 consecutive weeks each school year.

Indiana's public schools experienced significant growth in the 20th century through standardized instruction and teacher training, and by the end of the century, schools were subject to longer academic calendars, performance incentives, student testing, and other forms of oversight.

In 2001, Indiana became the 37th state in the nation to embrace charter schools.

And while charter schools are technically public schools, they are independently operated, meaning they control their own curriculum, staffing, and budget.

Then came private school vouchers.

In 2011, year one of the initiative vouchers were made available to some 4000 needy students who had attended underperforming public schools.

Since then, lawmakers have repeatedly loosened eligibility requirements.

Last year, more than 70,000 students got public money to attend private schools.

And this session, lawmakers are poised to eliminate the last remaining income limits, solidifying Indiana's standing as a champion of school choice.

A generation ago, if we devoted an installment of Indiana lawmakers to K-Through-12 education, the discussion pretty much started and ended with traditional public schools.

Now, the same subject comes with an asterisk and a request for clarification.

Are you talking about traditional public schools or charter schools?

That is, public schools that operate independently, or private schools that provide instruction to students bearing taxpayer funded vouchers?

Our answer to that multiple choice question is yes.

I am pleased to welcome Republican Representative Bob Behning of Indianapolis.

Chairman of the House Education Committee, Democratic Representative Vernon Smith of Gary, the ranking minority member of that committee.

Robert Taylor, executive director of the Indiana Association of Public School Superintendents.

And Scott Bess, a member of the Indiana State Board of Education and founding president of the Indiana Charter Innovation Center, an association devoted to the state's charter schools.

Thank you all for for being here.

No subject more important, arguably, than than education.

You know, we our education system has been something of a work in progress, I think, ever since we joined the union in 1816 and probably before that.

Vernon Smith tell us why you don't think we're headed in the right direction.

I think we're on a path to destroy public education.

primarily, I would begin with, the fact that we did all of this comparison to other countries to show that our education in this country was broken, and that was not the case.

So we were comparing apples to oranges and not apples to apples.

I think the funding, that we are providing, and we've taken the pie and we divide it into smaller and smaller pieces.

When you look at effective education, research, it doesn't mention anything among the calls dealing with money, but all of them means that you got to have money to be able to, to, make sure those qualities are in play, in your schools.

I think that, that the focus on testing, rather than taking a holistic approach, is detrimental to, to public schools.

I think the attack of the media, as well as the legislature on public education, has caused a shortage of teachers.

And I feel and so we have persons in our schools who, have not gone to, institutions of higher learning that learn what they really need to know to meet the needs of the child and to make sure that they're effective in their classrooms.

You mentioned accountability, testing some of these things, the two big things that have sort of happened in the past quarter century, certainly about, what, 23 years ago we had the emergence of charter schools.

And then about 12 or so years ago, we had our first experimentation with vouchers.

I'm guessing those are the two things that kind of really stick in your craw, I'm guessing.

so let's go to the architect of the of the vouchers.

That was a small, modest experiment back in 2011.

You are the architect of that.

And now the state is poised to, buy all.

In all likelihood, will embrace universal vouchers.

Is it?

Did you accomplish what you set out to do, back in 2011?

yes, I mean, I my focus has always been trying to actually move academic performance to what's best for kids.

you know, we live in an economy today where we have a number of choices and we can't, you know, in higher ed, for instance, we have a number of institutions of higher ed to think that everybody has to go even on a graduation rate, you everybody has to go to IU.

Doesn't make sense.

so I think when you look at, the, the variety and options we have in choice today, I think it actually helps drive success.

And our data is actually pretty significant.

That shows charter schools generally outperform almost almost all the time, outperform the charter.

The public school that they're embedded in.

Voucher students are actually outperforming, our, traditional public school students in general.

So yeah, we're moving the envelope.

I would I would agree with Representative Smith that we're not where we need to be yet.

I mean, I think one thing we need to at least shout out today is, the nape scores.

I mean, you look at where Indiana has moved in our reading.

We we are sixth in the nation in both.

And I was just came out, last month, I think.

And and I think we need a shout out to, you know, the educators and the commitment to that.

And, so I think we're moving the right directions.

