♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Renee: WHEN IT COMES TO POLICING IN AMERICA, AN EASTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY CRIMINOLOGY PROFESSOR IS CONSIDERED A LEADING SCHOLAR ON MATTERS OF POLICE RAIDS AND MILITARIZATION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

Dr. PETER KRARKA IS A SOUGHT AFTER ACADEMIC WHOSE LEGISLATION LIMITS THE USE OF NO KNOCK SEARCH AND WARRANT WARRANTS.

A CONVERSATION WITH PROFESSOR KRASKA NEXT ON CONNECTIONS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY ON CONNECTIONS.

AS THE 2021 KENTUCKY LEGISLATIVE SESSION DREW TO AN END, LAWMAKERS PASSED A MEASURE LIMITING THE USE OF NO KNOCK WARRANTS THAT ALLOW POLICE TO ENTER PREMISES WITHOUT NOTICE.

THAT TYPE OF WARRANT WAS USED TO ENTER THE LOUISVILLE APARTMENT OF 26-YEAR-OLD BLACK E.M.T.

BREONNA TAYLOR WHO WAS FATALLY SHOT BY POLICE DURING A BOTCHED DRUG RAID IN MARCH OF LAST YEAR PUB OUT CRIES HAVE GROWN LOUDER AND KENTUCKY LAWMAKERS RESPONDED BUT FOR SOME, LEGISLATION LEGISLATION ON NO KNOCK WARRANTS DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH FOR SOME.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND THE LARGER TREND POLICE MILITARIZATION HAVE PLAYED AND IMPROVING POLICING IS PROFESSOR PETE KRASKA.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, RENEE.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> IT HAS BEEN A PRETTY ROBUST SESSION FOR 30 DAY ODD YEAR WHERE THINGS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SLOWER AND NOT AS RAMBUNCTIOUS BUT LAWMAKERS NEVER DISAPPOINT AND UP WITH OF THE BIG BILLS THAT GOT A LOT OF NATIONAL ATTENTION AND EVEN AS IT PASSED THE WEEK THAT WE WERE TAPING THIS PROGRAM, SENATE BILL 4, WHICH WAS SPORED BY THE SENATE PRESIDENT, REPUBLICAN ROBERT STIVERS THAT LIMITS THE USE OF NO KNOCK WARRANTS AND YOU WERE VERY INSTRUMENTAL IN TESTIFYING ON THIS MEASURE.

YOU WORKED WITH STATE REPRESENTATIVE ATIKA SCOTT FROM LOUISVILLE ON A COMPETING BILL THAT WOULD HAVE BANNED THEM OUTRIGHT STATEWIDE THAT DID NOT REALLY EVEN GET A LOT OF ATTENTION OR HEARING, TO BE VOTED ON TELL BUS THIS PARTICULAR PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT IS SET TO BECOME LAW.

DOES IT GO FAR ENOUGH?

IS IT THE RIGHT PIECE OF LEGISLATION AT THE RIGHT TIME?

>> WELL, FIFERS OF ALL IT DOES SOME GOOD THINGS.

IT ADDRESSES THE PROBLEM OF NO KNOCK WARRANTS BEING ISSUED INAPPROPRIATELY FOR LOW LEVEL DRUG PROBLEMS OR DRUG INFRACTIONS.

AND THAT HAS BEEN A HUGE PROBLEM HISTORICALLY FOR THE LAST 35, 40 YEARS AND WE'VE DOMESTICKED THAT PRETTY EXTENSIVELY.

SO IT ADDRESSES IT BY SAYING THE ONLY TIME IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY FROM NOW ON THE POLICE CAN GET A NO KNOCK WARRANT IS TO ARE A SERIOUS VIOLENT SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEY CAN PROVE THAT THOSE VIOLENT CIRCUMSTANCES EXIST.

>> Renee: CLEAR AND CONVINCING IS WHAT THE LEGISLATION SAYS.

TELL US WHY THAT SIGNIFICANT LANGUAGE OPPOSED TO A PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE.

>> CLEAR AND CONVINCING MEANS THE POLICE HAVE TO COME WITH SUBSTANTIVE EVIDENCE AND GO TO A MAGISTRATE OR A JUDGE AND SAY HERE ARE ALL THE REASONS WE HAVE TO ENGAGE IN THIS REALLY RISKY TACTIC.

