- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- Education in Memphis, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with the Daily Memphian, thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Eric Harris.

He's the president of JESSRAN, Thank you for being here.

- Thank you.

- Along with Terrence Patterson, CEO of Memphis Education Fund.

Thanks for being here again.

- Thanks good to see you.

- Natalie McKinney, who is Executive Director of Whole Child Strategies.

Thanks for being here again.

- Thank you.

- Along with Bill Dries, reporter with the Daily Memphian.

We wanted to talk about education in part, just, we'd been very, very focused on the mayor's race we wrapped up, I should say last week, the last of our interviews with the major candidates.

That was Floyd Bonner, all those are available.

Early voting is still going on as this show airs.

And election day is October 5th.

All of our interviews with the top seven candidates are available at WKNO or Daily Memphian, and you can also go get lots of coverage of the mayor's race as well as the City Council races at Daily Memphian.

And again, election day is October 5, but a few more days of early voting as this show airs.

But we wanted do with school starting, I think also in part with the, what is it, the 10-year anniversary of the end of Memphis Shelby County Schools or the merger/demerger and so on to talk about education.

And I'm gonna start with you, Natalie, just to give a quick snapshot of what Whole Child Strategies does and we'll let each of you do that.

And then we'll start talking deeper and deeper about some of the issues, especially around early childhood education, the third grade reading, wraparound strategies, all that.

But talk about Whole Child Strategies.

- Whole Child Strategies is place-based, neighborhood-based organization, that's designed to look at the external barriers to children arriving to school every day, engaged and ready to learn.

So we looked at the data, we looked at the research, and 60% of the change in test scores are due to out of school factors.

So when you talk about community, you talk about family, and then you talk about the child.

You have to have a whole community, so you can have a whole family and then you can have a whole child.

So we engage those external stakeholders, including schools and school leaders, parents, children, residents, place, other community-based organizations, faith-based entities and business leaders to talk about what are the assets, what are the needs, align those things, figure out the gaps, prioritize them, and then let's get to the root causes.

- Alright, let me bring in Terence, we'll go through all those issues and more.

But Terence, talk about what Memphis Education Fund does.

- Memphis Education Fund, we are an investor, we're an advocacy partner and we're also a convener.

I mean, it is our focus to make sure that we can improve education outcomes for K12 students that are attending public schools in Memphis and Shelby County.

So we do that with partnership, we do that with partners that are both national and local.

And it's our hope that with that partnership and with focused investment, we can move the needle on behalf of kids.

- And again, last but not least, Eric Harris.

Talk about JESSRAN.

- Thank you.

JESSRAN was something that was founded out of a long career in public and private education that I had.

Trying to figure out why is it that it seems as though the same kids are not performing, they don't do well on the assessment that's given.

So when you put together all the poverty statistics here in Memphis, which about 37% of our kids in the city of Memphis live below poverty, that's below five.

Also with the neuroscience, with the cognitive development, with the child psychology, you put all those things together and the answer becomes clear that we start them in school too late.

So we have a pilot project where we started with children, giving them a pre-K style education at the age of two, and it's been absolutely phenomenal.

Why two, because two is the age where their brain just sort of wakes up, that two year old at the age of four, if they live in poverty, they're gonna be about two years behind a kid who doesn't.

So you put them in pre-K at that age, and they go in and they learn some things but their brain's capacity is not quite ready to take on what it is that it needs to take on.

So we start them earlier, we help them to develop, we also support the parents with a lot of wraparound, because most two year old parents are young parents and they don't know how to do it.

I'm 50, I don't know how to do it.

So, and that's what we do, and it's been a very, very good program for us.

- Ytalk about, and, and you as well terms, but just the programs you do, the wraparound services.

It is both, I think it's impressive, I think it's the kinds of things we've been in this political season where candidates have been coming on talking about interventions and youth interventions and lots of conversation about crime, obviously with the candidates.

And it's the kind of things that you all do and try to do that they seem to be pointing to.