I would challenge my way in this morning, I was listening to news and, Reverend Smith and we don't use internet, don't want to use international comparisons.

But I heard that, you know, we're 40th in the world in terms of education, in terms of where we rank, I know that we're five and a half years behind Singapore, for instance, in terms our 15 year old math proficiency.

But we spend more money than any other country in the world, according to the media report I heard this morning.

But I do think we're making a lot of we're making progress.

Incremental.

Not as fast as I think none of us would like to see it move.

Let's go to the we talked about the, the, vouchers.

Let's talk about the charter schools.

And that's where you come into this, Scott best, So generally I'm optimistic.

and again, it's one of those things where you almost have to say we you have to be optimistic in order to actually make real change.

Right.

And so if you look at the charter school sector, we're nearing 25 years old.

So we're still, I would say, in our teenage years, in essence, right.

We're we're, maturing.

We've had schools now that have been around for 20 years, 25 years, and you're starting to see the results of those schools.

What we're looking for in the next 25 years is, first of all, continued growth.

we want to see it additional parent choice in areas of the state where we don't have it today.

But there's a reason that our organization is called the Indiana Charter Innovation Center.

We want to see the sector push the boundaries more.

Take advantage of, for example, the new diploma that we've got out there.

We want to really lead in that, to take advantage of the CSAs and the ESAs and really lead the sector, not just for charter schools, but for the education sector.

overall.

so again, I was a, I was a school board member for 16 years in the community where I live.

And so I understand what drove the education there.

There were things that were tried and then pulled back because, you know, the community feedback or whatever.

I think the charter sector has a way to say we can actually do it, prove that it works, and then that can spread elsewhere.

So if we have vouchers newly arrived on the scene, I'll say 12 years, newly arrived 20 years in my my personal body clock, that's that's yesterday so relatively newly arrived.

And yet you look at the budgetary pie.

Yeah.

It goes up a little bit, you know, 2% here, 2% there, but it's still the pie.

But the slices now, which all used to go to public schools, Robert Taylor don't now you have to share with, private schools that accept vouchers and you have to share increasingly.

And this session, after this session is done, maybe even more so with schools.

Are you on the defensive?

Education has to be an evolving and, applicable institution.

everyone here in this room today is here because of their education.

choice in Indiana is way before, Representative Benning or any of the other legislators decided choice.

We've had choice for a long time.

It's been more of a faith based option, but we've had school choice in Indy, and a school choice in Indiana is a reality.

I will point out that.

Over the differences, of course, it's funded.

It's funded now.

But about 92% of our parents in the state of Indiana choose public schools, but public schools and, and and charter schools and, faith based, you know, non non traditional public, have to coexist.

And I think they'd have to coexist because it's in what's the best interest for our students, in our families?

in public education where as we talk to our superintendents, and we're very fortunate in Indiana to have 293 outstanding educational leaders.

We talk about decisions that are based solely on what's best for the student.

If you base your decision on what's best for the student, you're never going to make a wrong decision.

You're going to make some unpopular decisions.

But choice in Indiana has to be not seen as competitive and combative, and we will get there at some point.

And funding is that big.

As long as the dollars are the, the, coin of the realm that makes it kind of difficult.

We're looking at is, is how do we ensure our future is well-educated and our future our meaning.

Our children are well-educated, well-informed, and productive.

Well, Vernon Smith, let's stipulate that charters are not going to go away and that vouchers are not going to go away.

we have the largest voucher program in the country, although I see that, Tennessee, I just read this morning is trying to, get to universal before Indiana.

So do something about that, I guess if those are, if we'll acknowledge that they're here to stay, what is the best course forward I mean, I'm no, you're not you're not waving a white flag of surrender.

Let me indicate that life is full of choices.

You have a choice of whether you're going to go to school or not, going to go to school.

You have a choice.

If you are going to be a parent, that you're going to support the child's education, or are you going to be part of the problem?

Life is full of choices.

I think there were some steps that could have been done.

I believe in choices, but I think choices have to be made on informed decisions.

Informed information.

And I think that many of our parents are not informed enough, and they're making choices based on a new building based on previously, the fact that some kind of reward has been given to them if they move their child to a charter school situation.

I think there were some steps we could have done prior to creating charter schools or going with the vouchers.