AND SOMETHING THAT WE TAKE SEAR WHY USUALLY AND SO THE JUDGE HAS ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO LOOK AT AND SAY YES THIS IS WORTHY OF THIS LEVEL OF POLICING.

THIS KIND OF DANGEROUS APPROACH SO LET'S GO AHEAD AND DO IT AND THAT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, FOR THE LAST 25-30 YEARS, NO KNOCK WARRANTS HAVE BEEN HANDED OUT PRETTY LIBERALLY.

NOW IT DEPENDS ON THE JURISDICTION BUT IT HAS BEEN HANDED OUT PRETTY LIBERALLY AND THAT'S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE SEEN.

>> Renee: AND FOR DRUG OFFENSES.

WHY IS THAT AN IMPORTANT TACTIC TO GET A DRUG RAID.

>> THAT GETS INTO ORIGINS OF HOW ALL THIS CAME ABOUT.

IN THE 1970s AND EARLY 1980s, NO KNOCK WARRANTS HARDLY EXISTED.

IT WASN'T EVEN SOMETHING THAT WAS DONE.

IN FACT OUR RESEARCH DOCUMENTED THAT THERE WERE MAYBE OWN ONLY A THOUSAND NATIONWIDE, 2,000 AT MOST TAKING PLACE BUT BY THE YEAR 2010, THERE WERE 60,000 OF THESE BEING CONDUCTED PER YEAR BY POLICE DEPARTMENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> Renee: CONNECTED TO THE WAR ON DRUGS?

>> ALL OF IT IS CONNECTED TO GETTING INSIDE PRIVATE RESIDENCES TO SEARCH FOR THE POSSIBILITY THAT SOME TYPE OF LOW LEVEL DRUG INFRACTION HAS TAKEN PLACE.

>> Renee: AND LOW LEVEL, SO WHAT CONSTITUTES A LOW LEVEL DRUG INFRACTION?

>> LOW LEVEL DRUG INFRACTIONS WOULD MEAN SIMPLE POSSESSION AND GENERALLY FOR MARIJUANA.

STATISTICALLY THOSE ARE THE PREDOMINANT SITUATIONS WHERE SOME SORT OF NO KNOCK DRUG RAID WOULD TAKE PLACE.

AND WE HAD POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT WERE DOING 500-600 OF THESE AA YEAR AND SOME OF THAT HAS PARED BACK AT THIS POINT BECAUSE MOST OF THOSE WERE DONE WITH SWAT TEAMS.

TODAY, WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF THEM STILL DONE WITH SWAT TEAMS BUT A LOT OF IT HAS SHIFTED TO WHAT ARE CALLED DRUG TACTICAL TEAMS SIMILAR TO A SWAT TEAM.

>> Renee: ESPECIALLY TRAINED FOR THAT TYPE OF EVENT, RIGHT?

>> YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE WELL TRAINED BUT THE TRAINING IS PRETTY MINIMAL: THERE IS A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION THAT SAYS OFFICERS SHOULD RECEIVE 250 HOURS OF TRAINING PER YEAR PER OFFICER AND OUR RESEARCH SHOWS THAT AT THE MOST THEY'RE GETTING ABOUT 100 TO 125 HOURS.

>> Renee: WHY IS THAT THE?

WHAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE DIFFERENTIAL?

>> IT'S EXPENSIVE.

TO KEEP A TACTICAL UNIT RUNNING REQUIRES A LOT OF MONEY OFTEN TIMES A POLICE DEPARTMENT WILL FUND THROUGH THE SAME RAIDS THAT THEY'RE CONDUCTING AND SO YOU KNOW, PART OF WHAT FUELED THIS WHOLE DRUG RAID PHENOMENON WAS THE POLICE WANTED TO GET INSIDE PRIVATE RESIDENCES SO THEY COULD CONFISCATE CASH AND PROPERTY AND THEN 85% OF THOSE PROCEEDS GO TO THEIR OWN BUDGETS AND 15% GO TO THE CONTRIBUTOR.

>> Renee: FINANCIAL INCENTIVE TO DO THAT.

>> UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE DO THAT AND THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME OF WHAT WAS AT PLAY IN THE DYNAMIC THAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE BREONNA TAYLOR CASE.

