>> JUST AHEAD ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, ELIZABETH CITY RESIDENTS FIGHT BACK AFTER THE DA DECLARED THE SHOOTING DEATH OF ANDREW BROWN, JR. WAS JUSTIFIED.

MECKLENBURG COUNTY OFFICIALS HOLD BACK FUNDING AND DEMAND A BETTER PLAN TO IMPROVE STUDENT PERFORMANCE.

AND A BILL TO WRAP RULES AROUND THE TEACHING OF RACE AND HISTORY IS ON ITS WAY TO THE SENATE.

JOIN US IN THE CONVERSATION.

♪ >> WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM I'M DEBORAH HOPE NOEL.

THIS WEEK, PASQUOTANK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY ANDREW WOMBLE DECLARED THE APRIL 21ST SHOOTING DEATH OF ANDREW BROWN JR. BY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES IN ELIZABETH CITY WAS JUSTIFIED.

>> WHEN WEIGHING THE DEGREE OF FORCE USED, A PROSECUTOR MUST PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION TO THE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES OF EACH PARTICULAR CASE, INCLUDING THE SEVERITY OF THE CRIME AT ISSUE.

WHETHER THE SUSPECT POSES AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO THE SAFETY OF OFFICERS OR OTHERS AND WHETHER HE IS ACTIVELY RESISTING ARREST OR ATTEMPTING TO EVADE ARREST BY FLIGHT.

USING THESE PARAMETERS FIND THAT THE FACTS OF THIS CASE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE THE OFFICERS WHO USE DEADLY FORCE ON ANDREW BROWN JR. DID SO REASONABLY AND ONLY WHEN A VIOLENT FELON USED A DEADLY WEAPON TO PLACE THEIR LIVES IN DANGER.

>> THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF ANDREW BROWN JUNIOR AND MANY IN THE COMMUNITY ARE VERY UPSET OVER THIS DECISION, AND ADDITIONAL ACTIONS ARE BEING PLANNED IN RESPONSE.

LET'S START TALKING WITH OUR GUEST TODAY KERWIN PITTMAN A COMMUNITY ACTIVISTS AND JESSE MCCOY SUPERVISING ATTORNEY FOR THE DUKE LAW CIVIL JUSTICE CLINIC.

THANK YOU GENTLEMEN FOR BEING HERE.

KERWIN, YOU HAVE BEEN PROTESTING WITH COMMUNITY MEMBERS IN ELIZABETH CITY FROM THE BEGINNING, AND WITH THE RELEASE OF THE FULL 45 SECONDS OF FOOTAGE AND NOW THE DA'S DECISION, HOW ARE PEOPLE FEELING?

>> SO PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED, PARTICULARLY IN THIS COMMUNITY ALSO THIS COMMUNITY.

THIS COMMUNITY ARE TIRED AND SO THIS PARTICULAR CASE SHINE LIGHT AND INJUSTICES ON THIS PARTICULAR INCIDENT BUT IT'S BEEN A LOT OF INCIDENTS THAT DIDN'T GET THE LIGHT OF DAY OR THE PUBLICITY THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS COMMUNITY SO THEY USED TO CORRUPTION ON MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS AN INSTITUTION IN THIS TOWN.

AND IT WAS JUST A SAD THING TO SEE THESE MURDERS CONTINUOUSLY HAPPEN AND YET, STATE-SANCTIONED VIOLENCE IS JUSTIFIED AGAINST BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES WHEN WE KNOW IT'S NOT JUSTIFIABLE.

>> NOW YOU MENTIONED ADDITIONAL INCIDENTS, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

CAN YOU SHARE ANY OF THOSE?

>> SO IT HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY A LOT OF POLICE BRUTALITY CASES, A LOT OF COVER UPS, A LOT OF CORRUPTION CASES WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THIS PARTICULAR TOWN HAVE BEEN TAKEN MONEY, SEIZING DIFFERENT ASSETS FROM INDIVIDUALS AND NOT GOING THROUGH THE CORRECT PROCESS AND GIVING INDIVIDUALS THEIR DUE PROCESS SO WHEN I SAY CORRUPTION, I MEAN THIS PARTICULAR TOWN AND COUNTY IS DEEPLY ENTRENCHED IN RACIST TENDENCE PRINCIPLES, BUT ALSO DEEPLY ENTRENCHED IN CORRUPTION IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

>> AND THOSE ARE STRONG ACCUSATIONS, SO ARE YOU TAKING LEGAL ACTION TO ADDRESS THOSE ACCUSATIONS?