We had a strict rule that a child had to go to school within their geographical boundaries.

We could given them choice to go to any traditional school, us to move around.

I think the whole choice movement has been, based on the premise that that, that schools, well, that the child where they had poor performing students would have a choice to go somewhere else.

But as as I've seen my my 35 years in the legislature, it's like, if I can get my foot in the door, I can get the concept to have a level of approval.

Then we'll keep pushing and pushing and pushing until we get where we really want to go.

And so now we have choice being offered to people who make a quarter of $1 million and providing vouchers, whether don't.

It's been dollars that would have been for the traditional public schools and even the charter schools.

But now it's going to the to the private sector.

Where does it go?

What does this look?

We talked about?

Robert Taylor, talked about it being a evolving system.

That makes sense.

We've certainly seen schools evolve, but one thing you've said you and supporters of vouchers or scholarships, as you I'll stipulate, you like to call them scholarships, we'll say, is that only initially, you know, a very small percentage of Hoosier students are affected by this.

It's only 5%, 3%, 5%, 10%.

But I mean, in your world, you'd like it to be 50, 60, 70%.

What is Nirvana?

Hundred percent by 100.

What is Nirvana I want?

Well, I, I think Nirvana is when every kid is moving, every parent is satisfied that the school is meeting their child's needs and that kids are actually moving forward academically.

That's the nirvana I'm not really I'm not saying it has to be a choice school.

It doesn't have to be a charter school.

That Trenton Public School, I mean, actually the largest choice, the parents are making right now are traditional public school to traditional public school.

And they're moving across districts because they're trying to find the best district or best school that meets their needs.

I think that's nirvana.

It is to make sure that kids are getting what they need.

And as I said, band inter-district transfers.

Is that your bill?

No, no no okay.

Obviously not.

There are 70 provisions in your deregulation.

I mean, there have.

Actually been I made it all the transfer language because the transfer, is antiquated today.

but no, I think the nirvana is actually making sure kids get what they need.

And, moving academically, moving forward.

Well, you know.

Sure.

Go ahead.

I would just add to that, I think the the future of education in Indiana, in the choice realm has to be where we continue to strive for equity, both academic achievement, equity and fiscal equity.

And with equity comes accountability.

So as we're moving towards that, and we've seen legislation that has been put forth to to establish those levels of accountability we've had for, for century, accountability in public education sector.

We see accountability now in the charter sector.

I think that has to be a constant, lens by which we look through moving our educational system forward.

Are we having equitable opportunity, equitable funding, and is there accountability for that as a taxpayer?

And we'll talk about property taxes, because that's high on our legislative year.

every taxpayer wants to ensure there's accountability for their tax dollar.

Let's let's let me ask that quickly.

I don't want to get bogged down here, but how about that notion if the dollars follow the student, which is what we often say, why shouldn't accountability and transparency and guidelines that govern everything else?

If the money's coming from public tell, why shouldn't?

Well, I will tell you in terms of accountability.

I think the one thing makes Indiana's school choice environment unique is that even our nonpublic schools are required to take the same state assessment and held accountable the same level of accountability in terms of fiscal accountability.

Remember, the voucher actually goes to the parents.

So the fiscal accountability actually relies on the parent, not on the school, much like we do with, when we have higher ed, if you receive a scholarship from, 21st century, the 21st century, that scholarship goes to the kid.

It doesn't go to the institution.

We don't on it our institutions that accept it because they're not the ones that are responsible for it is actually the individuals.

So, we are holding our charter schools, our traditional public schools, all of them fiscally accountable.

The fiscal accountability when it comes to choice is really the parent, because they're making the choice to make that investment.

And one of you talked about equity.

So and I know that Scott Best would say that the problem for his organization in the charter schools, they haven't been able to derive the same kind of property tax benefit that public schools have.

legislation this year would change that.

That's a that is changes the landscape for you.

Why it does I mean, for a long time since the inception of charter schools, they haven't had access to local property tax dollars.

the state funding has been equal, which has been terrific.

As I talked to my counterparts across the nation, they're envious of that.

But then if you look at the gap from what the total funding at a traditional pub would get versus what a charter school would get, it averages around $3,600 per student across the state, and in some places, like Indianapolis, it's nearing $8,000.

