(uplifting music) - Education reform in Indiana is a lot like the state's ongoing effort to maintain and improve its highways.

In both policy arenas, the goal is to get Hoosiers to their desired destinations, literally or figuratively, as quickly, as safely, and as efficiently as possible.

Now sometimes, repairs or tweaks are in order.

You know, new asphalts here, an extra lane or reconfigured interchange there.

Other times, however, circumstances call for entirely new routes, and perhaps even the abandonment of old ones.

Either way, controversy is all but guaranteed.

Hi, I'm Jon Schwantes, and on this week's show we'll offer a crash course on K through 12 education reform.

And be sure to pay attention, there might just be a pop quiz at the end of the show.

"Indiana Lawmakers," from the State House to your house.

(uplifting music) (pensive music) Lawmakers increased base funding for K through 12 education by $1.5 billion, or some 10%, (paper flapping) compared with the proceeding biennium.

They eliminated textbook rental fees, allocated additional money for school security grants, took steps to offer more work-based learning opportunities for high school students and teachers, and dramatically expanded Indiana's controversial private school voucher program, already the largest in the nation.

They also passed laws requiring schools to steer clear of human sexuality until grade four, to alert the parents of students who want to adopt new nicknames or change pronouns, and to establish processes by which parents and community members can seek the removal of supposedly objectionable library materials.

Although many school districts and teachers are still struggling to adjust to all of the measures enacted last year, no one could have, or at least should have, expected much of a lull in the consideration of education related proposals this session.

Responding to what they call a literacy crisis, leaders of the Republican super majorities in the House and Senate, want schools to get serious about holding back the estimated one in five third graders who flunked the statewide I-READ reading test.

Those lawmakers are also looking for ways to combat chronic absenteeism, which has spiked in Indiana, and elsewhere, in the aftermath of the covid pandemic.

Other bills introduced this session would ease some teacher licensing requirements, limit students' cell phone use in the classroom, and authorize public schools to appoint chaplains to counsel students and teachers.

Finally, there's Senate bill 255, which would fundamentally restructure the aforementioned recently expanded school voucher program, reminding us, yet again, that education is a work in progress and that any attempt to grade that progress can produce just one mark, I for Incomplete.

At the top of the show I likened the push to improve Indiana schools to the effort to improve its highways.

I cited a couple of similarities, but here's the biggest.

By definition, neither the state school system, nor its highway system, will ever be, quote, "Done."

For better or for worse, construction is always ahead.

Joining me are three policy makers who are passionate about building a K through 12 education system that gets Hoosiers where they wanna go with as few potholes, detours, and lane restrictions as possible.

I am pleased to welcome, Republican Representative Bob Behning of Indianapolis, longtime chair of the House Education Committee, Dr. Katie Jenner, who as Indiana's first appointed Secretary of Education, leads the Indiana Department of Education and chairs the State Board of Education, and Democratic Representative Ed Delaney of Indianapolis, a minority member of that same education panel.

Thank you all, (Katie clearing throat) for being here, this will be a lively discussion.

- [Katie] Yes.

- All right, teachers and educators are in the business of grading, let's start with you, Secretary.

What grade does the state of Indiana deserve right now, in terms of its K through 12 education system?

- We'll start with an easy one, huh?

So when we look at Indiana's data, Indiana typically performs above national average in math, typically between 10 and 15, in top states in the country.

In reading, we're more statistically average.

The challenge is our reading scores have continued to decline, so where we used to be ahead, a decade ago, we're in the decline mode.

So we have to overcome that and get back up.

- And we will be talking about, certainly, the literacy issue - Absolutely.

- at the third level, as we get into this, - Yes.

- 'cause that is one of the priorities for lawmakers.

- As you look at.

I notice you haven't given me a grade yet, but I might come back to that.

(Katie chuckling) But are we heading this direction?

Are we on the right track, the wrong track?

- I think we are heading this direction, which is not- - For those listening on the radio, she's sort of maybe, - It's a slight upward.

- clearing the trees at the end of the runway.

- And we have to go.

Our challenge right now is we have to move faster, in terms of the urgency of acceleration and moving up.

