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(grandiose music) - [Narrator] Wyoming PBS, Wyoming Public Media, and Central Wyoming College present Election 2022, The Republican Gubernatorial Primary Debate, live from the Robert A. Peck Art Center Theater on the campus of Central Wyoming college.

- Good evening and welcome to the Wyoming '22 primary election gubernatorial debate for the Republicans, live from Central Wyoming college here in Riverton, Wyoming.

I'm Craig Blumenshine and I'll serve as moderator for tonight's debate.

I want to know that this debate is being broadcast live on the Wyoming PBS network and also is being played live on Wyoming Public Media.

It is also being streamed live on our social media platforms.

As we begin this evening, I wanna let our viewers know that all four Republican candidates in the Wyoming gubernatorial race were invited to be with us this evening.

Three of those four candidates chose to come and be here.

To my left is Dr. Rex Rammell.

Mr. Brent Bien is in the middle, or Bien, excuse me.

And Governor Mark Gordon is on my far left.

Thank you candidates for being here this evening.

We have three panelists who will be with us tonight asking questions of the candidates and I'd like to introduce them to you now.

Steve Peck on my far right, the longtime publisher of the Ranger Newspaper in Riverton and the current Wyoming PBS senior public affairs producer.

In the middle of the panelist row is, (clears throat) excuse me, Jasmine Hall.

She is a state government reporter for the Wyoming Tribune Eagle based in Cheyenne.

And to her left is Maggie Mullen, the state government and politics reporter for WyoFile.

Every candidate will get an opportunity to answer every question in the debate this evening in what we hope will be a thoughtful civil discussion.

Candidates have not seen the questions that they'll be asked and we randomly drew that the order that they are appearing on stage just a few moments ago.

The candidates have been briefed and have accepted the rules for tonight's debate.

As I told the candidates just a few moments ago, as I've told the candidates in past debates, the first amendment allows for good, thoughtful and civil discourse.

We expect that in this debate this evening, in fact, we'll demand it.

If the candidates are ready and if the panelists are ready, let's begin the debate this evening, Steve Peck will ask the first question of Dr. Rammell.

- Candidates, good evening.

When I got my driver's license in the 1970s, the price of a gallon of gas was 50 cents.

I thought it was too high.

In the decades since, I never remember a time when the general public was satisfied with what a gallon of gasoline costs.

And today it's 10 times that.

But by some measures, Wyoming's economy is benefiting from the sky high price of petroleum, even as drivers grumble.

What is a fair price for a gallon of gas and can a governor really do anything to influence it?

- Well, I think, 50 cents is probably pretty good.

Yes, the governor can do something.

The governor can advocate for a different energy policy.

This is the energy state.

And we supply this country with a lot of energy, but we need a governor that will stand strong on energy.

If someone would push back against president Biden, who I believe is responsible for this gas price hike along with inflation, I believe, that maybe we could get this under control, but if we continue to let the federal government dictate our policies.

Just today, Senator Schumer and Senator Manchin agreed to add another 350 billion to the clean energy agenda.

This is driving our prices high.

Our truckers are having a hard time keeping up.

Cost of everything and going up.

We've gotta stand up and fight against the clean energy movement.

I am a fossil fuel advocate and I do not support the clean energy agenda.

I think, is wrong for the United States.

And I'll do everything I could to stop.

Again, to stop it.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell, thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- Well, I'd like to see the prices go back to where I was when I was in college here at UDub about a dollar a gallon.

I think, that would be fantastic.

But I do agree in some sense, I do think that we need to stand up against this federal energy policy, because we are the Saudi Arabia of America.

We are here in Wyoming.

I do believe that it's gonna be very difficult over the next couple of years, particularly with such an overreaching federal government.

But I do believe that we need to posture ourself for that to come.

And I think we need to do whatever we can here locally and in state to bring these folks in and take a look at the kind of the state taxes, whether it's severance, et cetera, on whether we can actually reduce those and see if we can actually bring these costs down, because we know that diesel runs America and we've gotta get these prices down.

But again, it's gonna be difficult with this overreaching federal government, but again, we've gotta posture better.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, first, let me just thank Brad Tyndall for allowing us to be here this evening, and thank you all for watching and for paying attention to this important debate.

As governor, I have led Republican governors from across this nation to talk about an all of the above energy strategy.

The first thing we did, which really started in that almost first month of the Biden administration was to say with 17 other Republican governors, you've gotta open up leasing on our federal lands.

You can't pause it and you've gotta open it up.

I've continued to push for that.

And I think that leadership is the reason why I'm now the president of the international organization of Oil and Gas Compact Commission, I'm sorry.

I followed Kevin Stitt in that capacity.

As a group of energy states, pushing as hard as we can to make sure that we not only open our federal lands, but that we're also able to develop those lands with the minimum of regulation.

And then two of the other things that are really important as we look at this, one is expanding refining capacity.

Wyoming used to have about 12 refineries.

We dropped to six and now we're at three.

We also need to make sure that all of our pipelines are working at capacity.

I continue to advocate for Wyoming as an all of the above energy state.

- [Craig] Thank you, governor.

Dr. Rammell, rebuttal, if you would like.

- No, thank you.

- [Craig] Okay, we'll move on to our second question from Jasmine Hall for Mr. Bien.

- Since the recent school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, government officials are reevaluating gun control in school safety in their states.

How do you plan to address gun violence in Wyoming and safety for students?

- Well, my first basis for everything is constitutionality.

The Second Amendment is very cut and dry that those rights shall not be infringed.

I believe that we need to look and make sure we do not have gun free zones.

We have a whole plethora of veterans around, that if we need to bring those in to arm them or whatever we need to do at least to protect our schools, I think, it's great.

I do think though that we need to promote a firearm ownership.

I really do.