>> Renee: DOES THE LARGER LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNITY RECOGNIZE THE ERROR OF THESE NO KNOCK WARRANTS AND THE PHILOSOPHY BEHIND IT BEING RIDDLED WITH ISSUE.

ARE THEY FIRMLY COMMITTED TO THIS TYPE OF PRACTICE AND TACTIC.

>> LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNITY IS REALLY SPLIT, MUCH LIKE THE COUNTRY IS.

THEY'RE POLARIZED.

>> Renee: RIGHT.

>> YOU HAVE PROBABLY, I WOULD GUESS, HALF OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNITY THAT WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE SOME SIGNIFICANT REFORMS PUT IN PLACE AND THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A LOT OF THESE THINGS.

AND THEN HAVE YOU THE OTHER HALF , WOULD I CHARACTERIZE AS HIGHLY REGRESSIVE.

THEY GRAVITATE TOWARDS MILITARIZATION.

THEY SEE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY'RE POLICING IN AN AGGRESSIVE AND ADVERSARY ADVERSARIAL WAY.

THEY REALLY REVERE THE IDEA THAT THEY'RE THE THIN BLUE LINE BETWEEN ORDER AND ANARCHY AND THAT ELEMENT IN POLICING IS REALLY PUSHING BACK HARD ON ANY LEGISLATION THAT TRIES TO REFORM THE POLICE.

>> Renee: INTERESTING BECAUSE AT A TIME THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE, SIX YEARS IN KENTUCKY AND EVEN NATIONWIDE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM HAS BEEN THE BIG BUZZ TERM, RIGHT?

WE HAVE ADOPTED THAT IN OUR LEXICON AND A BIPARTISAN PUSH TO NOT CONDEMN AND INCARCERATE THOSE WHO ARE OR DEALING WITH DRUG ADDICTION, BUT TO GIVE THEM TREATMENT AND WE HAVE EVEN HAD LOTS OF PIECES OF LEGISLATION EVEN IN THIS LAST SESSION ON FELON REENTRY AND HELPING THOSE FOLKS WHO ARE FORMERLY INCARCERATED GET EMPLOYMENT, WHICH WE WE KNOW IS A BIG DETERRENT FOR THEM AND CAUSES RESID SIMPLE RATES.

IF THEY CAN'T GET A JOB, THEY END UP ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE LAW AGAIN.

IT SEEMS LIKE THEY'RE DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE PART OF MOVING CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM FORWARD, THEN GETTING RID OF NO KNOCK WARRANTS WOULD SEEM LIKE A NO BRAINER.

MAYBE I'M OVER SIMPLIFYING IT.

>> YOU ARE NOT OVERSIMPLIFYING IT AT ALL AND GETS TO THE INCO HERNS IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE POLICY AND LEGISLATION.

PEOPLE WRAP THEIR MINDS AROUND, PARTICULARLY POLITICIANS CAN WRAP THEIR MINDS AROUND SOMETHING LIKE REENTRY.

LET'S TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE AS THEY COME BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY.

LET'S NOT OSTRACIZE THEM, LET'S HAVE GOOD TRAINING PROGRAMS, ET CETERA.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING CRIME OR WAGING A WAR AGAINST DRUGS OR CRIME, THEN A VERY DIFFERENT MENTALITY KICKS IN AND IF A POLICE LOBBYING GROUP, A POLICE UNION OR JUST INFLUENTIAL SHERIFF COMES IN AND SAYS WELL HOLD IT A SECOND.

WE NEED THESE TOOLS TO EFFECTIVELY FIGHT THE WAR ON DRUGS, THEN POLITICIANS USUALLY BACK OFF AND DON'T WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN ANYTHING AND I THINK SOME OF THAT PROBABLY WAS AT PLAY WITH THIS WHOLE DYNAMIC ON DOING SOMETHING SUBSTANTIVE ABOUT THE NO KNOCK DRUG RAID PROBLEM IN KENTUCKY.

>> Renee: SO LET'S TALK ABOUT SENATE BILL 4.

AND BEFORE THAT, VIRGINIA WAS THE FIRST STATE I WOULD HEAR ABOUT PEOPLE HAVING A STATEWIDE BREONNA TAYLOR LAW LIKE LOUISVILLE HAS IN ORDINANCE FORM.