And in terms of a grade, you're probably gonna hold me to that.

Mm.

I'd say right now, we are probably C plus, B minus.

We're a little bit above average, when you look nationwide, but Indiana is absolutely, absolutely capable and we must be an A.

And I think we, I know we can get there.

- C plus B minus, boy tough grader than I- - I am a tough grader, I always was.

Ask them that question.

- I might never have gotten into IU if you'd been my grade school teacher.

(Katie chuckling) Bob Behning, you've been around in the general assembly since '92, I believe.

Long time chair, as I noted in the introduction.

A lot of the policy changes are your handy work.

You're the architect of many of them.

Looking back, let's go to '92 as our benchmark, are students in Indiana better off now, or worse off, than they were back then?

- I would say probably better off.

I think, unfortunately though, the world's changed a lot since 1992 and we are much more a global economy.

And so we're not just competing against other states, we're competing against the whole world.

And what worries me and what I lose sleep over, is some of the PISA results that just came out, were five years behind the world in math.

Now Indiana, to Secretary Jenner's credit, we are actually ahead of a lot of other states, but we still, I think that as a country, we really need to embrace and have a higher level of respect for education and really try to move the ball forward in a much bigger way.

- So you're saying we are better than 30 some years ago.

If you had to identify one thing as the biggest contributor to the gains, and feel free to cite one of your own initiatives, 'cause again, many of the changes bear your signature.

- Well, in fairness, you're giving me credit for a lot.

And I will have to tell you- - It could be blame, too, though, depending on how- - True, it could be, very well.

I actually think I still have been in the minority more than I've been the majority.

So I was in the minority a long period of time.

I look to things like school choice as an opportunity to start reflecting and creating more competition among all of our schools.

So I don't look at it as a single source that's gonna change the world, but I also think that it does create some synergies and some motivation for all of us to be more reflective and try to really drive towards performance.

And I think you see that in some communities where you have significant choice, where all of a sudden we've got public schools trying to get...

Traditional public schools out here trying to advertise, get kids because of their moving towards higher level quality.

But it would be the one thing that I think you could...

I did have direct responsibility for.

- I was gonna say, that one is your handy work and we can certainly talk about that.

- But I think the school choice thing makes some politicians feel good.

I don't think it makes much difference to our overall achievement, especially because we don't have any mechanism to enforce excellence, certainly on the private schools or the voucher schools.

And we don't have, in my view, very good mechanisms to enforce excellence on the charter schools.

They're altogether too independent.

So I'm not sure that that's the solution.

- So I'll ask you the same question.

Are schools better?

This is my homage to- - No I don't think they're- - Better off today or not?

- I don't think they're particularly better.

I think that the Secretary has it right, that we're doing better in some areas, especially math.

And I think we're focused on the right issues.

The problem is we keep, this goes back to Mitch Daniels here, we keep trying to reinvent or find some mysterious secret sauce that we can put out there that's gonna make things go better.

Well, that's not how it works.

Education, in my view, is just hard, grinding old work.

And the number one component is have good teachers and we don't put the emphasis we need to on teacher recruitment, teacher education.

The departments of education in our universities are not as strong as they need to be.

So we start with that problem.

So I think we need to pay more attention to qualifying teachers, getting them in, getting young people to wanna do that job.

If we get that done, everything else, in my view, will begin to flow.

- Well, teacher salaries was a big initiative- - Yeah, it's been a big plus.

- A few years ago, - and it has gone up significantly.

- We've moved in the right direction on that.

Some of us, like myself, have yelled about it and there's been some response.

I think that's healthy, that will help on that front.

And I think part of it is we gotta make a commitment to education.

There's too much of this debate that we're having about whether everybody should have a career education, a technical vocational education, or go to college.

We need to figure out how to do two things at once.

And anybody who's capable of college and wants to go there, we gotta encourage them.

Anybody who doesn't wanna do that, has some other abilities, we gotta encourage them.

I think we're moving in that direction, but it's a huge task.

- Well now we've had foreshadowing of all the things I wanna talk about, school choice, work-based curriculum, and so forth.

But Secretary, let me ask you again of this notion that things haven't had a chance to settle, the dust hasn't settled.

