- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," we're breaking down the potential dismantling of the Department of Education Research budget reductions in the Research Triangle Park and Governor Josh Stein's budget proposal for the state.

How will some of these policies impact communities across North Carolina?

We'll talk about it coming up next.

Stay with us.

- [Narrator] Quality Public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm Kenia Thompson.

President Trump's recent executive order to dismantle the Department of Education is expected to have long lasting implications for public education, higher education funding, and civil rights protection in schools should it happen.

Today, we're exploring the potential impact along with other recent developments.

To help us dissect what's been happening both nationally and locally, let's welcome North Carolina Supreme Court Senior Associate Justice Anita Earls to the show.

Joining her is Dr. Ronda Taylor Bullock.

She is the co-founder and lead curator of WE ARE, which is an organization working to extend anti-racist education.

Welcome.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Of course, so we have a jam-packed show.

There's a lot for us to talk about.

I'd like to first address the executive order from President Trump to dismantle the Department of Education.

Before we dig into that process, let's talk about why the Department of Education was established in the first place.

Justice Earls, I'll start with you.

- Yes, well, I think that's a really important place to start because it was established in 1979.

So people of my age, I actually graduated from high school before there was a Department of Education.

There was HEW, Health and Education and Welfare Department.

But the reason for establishing a separate Department of Education was twofold, at least.

One was to equalize educational opportunities across the country.

Some states were able to have higher funding for their public education systems.

Other states with, let's say lower property values, not as much economic activity in the state, couldn't fund their school systems equally.

And so the Department of Education was a way for the federal government to step in and help equalize the educational opportunities along socioeconomic lines.

But there was also a very important civil rights enforcement component to the reason for creating a separate Department of Education.

The department has a lot of responsibilities for enforcing civil rights laws.

And whether that's making sure that schools are desegregated along the lines of race, but also ensuring that students are not discriminated against.

- Dr. Bullock.

- Right, and also included in that are protections for students with disabilities, right?

So thinking about students with disabilities, students from low income families, like just ensuring there's more an equitable access to education.

So a lot of that protection, you know, is housed within the Department of Education.

- Mm-hmm.

Well, some of the justification for dismantling the department is that it's been an expensive government program.

Now, is that saying that our education has a price limit on that?

Justice Earls, what has been expensive and then what has not been effective in the department, if anything?

- Well, certainly now you're sort of talking about the political debate.

And I think certainly there are those who would say we actually are not investing enough in our young people, that we're not spending enough on education, particularly compared to other industrialized nations.

And that we're falling behind as a result on a world scale.

My sense is that there's actually a very different agenda behind dismantling the Department of Education, and that it's not really, I mean, if you look at the overall federal budget, what we spend on education is a drop in the bucket, if you will.

But I would also emphasize that the Department of Education does a lot more than just funnel federal money to the states.

Whether it's the data that they collect nationwide, the research that they've been able to do on what educational interventions are effective, as well as sort of technical assistance to school systems.

Again, whether it's how to help serve the needs of special needs students or teacher training that's effective, there's so much that the department does that's beyond just funneling, as I said, just funneling money.

So I think there's a lot more behind eliminating it than just saving money.

- Yeah.

Dr. Bullock, your work is around anti-racist education.

Share with us a little bit about we are, and then, if you feel as though the Department of Education has served its purpose and role for our Black and brown children.

- Yeah, so, we are is actually an acronym, it stands for working to extend anti-racist education, and so we provide anti-racism training for children, families and educators, and we're working to build liberatory educational spaces, because we believe that is the dream, that is the hope, and that it can be a reality if that was our goal, if our values align with creating these liberatory educational spaces.

And so what we believe is that we haven't invested enough, and going back to looking at the budget, when you compare where we're expending other funds, it is just a drop in the bucket.

And so Black and brown kids, we've made progress in meeting those needs, and I think we've seen so much as it relates to curriculum, having culturally relevant pedagogy, where Black and brown children see themselves in the curriculum, because data show that we perform better when we see ourselves, and so I think we're making progress and I think that scares people who want power and people who do not wanna see Black and brown children be successful.

I think that's part of what some of this pushback on education is undermining part of that pushback.

- So Justice Earl, what long-term impact does a decision like this, if made, what will it have?

- So tremendous impact, even if it's reversed, say four years from now, you've still got that lost four years, if you will, and so when we think, for example, of the deficits that occurred because of the pandemic and the educational disruption when students couldn't come together in schools, that was only a couple of years.

If we have even just four years of an administration that doesn't support the concept of federal support for strong public education systems, we're immediately going to see deficits in abilities of school systems to provide the resources that their students need.