WE KNOW SB 4 IS NOT NAMED AFTER BREONNA TAYLOR AND THE SPONSOR OF THE BILL THAT YOU HELPED TO MOVE ALONG A LITTLE BIT, ATIKA SCOTT SAID THE BILL GETTING TRACTION AND SET TO BECOME LAW IS NOT BREONNA'S LAW AND SO TELL US WHY IT IS NOT WHAT WOULD HONOR BREONNA TAYLOR.

>> IT'S COMPLICATED AND AIF SPENT THE LAST SEVEN MONTHS TRYING TO EXPLAIN IN REAL CLEAR TERMS WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WITH RESTRICTING AND BANNING NO KNOCK WARRANTS DOESN'T REALLY AFFECT THE OVERALL PROBLEM OF NO KNOCK DRUG RAIDS.

AND IT'S COMPLICATED, BUT IT'S SIMPLE.

AND IT BOILS DOWN TO THIS.

THE POLICE CAN GO GET AN OFFICIAL NO KNOCK WARRANT WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE AND THEY JUST SIMPLY BUST THE DOOR DOWN AS SOON AS THEY GET TO IT.

BUT THAT'S RARE.

MOST OF THE TIME THEY'RE GETTING A REGULAR KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE WARRANT.

CONSTITUTIONALLY A REGULAR KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE WARRANT MEANS THEY WALK UP TO THE DOOR.

THEY KNOCK, ANNOUNCE THEMSELVES, THEY'RE IN UNIFORM.

THEY LET THE PERSON INSIDE KNOW WHY THEY'RE THERE AND GIVE AMPLE TIME FOR THE PERSON TO OPEN THE DOOR.

>> Renee: WHAT IS AMPLE TIME?

IS THAT DEFINED?

>> THE SUPREME COURT SAID ANYWHERE FROM 15-20 SECONDS.

MODEL LEGISLATION THAT I HELPED PUT TOGETHER SAID IT SHOULD BE A MINIMUM OF 30 SECONDS BUT IT'S GOT TO BE AT LEAST ENOUGH TIME FOR PEOPLE TO GET THEIR WITS ABOUT THEM AND GET TO THE DOOR.

>> Renee: ESPECIALLY IF IT IS LATE AT NIGHT.

>> AND ESPECIALLY IF IT IS A HOUSEHOLD THAT HAS KIDS OR SOMEBODY THAT MIGHT BE DISABLED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THE COULD DELAY THE TIMEFRAME.

>> Renee: THAT'S A GOOD POINT AND SO THE POLICE, UNFORTUNATELY AND THIS HAS BECOME BAKED IN, NORMALIZED WHERE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY, WALK UP TO THE DOOR WITH A NORMAL SEARCH WARRANT WHERE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO KNOCK AND ANNOUNCE AND THEY DON'T.

THEY KNOCK MAYBE ANNOUNCE MAYBE ANNOUNCED BUT THEY SIMULTANEOUSLY BREACH THAT DOOR, SIMULTANEOUSLY DO A SURPRISE RAID INSIDE THE PEOPLE'S HOMES, ESSENTIALLY CONDUCTING A NO KNOCK RAID BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A NO KNOCK WARRANT.

THAT'S THE NORM.

THE.

THAT'S WHERE THE REAL PROBLEM LIES.

A RESEARCHER HERE IN KENTUCKY STUDIED A MAJOR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

HE OBSERVED 73 OF THESE DRUG WARRANTS BEING EXECUTED BY THE POLICE REGULAR NORMAL SEARCH WARRANTS.

OUT OF THE 73, 73 WERE CONDUCTED AS A NO KNOCK RAID.

73 OUT OF 73 WERE CONDUCTED AS A NO KNOCK RAID.

THAT'S WHY WHEN I TESTIFIED IN FRANK FOR THE, ATIKA SCOTT'S BILL NOT ONLY PUT PRESTRICKSES ON NO KNOCK WARRANTS.

IT SAYS WE NEED TO PUT RESTRICTIONS ON NORMAL SEARCH WARRANTS WE NEED TO HAVE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE, WE NEED TO MAKE THE POLICE WAIT.

WE NEED TO HAVE A RIGOROUS APPLICATION PROTOCOL IN PLACE.

THOSE ALSO HAVE TO BE OVERSEEN BY TOP ADMINISTRATORS.

