♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for the Hinckley Report is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report," Utahns cast their ballots on election day as the state test the waters with rank-choice voting, political boundaries take shape as leaders prepare for a special session on redistricting, and legislators jockey for leadership positions, while familiar names consider a second act in state politics.

♪♪♪ CC BY ABERDEEN CAPTIONING 1-800-688-6621 WWW.ABERCAP.COM Jason Perry: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report," glad to have you with us.

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Katie McKellar, reporter with the Deseret News; Derek Brown, former chair of the Utah Republican Party; and Scott Howell, former Democratic member of the Utah State Senate.

Thank you so much for being with us today.

Election week, I know we all love it.

You know, I'm pretty sure everyone loves it as much as we do on election day, but it's very interesting to see what's happened in Utah.

We had a lot of municipal races that we were following.

A couple themes I want to get into, rank choice voting for example, and kinda talk about that.

Derek, let's launch into maybe the biggest test case of rank choice voting was Sandy city.

Maybe take a second just for our viewers to make sure we understand exactly what rank choice voting is, how it works, and let's talk about some of the results.

Scott Howell: Well, I actually used it last year.

It was the first I think large scale use for the Republican Convention, the state convention, and it was very practical because the way that you normally vote and things like that is you have multiple rounds of voting.

Somebody votes, you eliminate the one who gets the lowest lowest votes, and you keep doing it over and over and over, and in a pandemic it wasn't practical in, for instance, the first congressional district to have, you know, 10 or 11 rounds, so we used rank choice voting, and the legislature has now given cities the right to do the same thing where you can choose who's your first, second, third, fourth, fifth choice, and generally who your fourth, fifth, or sixth choice is doesn't matter, except I think in cities like Sandy it actually mattered.

So this is kind of a grand experiment here in Utah.

Jason Perry: Right, so that-- just for the sake of thoroughness--so that eighth place person, if that person, of course, is not going to advance, so you take that person's second choice and those go and get added to the tally until you get to someone that has over 50%, and it's interesting, Scott, it was eight rounds in Sandy that it took, and we're close to that winner there as well, but one of the arguments is that this tends to--on both sides of the aisle--this this form of voting may tend to moderate the candidates that finally emerge as the victor.

Scott Howell: That's a good thing, and that's what we want.

We don't need the extreme left or right, and I think the best example of that where you see rank choice voting was in Midvale with the mayor there.

The guy who was behind, Marcus Stevens, after the second round popped way up in front of the incumbent mayor, and I think it's here to stay.

I think rank choice voting makes a lot of sense, because if you can't get your first choice, you go for your second.

And where where else it was important in Salt Lake City Council race.

Victoria, you saw her pop up high against her opponent and Alejandro Pello.

He got more votes than anybody on the second round.

So it was amazing how that works.

Jason Perry: Uh-huh, do you think--are you a representative of this?

Is this really sort of a bipartisan approach now?

Democrats are using it more, Republicans are as well?

Is that generally the case, we're gonna see that going forward?

Scott Howell: I think so.

Derek Brown: Well, it's gonna be mixed.

I think it'll be interesting to see kind of the postmortem from a lot of the candidates, because I mean one of the problems I spoke with a number of candidates in Sandy, and a number of those mayoral candidates, one of the complaints they had was it's almost impossible to raise money, because if you have nine candidates, you know, the question is who's going to win, and in Sandy really it seemed like it was completely up, and have the nine candidates five or six of them could have won, and so as a consequence instead of having two candidates where the donations come into one or the other, it's really hard to raise money when it could be--.

So that may be an issue that some of the candidates who don't win take into consideration next time.

Jason Perry: Katie, one of the interesting aspects of this is how this plays for incumbents, alright.

We see you have a long list of names, and sometimes this is a chance for people who don't have name ID, but you wrote a great article this week about about some of incumbents and some of them aren't even necessarily safe inside the state of Utah.

Katie McKellar: No, they are not, and there's quite a big list of incumbents.

One of the biggest ones I think that was interesting was Park City mayor Andy Beerman.

He, you know, was behind councilwoman had 60% of the vote, that's definitely an upset, and so we definitely saw also in Cedar City, that was an interesting one.

You know, Mayor Maile Wilson was losing.

Bountiful, Randy Lewis losing to Councilwoman Kendalyn Harris.

So we saw quite a bit of examples of incumbents, you know, not necessarily safe this selection.

Scott Howell: You know, there was one that was really interesting to me is in Parowan, "By Golly Vote for Molly," a write-in candidate, by golly vote for--and she won, and she beat the incumbent down there, so for me, it's--I think rank choice is here to stay, and it just goes to show that even a write-in candidate who's willing to go out and do the work can win.