I think it will continue to erode public education in the states, and I just have to say, you know, we've heard a lot of rhetoric around, well, this is necessary to return education to the states, and you sort of have to remember, we created it to begin with because the states weren't able to adequately provide.

And then if you return education to the states, you have to ask the question, well, what is happening with education funding in North Carolina?

- In North Carolina.

So let's talk about higher education, HBCUs in particular.

How would this decision impact our colleges and universities, Dr. Bullock?

- Well, our HBCUs have historically been underfunded, so we gotta start with that, right?

So we've already historically been underfunded and now we wanna continue to cut and take away from what they already have, but it's gonna be detrimental, right?

I mean, you're thinking about educators, HBCUs produce the most Black educators.

- Right?

- And so now, not only is that gonna impact the institution there, it's gonna impact who's in the classroom and how are Black and Brown children able to see themselves if the teachers aren't gonna have access to learning and the funding to support them to get there?

- Yeah, and a lot of college students and former college students are asking the question, "What happens to my student loan debt?"

So if this happens, and we'll talk a little bit about that process of if, but what would happen to our student loans and grants, and would they be transferred to other departments?

Would they still be owed?

What happens?

- Well, I think there's a huge amount of uncertainty, and that's in part because of the way this has happened, which is significantly different than any prior efforts to change federal administrative agencies, but there's a lot of concern about Pell Grants.

There's some talk of, "Oh, well, other agencies will administer them," but no clarity on that.

And then actually, if you look at what the Congressional budget office is saying about the funding for Pell Grants, there's kind of independently a problem that Congress is not appropriating sufficient funds for the Pell Grant program at any rate, and that the reserves in that program are gonna be depleted this year.

- Wow.

- So I think what it means- - What does that mean for students?

- It means there'll be fewer grants available, maybe grants only for the highest needs students, and just less opportunities for people, make it much harder to get the funding that people need to get an education.

- So it's clear to anticipate a decline in- - Right, and people from rural working class families are not gonna have access to college, like that would've been me, you know?

And I think we'll lose a lot of talent.

A lot of people won't have the ability to change their trajectory of their lives because we're cutting off funds from people who really need it.

- Really need it.

So let's talk about the actual feasibility of this happening.

So executive order was signed.

What's supposed to happen next if this were to actually happen?

- Well, the courts do have a role, the federal courts in reviewing whether or not the president had the power to achieve what his executive order purports to achieve, and I'll just say that, historically, when presidents have wanted to reorganize something about federal government, they've always gone to Congress to get a delegation of authority.

So presidents in the past, and the first time this happened was in 1932, but presidents have understood that if they want to change a department that is set up by Congress, either Congress has to do it or they need congressional authority.

And when I looked through all of the different bills that delegated authority to the president to change something about how the administration was organized, it never included the authority to completely eliminate a department.

But the other thing I'll say is that even if a court, and so the court doesn't get to decide the wisdom of whether the department should exist or in what form, but just whether the president had the authority to make that decision, but even if a court decides, federal courts ultimately decide that it was beyond his authority, the way that the department has cut staff and cut budgets is already gonna have a huge impact, so courts have a limited role.

- And that's one place of power, but another power that we rarely name is the power of words.

Just even passing an executive order saying you're gonna cut something or end something has power in it, and so in a lot of ways, some of these policies are coming out, they're fear tactics.

So whether or not he has the power to do it, the power in the mind of what people believe should happen or what's coming is continuing to contribute- - Department of Education.

- To that chaos, right?

And because there's so much uncertainty, people are doing a whole lot of different things.

Right, and there isn't a lot of clarity on how do we move forward, how do we push back?

Or even waiting for challenges to come.

- We've seen the dismantling of DEI, right?

Do you feel like this is an extension of that in a way?

And how is that impacting really?

I mean, is the target really Black and Brown kids?

- I think we have to call a spade a spade.

Because Black and Brown children were educated right?

We gain power, we push back on systems of oppression.

We, you know, stand up and advocate for ourselves, and we just don't allow folks to oppress us, right?

There's some type of resistance.

And when you are talking about white supremacy, we're talking about power and people who want to maintain that power and as we become educated, we're a threat to that power.

And so that's why there's so much of end diversity, end equity, end inclusion.

And when you say the words and not the acronym, how can you stand on saying, we don't value diversity?

We don't value equity.

We don't want everyone included.

That's what you're really saying.

We don't want diversity, we do not want inclusion.

And that doesn't align with the world.

The world is diverse.

You cannot take that away from us, right?

That's, what God created.