>> SO RIGHT NOW WE'RE CURRENTLY DOWN HERE ON THE GROUND HELPING INDIVIDUALS ORGANIZE, STRATEGIZE AND THEN WE'LL BE MOBILIZING AND MOVING FORWARD WITH SEVERAL ACTIONS, PARTICULARLY PERTAINING TO SOME OF THIS CORRUPTION IN SOME OF THESE CASES.

>> THANK YOU AND JESSE CAN YOU HELP TO EXPLAIN THE DA'S REASONING IN THE ANDREW BROWN JR. CASE?

HOW COULD IT COME TO THIS CONCLUSION THAT THE SHOOTING WAS JUSTIFIED?

>> WELL THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

I'M NOT SURE I HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THAT.

WHAT I WILL SAY IS THE DA'S JOB IS SUPPOSED TO BE TO WEIGH WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS SUFFICIENT PROBABLE CAUSE TO SUPPORT CRIMINAL CHARGES.

AND AT LEAST FROM THE PORTION OF THE VIDEO THAT WAS RELEASED, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE NECESSARILY SEE IT.

WHAT WE WERE TOLD WAS THAT THERE WAS SOME KIND OF DEADLY WEAPON THAT WAS USED AGAINST POLICE, BUT FROM WHAT WE SEE IN THE VIDEO WE SEE ROUGHLY ABOUT 5 OFFICERS WITH MACHINE GUNS, JUMPING OUT OF A TRUCK RUNNING UP ON A CAR NOT ANNOUNCING THEMSELVES.

AND THE CAR TRYING TO GET AWAY.

I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR IT IS NOT LAWFUL FOR POLICE OFFICERS TO SHOOT SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE FLEEING.

THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS BROUGHT UP FOR SOME STRANGE REASON IN THE DA'S ADDRESS, AND I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHY THAT COMMUNICATIONS PUT OUT THERE.

BUT IT LOOKS LIKE MISTER BROWN IS TRYING TO DRIVE AWAY, AND IN DRIVING AWAY AND TRYING TO FLEE, THEY OPENED FIRE ON MR. BROWN AND WE DO KNOW FROM AT LEAST ONE AUTOPSY SO FAR THAT HE WAS SHOT IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD WHICH WOULD ALSO INDICATE THAT THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT TO DEPART.

SO I'M NOT REALLY SURE WHERE HE'S COMING FROM I THINK HE'S TRYING TO ARGUE THAT THE VEHICLE WAS THE DEADLY WEAPON THAT WAS BEING USED, BUT I JUST DON'T SEE THAT FROM THE VIDEO.

>> WELL, KERWIN, YOU ALL HAVE -- IT MAY NOT BE FROM YOU ALL, BUT A BOYCOTT OF BUSINESSES HAS BEEN CALLED.

WHAT'S BEEN YOUR ROLE IN THAT AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE EFFECTIVENESS OF DOING THAT - HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY EXPECTED MAKE AN IMPACT WITH A BOYCOTT?

>> SO PARTICULARLY, MY ROLE HAS BEEN BEHIND THE SCENES MORE OF A SUPPORTIVE ROLE BECAUSE I WANTED TO UPLIFT AND CENTER THE VOICES PARTICULARLY IN THIS COMMUNITY, AND SO JUST PROVIDING STRATEGIES AND KIND OF DIFFERENT MEETINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND TACTICS WE CAN KIND OF ATTACK THE PROBLEM FROM ALL ANGLES, AND SO THE BOYCOTT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE KNOW WHEN PEOPLE START LOSING MONEY A LOT OF PEOPLE REALLY START PAYING ATTENTION, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU'RE TAKING MONEY FROM DIFFERENT CITIES AND COUNTIES AND SO THIS BOYCOTT WILL BE EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE BECAUSE AS OF RIGHT NOW THE PROTESTS ALONE HAS COST THE CITY OVER $300,000 AND WE KNOW IT'S A SMALL COMMUNITY WITH A SMALL BUDGET.