It also and you've been on the show before, and we've talked about some of this, Natalie, it also seems, and for lack of a better word, daunting or, and exhausting, because it is just, it is not just, hey, sit down at your desk and let's teach you to read, it's that, - Right?

- And that's hard enough, but it's all these other issues.

- Right, so one of the things I want to make sure we draw a distinction for the work that we're doing.

I'm not, it's not necessarily wraparound.

What we're trying to do is we're trying to get to the systemic failures and come up with viable and sustainable solutions that are built by those who are impacted.

So for example, during the pandemic, our constituency said we need access to fresh food, that's one of the things we need.

So we were able to work with MATA and come up with a plan to get in a food desert, they live in a food desert, and we all know that children need nutrition in order to again, for their brains to stimulate and to grow.

And it needs to be fresh, they said, we, we took 'em to the farmer's market, we take 'em to the farmer's market every Saturday, and they decided they wanted to go to Walmart when the farmer's market closed so they continue to get basic needs.

So it's not about just wrapping around, that's triage for me.

What we need to do is to get to the systemic issues as to why we have to wrap around.

And so we need to get our residents to politically engage on moving systems and reallocating our public resources to the right place and space.

- Let me bring in Bill.

- Eric, the concept of a two-year-old going to pre-K is that happening other places?

- No, it's not.

Some places have advertised it, but there's no one that I've seen nationwide that does it the way that we do it.

We literally built a curriculum based on how they developed.

Most curriculum will tell you, hey, have this kid to write the letter A, well, a two year old doesn't have the motor skills to write the letter A, you have to develop those.

So part of our curriculum will be developing those skills and then teaching them to write the letter A.

So we're potty training but we're also working with them on things.

For example, we don't just have this rope memorization of their ABCs, we know the ABCs, but we also know each sound that those letters represent.

And this year's three year olds, the second year with this group, we're blending those sounds and learning how to read on a kindergarten-based curriculum with them at three.

- So it sounds like it's seeding the ground for the alphabet when they're four or or three years old that it's seeding the ground for that because you feel like these children genuinely are not gonna get the ramp that they need to four years old, which is a ramp to everything else, right?

- Exactly, exactly, as I said, a kid impoverished is about at the age of two, they're about six months behind a kid who's not at the age of four that grows to two years.

So if we can catch them at the age of two, when they're just a little bit behind, implement some strategies then we get them ahead of those other children.

So by the time they're four, they're actually ready for much more than just kindergarten.

- And Bill, that's so important because when you look at the data, one out of four or five of our students at the third grade level is reading at grade level or is doing math on a proficiency level.

forty percent of our students are approaching proficiency.

And so to Eric's point, if we can start earlier and make sure we've got great adults that are supporting our students, it'll only help us in the long run.

- And that is so awesome, 'cause research shows if that kid is successful as a kindergarten student, they will be successful as a third grade student.

And if that third grader is successful, then we know that they are destined for college and career and graduating high school.

So yeah, all of this is connected.

- Natalie, from what you just said, you're job, your role in this is to make sure that the environment remains stable after the child has become stable, has a good runway to learn.

You obviously don't want to see the community around them, the surroundings around them continue to be a challenge for them and for their families.

- Correct, that's correct.

So I think all of these have to happen in tandem.

And in order for us to sustain those, the wonderful work that you're doing, they have to, we can't send them back into the environments that traumatize them and they can't live in those environments.

So I think these, we have to think about this more holistically.

Yes, there are things we need to do in preparation while they're not in school, but there's also thing, and when they get in school to make sure that they're, they're being engaged and able to capture the learning that they're being exposed to.

But more importantly, that we can continue that progression without the trauma that they are being exposed to when they go back home.

- Right?

- Yeah.

- Because there is a tendency to think, okay, this child is attending pre-K when he or she is two years old, job done.

- Right.

- Not job done.

- Not job done at all.

You have to take into account, you know, I think about, I don't know anyone else's background, but I think about mine, I think about, I grew up solidly middle class.