- Yeah, yeah, well did you have something you wanted to add?

- Well, I just think that it's clear to me that the attack on public education, that this is not just about, oh, we're gonna transfer the authority to the states.

This really is about a vision of ending public education.

And so what does that mean for parents?

If you have a uniform system of public education, which is what the North Carolina Constitution says our state should provide, then everyone has a right to go to school and has a right to a sound basic education.

But if you no longer have a system of public education, then people are just sort of on their own to find what opportunities might exist.

And it creates huge disparities along socioeconomic lines, around race lines, around differently abled students and what's available to them and what options they have.

So I think that we have understood in the past that if there's not a public education system for everyone, there will definitely be disparities.

- And I just think it's important that when we say not for everyone, the majority of public school students are students of color.

So the race part has to be a part when, when we don't have access, Black and Brown children will lose access to learning.

- And what do those outcomes look like?

- I mean look, education impacts every aspect of our lives, your health outcomes, your life expectancy, your financial health, it impacts everything, whether or not you'll end up in our prison system.

Our children have to learn.

And Black people have always fought for the right to learn.

We have always valued education.

'Literacy for Freedom', that was the theme when we were enslaved.

We knew reading and writing were connected to our liberty, to our humanity.

And we will continue to fight for that as these policies and executive orders are coming out.

- Yeah.

We'll continue to keep an eye on it, right?

Like you said, there's not necessarily a clear next step of what that looks like, but similar to what you said, now, the thought has been planted in our viewers' minds and in the public and the American's mind of potentially doubting the Department of Education and its existence.

So we'll see what happens.

We'll continue to follow it.

I do wanna move on.

There was a, the Trump administration plans to stop providing US funding for Gavi, which is a program that helps purchase vaccinations and shots for children in developing countries.

Now, a lot of folks may say, why does that matter to us here in the us?

Justice Earls, I'd love to pivot that question to you.

- Well, I think that it sends a message across the world that we are not gonna care about the world's children and people will lose lives as a result.

And so there's just an important way in which in the past we have seen ourselves as a leader and try to take responsibility.

So there's just so many ways in which taking those funds away, taking those that kind of access away truly will harm other people and is not going to help us.

- Yeah.

- Generally.

- There's been a lot of controversy around vaccinations, especially around the Covid vaccine.

But I could imagine if those were pulled, people would be in an uproar.

And so I asked the question, is this a precursor to maybe something that they wanna potentially do here?

What are your thoughts around it?

- These are some interesting times.

How are we here where we are reflecting on whether or not we should have vaccinations to protect ourselves, to protect others.

I think that it could be a foreshadowing what's to here.

I mean, we have people now who've been put in positions of power over vaccines who don't believe in vaccines.

And we've seen an uptick in measles outbreak, which we haven't experienced for years.

And so I think it just means that the potential for harm to come is gonna be greater.

And if we don't speak up, if we don't organize, if we don't elect people whose values align with life, liberty, and justice and humanity, we're gonna have people in power who don't have our best interests at site.

And I don't know how to convince people to care about others.

I can't believe that's where we are.

And in thinking about vaccines in other countries, we should care, period.

And then we are always moving around.

People are coming here, people are leaving.

Those diseases can impact anyone, and we should just care about people.

- What power do we have?

What power can we use and exercise?

- Well, and I do see the attack on vaccines as part of this broader sort of anti-science, anti-knowledge theme.

And I think our power is...

This is a moment where you can't be silent.

I think this is a moment where you can't sit back and say, "Well, things will get better or the pendulum will swing."

I think this is a moment where people have to stand up, have backbone, speak.

And I think what people can do is speak to their personal experiences.

And there's just so many ways to get involved.

But the notion that you don't have to be civically engaged, you don't have to worry about voting, you don't have to try to hold your elected officials accountable, that somebody else will do all that, that's not where we are right now as a country.

We need every voice and everyone engaged.

- Speaking in that same healthcare vein and research, here in RTP in North Carolina, they're facing significant budget cuts to research.

We could potentially see huge impact, jobs, economic landscape.

Justice Earls, can you shed light on what are the broader legal implications of federal cuts to scientific research?

- Well, I don't know that there's a legal implication directly, and that is to say, is there some lawsuit that can be filed?

I definitely think that we are gonna see the ripple effects, not only in terms of research that won't be carried out, greater knowledge that won't be gained, but it impacts economic development.

I mean, I think we've seen time and again in big ways and small, that research aids in economic development makes it easier to produce products at a lower cost, raises our standard of living.