I mean, do we have reform fatigue when it comes to education here?

I can't think of a governor back to the first one I covered, Bob Orr, with A Plus Program for Educational Excellence that hasn't stressed education reform.

And sometimes, that meant tests.

You know, this year you take one test, next year we're changing it.

They would change it.

Do we need to just stop and take a deep breath, do you think?

- I don't think as a state...

I think it would be dangerous if we did halt, because then we would plateau.

I think the opportunity right now is to really identify... Because you can't boil the ocean or we're gonna get nothing done.

We have to identify exactly what our focus areas are.

So, for example, that foundation has to be strong.

Reading, STEM, then you look at the high school space, Indiana is leading the nation in thinking about how to redesign and improve high school so that children, quite frankly, their fire of purpose is lit.

And to the points being shared, that regardless if they go to employment, enrollment, or enlistment leading to service, they have options.

And that transition is starting much before they walk across a graduation stage.

So, focus on the foundations, and then make sure that high school design best sets the child up for success in their future.

That's the key focus that we're after.

- Well, I'm sure you're... Somebody who wants to get to that A in that glide path or that takeoff- - Yes, I'm very competitive, We're gonna get there.

- A little bit more quickly, You'll like the fact that the pace of change has been significant, and we can look at school choice.

Revisiting that issue.

2011 is when you first introduced that, I think it was signed- - Well actually, you go back to charter schools was all the way back in- - 2000.

- Right, yeah.

- But with the so-called voucher program, which I know that's the shorthand, certainly.

2011 started with maybe 4,000 students, I think was the target.

And every couple years since, you know, the parameters have changed, the qualifiers have changed, thresholds for salary.

Now essentially everybody can can go to...

I mean, is that the way this is supposed to be?

And if so, how do you feel about the...

It's not gonna happen this session, but Senate Bill 255, which will essentially take everything you've done and say, "That's great, but now we're gonna go a different direction."

- I mean, I clearly... Senate Bill 255 aside, I think that clearly there's been a lot of motivation in the General Assembly, at least among both the House and Senate, to look at universal choice and continue to, I think, that I would assume that next session that would likely be the case where we just have... Make it available to everyone.

I also, to have- - So you (indistinct) with the 10% who are too wealthy to get a voucher will get it.

I don't think that does a darn thing for anybody except those people.

- Well, it'll be more than 10%, presumably.

We had 30% growth last year, even before the- - No, but there's only 10% of the population makes too much.

- I think it's smaller than that.

- Yeah, that makes too much.

- It's smaller even than that, I think 97% of students qualify.

- But going back to...

I mean I would have to agree with some of Ed's opening remarks, in terms of teacher quality too.

I think what...

I think we all have to keep our eye on the ball and really focus.

School choice, you know, as I've always looked at it as being a lifesaver to a lot of parents who have kids in a school that may not be meeting their needs.

We heard yesterday on the floor of the house about an individual who had, one of our colleagues who had a kid who had autism and was struggling, and he had the resources to move his kid.

But I think it's an opportunity to kind of send a message to the system that we all have to get focused on getting better.

But I do believe, like what Secretary Jenner says, we do need to focus a lot, and reading is clearly something, it's a foundation building skill.

I'm so excited that we have this Lilly Endowments money has really helped, I think, catapult us into leadership across the country.

I think focus on STEM is going to continue to be something that's definitely necessary.

As I said earlier, we're five years behind the Chinese on terms of math performance.

So I think it's... We have to work, all of us have to work together.

It is not something that one of us can do individually.

And I don't think school choice in of itself is going to change the world, I think it's gonna require all of us working collaboratively.

- I think the big change to see coming, that I see behind these new bills about literacy and so forth, the big change is we're getting down to where we virtually have to identify the individual kid who has a problem.

And so if we have 20% who aren't reading, that's rough.

That would be 15,000 or 16,000 kids in first, second, third grade, who aren't reading where they should be.

We're moving towards trying to identify each one of those kids and assign a coach to them.

I don't think we have the capacity to do that.

That's one of my great fears.

I think it's a great ambition, but I don't think we have the structure, the capacity, or the cadre of teachers to do this.