I think we need to start this, particularly in the state of Wyoming, where it's such a big part of our culture, and we need to teach those values early.

Okay.

Just like we always have.

And then there's those indicators, we gotta take a look at this and see what's going on.

But we pride ourself on having very low gun violence across the state, and I think we need to do that, but so much of it is bringing up from a young age and make sure we instill those safety parameters all the way across the board.

Thank you.

- [Craig] Thank you, Mr. Bien.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, thank you for that question, Jasmine.

And you may remember that I've advocated for hardening our schools over the last several years.

I think it's important that our schools have all the security measures they possibly can.

I am a staunch Second Amendment, and it's a personal matter for us in our family.

So I don't think trying to have gun free zones is a good idea and I will fight against those.

It is absolutely important, I think, that we educate our kids how to use firearms, how to do that properly.

And I do believe we need to harden those schools.

I think, the other thing that really has been beneficial to Wyoming is that being a Republican and a conservative Republican at that, I believe, in government closest to the people.

And that means our local school board's making their own decisions.

So we've seen a variety of different schemes around the state and I believe that we should support those efforts any way we possibly can.

Thank you.

- [Craig] Governor, Thank you.

Dr. Rammell.

- Thank you.

I, too, am a staunch Second Amendment supporter, and I believe that Wyoming should be a sanctuary state for the Second Amendment, which means that anybody that qualifies for a gun should have one.

As far as our schools go, I think, that it's clear, America's becoming a violent place, and I think that we should take every measure to make sure that the Uvalde incident and others never happens in Wyoming.

I actually believe that we should have security people guarding our schools, and I would even support some kind of a metal detector, so that this never happens in Wyoming.

Not one time, we can't lose one child.

And so we need to have the ultimate security that we can and protect our kids while at the same time, making sure that the liberty of the people is protected and the Second Amendment rights are preserved.

- [Craig] Thank you, Dr. Rammell.

Mr. Bien, rebuttal if you'd like.

- No, thank you.

- [Craig] All right, we'll move along.

This question for Governor Gordon from Maggie Mullen.

- Thanks for being here tonight, candidates.

Two labor and delivery units have closed in Wyoming in the past year and more may close in the future as hospitals in the state are struggling.

To ensure Wyoming is a safe place to give birth, would you be in favor of subsidizing hospitals for the cost of childbirth?

And if not, what is your plan?

- Maggie, thank you for that question.

Obviously, Wyoming is a very family-oriented state and as a candidate, who's pro-life, I feel very strongly that we need to support mothers and children and families as they go forward.

Have some experience with hospital in Johnson County and I do believe that we were really struggling prior to COVID when we started to see a lot of federal money coming in.

We're now starting to see that money pull back, which means these hospitals are having to deal with that kind of issue again.

Here in Fremont County, you have local folks that have stepped up and said, let's build our own hospital.

Let's make sure we have the support behind it.

So I really do support having local involvement.

You passed the tax in Fremont County to help carry that hospital forward.

And I do believe that one of the things that my task force is looking at is how do we make hospitals more self-sufficient and how do we make sure that we have adequate funding for them over time?

- [Craig] Thank you, governor.

Dr. Rammell.

- Yes.

Thank you.

This is a difficult subject because there are a lot of people out there that are put into a situation where they really do need help.

But I'm a capitalist, and I believe the best way to solve most of Wyoming's problems is to create an environment where companies can be successful.

The biggest problem I have with most of the issues in Wyoming is federal control.

Education, healthcare, agriculture, fossil fuels, you name it.

The federal government has their hands in everything that we do and I think they're the source of the problem.

I wanna see Wyoming become sovereign.

I think, we have the wealth to do it.

I wanna see us become independent of the federal government and their mandates with healthcare, and I believe that we can solve these problems through good old capitalism.

- Thank you, Dr. Rammell.

Mr. Bien.

- Well, I'll tell you between healthcare and education, we know that makes up roughly 65 to 70% of our budget.

It's significant.

Before I go down the path of state allocation for anymore, I wanna do some auditing here to see exactly what's really going on.

I know there's issues out there.

My wife being a labor and delivery nurse for years and years, this hits home.

And I will tell you that community support is essential.

We have to have that support out there.

I think, that there's room out there for some sort of new parent type support across the state, but I think it's something that should be driven at the local level and tailored toward those communities, because we know that Wyoming's very desperate.

I mean, it's so big.

But it is one of those things that...

If the problems there, let's identify the problem, figure out what the problem is.

And then determine courses of actions or so solutions to fix it.

But I want to audit.

I wanna see exactly what's going on with this budgeting process first.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor, 30 more seconds if you'd like.

- Sure.

So there's a couple of things that really can be done fairly quickly.

One is we can bring more transparency and price comparison, which would be helpful.

And the second thing is because we're a very small state with a very small population, we have perhaps greater opportunities to do things on a statewide scale without having to worry about what the federal government does, and we can bring some stability to the whole process.

Thank you.

- Thank you, governor.

Candidates, just so you're aware, because there are three of you and three of our panelists, we're actually rotating the order that the panelists will ask you questions, so that each panelist doesn't always ask you a question.

So Jasmine now, Jasmine Hall will ask Dr. Rammell the next question.

- Former house speaker Tom Lubnau of Gillette quit the state party because of what he described in his resignation letter as the lack of integrity, toxicity and the move towards secrecy.

Many feel the governor is the party leader.

Did speaker Lubnau provide an accurate description of our state's Republican party currently?

- No, I don't think so.

I think, that there are people in the Republican party that would try to make it something that is not.

Republican party has a platform.

All of the counties get together and they submit their ideas on what the platform should be.

It's voted on at the state level.

And that's what forms the ideology behind the Republican party.

But there are Republicans out there or so-called Republicans that don't agree with the process.