AND YOU KNOW, WE'VE GLOT A WHOLE LIST OF THINGS THAT SHOULD BE IN PLACE TO CONTROL THOSE.

AND SO BECAUSE SB-4 DOESN'T GET TO ANY OF THAT, I WOULD SAY IT'S ONLY ADDRESSING A SMALL SLIVER OF THE REAL PROBLEM, THE REAL PROBLEM THAT AFFECTS COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND HAS BEEN AFFECTING COMMUNITIES OF COLOR FOR 30 YEARS NOW.

THAT PROBLEM IS NOT GOING TO GO ELSEWHERE.

THE FAMILY IN LOUISVILLE WHO HAD THERE I HOME RAIDED SIX MONTHS BEFORE BREONNA TAYLOR WAS KILLED WITH A SWAT TEAM, THAT WAS DONE WITH A REGULAR SEARCH WARRANT.

THAT FAMILY AND WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH HAS HAPPENED TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN IN LOUISVILLE AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN UNTIL SOMEONE STEPS UP AND SAYS THIS IS NOT APPROPRIATE AND SOME IN THE POLICE COMMUNITY ARE SAYING THIS IS NOT APPROPRIATE BUT NOT ENOUGH OF THEM.

>> Renee: SENATE BILL 4 TO GIVE PEOPLE DETAILS AND THEY HOPEFULLY KNOW A LOT ABOUT THIS THEY CAN ONLY BE CARRIED OUT BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 6:00 A.M. AND 10:00 P.M. A HOUSE FLOOR AMENDMENT TRIED TO EXTEND THAT TO MIDNIGHT.

THAT WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL.

IT IS NOT NAMED AFTER BREONNA TAYLOR.

PART OF ROBERT STIVERS BILL WOULD ALLOW ONLY THE SWAT TEAMS TO EXECUTE THE WARRANTS BUT THE HOUSE CHANGED THAT TO ALLOW, AND FOR RURAL AREAS WITH LESS RESOURCES COUNTIES WITH FEWER THAN 90,000 RESIDENTS TO SKIP THE PROVISION AND HAVE OFFICERS EXECUTE THOSE BUT THEY WOULD HAVE TO USE, IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE BODY CAMERAS BECAUSE NOT EVERY DEPARTMENT CAN AFFORD THAT, THEY WOULD STILL NEED TO HAVE AN AUDIO VERSION OF THAT.

I DON'T KNOW IF THE BILL REALLY ADDRESSES WHEN YOU HAVE TO TURN THOSE ON AND HOW LONG THEY HAVE TO BE ON AFTER THE EXECUTION OF THE WARRANT, RIGHT?

AND I THINK THAT WAS A BIG PART OF MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS IN THE BILL BUT CERTAINLY A PART OF THE DISCUSSION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ENGAGING THOSE DEVICES A MINUTE OR SEVERAL MINUTES BEFORE YOU START THE EXECUTION OF THE WARRANT AND THEN LEAVING THAT RUNNING WELL BEYOND THAT TIME AND REMEMBER PERCUSSIONS FOR NOT COMPLYING WITH THAT, THAT EVIDENCE THAT WAS GOTTEN WOULD BE INADMISSIBLE IN COURT.

I DON'T KNOW IF THOSE PUNISHMENTS ARE STRINGENT ENOUGH BUT WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE FINAL VERSION AND WHAT YOU LIKE ABOUT IT?

>> I THINK WHAT ATIKA SCOTT WAS DOING WAS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE SHE WAS SAYING THE POLICE HAVE TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE NOT ONLY THROUGH BODY CAMS AND WE KNOW TIME AND TIME AGAIN, THESE KINDS OF THINGS HAPPEN AND THEN THE POLICE SAY THAT THERE ISN'T ANY BODY CAM FOOTAGE.

THAT HAPPENED IN THE BREONNA TAYLOR CASE I DON'T KNOW IF THERE WAS OR NOT BUT NONE SURFACED AND THERE WAS SOME SOMEBODY SAID SOMETHING THAT IT DIDN'T WORK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO IT IS CRITICAL THAT THE POLICE HAVE TO CHECK THEM, THEY HAVE TO TURN THEM ON.

THEY HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE WORKING.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE PEOPLE THAT HAVE THEM.