And I think what we do is we like to invent these reforms, but then we don't measure what they achieved and then we abandon them.

The worst example is the testing, where we've stumbled.

I think we're finally getting somewhere on testing.

I think we're gonna- - I think we've had one now in place for a couple years.

- A couple years.

- Yeah, we had the SAT in high school, is a very smart idea.

You're paying attention to this piece of this international test or other, this NAEP test.

So we've, I think we've identified- - They are getting along aren't they?

- I think we've identified these tests that are useful, but now we've gotta build them into our system and get the public to understand them.

I think that's absolutely critical.

If the public doesn't know what they're about, they're gonna be kidding about ISTEP again, I'm sick of hearing about ISTEP.

I'm sure you are too.

Whatever it is this week, call it what you want.

- Whether or not the mechanics are in place and all the sort of the niceties to the Secretary's point about the speed with which the state needs to move, if we have a literacy crisis now and one in five third graders apparently can't pass the I-Read exam, - Yes.

- and we're also dealing with chronic absenteeism, the T word truancy, which I hadn't heard that word since in my childhood.

I mean, does something have to happen this session?

Obviously there is legislation moving, - Yes.

- on the reading front.

How significant is that?

- Something has to happen this session.

It's not an option for our state.

Coming in, and our team came in in January, 2021, which was right after that initial covid, we started with let's understand where we are data wise, and then let's immediately get after it.

You heard about the Lilly Endowment funding and all of the partners in Indiana, we have $170 million investment on our teachers, because to both of their points, quality teachers matter as much as anything for a child's education.

So with that investment, the next step is, okay, what about the student intervention?

So to Representative Delaney's point, if right now, at the end of third grade, which is a pivotal time for a child, we have 14,000 children approximately, in 2023 who were not able to read by the end of the year.

About 6,000 got a good cause exemption, meaning they most commonly had a special education IEP or maybe were an English learner.

And then, for the most part, most of the students, about 73, 7400 moved forward to fourth grade, not able to read.

So the goal- - This would sort of address that, say, hey, if they're not - This is today- doing it, let's- - Yes, this is today in Indiana.

The goal of the discussion at the general assembly is early intervention.

It's how do you get to the child at kindergarten, at first grade, at second grade, let's leverage the current assessment, the current funding, and support our schools and our teachers.

- Yeah, I'm with you.

- I mean, given that that, if the problem seems to be creeping up at that, or at least is manifesting itself at that early grade, and yet you look at a lot of the legislation that the state has enacted, in recent years it's about secondary education, making sure that people get the apprenticeships or the internships.

Is enough being done for those early years?

- Oh, I clearly am a strong advocate of where we're moving right now.

I think it is science and reading - He's saying yes.

- Yes, I am saying yes, Thank you.

- We need to focus.

He's saying yes, we need to focus on those little kids.

- The science has changed over the last, we now know how kids actually learn to read, in a very effective way.

I think what has happened over time is, you know, clearly technology has moved, we can tell by brain science exactly where we need to be in terms of teaching that.

And unfortunately, we had kind of gotten off the, he and I have talked about this a long time 'cause we're gray haired guys in the room, that we learned teaching, I mean were taught phonics.

Now phonics isn't just the only, I mean science and reading isn't just phonics, it's fluency, context, all of all of it, but clearly we moved away from that and kids have struggled because of it.

And that's I think something we've, it's a foundational building skill that we have to have in place.

You know, when Dr. Bennett was Secretary of Education or Superintendent of Public Instruction, I remember the takeover schools, we had like Manual High School on the south side.

One of the reasons those schools was taken over was because kids were walking into high school with a third to sixth grade reading level.

You wanna know why we have truancy issues?

If you walk into a high school environment and you have a third grade reading level and now you're giving a 10th, 11th, a 12th grade text, you're lost, and it's like, "Why should I show up?"

"I'm gonna drop out," et cetera.

So I think we have to focus on foundation of reading for sure.

- And cursive writing, obviously, no, that's just an inside joke.

- One of the big concerns I have is what I call, this nasty term that I have, the education industrial complex.

We have all these groups who wanna make money off of it, that scares me.