And they think that because they don't agree with some of the planks in the platform that the party is corrupt when we stand strong on our principles.

I would welcome Mr. Lubnau and all of his people that think like he does to leave the Republican party, find the party that fits them.

If he doesn't like the planks and principles of the Republican party, then he should not be part of the Republican party.

That's where the friction's coming in.

These guys want to change what Republicans believe.

I don't think they should have that ability to do that.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell, thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- Well, he's entitled to his opinion.

What I will tell you is that the platform is strong.

It's strong across the state.

I do believe also that this is a leadership trait, and I do believe that the governor, as the default lead of the Republican party does set the tone.

We do know that we have splinters out there that do try to split the party.

And I think it's one of those things to where the party itself has to stand strong on the principles upon which it's based and with that leadership through the governor.

That's what I planned doing.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, thanks for that.

I think, my first convention was about 1976.

And at that point, there was a lot of concern about whether Ronald Reagan actually was gonna become president or not.

What I remember about Ronald Reagan was a remarkable ability to be able to grow the party.

As Haley Barbour says, partisan politics is about addition and multiplication.

Subtraction and division is a dead dog loser.

And what I remember about Ronald Reagan was that he was able to not only bring the party forward in a remarkable way and in a very important time in its history, but he also brought a number of democrats over that have stayed as Republicans.

And that's what really good leadership does.

I do believe that in time, over the several years, a lot of things have changed in the party.

We have times when we grow, times when we shrink, times when people feel strongly about Republican principles, but they are timeless.

Those are small government closest to the people, making sure that like we have a free market, a strong defense.

They are about integrity.

They are about personal responsibility and they are about rights.

I don't believe these principles can go wrong.

And I think that's why our party is strong.

- [Craig] Thank you, governor.

Dr. Rammell, 30 seconds if you'd like, yes.

- Thank you.

I do believe the governor is the lead on this, especially if he's a Republican governor.

And I think that Mark, he's dissented from several of the Republican party principles.

And I do believe that has caused people like Mr. Lubnau to be distracted.

If I'm the governor, we're gonna stay straight line down the middle of the platform and anybody that doesn't like it, they can leave.

- Thank you, Dr. Rammell.

All right, candidates, we're gonna proceed now to our lightning round.

We're gonna offer you one word or short phrased questions and you'll have then just 20 seconds to respond and they'll be no rebuttals during this round.

Steve Peck will ask the first lightning round topic to Governor Gordon.

- [Steve] Affordable housing.

- Very important for economic diversification in this state.

We need to make sure that we have places for our teachers and our snow plow drivers.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell.

- Not the role of government to provide housing for everybody.

Our role is to provide a sound economic base and let capitalism take over.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- I believe in deregulation and getting government out of the way.

And I believe, let the free market, all the contractors out there come in and build that affordable housing.

- Thank you, candidates.

The next lightning round topic from Jasmine Hall for Dr. Rammell.

- Suicide.

- Suicide.

An issue that has to be dealt with.

Wyoming is one of the top states in the nation and I believe that we have got to address this issue as soon as possible.

I would advocate that we do everything we can, I will personally get involved.

I do not know the answers, but it is an issue that I want to get involved with.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- Yes.

Where's the camera?

Yeah, anybody who's out there potentially contemplating this, dial 988 right away.

You'll get the help that you need.

I know that there is a way to push toward telehealth, but we do need that in-person attention right now, and to figure out what those indicators are across the state to preserve these folks.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- So suicide is something that we've worked on really from the beginning without that many resources.

I feel very strongly that we need to have our veterans helped, and we can do that with veteran to veteran organizations.

We've also helped stand up to 988 line, 24/7.

Please use it if you feel a crisis.

- [Craig] Thank you, candidates.

The next lightning round topic for Maggie Mullen for Mr. Bien.

- The youth exodus from the state.

The amount of young people leaving Wyoming.

- Oh, yes.

We have to get trades back in our schools.

We have to spawn that public private partnership around the state, figure out what those trades are that we need, 'cause we can train to these trades and give these young people hope to bring back in.

And so we can keep 'em here right in the state.

- [Craig] Dr. Gordon.

- So youth exodus is a problem.

We need to make sure that we have jobs here.

We need to make sure that people feel the future here.

And that's what this administration, my administration has been all about.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell.

- I think, that an unstable working market is what's prompting these people to leave.

If we can strengthen our economy and get it rolling, I think that these people want to stay.

- Thank you.

Candidates and panelists, we are ahead of schedule.

We're gonna add another round to our lightning round.

I wanna prepare everyone for that.

But the next lightning round topic from Maggie Mullen for Governor Gordon.

- [Maggie] Climate change.

- Climate change is an issue that we're gonna contend with whether it's the markets or whether it's for real, but the real opportunity lies in our ability to show leadership across the spectrum of energy to develop it all.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell.

- Governor Gordon was at a press conference right after the Joe Biden moratorium on fossil fuels and he said, quote, "climate change is a single most important issue on earth."

I think that is going way beyond what is really happening in Wyoming and that was a bad position to take.

- I'm gonna interrupt.

Mr. Gordon, would you like a response to that?

- No, that's okay.

Rex is entitled to his opinion.

- [Craig] Mr. Bien.

- I believe, climate change, there's a lot of unproven to it.

I do believe in market driven green energy, but not this heavily subsidized that we're doing right now.

I think, that we have to, again, posture ourself across the board, but again, market driven is where we need to be.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Jasmine Hall, the next lightning round topic for Dr. Rammell.

- Critical race theory.

- Absolutely not.

And if it costs us federal money, that's fine.

This is a hill, we cannot.

It's worth dying on.

We need to stand up against critical race theory and any other woke policies from the federal administration.

And I will do just that.

- [Craig] Thank you, Dr. Rammell.