>> Renee: MULTIPLE PEOPLE THAT HAVE THEM, NOT JUST ONE, RIGHT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THEN IF THOSE PROTOCOLS ARE NOT FOLLOWED, YOU ARE RIGHT, THERE HAVE TO BE CONSEQUENCES AND ONE OF THE IMPORTANT CONSEQUENCES THAT THE BILL HAD IT IN IS THAT THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THE EVIDENCE.

SO IF THE POLICE WENT ABOUT THIS IN THE WRONG WAY AND VIOLATED THIS PARTICULAR LAW, THEN THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO USE THE EVIDENCE IN THE COURT OF LAW.

>> Renee: I THINK THAT APPLIES STILL FOR SB-4.

AND IF IT DOESN'T PREVENT FROM BEING ANY CIVIL ACTION THAT COULD BE PURSUED OR EVEN DISMISSAL OF AN OFFICER, THAT THOSE THINGS WOULD STILL BE ALLOWED THAT SB-4 DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO DAMAGE THOSE POINTS.

SO OVERALL, IF YOU HAD TO GIVE A SUMMARY ABOUT NO KNOCK WARRANTS IN KENTUCKY AND AT THE TIME THAT WE RECORDED THIS, THE GOVERNOR HAD NOT SIGNED IT, BUT I DOUBT THAT HE WILL OR LET IT BECOME LAW WITHOUT HIS SIGNATURE, HOW WOULD YOU SUMMARIZE WHAT THIS WILL DO PARTICULARLY IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

>> UNFORTUNATELY FOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, IT WILL END UP MAKING VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE.

IT WON'T AFFECT THE PROBLEM SUBSTANTIVELY.

IF THIS, INDEED IS A FIRST STEP AS SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING AND THERE IS POLITICAL MOMENTUM CONTINUES INTO NEXT YEAR AND MORE IS DONE, IT'S A GOOD FIRST STEP BUT IF IT'S A STEP TO NOWHERE, THEN IT FALLS SERIOUSLY SHORT OF ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING REAL.

>> Renee: A LOT OF YOUR RESEARCH REALLY FOCUSES ON IN THE EIGHT MINUTES REMAINING, THE MILITARIZATION OF POLICE.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE NOT NECESSARILY ON THIS PROGRAM BUT WHEN I'VE HAD CANDIDATES ON IN THIS STUDIO, WE'VE TALKED TO THEM ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

AND EVEN REPUBLICANS LIKE RAND PAUL HAVE MADE STATEMENTS ABOUT THIS IN THE PAST ABOUT HOW THE MILITARIZATION OF POLICE AND THIS STARTED-- THIS IS IN RESPONSE, TO HELP US UNDERSTAND THE GENESIS OF THIS.

IS THIS IN RESPONSE TO ACTS OF TERRORISM IN THE NATION BACK TO 2001 OR IS THIS PREDATE EVEN THAT.

>> IT REALLY DOES PREDATE THAT.

WE HAVE CLEAR DATA THAT SHOWS THE TREND LINES KICKED IN IN TERMS OF POLICE DEPARTMENT MILITARY SIZING THEMSELVES IN TERMS OF ACTION AND ACTIVITIES ENGAGED IN AND UNITS THEY'VE CREATED AND THOSE TREND LINES START IN THE LATE 1980s.

THEY COINCIDE PERFECTLY WITH THE WAR ON DRUGS.

FIRST RONALD REAGAN'S WAR ON DRUGS, THEN GEORGE BUSH I WAR ON DRUGS AND CONTINUED THROUGH THE CLINTON YEARS IN AN INTENSE WAY AS WELL.

SO THAT'S WHERE THE MOST INTENSE MILITARIZATION TOOK PLACE.

AND THEN-- >> Renee: WHAT DO YOU MEAN ABOUT I THAT?

WE ARE SO USED TO SAYING IT.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN, THE MILITARIZATION OF POLICE?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND THE REASON IT'S IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE WE TEND TO THINK OF MILITARIZATION AS ONLY THE MATERIAL GOODS.

HOW MANY ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER DOZEN THEY HAVE.

DO THEY LOOK LIKE CYBORG 21st CENTURY WARRIORS?

THAT'S AN INDICATION OF MILITARIZATION AND THOSE ARE INDICATIONS OF MILITARIZATION.