SO BY TAKING THE FINANCIAL STABILITY OUT OF THESE PARTICULAR INSTITUTIONS THAT UPHOLD CORRUPTION, ON MULTIPLE LEVELS WILL BE ABLE TO REALLY LEVERAGE THE POWER THAT PEOPLE REALLY HAVE TO BRING THOSE STAKEHOLDERS TO THE TABLE TO NEGOTIATE JUST IN EQUITABLE TERMS AND IT'S KIND OF SAD WE HAVE TO USE THESE TYPE OF TACTICS, GUERILLA WARFARE TACTICS, BUT TO BE HONEST, WE DEALING WITH A SYSTEM THAT DON'T PLAY OFF OF PRINCIPLES, AND SO WE'VE GOT TO TAKE OUT TACTICS AND REALLY STRATEGIZE OFF OF A WHOLE DIFFERENT PLAYBOOK.

SO I THINK IT WILL BE EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AND IT WILL BRING EQUAL STAKEHOLDERS TO THE TABLE TO REALLY ADDRESS THE PROBLEM AND ROOT OUT THE BIASES WITHIN THIS COMMUNITY.

>> JESSE, BECAUSE THE DA HAS MADE HIS DECISION, WHAT RECOURSE DOES THE FAMILY OR ANYONE HAVE AT THIS POINT NOW THAT THE DEPUTIES ARE LEGALLY BLAMELESS?

>> WELL WE STILL HAVE A FEDERAL INVESTIGATION THAT IS UNDERWAY AND WE'LL WAIT AND SEE KIND OF WHAT THE RESULTS ARE FROM THAT.

THE FAMILY DOES HAVE THE ABILITY TO ALSO FILE A LAWSUIT.

BUT AGAIN THOSE LAWSUITS CAN BE VERY TRICKY, PARTICULARLY IF THIS IS AN AREA THAT IS COVERED BY ANY KIND OF SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY.

IT CAN BE VERY TRICKY AND NOT NECESSARILY A GUARANTEE FOR A GOOD OUTCOME.

WHAT I WOULD ALSO SAY IS NORMALLY IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, WHAT HAPPENS IS A DA PARTICULARLY WHO IS EMBEDDED WITH AN OFFICE IN THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT WOULD UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE CONFLICT THERE AND GET A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO COME IN AND DO THE INVESTIGATION.

CLEARLY THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE HAS ASKED FOR.

IT SEEMS THAT HE HAS NO INTENTION OF DOING THAT WHICH ONLY CLOUDS MORE OF THE TRANSPARENCY THAT WE NEED FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM TO OPERATE EFFECTIVELY.

>> JESSE MCCOY, KERWIN PITTMAN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE AND SHARING YOUR YOUR VIEWS ON THIS ISSUE, >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, CHURCH LEADERS AND OTHERS IN THE COMMUNITY HAVE TAKEN A STAND FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION.

THEY HAVE DEMANDED THAT 56 MILLION DOLLARS OF THE CHARLOTTE MECKLENBURG SCHOOL BUDGET BE WITHHELD UNTIL THE SCHOOL SYSTEM CREATES BETTER EDUCATION PLANS FOR MINORITY STUDENTS.

FOR MORE ON THEIR REASONING, I'D LIKE TO WELCOME MECKLENBURG COUNTY COMMISSIONER GEORGE DUNLAP, AND COUNCILMAN AT LARGE BRAXTON WINSTON.

THANK YOU GENTLEMEN FOR BEING HERE.

I WANT TO OPEN WITH YOU COMMISSIONER DUNLAP.

ONE OF YOUR DEMANDS IS FOR A STRONGER STRATEGIC PLAN WITH SOME INDICATORS ON IT.

THE CHARLOTTE MECKLENBURG SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS SAID THAT THEY HAVE ISSUED STRATEGIC PLAN, AND IN FACT, THEY HAVE SAID THAT THEY HAVE ANSWERED A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS IN A FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS DOCUMENT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT DOCUMENT AND ABOUT THEIR ANSWER REGARDING A STRATEGIC PLAN?