I want to use our teachers, our teacher education programs to get people prepared.

We're creating all these new categories, literacy coaches and so forth.

We've got ability to contract outside.

It all makes me very nervous.

I like the core group, the superintendent, the principals.

the teachers.

- You don't like the profit.

- I don't like these people come in- - Is there a place for the profit incentive in public, in education?

- I don't see much for it, I really don't.

I see an example, a silly example this week, you know, we used to have release time.

It was understood you could go two hours of religious study.

Now we got an organization, a not-for-profit, that gathers the kids together, gathers the churches together, comes over and tells the superintendent when they wanna have classes.

What are we doing?

We let too many people into our buildings and too many people into our wallets.

And that's what concerns me.

- So, with all of it is that, the Indiana model, for supporting our teachers is, the $170 million investment works directly with the schools.

- I understand.

- They hire their literacy coach.

And the literacy coach, is truly there to work with the teachers, to review the data, to be that immediate support.

- I'll listen.

- It's what we saw in the state of Mississippi, the Mississippi Miracle.

They went from last in the nation, to now middle of the pack.

Now, we're still higher than them with reading, but we're sure not jumping over 25 states to get to the middle of the pack.

We're decreasing in reading.

So I think we have to learn from what they did.

So those literacy coaches are really intentional.

- If they're part of the system that's fine.

- Yeah, they are.

- They are.

- But where we got off base, on the reading, was, and this, the right wing might like this, some academics came up (Katie chuckling) with an idea that there might be a better way, you know, to teach kids to read.

Then some publishers, educational entrepreneurs, put together books of this new method, got it pushed out through the system.

So I think education is pretty darn basic, and this constant change and reform and all this is not getting us in.

- Well let me, I mean - We can agree on that, by the way.

(Jon chuckling) Balanced literacy is what he's referring to.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Not, science of reading is the movement today, based on the science.

Balanced literacy, if you listen to "Sold a Story" podcast, really, shows our challenge and what we have to overcome.

- But we have to be careful that we don't make another similar mistake.

- Yes sir, - That's my big concern.

- we do.

- Well what the agenda is, is core skills.

- Right.

- You know, math.

- Absolutely.

- And that was what leadership talked about, caucus leadership this session, and yet we see, as we always do, other bills.

As Chairman of the Education Committee, (Ed chuckling) how do you, is it frustrating to know that the eye is on the ball of third grade reading for instance, but now we're talking about chaplain, the ability to hire chaplains to serve as counselors, or the notion of having extra time off for religious instruction, or cell phone usage.

And, I mean, lots of different...

I mean, is it...

I guess you said we can do more things, do multiple things at once, so I guess this is an example of that.

- I think if you could isolate and say, you know, what Ed brings up to the table is the fact that we changed the word from may to shall, - Right.

- in terms of providing an opportunity for kids.

- That's on the educational- - On the- (indistinct chatter) - How about chaplains for instance?

- Well, chaplains, I did not hear that bill.

So, if that bill is - Thank you.

out there I'm not aware.

- One of your best decisions of the year.

(laughing) - But the reality is, a kid is not just a, reading is not the only thing that excites kids.

And I think you have to look at the whole child.

You can't just say, you know, all we're gonna do is focus on reading, 'cause if the kid doesn't feel a sense of fulfillment, doesn't feel engaged...

If a kid comes to school hungry, there's a number of things that impact learning.

So you cannot say it's just one thing.

And I, that's why we don't look, Education Committee looks at a variety of things.

Cell phones, you bring up a great point.

I mean, there's a lot of educators who would actually tell you that it is a huge distraction in terms of learning.

And whether it be a third grader in reading or a high schooler who has access to social media, I mean, there are number of impacts that actually impact the quality of learning that our kids have.

- Yeah, but are we the ones to decide that, that's what gets me.

The teachers- - Cell phones do seem to be a unifier here to a certain extent, I mean, is that a, is that something, is that the kind of thing that people can say, "I don't understand all this science of reading and stuff, but boy, I know cell phones can be a distraction.

Kids are looking at porn."

- Why is the legislature deciding that?

- Well, should- - I mean, what do we know?