Mr. Bien.

- Thank you.

Critical race theory, social emotional learning, diversity equity inclusion, any curricula that pits our children against each other because of race has no business in Wyoming.

And as the chief law enforcement officer, I will enforce federal anti-discrimination law and kick it out.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- So critical race theory does not need to be taught and is not being taught in Wyoming schools.

History should be taught and it should be broad-based.

- Thank you.

The next topic from Steve Peck for Mr. Bien.

- Maintaining University of Wyoming and community college enrollment.

- Maintain, I'm sorry.

- Strengthening university and community college enrollment.

- [Craig] Enrollments at our community colleges in the University of Wyoming.

- Okay.

- [Craig] That's the topic.

- You bet, you bet.

I believe, the University of Wyoming is a land grant university and we should get back to the basic teaching that it had.

And I think, if we do get back to the basics on engineering, nursing, those kind of things, I do think it will.

Right now, we rank 192 out of the nation.

We should strive to get toward the top.

And as we do get closer to the top, more people, more enrollers we'll have.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- This is what my Wyoming innovation partnership between the community college and the UW is all about, making sure it's responsive to the needs of students and making sure it's vital and also valuable for the businesses that these students can have careers with.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Dr. Rammell.

- Yes, I totally support these programs, but they have to be refined.

I think, they're a little bit diluted, maybe too broad.

And we need to focus our students in areas that help Wyoming.

So I think, I certainly support it, but we need to make some changes.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Another lighting round topic, here we go, from Maggie Mullen for Governor Gordon.

- The fentanyl crisis.

- [Mark] Could you repeat that?

- The fentanyl crisis.

- Ah.

So I've stood on the border with several Republican governors, with Governor Abbott and Governor Ducey, and we know what's going on in the border.

We need to strengthen our border.

We need to make sure fentanyl does not come here.

And people should be very aware that it's not just illegal drugs, it's also prescription drugs.

Be careful and let's make sure we have secure borders.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Dr. Rammell.

- Yes, I agree.

Fentanyl is a very addictive drug and we need to make sure that the people of Wyoming know that you cross a line if you start certainly distributing it.

There need to be tougher penalties for people that use fentanyl illegally.

- [Craig] Mr. Bien.

- We know that China is the number one producer of this.

We know that there are our primary adversary.

We also need to get these borders strengthened immediately.

We gotta do everything we can in Wyoming, particularly on our major corridors to clamp down on this and pursue this and do the legal action we need to.

- [Craig] Okay.

The next topic from Jasmine Hall for Dr. Rammell.

- Property taxes.

- Property taxes, they're out of control.

We have to see what we can do.

I have a plan.

Maybe I can get to it here in just a minute.

I would like to see all property tax eliminated on anyone that's 65 years or older.

I think we have the resources in the state to do that.

I think that would be a great move for the people of Wyoming.

- [Craig] Thank you, Dr. Rammell.

Mr. Bien.

- For property taxes, that's the number one thing across the state that's hurting people right now.

We need to set property taxes at acquisition value, particularly in primary residents.

And we need to leave it up to the legislature, whether it's 60 or 65 to eliminate property taxes altogether for seniors, 'cause we know that it costs a significant more amount of money to force these seniors into assisted living.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, property taxes, as everybody said, very, very important.

I've asked the legislature to look at ways that we can reduce property taxes, constitutionally.

And we've done this before by looking at ways that we can create a new class of property tax payer.

I need to get that done in this next legislature.

But I think we also need to remember that property taxes are because of assets going up.

- [Craig] Thank you.

This will be our final lightning round question from Steve Peck for Mr. Bien.

- Crossover voting in Wyoming primary elections.

- Crossover voting is something that shouldn't happen.

And if a bill comes up to eliminate crossover, I will sign it immediately.

I do believe in closed primary and that the other parties should not have any influence in the outcome of that primary election.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- I think Republicans ought to vote in Republican elections and Democrats ought to vote in Democrat elections.

I supported bills this last session to make sure that we would put crossover voting earlier in the year before we actually had primaries.

So it's very important, I think, that we eliminate that.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Dr. Rammell.

- Not important enough to advocate.

When president Trump called you, he wanted- - [Craig] Excuse me, please answer the topic.

- He wanted you to advocate against crossover voting and support runoffs and you didn't either.

- All right, candidates.

- May I I have a word?

- [Craig] You may.

Yes, you may.

- Since I had the conversation with President Trump, I made sure that he knew that we advocated for that, both in the Senate and in the house.

That's the reason it got to the house.

Thank you, Rex.

- All right.

We're gonna be finished now with our lightning round topics.

We're gonna zoom regular questions.

The first one is for Governor Gordon and that'll be from Steve Peck.

- A common rallying cry from the state's budget makers regarding public education in Wyoming is that we need more bang for the buck from our public education spending, but in recent years, a national evaluation conducted annually, ranks Wyoming's K-12 education among the top half dozen states in the nation.

Are Wyoming schools really underperforming?

- Steve, thanks for that question.

I think, Wyoming schools are doing pretty well.

We can do better.

That's why I set up the RIDE initiative, the Reimagining and Innovating Delivery of Education, which is going first to parents, not the consultants, and it's trying to get past that conversation we perennially have about how expensive is it, or you need to raise taxes.

We need to start with parents first.

We need to advocate for education at the local level.

And it is my belief that as we do that, and we've had listening sessions around the state, we're getting good ideas about how we can be more efficient, more streamlined.

We have more that we can do and I look forward to the conversation and the delivery of those results in the coming months.

- [Craig] Thank you, Governor Gordon.

Dr. Rammell.

- The Republican party has taken a hard position on this.

The Republicans believe in school choice and I do also.

I am straight down the middle on the Republican party platform and I think we have to do a whole educational reform movement.