So I think on the financials, Derek brought up an interesting point, but you when you look at it, Jim Bennett raised more money than almost all-- Jason Perry: In Sandy.

Scott Howell: Yeah, in Sandy, and Monica was way down there, and again, I think rank choice voting makes a difference.

Jason Perry: So, Derek, 23 cities participated in rank choice voting.

So it's one thing in these municipal elections, we got a little view of it, so next year's gonna be a bigger test.

Derek Brown: Well, and that's I think a lot of the problems that people might--or complaints they might have about the municipals may not play into the partisan races.

I mean, we saw rank choice voting in the state of Virginia in the primary for the Republicans, and so the person who emerged from that rank choice voting tended to be I think the candidate most likely to beat McAuliffe.

Jason Perry: So this is Glen Youngkin was a product of rank choice voting in Virginia.

And it gets to that idea about the kind of candidate that emerge.

Scott, any take home lessons you're looking maybe through the lens of your, you know, your former minority party leadership in the state of Utah.

Any lessons that you are taking from that race in Virginia for governor.

Scott Howell: Oh, man, there are so many lessons.

There are so many great lessons.

I think first and foremost is that Youngkin, he ran a campaign to do away with sales tax, to get parents more involved in education, everything a Democrat would vote for.

I mean, that's to me, it's like hello, and then Terry McAuliffe makes the biggest error in the history of debates when he says, well, guess what, parents shouldn't be involved in their kids' education.

Are you kidding me?

Talk about the mama bear comin' out of that cave.

I mean, to me, the wonkiness has got to go.

Now, I look at Virginia, but I look at long Island, I look at Minneapolis and Seattle, Seattle elected a mayor that says I'm done and fed up with homelessness.

I am angry about what's happening with defunding the police, and for Democrats, wake up.

Get out of this wonkiness.

James Carville said it best, go to a detox of wonkiness and end that, because you know what?

If we don't, we're gonna be losers.

We're gonna lose, and it's just that simple.

Jason Perry: Katie, a couple of really interesting questions here.

You're interviewing lots of people around the state, and Scott just kinda got to some of those core issues, the education side in particular.

I mean Democrats owned this one for a very long time, and this seemed to be his key platform here.

When you're talking to people around the state of Utah, do you think that is going to be an issue that goes into this next election that I'll just say Republicans in the state of Utah are going to try to really attach to their campaigns?

Katie McKellar: Definitely, I mean in education, everyone cares about it, especially here in Utah.

And I think we kinda see that becoming more political, I think critical race theory's the more extreme example of that.

But for sure, we're seeing education become more political, and it's definitely I, mean, it's about the kids, right?

Anytime you can bring in, so for sure, it's an issue that everyone seems to care about.

Jason Perry: Wow, Katie's hitting some of these tough ones.

I mean, she's right on about this, right, Derek?

So this is, you know, this next election cycle was critical race theory, it's masks, it's kids in school, these are going to be coming up during this next election cycle, and it seemed to be one of the fundamental aspects of this campaign of Virginia.

Derek Brown: Exactly, and I think one of the other interesting things is looking at sort of the Biden agenda and how that played in as well, and I think to some degree--and I know Republicans are are wanting to show that this is a referendum on that agenda, and they're anxious to do that--but I think there is some truth to that.

And the other thing that he the Youngkin was able to do is there were competing voices within his own party.

There is a group on the far right that really didn't appreciate him.

It was sort of the more, you know, Trump-leaning Republicans, and what he was able to do was to bring them all together and manage that victory, because if they had splintered, he would never have won.

And so I think that's the other thing that he's done is kinda set out a blueprint for how Republicans run with that sort of Trump cloud hanging over them.

Jason Perry: So, Derek, if you'll hit this one, and then Scott on that side, too, because the Trump factor and the Biden factor.

I mean, this is--maybe you're gonna tell our elected officials how to win next time, all right?

From what you're doing right here.

So how does the Republican take some lessons from Virginia, say this is how you run as a Republican, and I'm curious how the Democrats will take that also.

Derek Brown: I think one of the things--and this from my work in the state Republican Party, we have these different factions.

I had one person in the media who once said to me, "Derek, I feel like there's about six political parties in the state of Utah, and you're the chair of five of them."

And he was joking, but only half joking, and part of that is because you do have these different factions, so what you need to do--and particularly Republicans--is to coalesce and to bring people together.

I think that's what the Youngkin was able to do is he was able to reach out to those on the Trump side of things, and in Utah I think the answer will be how does the sort of Mitt Romney and Mike Lee voters come together, and I think any candidate who can bring both of them together has a recipe for victory next year.