A student.

Is the gap what the legislature did in 2023, which we greatly appreciated, was putting some things in place to keep the gap from growing.

But our effort this year is to say, look, if a parent is paying property taxes either directly or through their, through their rent, but their child is going to a charter school, they need to be able to have the the access to those funds.

And that really is what we're trying to do with Senate Bill 518 is to say, look, let's at least share those local operational dollars that are coming in and let that money follow the child.

And then as new capital dollars are created, then let's also talk about sharing that that is the biggest impediment to charter.

Schools new capital dollars being referendum.

That's right.

All right.

What's wrong with that theory?

For two points I like to make.

The first one is I don't think that in this state we are treating our students equally, but we certainly not median equity, which he indicated was so important.

Equity means that where there's a need, we going to provide the money that the children need to be able to meet that need.

We don't have equity.

Which is the old formula.

Right.

And you have English as a second language.

Students who you get.

Because you don't have equity in the state.

And I don't think anybody's really concerned about it.

The second point I wanted to make is that when we created charter schools and I was here, I voted against it.

Initially, the charter schools said that they can do it cheaper.

We went to virtual education.

They said the same thing.

We can do cheaper.

Now we have funding charter schools, I think at 90% in that charter schools.

But virtual schools, 85%.

And they said they could do it at half and they keep asking for more.

The charter schools weren't supposed to get any of the property taxes, so now they want it.

They said they could do it with the amount of money they were getting.

But, you know, I don't think that this whole movement is about meeting the needs of children in need at all.

It's about funneling dollars to into private sectors.

And I believe that if end, I understand my my colleague next to me disagrees with me, but I, I believe emphatically it's about money and if it wasn't about money, if you had a child that enrolled in a charter school and they left and went to back to the Jackson School, the money ought to follow.

It is not following them.

And I'm just make this point.

This point is with the technology we have available for us today.

We could, as a child move month by month.

We can we could allocate those moneys to the school corporation.

I understand they say they have to plan.

But the bottom line is, if we really are trying to meet the needs of the children, then the money ought follow the children, which was the premise for charter schools and vouchers in the first place.

Caroline, I know you talked about everything being equitable, and you don't see these competitors as a threat necessarily.

And yet public schools that you represent, superintendents of public schools are going to get more than $1 billion by legislative, services Agency estimates, less in the coming biennium aren't you worried about that?

We are concerned, as Smith said, finance has come down to a key component, whether it's funding of teachers or whether it's capital projects, ensuring you have safe buildings and, and, you know, programing that's relevant to what students need, funding is critical.

So that's an ongoing discussion that we have, the in the state of Indiana, we have to continually look at how do we fund education to that level that's appropriate to the need of the student, not necessarily to the need of the program or the the genre of school.

But how do we fund that to the need of the student?

the, the exchanging of property tax?

It has, some, some significant impact and influence.

and so we continue to work with our legislators to not only talk about what those, key, controversial kind of reductions might be, but we also talk with them on the need to continue to fund things that that they agree to.

We've increased teacher salaries.

we have legislative, input into percentages of state dollars that have to go towards recognizing teachers with, with kind of a.

Push to raise the minimum from 40 to.

40.

So as long as those are continuing to be items of a focus, both in legislative side and in the voucher charter side, or, excuse me, scholarship, charter side, I so hard to keep track of which.

Is what we have to do is to continue to work together.

We talked to initially this is an evolving process.

So yes, we and public education are quite concerned.

But how will this impact us?

But I go back to my time as a superintendent.

in oh eight, where there was a significant impact with, financial influences that came in to, to schools.

So it's it's an ongoing.

Yeah.

And there is a bill that this session that would essentially dissolve districts, public school districts where, at least 50% of eligible students are actually not attending their schools, but going elsewhere, that happens to be Gary would be in the gun sights that would be in Indianapolis public schools and three others that probably aren't as prominent.

Now you have a version, a bill that wouldn't do that.

You'd pilot something similar just with, operations, consolidate operations and transportation and sort of a baby step.

the other one is a is a bridge too far?

The first one.

But the second one that we think is necessary.

House Bill 1501 the concept is transportation authority and building authority.

And frankly, So everybody in Marion County, for instance, just I don't want to step on what you're saying would have would share transportation and there'd be, well, central.