All these listening groups, I don't see anything coming out of them.

You send it out to the public and nothing comes back.

We need somebody in leadership in the governor's office that understands education.

My wife, she taught fifth grade for a dozen years.

I've taught college.

Dr. Taylor Haynes, who is my senior advisor, he was on the board of trustees for University of Wyoming.

We need to take a hard look at what we're doing with education in this state.

We're spending a lot of money and we're not getting the results that we need.

I prefer some kind of voucher system, so that we could let the parents take charge and send their kids to a school that fits their needs.

So this is a big issue for me and I feel qualified to address it along with the help of my wife and Dr. Haynes, I think, that we can do more than create task force to talk about it.

We need some action.

- Thank you, Dr. Rammell.

Mr. Bien.

- Well, I tell you as Wyoming, we should settle for nothing less than number one.

I mean, we should be leading this nation in education, particularly K-12.

And I look at this very much as I'm very much a proponent of school choice.

We need to do that because anytime you bring competition into the system, two things happen.

You get better quality for lower price.

That's just the way it is.

I do believe in whether it's a voucher system or some sort of education savings account.

We know that Florida and Arizona do something very similar and it's great.

And again, this is one of those things to where...

Standardization is already there going into college if they're gonna do that, whether it's the ACT, SATG, GED, or ASVAB.

So it's one of those things, I think, that before I look at any allocation of additional money, I want audit, audit, audit to figure out where these these deficits are.

But I do believe that the path to number one is school choice and decentralizing a lot of that down to the county level.

- [Craig] Thank you, Mr. Bien.

Governor, you have 30 seconds for rebuttal if you like.

- Well, I signed the bill to started our effort towards charter schools.

I've also just signed the rules that we're gonna start hearing three charters coming forward, and we'll deal with those in the state loan and investment board.

This is an important step forward in school choice, but we also need to remember how important it is that our schools start from the ground up, not from the top down.

And that's why we've involved parents and businesses and communities in finding the way forward.

- [Craig] Governor, thank you very much.

Next question from Maggie Mullen for Dr. Rammell.

- A 2021 statewide report on missing and murdered indigenous people identified several reporting barriers on the Wind River Indian Reservation including a lack of trust in law enforcement and the judicial process.

What should the state do to gain that trust?

- Well, the reservation is a sovereign nation and they have to solve a lot of their own problems.

We can assist them the best we can, but this is really a problem for them.

But as governor, I would like to tell the tribes that we would do everything we could to help with the missing people.

But ultimately, it is a tribal issue.

I think, they need more authority and yes, they probably need more police power.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- Well, I do agree with that.

I think, they are a sovereign nation.

And as governor, I believe that I will do whatever I can to assist and we need to do that.

I mean, trust is such a huge issue.

And I tell you, I've learned so much about some of the issues that are on the reservation facing the reservation just in the last few months.

And it's significant.

So it is one of those things that we need to act, because we know that that a majority of those issues are federal.

But I do believe there's places where Wyoming can provide assistance and support for the Indian tribes.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, thanks.

The issue of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, which is now people, really bubbled up at the University of Wyoming at a conference that I went to, and the question was asked, how can the state help?

And I said, well, let's put together a group which has commissioned death study, which came up with the results that it had.

It's now been my effort to make sure the Department of the Interior actually steps forward and starts to do the things that they need to.

So far, and it's really kind of a little bit problematic when you have Secretary Helen who is not advocating for action on the reservation to do things like have police presence.

So we do not have cooperation from our federal partners on this issue.

And it's very upsetting.

What I am excited to say is that Chairman Dresser of the Northern Arapaho has really taken a leadership role across the nation, and has really brought attention to the work that Wyoming has done under my administration to make sure that we address this really terrible problem.

And it's also great to hear that people on the reservation say, we need to worry about people of all races in this issue as well, but we are gonna start with Native American people.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell, rebuttal if you'd like.

- Yes.

I think a lot of problems that happen on the reservation are the same for the rest of Wyoming.

There's too much federal control.

I'm an advocate to help the Native American tribes remove the Bureau of Indian Affairs from governing them.

I think, this would solve a lot of problems.

I think if they take responsibility away from the federal government so that they actually can make their own decisions, I think, that this would go a long ways for helping the tribes.

- Thank you, candidates, for more than halfway through the debate.

So we'll continue on and I wanna warn our panelists, each of you, I think, likely will get one additional question.

From Mr. Peck for Mr. Bien.

- Governor Gordon lifted Wyoming's declared state of emergency due to the coronavirus pandemic in March.

The virus is known to have infected more than a quarter of all Wyoming residents and killed nearly 2,000.

Should Wyoming be satisfied with the state's COVID response and are there things that ought to have been done differently or would be done differently in the future?

- No, I don't think we should be satisfied.

In fact, that's the number one reason that I am running.

I do believe that the governor under no case has the authority to restrict or take away constitutional rights from its citizens.

And this is one of those things to where we saw this narrative come down.

We saw this national pandemonium and global pandemonium come down and I think that drove a lot of the actions across our nation.

And I think, this is where, as a leader, you step back and you put everything in perspective.

It's just like, okay, what really needs to happen here?

And I can tell you that if a subsequent issue comes up, 'cause it may, it may, some sort of crisis, whatever it is, whether it's something like this or other, it's a matter of framing the problem, identifying the problem.

And then the number one requirement is how do we fix this problem without infringing upon people's personal constitutional liberties?

And bottom line is then I make the decision.

I stand by the decision.

I do not delegate that authority to any unelected individual.

And I centralize that with me, particularly if it has anything to do with constitutional liberties or the restrictions thereof.

But again, I understand that hindsight is 20/20.

I totally get that.

But I think we take the lessons learned and we bring 'em forward and then we reevaluate the way we do it next time.