I didn't hear gunshots.

I lived in a nice neighborhood in the city, I went home and I had a meal.

I knew where I was going to sleep.

I knew where I was gonna get the next meal.

And I had parents who were supportive, not to say that because you're poor, you aren't supportive, but your options are limited when I'm working two or three shifts or I'm working third shift.

So we have to be cognizant of our local context and we have to begin to think about, excuse me.

We have to begin to think about what are the systems at play that are not aligned that we need to align to ensure that we are supporting the education of our children.

- Terence, schools have had to do more.

Teachers have had to do more in line with what Natalie is saying.

But are there limits on what we can expect schools and teachers to do?

- Oh, that's a tough question.

I mean, yes, but we certainly shouldn't lower the expectation.

I mean, I think the challenge is certainly when we ask our teachers to be superheroes, given all of the factors outside of the school building, it is a daunting task.

So we gotta make sure we continue to support teachers, and we've gotta support our system, but we also need to do the work that Natalie is doing, the work that Eric is doing.

So I, the data would suggest, it's a challenge again, when, you know, twenty to twenty-five percent of our students are proficient or above proficiency.

The question is, what more or what else should we be doing?

There is no secret curriculum, there is no magic bullet.

I think we've gotta make sure we are finding great teachers and we're also supporting great teachers and we're using innovative programs like Man Up, for example, Dr. Patrick Washington, where he's looking in the community and he's finding African-American men that are already mentors in the community, but they are actually certifying to become teachers.

So programs like that where we can increase the impact of what we know from the data is so vitally important, which is a high quality teacher.

- Right, but because you're working on a school system.

That's the structure you're working on.

And so many times, I mean that's where people tend to put the burden for this.

So I'm just wondering, do we need to change our expectations of what we expect the school systems to do?

And versus what entities outside of the school system need to do?

- Yeah, so to that, I'd say a resounding no.

I think we need to increase the expectation on the school system to provide higher quality educational experiences for our children from 8 AM to 3 or 4 PM.

But we also need to make sure that we are bringing in partners to support that system outside of those hours and supporting our community and having an appreciation for what it means to educate kids that are in poverty.

So I don't think we remove the burden from the school system, we just add supports to the community and to children.

- So I'll push back on that a little bit, okay.

[group laughs] Schools were meant to teach and the teachers and so we have to recognize, we have multiple systems.

We have the healthcare system, we have the justice and safety system, we have community and economic development system, we have an arts and culture system, and we have the education system.

I think that what we have to remind ourselves, 'cause otherwise it's a cop out on these other systems doing the work they're supposed to do, is that we put too much burden on education to do the things they don't have the experience, expertise, or the resources to do.

So I get what you're saying about bringing in partners.

Those partners need to be those other systems and not so much organizations like ours.

'Cause I'll tell you, I don't know about anybody else, but when I entered this work seven years ago, I said, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be here after 10 years.

Well we had an intervening pandemic no one could anticipate.

- Those two years don't count.

- They don't count.

Right, right, not at all.

So the idea is to equip people and systems to do the work they need to do for our children and our families and not sort of put, use us as band-aids to do what systems are supposed to do.

So that's why I really think we need to be thinking about we got enough data.

We love to talk about data and people are, we have to do this research and do this data.

We have the data we've known it for years.

So now let's do something that is addressing that data that tells us that we have a broken healthcare system.

We have a broken community and economic development system.

Our housing, we have a broken justice and safety system or criminal system.

All of these things need to be transformed.

I'm not talking about reforming them, 'cause all that's doing is just putting in ingredients in a different order as opposed to let's think, let's think out the box, let's think strategically, let's think, set, you talk about expectations.

Let's raise those expectations higher and say to ourselves, we need to transform our system so that they're working in alignment.

- Let me bring in Eric on this.

You were a principal?

- Yes.

- You mentioned, were you a teacher before that or?

- I was a teacher before that.

- And you were in what, Memphis-Shelby County Schools?

- I was in most recently, yeah.

