Nevada is making national headlines as some of its counties prepare to hand count ballots this election.

We speak with one of those counties and the Secretary of State's Office this week on Nevada Week.

♪♪♪ Support for Nevada Week is provided by Senator William H. Hernstadt.

Welcome to Nevada Week.

I'm Amber Renee Dixon.

Concerns of widespread voter fraud in 2020 despite no evidence of it led some Nevada counties to question their voting machines and turn to hand counting ballots.

In response, the Nevada Secretary of State's Office recently outlined temporary rules for the counties that do decide to utilize hand counting as their primary method of tabulating votes.

The issue of human error in hand counting is one of several topics Nevada Week discussed with Deputy Secretary of State for Elections, Mark Wlaschin.

(Mark Wlaschin) The temporary regulations strictly apply just to a jurisdiction that only decides to go forward with hand counting and not the use of machines?

Because as you said and then highlighted, the human error piece is something that we have to acknowledge.

You know, historically, it's hard to stare at these little bubbles and be accurate.

You know, when you look at what a machine can do-- Now, there's a tiny little dot on the ballot.

It will detect that in a way that simply people can't, especially five, six, seven hours into a hand count tabulation or, you know, the seventh hour of their tenth day of doing so.

-Well, and there was an aspect of the original plan that had a maximum of 20 ballots per batch to be counted.

You increased that to 50.

Why did you think that was appropriate?

-It may help and if it's okay, I could describe the process as it is, you know, from a big picture.

-Yes, please.

-The way we've heard in the best practice that we adopted based on the Nevada Revised Statutes was ultimately to have four individuals involved in the process.

You have a reading clerk who has the ballot in front of them; you have a verification clerk, an individual who's standing watching the individual read over it to make sure that they're being accurate; and then you have two tally clerks sitting at the table.

The regulations say at least these four.

So that if there was a third tally clerk, for example, that would be acceptable too.

The idea is that as an individual, the reading clerk goes down the entire length of that ballot, through as many as, you know, 15, 20, 25 different races.

As they're calling out, you know, "The first race, Candidate Smith," the two tally clerks are marking on their tally sheets the appropriate ballot cast.

And then they just essentially go down the list.

The idea is that after five votes are cast for an individual-- So let's say Race No.

1, Candidate A.

As soon as they say, Okay, Candidate A, the idea is that the tally clerk would go, Oh, that's the fifth one, simply so that the two tally clerks could quickly communicate to each other to make sure they're still on the same page and staying accurate as they go through.

If there's a discrepancy by only limiting it to 20 at a batch, you would just go back through, start over again with those 20, and then be able to, again, find that discrepancy before continuing on.

We had heard, again, through our discussions with other jurisdictions that 20 was about the sweet spot.

There are some that use more; there are some that use less.

Part of the reason we shifted to 50 per batch was simply so that it lined up with the amount of ballots that are typically put into a tally machine.

The idea being that tally machines can provide a report based on a batch.

The batch is 50 because it makes sense to have the maximum used in a batch at one time.

If you have then 50-- up to 50, that is also acceptable so that you could conceivably from an audit standpoint have 50 run through the machine and then have individuals tally 50.

And that way, again, it's two batches.

You could see what was the-- see the results from the individuals and compare them directly to the machines without having to do any conversion-type issues or potentially slow the process.

But again, we did say "up to" so that if an election official chooses to stick to 20, that's acceptable as well.

-And there will be counties who are doing that simultaneous process of tabulating via machine and then hand counting.

But as you made that distinction, which is important, if it is not their primary method, hand counting, if that is not the primary method, they are not subjected to the regulations that the State handed down.

Why did you choose to not impose your regulations on those counties as well?

-Yes, ma'am.

In part because there was no legal authority to do so.

In part because the use of those machines-- The county is going to use the machines as the primary method for tabulation.

Then, from a state point of view from the concerns that were raised about timeliness, compliance with the statutory deadlines, all of those go away as long as there's a machine that we know that, again, will provide that accurate result up front.

But again, right, there's a number of voters across the state who have concerns about the machines, and this essentially enables the clerks to have a process or procedure even in that sort of dual machine plus human counting process where now voters in the counties can come in and essentially audit the machines and, yeah, see that the machines are accurate and, again, hopefully regain confidence in the process and procedures and the equipment used to administer our elections.

-You brought up two points: the delays that may come along with hand counting all of the votes.

What happens if a county is not able to meet the deadline of when it is supposed to have all those votes hand counted?

-As long as they're using a machine first, again, the timelines will be met without any issue.

-If not though?

-If they don't use a machine-- Yes, ma'am.