- [Craig] Thank you, Mr. Bien.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, I'm proud of the fact that Wyoming is one of the five most open states.

And I remember after President Trump declared the emergency, March 13th, that it was an honor to stand shoulder to shoulder with other governors like Asa Hutchinson, Kristi Noem and others to push back against the restrictions that we were getting from Washington and from others that were pushing agendas.

I remember being attacked personally on national media because we were always trying to balance lives and livelihoods.

I'm proud of the fact that we never had a missed day of mining, whether it was in Campbell County or whether it was in the Southwest, we never lost a day.

I'm proud of the fact that people recovered quickly and were able to have banner years in sporting good shops and restaurants all over the place.

I'm proud of the fact that we were able to make sure that Yellowstone was opened when nobody said it could be opened two weeks ahead of when Montana was willing to do it.

And we pushed to make sure we had the supplies available to take care of those people that would be coming to the park should there be a crisis.

We made sure that nothing stupid, like a field hospital in Yellowstone was gonna be established.

Could we have done some things better?

Yeah, well, that's why we're reviewing it.

And I'm very proud though of the fact that we had one of two state fairs.

- [Craig] Governor, thank you.

Dr. Rammell.

- There would've been no review had I been the governor?

I'm a doctor of veterinary medicine.

I understand disease.

I understand the risks.

And what I would not have done is shut down businesses.

I think that is an abuse of power.

I don't think the governor has the authority to do that and I would never have done it in the first place.

And if there is another pandemic, I can guarantee you, there will be no mandates at all.

There will be advocations from the governor's office, all stand strong, and tell people what I think they should do.

Tell them to be careful.

Tell 'em how dangerous some of these things are, but I would never, never shut down anybody's business or take away their liberties.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- The only thing I'll say is is during that time, 6,200 small businesses across the state close their doors.

We know that.

And it was a very strong attack against civil liberties.

I will tell you that overall state's response to COVID, we ranked number 27, we need, again, folks to strive to always be number one and we should have encouraged those medications that work.

We knew that ivermectin hydroxychloroquine work.

So again, there's no way folks that I will ever shut down this state again.

And I already explain my review process on something if it comes up similar.

- Thank you, Mr. Bien.

We'll continue on with questions.

Jasmine Hall for governor Gordon.

- In February, Healthy Wyoming organized the largest rally ever held for Medicaid expansion in the spit state.

Despite considerable support from stakeholders to pass a Medicaid expansion bill, lawmakers did not during the 2022 budget session.

Would you, as governors, support efforts to expand Medicaid?

Why or why not?

- Jasmine, thank you for that.

I do not believe we should expand Medicaid.

I have been very concerned about what the potential costs will be when the federal government drops away from their support.

This is one of the biggest challenges.

So while we hear a lot about how great it's gonna be and how it's gonna reduce costs, et cetera, et cetera, we don't know what the eventual situation could mean for the state for our budget.

And as somebody who has to balance the budget by our constitution, I'm not willing to burden it with unknown potential costs down the road.

As I mentioned earlier, I do believe there are some alternatives that can meet some of the same needs and make sure that we have our people taken care of.

And I'd like to work on those over the next four years.

- [Craig] Thank you, governor.

Dr. Rammell.

- What happens when those federal checks stop coming?

That is the big question.

Everybody that's on Medicaid or even Medicare and social security, what happens when those checks stop coming?

Then what are they gonna do?

We need an independent people.

We need to be stand on our own.

We need to be looking into the future.

We need to take care of ourselves because the day will come when the federal checks will stop coming.

We are $30 trillion in debt, $30 trillion in debt.

That number cannot go up forever.

At some point, I believe, our federal government will become bankrupt.

And there's gonna be a lot of people that have been used to getting checks in the mail that are gonna say, where's my check?

Now, what do I do?

I want people to take a responsibility for their own lives.

I want them to be prepared for whatever situation and the last thing that people of Wyoming should do is get more addicted to federal money.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell, thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- I would not support and nor do I support any Medicaid expansion.

I do believe this is federal overreach.

I believe, it's a bait and switch.

I do think after those first couple of years, then we are on the hook for it.

And Obamacare was supposed to cover a lot of this and it just hasn't.

And this is where it comes back to where, okay, Wyoming given our population, we have the opportunity here in this state to create just a fantastic medical system, a healthcare system.

And I think we can do it, but I do believe we leave that to the private sector to do it and sit down and do it.

But I will not honor or support any sort of Medicaid expansion.

- Thank you.

Governor, 30 more seconds, if you would like.

Okay, we'll go on to the next question.

Maggie Mullen for Mr. Bien.

- Federal stimulus funds provided a short term infusion for some of Wyoming's financial woes and helped stabilize the budget.

But in the long term, what is your vision for Wyoming's economy in terms of its traditional reliance on fossil fuels versus diversifying the economy?

- First on accepting the COVID relief money, I think, as soon as that happened, we put a price tag on freedom, okay.

And I will tell you that freedom is priceless.

I think, it's one of those things that we have to look at... Our GDP shrunk roughly about 9% or so on that.

But I will tell you is that with the federal policy, energy policy right now, we have to reposture.

We have to posture Wyoming better.

And I am very much a proponent of transitioning to a cash based performance based system, because that's how we do our checkbook.

We can't write a check unless the money's in there.

So we've gotta start transitioning to that.

We need audits.

We need accountability across the board.

And I wanna see expenditure sheets.

I wanna see what's going on here, because that is one way that we will regain trust of the citizenry, but we have to do this yesterday.

We need to transition to this.

It was talked about about 30 years ago, and this is where we need to go with our budgeting.

And that's the way to do it is to get to there, because we have a significant amount of money that comes in, but we have been spoiled off of mineral royalties for years.

And we know that we may have to wean off of that.