Jason Perry: Will there be a big Trump factor in that?

In that analysis?

Derek Brown: Probably, there probably will be.

I mean, that's what it looks like at this point.

I don't think it's going away.

Jason Perry: On the other side of the aisle.

Scott Howell: Derek's spot on on what his analysis of that is.

Look, I've known Terry McAuliffe for a long time.

He was out bashing Youngkin and tying Trump into him all the time.

Youngkin did never, ever, ever say once Biden, look at McAuliffe, he's a Biden person.

He just--he didn't play that card.

Youngkin was amazing, he ran in the shadows of Trump without ever letting that shadow even have a voice or anything, and for Democrats, big lesson here.

I'm gonna go back to this wonkiness.

It goes back to that whole thing about you can't be this progressive to say we're gonna do this and this and this and especially on education.

You want a playbook to win, you go out there and you tell parents and you tell students that they're the most important thing, and we're gonna work on funding education.

And again, Youngkin says I'm doing away with the sales tax on food.

That's a Democratic issue, it's always been that way, and he gets elected.

And you know what?

He's an impressive guy.

He's got tight ties with Romney.

He raised 75 grand for him during the presidential campaign.

He's smart, and I think he's gonna be a moderate within the Republican Party.

I think he's going to bring it back to the Republicans I love to deal with that weren't so extremists, and same with the Democrats.

You cannot be out there putting this progressive social agenda and think that people like that.

There's a narrow, narrow group of individuals within that Democratic Party that do it, but they have a loud voice, and it's gonna be sad.

Jason Perry: Hey, Katie, you do such great political reporting.

So you were asking these elected officials these very questions.

What is your sense of how they answer that question?

Would they answer your questions--which are tough, I know--how are they trying to walk that line in those interviews?

Katie McKellar: Walk the line between keeping Trump--.

Jason Perry: Yeah, the Trump aspect, yes.

Katie McKellar: You know, I think it's kinda tough, and I think everyone's still trying to find their way through how to navigate the next election season.

I think it'll be really interesting.

It might really depend on the candidate and how they identify, and so it'll be kind of up to them to see is this--is Trump someone that I identify with that my constituents identify with and really continue to value, or are they going to take a more moderate approach and try to keep him at arm's length?

And I think it's really gonna depend on the candidate.

Jason Perry: Yeah, it will, very specific.

So I'll tell ya no less controversial issue, wanted to get to the state's response to President Biden's covid vaccination requirements.

So the rules came out this week, and the whole state of Utah is talking about how this is going to be implemented.

Scott, if you'll take a second to talk about how that just went into play and a little about Utah's response so far.

Scott Howell: Well, the Biden administration found an old rule in OSHA where they were able to go in and say we can mandate through a public health initiative to make businesses over a certain amount of employees, it's 100 employees, yeah, and make sure that they're vaccinated.

The Utah response was Utah response.

We're gonna sue the Biden administration.

I think Senator Lee's written 19 different memos to the President calling it barbarism.

Jason Perry: Barbarism, yes.

Scott Howell: You know, the whole discussion to me is so insane and so silly.

Just go get the jab, get the shot, and you know what?

We'll end covid, it'll be gone.

Let's just all have a practical viewpoint of this.

You know, people said, oh, you get the shot, Bill Gates is gonna take over.

I want Warren Buffet to take over to tell me when to sell and buy.

But I think it's a silly argument, I really do.

68% of the businesses in Utah, by the way, have 100 people-plus.

Out of that it's estimated that more than half of them have already mandated shots.

Jason Perry: Well, Derek, that was the--go ahead.

Derek Brown: And I take a slightly different approach.

I mean, I think the issue is not just right now, it's looking down the road.

I mean, what Biden's doing, well, part of the thing that Senator Lee has been concerned about is what are the limits of federal government.

I mean, can they--if they can force you to take a medical procedure, what else can they force you to do?

And I think that's really the concerns that a lot of our state legislators have, and we'll see this in a special session.

We'll see the response, and that's what the lawsuits are about is really, okay, if they can do this, what else can they do?

If they can say that, you know, effectively two-thirds of the state of Utah has to undergo a medical procedure whether they want to or not, you know, a year from now what can they do?

And I think that's the question that everyone's really asking.

I think it's less about the vaccine mandates and more about the concept of where do mandates end.

I mean, a mandate is you'll do this or else, and so it's not surprising that our legislature says hang on, let us have some autonomy here.

Jason Perry: Yeah, Katie, let's gets what the legislators are saying and what they're telling you also.