- I tell you, - What do we know?

- I tell you, part of the feedback that we hear from schools a lot is that cell phones are absolutely a challenge for schools to manage, in terms of, even if they have rules where you know, keep 'em in the locker, they still have 'em out and they're filming this and that, that they shouldn't, causing social media drama.

So I think from the educator standpoint, we're hearing a lot of support for the willingness for the general assembly to remove a barrier to educating Indiana students.

- Is that that they want us to take the heat?

I don't mind taking the heat, - I think you take the arrows, - if that's what it's - go on and do it.

- all about, I think the teachers can say get rid of your phones - All right kids, right now.

- kids, we're almost out of time.

I'm gonna make you clean the erasers if you run long here.

Thank you though, I know we could talk a lot longer.

This has been a great discussion we have to do more, 'cause education is where it begins and ends.

Again, my guests have been Republican representative Bob Behning of Indianapolis, Indiana Secretary of Education Dr. Katie Jenner, and Democratic Representative Ed Delaney of Indianapolis.

And time now for my weekly conversation with Ed Feigenbaum, publisher of Indiana Legislative Insight and its sister newsletter, Indiana Education Insight, both part of Hannah News Service.

Ed, we covered a lot of territory, and even the history, but fast forward to this session.

Gimme a lightning round.

Sort of, you can even do it alphabetically if you want, in true education fashion.

What bills do we really need to pay attention to?

- From A to V?

(Jon chuckling) We've got antisemitism, we've got the age of school starting, we've got cursive handwriting, we've got chronic absenteeism, we've got chaplains in schools, we've got reading improvement, we've got, gosh, what else?

- Wait, you just went from C to R. - Religious instruction.

- There's probably something in the middle there.

(Ed chuckling) There's a lot percolating - Absolutely.

- for a session that wasn't supposed to have much going on.

- Yeah, and that's interesting because at the the beginning it was, yes, we're not going to do a whole lot this session, we don't need to do a whole lot this session, but education is really taking the spotlight.

- What's the most meaningful of the, of the A through V?

What has the most significance?

- Well certainly the reading improvement, and I think we talked in our leadership panel show, that it was interesting that they're not letting the ground dry underneath them on that because they did pass the science of reading bill recently, but they're not taking time to see how it takes effect before they make changes again, because they're really concerned about that.

But one thing that we've not really talked about today was the bigger thing of the next transition into colleges and the transition into the workforce, and the question- - Which may or may not involve college, I guess is the whole workforce model.

- Right, and that's the key.

You know, we're talking about potentially repurposing the Frank O'Bannon grants, the 21st Century Scholars program, and saying, okay, you can use these toward workforce improvement type things, career development programs, and you can also potentially get, as the governor was pushing in his state of the state address, associate's degrees or credentials for people who haven't fulfilled the full four year credit regimen for state colleges and universities.

- Do you think we, as a state, are looking at this as a, the whole range that as, from pre-K up to, you know, post-secondary education and beyond, or do we handle it piecemeal?

- Well, we've been handling it piecemeal and I think we're trying to look at things a little bit more comprehensively now, but we're still dealing with each of these things, you know, in pieces.

Whether it's, you know, chaplains in schools, which I think may have a tough time in the house, oddly enough.

Or whether it's, you know, policies on things like cell phones in schools.

You know, we're really not taking a big picture approach to some of those things, those policy things, but we are, on some of the major things like reading improvement and credentialing.

- Well Ed, I can always count on you to give us a good education.

As always, I appreciate your insight.

- Thank you, Jon.

- Mahatma Gandhi observed, "It is health that is real wealth and not pieces of gold or silver."

True enough, but there's also no disputing that gold and silver, in the form of adequate state funding, can make it easier to avoid or recover from illness.

We'll examine the healing power of money on the next "Indiana Lawmakers".

Well, that concludes another edition of "Indiana Lawmakers", I'm Jon Schwantes, and on behalf of commentator Ed Feigenbaum, WFYI Public Media, and Indiana's other public broadcasting stations, I thank you for joining us and I invite you to visit wfyi.org for more State House news.

Until next week, take care.

(uplifting music)