So it is a matter of reposturing to do this different type of budgeting system.

Thank you.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, thank you.

I would have to say that I don't think it's versus, I think, it's and.

The conjunction and is really important to remember.

We can diversify the economy and we can do more to promote our legacy industries.

Right now, you have financial markets that are imposing all kinds of burdens on fossil fuel industry.

We're fighting back on that every way we possibly can.

One of the most important potential casualties is what happens with bonding for coal mines.

So one of the reasons I stood up with program to make sure that we could help bond, coal mines and provide opportunities for the future, so that we can continue to see coal produced and shipped and hopefully exported.

But we can expand into ag, we can expand in tourism.

We have a whole new financial sector that I helped to start up.

Very excited about the fact that we have a lot of people coming here, because now, with these dollars, we can expand broadband, we can make sure that our sewers and our water lines are working.

I can tell you horror stories about every little community around Wyoming that has clay pipe or wooden pipe, a small ones.

We can fix those things.

And those are tax dollars that we spend and our grandkids are spending.

I don't want 'em to go to New York.

I want 'em spent right here.

- [Craig] Thank you, governor.

Dr. Rammell.

- Yes.

Thank you.

I certainly accept any diversification that is through the mechanism of capitalism.

I do not believe in government subsidies to start industries.

I do not support the Wyoming Business Council picking and choosing winners.

I think that the state is a very wealthy state.

We have trillions and trillions of dollars of assets above and below the ground.

It boggles my mind that people would wanna move away from fossil fuels.

We are in a war for Wyoming's future.

We're at crossroads that we've never been at before.

The climate change people want to shut down the fossil fuel industry, not just in Wyoming, but the entire United States.

Therefore, I think, it is time for Wyoming to assert its 10th amendment rights and become sovereign over all its land and all its resources.

And I pledge as governor, I will do that on day one.

I have pledged throughout the state and the people that are supporting me.

Through the state police and the sheriffs, we will remove all the federal land managers from their offices, the BLM, the Forest Service, Park Service, US Fish and Wildlife Bureau Reclamation and others will be walked outta their offices on day one.

We have that sovereign, right?

We have never exercised it, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

This is a promise that I make to Wyoming.

We'll be sovereign for the first time in Wyoming history.

It will be historic.

And I am excited, if I become the governor, to do this for Wyoming.

- [Craig] Mr. Bien, you have 30 more seconds if you would like.

- Sure.

Well, I'd like to meet the judge first that's going to issue that warrant to remove these federal officials out of a federal building.

But I will say this is diversity, economic diversity.

The best way to do that is through deregulation and to make sure there's certainty in the market.

And certainly, what I'm regarding is to make sure these businesses know that we're not gonna shut down as a state again.

- Thank you, candidates.

We have time for one more question.

This will be a little shorter response time.

Mrs.

Amend, one minute please.

Okay.

Last question is asked by Steve Peck for Dr. Rammell.

- Wyoming's governor joins the two US senators and our US representative as among the most visible elected officials in the state.

One of those officials representative Liz Cheney has achieved great notoriety in recent months regarding her participation, the January 6th inquiry.

Is Liz Cheney a good Republican?

Is she courageous in this undertaking?

- No.

No.

I was Liz Cheney's veterinarian in Jackson Hole.

I knew Liz Cheney before Liz Cheney was known in Wyoming.

And I knew that she was gonna be trouble.

And I said, and it is proven true, Liz Cheney is not a patriot to Wyoming.

She didn't even live here.

She was from Virginia.

She spent most of her adult life.

If not, her entire adult life back in Virginia, until she decided to come back for a power grab.

We need people from Wyoming.

I was born and raised 12 miles from Yellowstone.

I am a western cowboy, deeply rooted in Wyoming and western politics.

That's what we need to be.

That's what we need to have for a governor.

Somebody that understands the west.

That is my greatest strength is that I have never left the west.

I didn't grow up in New York and I didn't go in the military.

I have been right here fighting Wyoming's battles.

I know the issues, and the things that I don't know, Dr. Taylor Haynes does.

Together, we would make a power team for the state of Wyoming.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell, thank you, Mr. Bien.

- Yeah, I do not agree with the way Congresswoman Cheney is doing this.

I do think that this is one of those things that we need to look at in depth, but I do not agree.

But as for my military service, I'm very proud of that.

For the nearly 30 years, I did that.

And I maintained my residency the entire time.

I got to see the world through a completely different lens and you see how fragile our freedom is and how fragile our constitutional Republic is when you see the horrors of the actual world, I guess, in combat environments.

So there's a lot of folks out there.

There's a lot of veterans out there who've seen this.

And there's a lot of folks who chose to do that.

I could have made a lot more money being an engineer as I came out of UDub, but I decided to do what I did as a Marine Corps officer, and I'm very proud of that service and for all the folks out there who have done the same.

My hat's off to them.

- [Craig] Thank you.

Governor Gordon.

- Well, thanks.

And for the folks here, my mom happened to be in New York when I was born.

She thought it was important I'd be with her, but our ranch has been in the family since 1947.

My dad moved here in 1932, and rodeo had got his first beer right here in Fremont County when he won the calf roping.

So Rex had just wanted to make sure that people understood I didn't grow up in New York.

- [Craig] Governor, excuse me.

The question is about representative change.

- Yeah.

I understand.

And I took a little bit of extra time because... And Steve, thanks for this.

Governors typically don't get involved in races and I'm gonna do that now.

When president Trump called me and said, please come to my rally.

I said, "I'm glad to meet you at the airport, President Trump, but I am not gonna take sides in this particular race."

- [Craig] Thank you.

Dr. Rammell, you have a little bit of time for rebuttal here.

- Yes.

Thank you.

What is a governor if he's not a leader?

If a governor doesn't stand up for what's right, what good is he?