And that's part of, you I'm sure noticed in the regulations that were adopted, there's a number of required reports and documents that we've asked for.

Specifically, one of them is to address the contingencies where if, you know-- For example, we have a statute that says the Board of County Commissioners or board of supervisors must canvass the vote no later than the 10th day after the election.

Using this coming general election, for example, if there were a county that said, we're not using machines, we just wish to conduct a hand count tabulation, there's a requirement for this contingency plan because I don't want them to get to the night of the 17th to then wonder what happens if we're not going to make the deadline.

What happens if we can't?

We're encouraging them and requiring the development of this plan to encourage that conversation with the District Attorney in advance and the commissioners to understand the full scope of possibilities that could emerge from missing those timelines.

Because you're right, this is-- It's something kind of unique, kind of crossing the rubicon, so to speak, in a way that hasn't happened here in the state before.

And I will tell you, not one of our county election officials is interested in getting to that point.

So that is part of the concern.

But certainly, when we provided these regulations, it provides a template.

It's scalable.

We talked about a team before, but there I anticipate will be numerous teams of four to meet the required timelines.

Yes, that is certainly a concern.

-Who are these people, this team of four?

-They are voters in the individual counties.

Again, we encourage and require, as practicable, bipartisan or multipartisan teams.

But they would be individuals from within the counties that conduct the hand counts.

-And that is important because I think there are concerns about subversion attempts by people who are hand counting these votes or even the people who are overseeing some of the elections.

Your thoughts on having a person oversee an election who does not believe that the 2020 results were true?

-You know, I'll tell you that my experience with our 17 elected and appointed election officials at the county level, the clerks and registrars, has truly been inspiring over the last two years.

I was appointed as the Deputy for Elections in October of '20.

And since then, even with the-- There's been some turnover, as I'm sure you're aware of at the county levels and here at the state.

And not even with the clerks and registrars but also with their staff members across the board, everyone is committed to and determined to provide Nevadans with their abilities to vote in free and fair elections, period.

Are there individuals who maybe have questions about the 2020 election process?

Perhaps.

I will tell you the election officials who were here during 2020 and who administered that election, again, are competent in the processes and procedures.

So really, I don't spend as much time looking backwards now at this point as we do, as on focusing going forward for any election official.

And that's the easiest question, the best softball you can ask them.

Is it a complex process?

Absolutely.

Title 24, as we refer to the nine chapters of statutes, plus nine chapters of regulation, plus numerous federal laws, all of these have to be applied and executed and enforced to make an election happen.

That's no small feat.

It truly is a team sport to review, to remind each other, to help out, to make sure that all of the required preelection audits, the timelines to order ballots, to get machines set up, to arrange for and hire appropriate numbers of poll workers, to train the poll workers to make sure that they're trained and equipped to do their jobs.

This is a very complex process.

And so when someone asks questions about, you know, previous election cycles, I find that the most questions that you get are typically from individuals who aren't directly involved in the process.

But so again, for someone to administer or even, you know, volunteer at a polling location who had questions or concerns about previous election cycles, any previous election cycle, frankly, I welcome it.

Because when you see and you're in the mix and you see the statutes that we have to follow--that we don't pick and choose the laws we follow.

We don't pick and choose the regulations we obey and enforce and apply--then you realize how much security, how much redundancy there is to make sure the process is free and fair and that every single legal vote cast is counted appropriately.

-How many counties are you aware of right now that intend to do only hand counting?

-Only hand counting?

So far, none.

There's been some discussion about possibly machine as primary and then hand count audits, but as we currently stand at the best of my understanding, no counties in Nevada are going to rely purely on hand count tabulations during the 2022 election cycle.

-All right.

So then if we add that using hand counting as a secondary method or parallel method, what happens if the hand counting result shows a different outcome of a contest than the tabulation or the machine method?

-It's an excellent question as well.

And as it currently stands, also again, the machine count will be the one that's used for the certification process.

But again, I would anticipate if a machine has one result and the human hand count has another, the intent by keeping those batches to 50 or less is specifically so that they can address those discrepancies and identify where the concerns are.

And I suspect when that happens, and I anticipate it will, it will go back to a, you know, a bit of a human error.

Again, they're well-intentioned individuals.

But if you haven't stared at little circles or done anything like that for eight hours continuously, it can be a bit much and human error does happen.

Which is why again, as long as we have a mechanical device as the backup and really as primary, I don't think there will be any issues.

And truly, even if the hand count takes months to go through at some point-- "Months" is probably a bit extreme, but more than a couple of days --again, I don't think voters have to be worried or concerned about those sorts of issues.

-All right.

Last question.

If I understand correctly, these are regulations for this election only.