- And you were part of the Achievement School District.

So a whole, you've been in those classrooms and this back to Bill's question and to this conversation about the expectations on teachers, I remember my many, many years and decades ago, my first job out of college as a reporter in a small town of Connecticut going to a school board meeting.

And this is a middle class kind of, you know, school system and people standing up in the crowd, citizens saying, I don't want to increase the spending on schools.

When I went to school, the teacher drove the bus, the teacher was the coach, the teacher taught all the subjects.

This was a while ago, but it wasn't that long ago.

And I do think that some of that sentiment still exists among taxpayers and people who put their kids in schools or choose not to put their kids in public schools, that, whether or not those expectations should be there, that's not what schools should do.

The flip side of that is, I'm curious what you've seen over the course of your time in public education with how teachers have responded to those expectations and more doing more than just reading, writing, and arithmetic.

- Well, I think the teachers have done the best they can.

It's a tough road to hold for them.

I mean, think about it.

If you're typical high school teacher in Memphis-Shelby County Schools, right now, you have 5 or 6 classes of 30 students.

You know, so that's anywhere between 150 and 180 students that you see every single day.

So to ask them to do more than just teach them whatever subject matter you have is quite, you know, phenomenal for them to even do what they're doing.

You have to be that psychologist for them.

You know, you have to be the nutritionist for them.

You have to be the counselor for them, because it's your fault if that child isn't ready to learn, and when the data comes out at the end of the year that you haven't quite been as successful as you want to be, then it's your fault, or at least that's probably what a lot of people around you are saying.

So I think that it is very, very tough on a teacher today.

And I think that most people who are not in it don't really understand just how tough that is.

And a lot of teachers, you have your own things and your own homes, you have your own children that you're dealing with.

And your own mortgage and your MLGW bill and things like that.

So it's a lot harder for you to, after four o'clock, put in the hours that you need to put in to prepare yourself for all those things that you have to deal with.

So my hat's off to teachers.

- Yeah, let me go back, I mean, as long as we've, to you, Terence, as long as I, we've been doing the show, which is 13 years now, it was even before that.

But we've done shows on education, the merger, the de merger, we've talked about initiatives like Memphis Teacher Residency, Teach for America, coming down, I was thinking when we're getting ready for the show Race to the Top, wasn't that the Obama program?

Is that right?

Or was that the Bush?

- 2009, 2010.

- 2009, 2010, and Memphis has been this sort of ground zero of education reform.

And I say that word with in front of Natalie and that's fine.

- Education transformation.

- Transformation, reform, but how is that, you haven't been in it that whole time, but you've been very involved with it for many years now.

How has the focus changed?

'Cause as I remember it, maybe this was just my perception, or bias, the initial, all the reform transformation change that was happening was all about academics, underperforming schools, underperforming teachers, not enough kids going to college, not enough kids graduating, but now we're sitting here talking about not just wraparound services, but comprehensive services, all the bringing in partners and stuff.

Is that changed for you all as well at Memphis Education Fund?

Or was that always the case and I just didn't realize it.

- No, no, it is, it has been a significant shift over the last decade or two.

I mean, I think there was the siloed approach prior, and now we do have more partners at the table, we do have more advisory committees.

We do have more transparency when we talk about how we're getting to higher performance and how we're supporting teachers.

So the focus and the mission is the same.

I mean, we still have the North Star of making sure that every single one of our students is proficient, not just for proficiency sake, but so that they can be a productive, a successful, a happy, engaging citizen into the 21st and 22nd century.

So that still exists, but we do have more supports around the table.

And I think the community has always cared to Natalie's point, families and parents have always cared, now there's just more opportunities to engage into the process.

- Yeah.

About five minutes left, I'll bring Bill back in.

- What does growth count enough?

Does growth get enough credit when you're working with students versus here's the bar that you need to be at.

Because to Eric's point when this whole discussion started and the Achievement School District came along, and one of the things at the beginning, I don't think it wound up that way, but at the beginning it was, well, yes, this school is still below where we want it to be, but we have seen this much growth in it and that significant growth.