And I want to read--it was a statement that just came out in response to the rule is going to affect.

This is President Stewart Adams, president of the Senate, Speaker Brad Wilson, Attorney General Sean Reyes, and also State Auditor John Dougal all together in this statement, and it does get to what what Scott and Derek were just talking about, Katie.

This is what they said, "The mandate the Biden administration issued is a blatant attempt to exceed well-established limitations on federal authority and infringes upon the rights of private businesses and employers.

Biden continues to be tone-deaf to the majority of Americans who oppose mandates."

Tell us about this quote in the context of what they are discussing, which is the business reaction to the mandate for them.

Katie McKellar: Yeah, I mean, so the next steps for the Utah legislature--I talked with Senate President Adams yesterday, and so while that lawsuit plays out, they want to clarify that there will be business exemptions, or exemptions for employees, so like religious, medical, or personal exemptions.

And Adam said he wants to see that exemption, also, for Utans who've already caught covid and recovered, like natural immunity.

And so I think we'll have to see.

I think they're negotiating with Governor Cox to get that on the agenda.

That special session is expected for Tuesday.

I think we can expect to see Governor Cox issue that call today.

We'll have to see what's on the agenda, but that's what they want to tackle.

Jason Perry: So, Derek, this is an interesting preview.

I wanna hear what coming on this, 'cause of course that third category, the personal belief exemption exists in our Utah statutes after the last legislation, but this is not-- does not exist in the federal law or the requirements that just came out.

Derek Brown: It doesn't, and so I think that's one of the things that we're gonna tackle, and if you look at that statement that you read, you'll notice it doesn't say anything about vaccinations.

The focus is mandates, and again, that goes back to the idea that when they said Biden's tone deaf on issues like for instance, federal land issues.

I mean, we have a state where our federal delegation, our stay legislate--.

I mean, almost every elected official in the state said, look, work with us on the federal lands issue, on the-- and Biden administration said no, we don't really care, and they're saying the same thing here, look, we're doing a good job.

If you compare Utah with other states, we're doing a great job, and so I think really what this comes down to is just this idea that we have a Utah way of doing things, where clearly if you look at numbers in terms of infections and unemployment and economic growth, we're doing really well, and for the administration to say yes but we're gonna implement this one size fits all program and you have no say, I mean, personally I have problems with that that have nothing to do with the vaccination issue, and so that's what you're going to see next week.

And the question is do these exemptions, can they swallow the overall rule.

I mean, that's really--if I were the Biden administration that would be my concern with that, but I think that's the debate we're gonna see next week.

Jason Perry: Tell us what comes next with what the administration, Scott, because this is 100% ahead, depending on the state is going to try to do a few things, but you are very connected to the business community also.

What is their general feeling about this this mandate that's coming down?

Are they--'cause they're actually doing it, as you said.

Scott Howell: They're doing it already, and they're engaging in it, and you know, any of their employees that say for religious reason and they're a member of the dominant religion here in the state of Utah, the Church has said no, we're not going to give those religious exemptions, and so I think for me I just go back to the point, but Derek makes a good point about federal mandates, where does it end?

And where do we stop?

But on this one it just seems to me like it's a health issue that we could end covid, we could just put it to bed and get over it, but there are concerns and you have to listen to the constituency and you have to listen--you know, what are they going to do next in terms of a federal mandate, but I think most of the employers in the state of Utah recognize that we just need to get the jab and then just end covid and move on.

Jason Perry: Apart from what the legislature does in terms of their powers with legislation, Katie, just a small glimpse of some of the lawsuits that are coming from the state of Utah.

'Cause Scott mentioned it, they came pretty quickly--are coming quickly.

Katie McKellar: Lawsuits related to be the mandate?

Jason Perry: Yes, yes, correct, yeah--so maybe have a little delay on the on the sound there.

But yeah, so we had several elected officials that are already saying the lawsuit is coming and the attorney general for the state of Utah, Sean Reyes already said we're already filing a lawsuit.

Scott Howell: Right, we have them lined up in the queue right now.

I mean, they'll be there, and we also have federal law--I mean lawsuits against the land, what they're doing down at Bears Ears, so just kind of line up.

I mean, it's Utah.

Derek Brown: But if they'd just work with us.

I think that's just the--just say look, what works is on a state-by-state approach.

I mean, if you compare Florida with California.

I mean I just returned from Florida last night, and Florida has the lowest infection rates in the country right now, and they didn't know a month ago, but so it's very different from California, but their approaches are different.

I just wish the federal government would sort of give the autonomy to the states to let them work out these issues, and the states that are just excelling--.