They're temporary.

Are there plans to make them permanent?

-Yes, absolutely.

These are our temporary regulations, and they're good through November 1st of 2023, unless we put them through the permanent regulatory process, which is something I anticipate the Office of the Secretary of State doing.

Even if there's no future discussion, even if there's no intent to have a hand count pure tabulations during the 2023 cycle, which by the way, again, there's no scheduled elections, but there may be a recall election, maybe a special election.

There's always, there's reasons for that in the interim years.

The intent is to put these through the permanent regulatory process as we continue to learn from those individuals that do hand count audits during this cycle and continue to ask my counterparts across the country for continued improvement.

-Mark Wlaschin, thank you for your time.

-It's my pleasure.

Thank you for having me on.

-And following that interview, Nevada Week learned that the Progressive Leadership Alliance of Nevada filed a lawsuit against the Nevada Secretary of State, challenging its regulations regarding the hand counting of ballots.

Here now to discuss his county's plan to utilize hand counting this election is Interim Nye County Clerk Mark Kampf.

And to explain her organization's opposition to the hand counting of votes is Emily Persaud-Zamora, Executive Director of Silver State Voices.

Thank you both for sharing your time with Nevada Week.

First off, some background as to why you are Interim County Clerk in Nye County, Mark.

There are some Nye County voters who distrust the voting machines enough so that the Nye County Commission voted to recommend hand counting of ballots.

The County Clerk at the time, longtime Nye County Clerk Sam Merlino at the time defended the machines, talking about the checks and balances that are in place to ensure their accuracy, but ultimately told PBS, quote, It just made me feel helpless, end quote, and so she decided to resign.

And that is when you were made Interim Nye County Clerk.

You are implementing not only, not solely hand counting of votes, but a little bit different of a process.

Why did you go that route, and what is your process?

(Mark Kampf) Well, of course, in any kind of new process or system implementation--particularly my background is in internal controls and forensic audit--you want to do a parallel process as you make a transition to a new system.

I felt that it's important to make sure that, of course as the new clerk, I want to deliver the results on time and on schedule, like I always have in my whole career, and to do a test to make sure that the hand count process works.

-So how will that be?

It will be hand counting in addition to-- What is the other method you're using?

-Well, we're going to be using the tabulation process that we have been using since the universal mail-in ballot process in Nevada.

In the primary election, 63% of the ballots were paper ballots.

They came in through the mail, and they were hand counted through the tabulation.

What we're doing is adding on that additional 37% and having the voters use the same paper ballot that they would fill out at home, and they're gonna fill it out in a public place in the poll location.

-So all paper ballots.

And that tabulation, that is a machine, correct?

-Yes, it is.

-Okay.

Emily, your organization, part of its mission is to advance, quote, proactive election policy.

What do you think so far of what you've heard about Nye County's plan?

(Emily Persaud-Zamora) Well, thank you first and foremost for having me today.

You know, I think that we are, you know, clearly disappointed in the actions that Nye County's County Commission, of going for paper ballots.

I think, you know, clearly for us, that is not what we would prefer to have in the state of Nevada.

We do commend the registrar, making the actions of both, doing hand counting and tabulation.

But ultimately, we don't think that it is a process that is the most equitable for the state of Nevada.

-There is an issue when you talk about equitability with making this accessible for disabled voters.

A paper ballot may not be appropriate for all voters, and certain voters with disabilities.

How have you addressed that concern?

-We're going to still use some of the machines that are adapted for those with special needs, those that may be blind, someone who maybe have other disabilities that will not allow them to vote.

So we're gonna have a machine in each location similar to what we had in the past.

And it's kind of late in the process to make any major changes, because I had three months to go from the time I was appointed to the-- to the election.

So I wanted to make sure that we provided that accessibility in this interim phase and through the test process.

-And that's great.

But there are so many different issues as to why that's not an equitable process, right?

Because if every other voter is entering the polling location, and that is voting just via paper ballot, we are clearly distinguishing who does have a disability and who does not have a disability.

Because, therefore, then everybody that does have a disability has to go use the voting machine.

And then it is not a secret ballot, in essence, because we're able-- If somebody is monitoring the polling location, they're able to see, okay, maybe in this particular precinct, there are only five voters that came in and used this particular machine.

And they're able to see that these are the five individuals that voted.

-Any response to that?

-Those machines are not like the rest of the machines, and so that process has been going on already.

In fact, you said that you are concerned about the paper ballots.

Paper ballots are being used for 63% already.

So we're continuing a process that's already in place.

In addition, those machines have unique attachments to them.

So they're quite obvious, and they've been visible all along.