>> WELL, I THINK IT WILL BE CLEAR TO THE COMMUNITY IF YOU SIMPLY GO OUT ON THE INTERNET AND LOOK AT WHAT THEY CALL THEIR STRATEGIC PLAN.

WHAT WE'RE ASKING FOR IS A PLAN IN THAT HAS METRICS IN IT THAT SAYS WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE, HOW THEY PLAN TO DO IT, AND WE WANT INDICATORS TO TELL US WHAT THE PROGRESS IS TOWARD MEETING WHATEVER GOALS AND OBJECTIVES THERE ARE.

YOU KNOW THE THING THAT REALLY CONCERNS ME ABOUT THIS IS WHEN WE MADE THIS REQUEST, THEY IMMEDIATELY WENT ON THE DEFENSE.

WHAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING THAT THE COUNTY COMMISSION CAN BUY INTO, THEN THAT HELPS US SUPPORT THEIR PLAN BY BEING ABLE TO SAY THIS IS WHAT IT TAKES TO ACHIEVE THESE OBJECTIVES.

RIGHT NOW, WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS SAYING, "WELL, IT'S NOT OUR JOB TO ASK."

>> NOT YOUR JOB TO ASK.

COUNCILMAN WINSTON, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE POINTS OF VIEW OF BOTH THE COMMISSIONERS AND THE CHARLOTTE MECKLENBURG SCHOOL SYSTEM?

WHERE'S THE COMMON GROUND, DO YOU KNOW?

>> OH ABSOLUTELY I'M HOPING THAT WE AS A CITY FROM THE CITY OF CHARLOTTE PERSPECTIVE, ONE THING THAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW IS GOING THROUGH A COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING PROCESS OURSELVES.

WHILE THIS IS PRIMARILY A LAND USE PROCESS, AN IMPORTANT PART OF THIS EMPLOYING GROWTH STRATEGY THAT AS AS COMMISSIONER DUNLAP SAID ARE MEASURABLE AND WE CAN WORK WITH OUR COUNTERPARTS OVER AT THE COUNTY OVER AT CMS AND OTHER ENTITIES OF GOVERNMENT TO ALIGN THOSE STRATEGIC PLANS SO THAT THEY ARE WORKING TOGETHER.

TRADITIONALLY HERE IN CHARLOTTE AND MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT COMPREHENSIVE NATURE OF THE WAY OUR BOARDS AND BODIES WORK TOGETHER AND OUR CITIZENS HAVE SUFFERED.

SO I THINK THIS IS PART OF THE SAUSAGE-MAKING, YOU KNOW, THAT THAT OFTEN GETS DONE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, BUT I THINK THERE'S BEEN A COMMITMENT ON BEHALF OF ELECTED AND THE CONSTITUENCY AT LARGE TO DO SOME OF THIS WORK MORE OUT IN THE OPEN.

I THINK THIS IS KIND OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

I DON'T KNOW IF COMMISSIONER DUNLAP WOULD AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THAT.

>> IS THAT HOW YOU SEE IT COMMISSIONER DUNLAP?

>> PART OF IT IS BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY IS REALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT TAKES PLACE.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF HEARING THE EXCUSES, 'NOW IS NOT THE TIME', 'WE JUST COME OUT OF THE PANDEMIC', WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMIC ISSUES THAT HAVE OCCURRED OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.

AND SO AS PEOPLE KEEP LOOKING AT THE PROGRESS BEING MADE THEY KEEP ASKING THE QUESTION, "HOW MANY YEARS MUST CHILDREN WAIT?"

RESEARCH SUGGESTS THAT WHEN A CHILD IS BEHIND THREE YEARS CONSECUTIVELY, THEY NEVER CATCH UP.

I THINK THIS IS WHAT WE SEE WHEN WE SEE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RIOTING AND A LOT OF THE DISCOURSE THAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR COMMUNITY, IT'S THAT LEVEL OF FRUSTRATION.

SOME PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THAT A FEW YEARS AGO, THERE WAS A STUDY DONE THAT SAID THAT IN TERMS OF UPWARD MOBILITY IF YOU LIVE IN MECKLENBURG COUNTY, WE ARE 50 OUT OF 50 COMMUNITIES THAT WAS STUDIED.