Repository in the, in the if the bill moved and I'm not have any more right committee meetings.

But if the bill move the concept is not done are gone.

But if no concept is ever done right, right.

But if you think about, there was a trigger in there that was put in there similar to what was in 1136.

But the reality is, the goal of really asking the department to do some research.

And it was this was something we asked the department last year to come together with some different ideas is to save money, to provide greater, transportation and facilities, access to, students.

And my hope is in terms and I know that I've had, discussions with secretary general, there's several school superintendents outside of Marion County who have interest, for instance, in transportation authority, because if you think about Marion County has 11 school districts, we have, ten of them that are providing transportation.

And I know as, as as we drive across the community, you see those school busses crossing, the district lines periodically.

And could we save money, provide more services, and, actually provide more money for teachers?

In the end, if we start looking more logistically at how we could be more our.

Our school bill is about to ring.

Believe it or not, I've got about one tenth of what I wanted to talk about accomplished.

Vernon's final word.

Are you more worried about money and fiscal policy, or the encroachment of things such as, policies that would undo Di training or or the teaching?

may not happen in this session, but the teaching of, any I think there's an actual list of things that would be off subject.

Are you more worried about money or policy?

Let me just indicate I'm concerned about the student.

Okay.

And that involves policy and money.

but, you know, if we were really concerned about meeting the needs of children, if I focus on children, then what we would do.

You know, for every good intention, there may be some bad consequences that come with it.

And we've had some bad consequences.

I use Jerry as example.

We have, I think, close to ten charters in Gary.

we have students who are using vouchers pretty much what we've got left.

And traditional public schools is, is skim milk and not not the cream.

The cream is moved elsewhere.

And we still are not to meet those needs of those children.

We're not putting any more money in there.

And as I said, if you look at the quality of effective schools, what happens is you need you do need money and with the best intentions, you still get to have money.

All right, guys, come back to money eventually.

All right.

We do have to leave it there.

Unfortunately, we may have to have a second show, because I can see this is, We're not we're barely scratching the surface.

Thank you all again.

My guests have been Republican Representative Bob Behning of Indianapolis.

Democratic Representative Vernon Smith of Gary, Robert Taylor of the Indiana Association of Public School Superintendents, and Scott Bess of the Indiana Charter Innovation Center.

And time now for our weekly visit with Indiana lawmakers analyst Ed Feigenbaum, publisher of the newsletter Indiana Legislative Insight and its sister publication, Indiana Education Insight, both part of Hanna News Service.

And what surprised you, if anything, about the the roundtable?

I think not only the roundtable, but but maybe even just the discussion in the General Assembly this year.

And that's the public school advocates are starting to come around to the idea that, hey, charters and all the other questions about money, leaving the public schools and going to other educational entities is going to happen.

And let's get on the train and let's just make it as painless as possible.

A genie in the bottle, so to speak.

And it's already.

And what what's interesting, too, is if you look at who you had on the panel and the members of the House Education Committee in general, you've got legislators who are among the most senior in the General Assembly.

People have been around for a very long time.

They've got a real good sense of the institutional history, and they understand the history of all of these educational issues and how they've evolved.

You know, we touched on it briefly, but the one bill that early in the session seemed to have blood pressures spiking on the part of critics was this notion of dissolving these five districts and theoretically more in the future, that didn't have a sufficient number of students enrolled in their own district or elsewhere.

IPS would have been hit.

Gary, What happened?

Well, I think that's a lot like what you're seeing at the federal level.

You know, the president makes a big declaration and then kind of uses that as a negotiating point.

I think that's what you saw here as well.

You had Representative Tasca coming with that bill.

I think he was just trying to force the different parties to the negotiating table and make sure that the public schools consider the charters in some of these referendum decisions.

All right.

We have to leave it there.

Ed, as always, appreciate your insight.

Thank you.

John.

It said that we should quit worrying about our health because it'll go away soon enough.

That may be.

But how do we afford to maintain it in the meantime?

Rising medical costs on the next Indiana lawmakers.

Until next week, take care.

Indiana Lawmakers is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.

Additional support is provided by the Indy Chamber, working to unite business and community to maintain a strong economy and quality of life.