So there is nothing that is changing from that process.

-But I actually wasn't talking about the machines.

And I think you're really not paying attention to the point of this sense that voting is something that is a right, but it's also something that's supposed to be private.

And when you are clearly distinguishing the difference between folks who are disabled and folks who are not disabled, that's not allowing a certain community to be able to cast their ballot in a secure manner.

And it's really violating their privacy.

-Anything you want to add?

I do kind of want to move on to a different topic.

-No.

I think we've got that covered.

-Okay.

So again, because you're doing parallel process, you are not subject to the state's regulations.

But part of the regulations for the state were about the makeup of the hand counting team not all being from the same political party.

Do you have anything similar as far as your requirements?

-Definitely.

And matter of fact, I've been reaching out to various different organizations within the community to ask them to identify individuals from different parties.

Matter of fact, I'd appreciate if your organization would-- -We'd love to.

- --provide some volunteers for the process.

Looking forward to that because I think there's a part to play with everyone in this.

And this is really about citizen engagement, getting citizens more involved in the process, not just really relegating it to the Clerk's Office.

And I think you'll find that the process we have is very much similar to what Mark has, and we've communicated along this process.

I see it as teamwork with the Secretary of State, and we're going to be running a test to see how it works in a real live situation.

-Emily, for Nevada counties that may be considering doing only hand counting, what is your biggest concern?

-I think that one of the largest concerns-- There are several, right?

There's the ability to count ballots in an accurate manner.

There haven't been-- There's been some studies around hand counting, and there are studies that show that there is about a 2% potential disconnect in hand counting compared to other types of counting.

And I think that, especially in smaller counties, that we're potentially talking about giving the wrong results in a race.

In Clark County in 2020, there was the County Commission District C that was decided by 10 votes, and that's a huge county.

What if we're talking about, you know, Esmeralda County?

That could be something that would potentially delay results.

I think that's a really big concern that we have, because there are the deadlines that the state has to meet.

-And what happens when there is a delay?

-Well, I think that it creates a level of uncertainty, right, in the process.

And, look, Mark and his team, all of the registrar's, they have an impossible job.

And I think that that's something that, you know-- There's the pressure, right, of voters not really believing in the process.

And then it also gives power to political candidates to create a narrative that is not really there.

-Mark, what happens if you have a different outcome from the hand counting than what the tabulation machine shows, a different contest outcome?

What is your plan, then?

-Well, of course, as Mark had said, because we're breaking it down into smaller batches, we'll be able to research those batches that are different.

Part of the process will be to compare those as we're going along and to make sure that we're staying in lockstep.

I don't share the same concerns, because we've done some tests internally to see how long it takes to do a batch of 50 ballots.

And we've thrown in some real problem ballots in there to see how it works.

And I believe that with the size of the staff we've got, we'll be able to complete our hand count by Election Day.

If not, having maybe a few stragglers.

No different than you have with the ballots coming in late that are postmarked as of the Election Day.

So we've really done some testing on this, and my results are encouraging.

The team is supportive of the process.

And we've identified where the differences can occur, which is largely in the adjudication of ballots that have been marked in error.

And we're working to make sure that we have a clear process that matches the same kind of adjudication, as Mark indicated, in the reading of the ballot and how it's done.

-For some context, you were talking about Esmeralda County, Nevada's least populated county.

And it took them seven hours for 317 ballots cast to be counted, reportedly.

In the primary in Nye County, you received 12,450 ballots cast.

That's a lot of work to be done.

But you're relying on a lot of paper ballots via mail, because a lot of people are voting by mail now than compared to in the past.

-Yeah, the-- I'm assuming that if we have an 80% turnout in Nye County, that'll be an increase from the 74% in the 2020 General Election.

And with that, that would be 26,000 ballots.

That's 520 batches.

That means if I have a team of eight people counting the batches every single day, they only need to count five batches as a team.

We've gotten it down to a batch being able to be counted in 18 minutes.

-Mark, very quickly.

We're running out of time.

If the process goes well for you this election, do you plan on perhaps doing only hand counting in the future?

-I would like to see that because I believe that we can show the public in a complete transparency that hand counting can work, and it will save the county considerable amounts of money in cost of operation.

-I would argue differently.

You know, studies have shown that on the front end, it does; but on the back end, it's a lot more cost-- a lot more cost.

So I do think that what's really important is that the 2023 legislative session is right around the corner, and hopefully the Nevada Legislature will be taking these issues into account.

-Thank you so much for taking the time for Nevada Week.

Thank you for joining us.

And for any of the resources mentioned during this discussion, including a link to the Secretary of State's website, go to vegaspbs.org/nevadaweek.

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