IT'S THE MATERIAL DIMENSION, BUT THEN IT'S ALSO VERY IMPORTANTLY, THE CULTURAL DIMENSION.

WHAT KIND OF TRAINING ARE THEY GETTING?

DO THEY HAVE X MILITARY SPECIAL OPERATIONS PEOPLE COMING IN AND TRAINING THEM?

WE FOUND IN OUR RESEARCH THAT 50% OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS HAVE MILITARY SPECIAL OPERATION IS ACTIVE DUTY PERSONNEL TRAINING THEM SO THAT'S A DIRECT CULTURAL LINK BETWEEN THE U.S. MILITARY AND THE POLICE.

>> Renee: SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT.

>> YEAH, AND OF COURSE THIS IS NO NO WAY A CRITICISM OF THE MILITARY, BUT THE POLICE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE MILITARY.

THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO THINK ABOUT THE PEOPLE THEY'RE SERVING IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN THEY THINK ABOUT THE MILITARY THINKS ABOUT WHEN THEY'RE OCCUPYING A TERRITORY: THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE PROTECTING AND SERVING PEOPLE, NOT WAGING WAR SO IT'S THAT CULTURAL DIMENSION OF MILITARIZATION THAT IS PARTICULARLY DAMAGING FOR COMMUNITIES AND WOULD I ARGUE FOR THE POLICE THEMSELVES AS WELL.

>> Renee: WHY IS IT DANK DANGEROUS FOR THE POLICE?

>> IT PUTS THEM IN AN POSITION AND A MIND SET TO DO THINGS THAT ARE REALLY RISKY, TO ENGAGE IN DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR THAT THEY PROBABLY NORMALLY WOULD NOT.

NO KNOCK DRUG RAIDS ARE A GREAT EXAMPLE.

WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD THINK THAT IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO TAKE 15 OFFICERS AND BUT INTO A PRIVATE RESIDENCE AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF RAPID EYE MOVEMENT SLEEP AND TRY TO PULL THEM OUT OF BED AND HOPE THAT PEOPLE AREN'T SHOOTING AT THEM NOT BECAUSE THEY POTENTIALLY MURDERED SOMEBODY OR POTENTIAL RAPISTS, BUT BECAUSE THEY ENGAGED IN LOW LEVEL DRUG DEALING: LOTS OF FOLKS IN POLICING ADAMANTLY DISAGREE WITH THAT, INCLUDING A LOT IN THE SWAT COMMUNITY.

BUT IT'S THE MILITARIZED MIND SET THAT SAYS NO, THAT'S A REASONABLE THING TO DO AND THAT'S WHERE THEY CAN PUT THEMSELVES IN TROUBLE.

IT ALSO PUTS THEM IN AN ADVERSARIAL MIND SET WITH THE PUBLIC.

THEY PULL SOMEBODY OVER AND THEY'RE GOING HAVE A BAD ATTITUDE.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE AN ATTITUDE LIKE YOU ARE A RISK.

YOU ARE A PROBLEM.

YOU ARE A DANGER POTENTIAL DANGER AND THE COMMUNITY MEMBER MIGHT COME BACK WITH THAT SAME ATTITUDE.

WHY ARE YOU ACTING LIKE THIS?

THAT IMMEDIATELY CREATES ANTAGONISTIC CONFLICT THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE THERE.

>> Renee: WE SAW THAT PLAY OUT IN THE PROTESTS IN THE SUMMER OF 2020 WHERE POLICE WERE OUTFITTED IN TACTICAL GEAR AND THERE WERE SOME TIMES WHEN THEY NEEDED IT.

NOT FOR THE PROTESTORS BUT THE RIOTERS WHO WERE A SEPARATE BUNCH OF FOLKS FROM THE PEACEFUL PROTESTORS BUT THEY WERE OUTFITTED AND THEN YOU HAD NATIONAL GUARD IN AND ALL OF THESE CONFLUENCE OF ALL THIS PRESENCEMENT IT DID ANYTHING BUT DEESCALATE ALREADY TENSE SITUATIONS AND EMOTIONS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT INTENSELY MILITARIZED PRESENCE AND IT HAPPENED IN A BIG WAY AT FERGUSON, MISSOURI, AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY FERGUSON, MISSOURI BLEW UP IN TERMS OF THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION WHAT IS WRONG WITH POLICING.