And so I think we're gonna see a real struggle on a lot of different fronts, whether it's healthcare, whether it's access to housing, whether it's education that are hindered by the fact that some of the basic research that was being funded is not anymore.

- Yeah.

Dr. Bullock, I read maybe a week or two ago, some schools with medical research programs were having to rescind offers to their students, unfortunately.

Could we see potential impact from research budget being cut here in RTP for our students who are going to school for medical purposes and research?

- Absolutely.

And a lot of people who have studies who have already begun, and they are midway through programs.

Like, we just had a conference over the weekend called the Let's Talk Racism Conference, and we had presenters sharing that they were in phase one of their research project, and it's uncertainty around whether or not they'll get to move into phase two.

So it's already a very present reality and people are preparing for what happens if the funding is cut.

So you have positions, you have student researchers, you have research assistants, you have so many people who need those funds, and we need the studies.

- Yeah.

- Right?

Because the studies are making us better, they're doing great work.

And it's potential for those to no longer exist.

- Could it potentially deter students from wanting to enter into STEM programs?

- Abs, yeah.

- You know.

- It will, especially if you think you're not gonna be funded.

And so you're gonna try to find areas where, if I can't get funding in this topic, I'm gonna try this topic because you just wanna have access to the college space.

And so it may potentially change people's trajectories.

- So let's talk state budget.

Governor Josh Stein has proposed a state budget.

Do we know if there's any, I guess, oversight or protection for these potential budget cuts in research, and protecting our students too, for those opportunities?

- Well, actually I think these topics are really well related.

Because the governor's budget does actually address a lot of what we're talking about.

You have to remember, it's just a proposal.

- Yes.

- The general assembly will come up with this budget.

They ultimately have the authority.

The governor can veto, but the general assembly will be the deciders.

The governor has set out a vision that I think in some ways you could call this an education budget because he has some really important proposals that would fundamentally help fill the gaps.

So that includes everything from preschool, so increasing access to quality childcare, which so many families need and find hard to afford.

Greater pay for early childhood development teachers and professionals.

Then once kids are in school, he's proposing raising, starting teacher pay and incentives to keep quality teachers.

Proposals to provide free breakfast to every public school student.

So important to learning.

And a $4 billion bond to improve facilities across the state.

- Okay.

- Just the physical plan of, you know, making sure all the schools have air conditioning and the technology, you know, you need computers and other forms of technology in our schools.

So a huge investment in our public education system would come through this budget.

- Dr. Bullock, any areas that you think should be, what's the word I'm looking for?

A priority in that budget?

- Yeah, so I've been looking at some of the research from Education Justice Alliance, and one of the things that they talked about was the assets and the benefits that they see happening in education from the funding.

But also thinking about what does it mean to fully fund Leandro?

What does it mean to fully fund our public schools, which have been underfunded historically?

And part of that fully funding, it means investing in more counselors in schools, more social workers.

Investing in the social emotional learning and wellbeing, the health and wellbeing of our students, and how can we put more funding there versus policing kids, right?

What does that look like and how do we put a line item in the budget that supports getting more counselors in schools, more social workers and more people caring for the social emotional wellbeing of our students?

- And I really wanna follow up on that.

Because Leandro does involve the courts.

And in 2022, and this is where people's votes really make a difference.

In 2022, a majority Democratic State Supreme Court said that if the legislature won't adequately fund the schools, public schools, as required under Leandro, that the courts had an obligation to enforce that constitutional right.

And this is a place where the states really matter because there isn't a federal constitutional right to a sound basic education.

- Right.

That's in the state constitution.

But then we had an election, and control of the Supreme Court switched to Republican.

It's now five Republican, two Democrats.

And the court put a stop to that immediately.

We, again heard the case February of last year.

There is still no final opinion.

But the question of whether or not the state has to adequately fund a sound basic education is one that voters should be looking to the courts to enforce their rights and there will be more elections for our courts.

- More elections.

So probably have maybe about 30 seconds left.

I wanted to give you an opportunity to just share We Are's website if folks wanna know what initiatives you're working on.

I think that would be great to share.

- Yes, please visit us at weare-nc.org.

You can follow us on social media as well at weare_org.

And we're doing work and we would love to have more people supporting us, following us and showing up.

- What are two highlights for 2025 that you're gonna be focusing on?

- We are focusing on increasing the black and brown educator pipeline, and we're working on coalition building among parents whose values align with liberty and social equity and liberatory educational spaces.

- Wonderful.

Beautiful.

Well, Dr. Rhonda Taylor Bullock, thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- Justice Anita Earls, thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the hashtag BlackIssuesForm.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum, and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

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