So, have we lost the emphasis on growth, do you think, in pursuit of the standard after so many years of not being at the bar?

- I think that the problem with growth is that you have something, you have a slate, you have a foundation.

You improve it a little bit, then you've shown growth.

You know, but as you were just saying, that doesn't necessarily mean that you've met the standard, it doesn't necessarily mean that you've reached a level of independence, of lifelong learning, of all these other things.

And I may get in trouble for saying this because I am a former district employee and I know growth is something that, you know, a lot of people hang their hat on, but it's really not good enough.

That's why I do what I do in that, okay, if we are gonna grow, we need to make that foundation differently so that you have more of a capacity to grow.

So instead of just growing from, you know, a point of not really being at the standard, let's grow from a point of being at the standard.

You're here let's grow from there and let's continually grow from there.

So growth is great, but I just don't think that that's enough for our children.

- I don't think we look at it in, I don't think we look at it in a way that helps us approach it in a different way.

So looking, if you look at growth and you come from your standpoint that we need to, we need growth to be better and more consistent, we tend to just focus on that and not focus on what are the things that are impacting growth?

What are the things that we know that can impact growth?

And then let's focus in on those things.

I don't think we're using our data in the most effective and efficient way.

So, I think you've demonstrated looking at data, how do I make someone grow and grow and meet the standards?

Well, let me think about this, let me step back and start at two, as opposed to starting at five or starting at four.

So I think we need to have, we need to have a visionary leader leading the school district to think about those things in an innovative way to approach educating our children, all our children, K-12, from a very different way.

We, you know, you talked about the teacher, the teacher's supposed to do all of these things and people are like, well, that's the way it was.

We are in the 21st century.

- Yes, last time I checked.

- And our children have access to a lot of information we didn't.

And so we need to think about not only what the instruction looks like but the pedagogy, right?

How do we approach this different?

So I'd love to see a leader, visionary leader who has courage and a board to back him, back him or her up to approach this in a different way.

- We could do a whole, we joke before he started, I'm gonna turn minutes 40, 45 seconds left.

Who should be the next school superintendent?

I'm not gonna do that.

[group laughs] But to Bill's question, really, we do have about 45 seconds left here.

A minute left, is, I mean, y'all work with lots of different schools, lots of different organizations, that whole quandary of is growth or improvement, should that be celebrated or is it, even if it doesn't hit the high bar or the bar that we all want the schools or organizations to have, how do you all balance that when you're funding and partnering with them?

- Yeah, we look at both.

So growth is important, 'cause when you're at 25%, you want to see, you know, incremental improvement from 5 to 10, 15%.

But our ultimate bar is the standard, so we want to make sure, again, our standard is every single student is proficient.

So for us, it's a both/and.

We believe we can get there.

It's gonna take innovation, it's gonna take new ways and stronger leadership for us to get there as a community.

- Is it real, I have a couple seconds.

I misread my clock.

Is this a hopeful message?

- Yes, absolutely- - It is, think so.

- Absolutely.

- Okay we'll leave it on that.

Thank you all for being here, thank you for the work you do.

Thank you, Bill, I will note again, we're in the middle of the city election season.

We wrapped up our, if you joined us late, we wrapped up the last of our candidates one-on-one candidate interviews, that was Floyd Bonner last week.

We've interviewed Karen Camper, JW Gibson, Willie Herenton, Michelle McKissack, Van Turner, and Paul Young.

I don't think I missed anyone.

All those are available at wkno.org or on the Daily Memphian site.

You can also get extensive coverage by Sam Hardiman, by Bill Dries, by others on the Daily Memphian staff of the mayor's race, as well as the City Council races, which we haven't been able to do on the show because there's just too many districts and too many candidates, but very important races.

Election day is October 5th, there's a few more days of early voting as this airs.

Go to shelbyvote.org if you need any information where you should vote, everyone should vote.

Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Thanks very much.

See you next week.

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