Scott Howell: Well, Derek makes a really good point on Bears Ears.

It was silly not to engage with Representative Curtis.

John has got a good plan, and he's had one in the pipeline for a long time, but for the Biden administration not even to reach out to him, and I got involved in that.

I called and I said you really need to do this, and it was like this attitude of, oh, you know, we know what we're going to do, but Clinton did the same thing.

Clinton did the same thing when he announced the monument.

Bill Orton and I were in different meanings, and we got the call from the White House, and we were shocked.

And so I don't know what this mentality is.

I don't think it's exclusive to the Democratic Party or administrations, I think it's happened in both sides.

Jason Perry: Yeah, one more thing it's going to happen, Katie, next weekend with a special session comes is redistricting, alright?

So what are you hearing?

Some are speculating this could be like two weeks, is it going to take that long?

What are you hearing?

Katie McKellar: Oh, I hope not, 'cause I'm gonna be the one listening, but yeah, I did talk with Representative Paul Ray yesterday to ask him about the status of the legislative maps.

And he said he wants to see some of those come out today, but we'll see when they actually come out, but the hope was to get--give the public some time to look at legislative committees maps before the special session on Tuesday next week.

So redistricting will be a big topic.

Also, if you know the vaccine mandate ends up on the agenda, I think we can expect the Dixie name change to come to a head after that recommendation from the board of education.

And so it will be a busy special session.

Jason Perry: It will be a fun a couple of weeks.

Derek Brown: The special in the special session, right?

Jason Perry: Derek, what are you hearing about these maps?

So we've seen the maps from the independent redistricting commission, we may very soon get to see some of the maps from the legislative committee.

Derek Brown: Exactly, and honestly I think the reality is the independent commission--I mean, they've created their maps.

I don't think the legislature's going to go that direction.

I think the reality is that commission--to the extent they're independent and I'll sort of a show my color shirt, but I think they're independent of accountability.

I mean, the differences--we're talkin' about legislators who have to cast a vote.

I mean, these maps--I think people don't sometimes realize that that the maps that pass actually have to be voted for, so there's an accountability.

If you're a legislator, you vote for these maps.

I was in the legislature 10 years ago when we had other maps.

There were maps I voted for and maps I voted against, and there were different reasons, and so I think you've got to get a map that crosses the finish line, and the independent commission we sort of all thought all along they would just take kind of the primary Democrat areas of the state, put them into one map, and create a Democrat district, and we sort of joked about it, and that's exactly what they did, so I think don't expect to see the legislature take those maps and pass that, at least when it comes to the congressional maps.

Jason Perry: Scott, as a former legislator.

Derek Brown: He may disagree with me on that.

Scott Howell: No, I think that's great, and I'll never forget in Mr. Patent's class at Skyline High School I learned a word called gerrymandering, and we had to spell it, and we had to give the definition.

I never thought I'd live it.

I'm a product of being gerrymandered out of my seat.

My best advice is he who has the power and the gold they rule, and the legislature's got it, and thank you to better boundaries and thank you to all those people.

My advice is if you're if you're redistrict out, don't have a pity patio party, go out and campaign if you really want the job, because, you know what?

That's what happens happens, it happens in California where the Democrats are in charge, and it's gonna happen here in Utah.

Derek Brown: And he campaigned and he won.

Jason Perry: Yes, that's true.

Derek Brown: But I was fortunate because Senator Rex Black said get your butt off outta here and go campaign and, it's just the reality of what happens.

We hope that it'll be fair and have some things that are realistic, but look, if you're not on the favorite list of the leadership of legislature, you're probably going to find a new district.

Jason Perry: In our last 30 seconds, can I talk about the favorite list?

'Cause I'm curious about some names coming back.

Derek Brown: I don't know if I want to go there.

Jason Perry: So we're gonna see Ken Ivory coming back potentially?

Maybe Max Cutler coming back?

Derek Brown: Yes, well, yeah, we could.

I think both of them are running.

I think one of the two of them may make it back, we may see them.

Scott Howell: Judy Weeks Rohner.

Jason Perry: Oh, yeah, that's another name.

Scott Howell: Yeah, another one that got appointed, so you'll see that.

You know, there's only six Democrats in the Senate, so but they could.

They could take two or three of 'em.

Jason Perry: Well, we'll watch some of these names we know from before, some new names we're gonna get to know better.

Thank you very much for your great comments this evening and insights.

It's gonna be a busy week.

Can't wait to talk more about it.

Scott Howell: Thank you for having us.

Derek Brown: Thank you.

Jason Perry: And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us, we'll see you next week.

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