He's got the bully pulpit.

He is a major player in state politics.

When we have somebody like Liz Cheney, who has disgraced the state of Wyoming, I, certainly, as governor, will take a position against her and anybody else like her.

I will get involved in local races all across the state of Wyoming.

I want a conservative legislature.

That's the way to do it.

I will be a leader.

I will advocate and people can agree or disagree with me.

- Dr. Rammell, thank you.

Candidates, it's now that time in our debate where we'll allow you to have closing statements.

We'll go in reverse order as our rules.

Governor Gordon, you're first.

- Well, thank you again to community college here.

It is wonderful to have the great questions that we were given this evening.

Thank you to my fellow candidates.

It's been a good discussion.

And I grew up in Kaycee, Wyoming on a ranch.

I married Jenny.

We continue to ranch.

We raised our kids there and we've been very proud of the fact that our kids have gone on and found good lives for themselves.

And they all love the ranch.

They love to come back to the ranch.

I feel strongly about the time that I worked for an oil and gas company, about how with oil and gas, we could do some remarkable things to help the state and to grow our economy.

I've worked very hard to make sure as a treasurer that the state's portfolio did much better and we've passed an amendment to allow us to earn even more money, that's because I wanted to make sure that our people didn't have to pay excess taxes.

We typically save taxes with what the portfolio returns.

I'm also very proud of the fact that as a governor, I have led other governors in pushing back and changing what this Biden administration is trying to do.

I wanna make sure that if you remember one thing this evening, you remember I am the only person on this stage who has a proven track record of standing up for your rights.

God bless Wyoming.

God bless America.

And I humbly ask for your vote.

Thank you.

- Governor, thank you.

Mr. Bien.

- Folks, thank you very much.

I am extremely honored to be competing for the high office of governor.

And sir, I appreciate your time here tonight.

I tell you, I'm running for two primary reasons and that's to protect our constitutional freedoms and to say no to federal overage and make it count.

I will tell you that my goal as governor is to make this state the freest state in the nation.

And we can do that.

We should accept nothing more than number one across our nation in whatever it is.

And we can do that by actively and aggressively protecting personal freedoms, pursuing government accountability, and promoting our state sovereignty.

Folks, I bring to the table nearly 30 years of leadership experience, okay.

And I tell you, during that time in seeing the world, like I said, in a completely different lens, that's what I'm bringing, okay.

I know how to make those tough decisions.

I've been responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars of assets, the lives of our service men and women, and also, the associated civilians.

I've been presided over a $9 billion base in the far West Pacific and I knew the disposition of all those funds, very familiar with budgeting across the board.

And folks, I've had to make those tough decisions in combat, where those life threatening decisions that you have to make right there and right then, and that's what I bring to the table, folks.

And we should do everything we can to advance Wyoming to its rightful place, and that's number one.

Thank you.

- [Craig] Mr. Bien, thank you very much.

Dr. Rammell.

- Article 4, section 2 of the Wyoming Constitution, qualifications of governor, no person shall be eligible to the office of governor unless he be a citizen of the United States and a qualified elector of the state who has attained the age of 30 years and who has resided, resided, five years next preceding the election within the state or territory, nor shall he be eligible to any other officer during the term for which he was elected.

Colonel Bien, you haven't lived in the state for five years.

You're not eligible to be the governor.

And I ask you tonight, patriot to patriot, to honorably bow out of this race and keep this out of the court.

It's very clear the language is precise.

You have to reside inside the state for five years and there's no military exemption in the constitution.

You're not eligible.

I ask you for the people of Wyoming for this race to honorably bow out and let Mark Gordon and Rex Rammell go to the polls.

My name is Rex Rammell.

I'm a strong man.

I am a state's rights candidate.

I believe in Wyoming sovereignty.

And I think that there's no problem too big that we can't solve.

I'm proud to have Taylor Haynes at my side.

Between Taylor and me, we will fix the problems of this state, but it will be done through state sovereignty.

I appreciate your consideration and I thank you for your vote on August 16th.

- [Craig] Dr. Rammell, thank you very much.

Mr. Bien, I'll give you an opportunity- - Yes, I do wanna respond to that.

Out of the same constitution in article 6, section 7, just because I decided to serve my nation, to serve our country, I do not lose my residency there.

Okay, this was cleared with the Secretary State's office, or lawyers across the state, and also with the elected representatives right now.

I chose to serve this nation something you did not do.

And I am very proud of doing that and I will serve this nation, okay, with the honor and distinction that I did as a Marine Corps officer.

Thank you.

- Mr. Bien, thank you very much.

Audience, please hold your applause.

Candidates, I wanna thank you for participating in tonight's debate.

I think, we have, again, proved to the state of Wyoming and to the nation that we can differ on opinions and have a civil thoughtful discussion.

And I thank you all for participating in that way this evening.

I also wanna thank Jennifer Amanda for serving as our debate timekeeper tonight, and for our panelists, Steve Beck, Maggie Mullen and Jasmine Hall for serving with me on tonight's panel.

Thank you very much.

Absentee voting is underway in Wyoming.

And if you're not voting via absentee ballot, we certainly encourage you to vote in the primary, that's election day on August 16th.

We wanna thank you for watching and listening to our simulcasting partners at Wyoming Public Media.

Wyoming PBS is proud to continue the tradition of bringing the candidates to you and allowing you to hear from them in their very own voices.

You can see this debate again online on the Wyoming PBS YouTube page, and we encourage you to stay tuned for our next set of debates.

That's next week on August 4th.

We'll hear from the Democratic US House candidates and the democratic gubernatorial candidates.

Audience, thank you for participating.

Now, please join with me in giving the candidates a round of applause.

(audience applauding) Thank you all for attending and we'll see you soon.

(grandiose music)