WE SAW A POLICE OFFICER SITTING ON TOP OF AN ARMORED TANK SCANNING THE CROWD, PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED.

INTERESTINGLY THE BLACK COMMUNITY WASN'T SHOCKED BECAUSE, UNFORTUNATELY THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT LEVEL OF POLICE MILITARIZATION A LOT BUT IT DID SHOCK THE REST OF THE NATION AND ONE OF THE UNIONS WHY THE HIGHLY MILITARIZED RESPONSE THE POLICE HAVE USED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY POST BREONNA TAYLOR AND GEORGE FLOYD HAS REALLY ROCKED PEOPLE.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS THE OPINION POLLS ARE SHOWING 70 AND 80th PERCENTILE IN FAVOR OF MAJOR POLICE REFORMS.

>> Renee: AND WHAT WOULD A POLICE REFORM PACKAGE LOOK LIKE?

I GUESS YOU START THAT WITH THE FEDERAL LEVEL?

IS THAT WHERE IT HAS TO START OR SHOULD STATES TAKE IT ON THEMSELVES ON TO REFORM WHAT THEY THINK NEEDS TO BE REFORMED?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS MOST DIFFICULT ABOUT THE U.S. POLICE SYSTEM WE HAVE 18,000 DIFFERENT POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND THAT REQUIRES EVERY ONE OF THE LOCAL JURISDICTIONS AND/OR STATE JURISDICTION TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OPERATIONS AND IT'S REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN DO A FEW THINGS BUT NOT A LOT.

STATE LEGISLATORS CAN CERTAINLY PASS THINGS LIKE A BAN ON NO KNOCK DRUG RAIDS.

PUT IN PLACE SOME TRAINING STANDARDS AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF THINGS.

>> Renee: CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARDS MAYBE.

>> MANDATE CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARDS, ABSOLUTELY.

CREATE BETTER SYSTEMS OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

THERE IS A WHOLE SLEW OF THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE, BUT IT HAS TO BE DONE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

IN THE MOST DIRECTED WAY IT HAS TO BE DONE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

>> Renee: IN THE MINUTE AND 45 SECONDS REMAINING, WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OR BEGINNING OF THE TRIAL AGAINST DERRICK SHOVIN, THE OFFICER ACCUSED WELL, HE HAD HIS KNEE ON THE NECK OF GEORGE FLOYD AND WHETHER OR NOT WHETHER OR NOT HE CAUSED HIS DEATH.

IF THERE IS NOT A CONVICTION IN THIS CASE, WHAT DO YOU FEAR ABOUT THE RESPONSE OF NOT JUST MINNESOTA BUT THE NATION?

AFTER FERGUSON, MISSOURI, THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE AND THEIR COMMISSION SPENT MANY HOURS WITH ME ON THE PHONE TALKING ABOUT VARIOUS ISSUES AND ONE OF THE REASONS THEY STOPPED TALKING TO ME WAS I SAID CLEAR AND UNEQUIVOCALLY, IF BIG THINGS DON'T CHANGE, WE ARE GOING TO SEE MUCH MORE THAN FERGUSON MOSCOWS IN A FEW YEARS AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION FAILED TO PUT IN ANYTHING BIG.

THEY DID A LOT OF PERFORMATIVE POLITICS AND I'M AFRAID THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING NOW AND IF THE NATION AND PEOPLE THAT ARE IN A LOT OF PAIN WATCH CHAUVIN NOT GET CONVICTED, I THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF PAIN AND AND DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES OUT IN THE STREETS AGAIN.

>> Renee: WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK AROUND THAT TIME.

JUST TO DISSECT WHERE WE GO FROM HERE REGARDLESS OF THE OUTCOME OF THAT PARTICULAR CASE.

THANK YOU.

IT HAS BEEN A PLEASURE HAVING YOU ON AND I'VE LEARNED A LOT JUST IN THESE 28 MINUTES.

I HOPE HAVE YOU, TOO, AT HOME.

REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW OUR PROGRAM ONLINE AT KET.ORG/CONNECTIONS AND PODCAST AND YOU CAN FOLLOW ME ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

IN THE MEANTIME UNTIL I SEE YOU AGAIN, TAKE REALLY GOOD CARE.