WELL THE WAY TO GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION, THE WAY TO MOVE UP IS TO GET AN EDUCATION, AND SO COLLECTIVELY I THINK OUR COMMUNITY SAYING IT'S TIME TO DO THAT.

>> ABSOLUTELY WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE HEARD FROM THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, WE DID TRY REPEATEDLY TO REACH OUT TO CHARLOTTE MECKLENBURG SYSTEM AND TO THE SUPERINTENDENT BUT WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED ANY RESPONSE SO WE WOULD LOVE TO KNOW -- >> LET ME JUST SAY THIS.

AND SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT STRATEGY THERE IS, BUT THEY WERE INVITED TO COME BEFORE THE BLACK POLITICAL CAUCUS, THEY CHOSE NOT TO.

THEY WERE INVITED TO BE ON A RADIO SHOW THAT IS NONCONTROVERSIAL, THEY DECIDED TO DECLINE THAT, THEY WERE INVITED TO APPEAR WITH A FORUM WITH THE CHARLOTTE POST.

THEY DECLINED THAT.

NOW YOU'RE TELLING ME THEY DECLINED YOU.

SO WHY IS IT THAT THEY CAN'T APPEAR AND ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT ARE BEING RAISED IN OUR COMMUNITY?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

BUT COMMISSIONER WINSTON IF THE COMMISSIONERS IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM CAN NOT SEE EYE TO EYE SOUNDS LIKE PERHAPS BEHIND THE SCENES, THERE IS SOME WORK TO TRY TO GET PEOPLE ON THE SAME PAGE WITH UNDERSTANDING THAT THE COMMUNITY, THE COMMISSIONERS HAVE A SAY AND THAT THE SCHOOL BOARD OR RATHER THE CMS SYSTEM ALSO HAS A SAY AND THAT THEY SHOULD WORK TOGETHER.

SEEMS LIKE THAT MIGHT BE HAPPENING BEHIND THE SCENES BUT IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, WHAT'S LEFT FOR THE STUDENTS WHERE THE WHERE THE CHILDREN LAND HERE?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU'RE BRINGING UP A BIGGER POINT HERE I'M GOING TO BRING UP THE BIG "C" WORD IN TERMS OF CONSOLIDATION.

WHEN I FIRST GOT ELECTED, IN ONE OF MY FIRST MEETINGS I SAID THAT "MAYBERRY MIGHT BE SET IN NORTH CAROLINA, BUT CHARLOTTE AND MECKLENBURG COUNTY WE'RE NO MAYBERRY.

AND IT'S HIGH TIME THAT WE LOOK AT OUR SYSTEMS OF GOVERNANCE AND SEE MAYBE WHAT WAS WORKING IN THE PAST, OVER THE PAST 100 YEARS ARE NOT MODELS THAT WE NEED TO DEPEND ON FOR THE NEXT 100 YEARS.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST AND FRANK FOR OUR BODIES TO WORK TOGETHER ACROSS FROM THE CITY, COUNTY AND CMS PERSPECTIVE AND AGAIN OUR CONSTITUENTS REALLY SUFFER.

YOU KNOW I WILL GO BACK TO CMS.

WHILE I'M I'M NOT AN EXPERT AT PUBLIC SCHOOL POLICY, I DO KNOW THAT REGARDLESS OF WHAT CMS COMES UP WITH IN TERMS OF TRYING TO FIX THEIR PURVIEW STUDENTS ARE GOING TO SUFFER.

FOR INSTANCE, AS WE'VE SEEN IF THEY REMAIN IN A DIGITAL DIVIDE.

IF IF THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS IN THEIR HOME THE HIGH-SPEED INTERNET AND THE ABILITY TO USE DEVICES AS TOOLS.

AND THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THE SCHOOL BOARD CAN NECESSARILY CONTROL.

IF STUDENTS CAN'T WALK SAFELY FROM THEIR HOMES TO SCHOOLS, THAT'S GOING TO BE AN IMPEDIMENT TO THEM TO GET AN EDUCATION, AND AGAIN THOSE ARE GOING TO AFFECT OUR RESULTS BUT AGAIN IF WE ARE NOT WORKING TOGETHER ACROSS ALL 3 BODIES TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS THAT FALL WITHIN AND THEN OUTSIDE OF OUR PARTICULAR JURISDICTION, THESE PROBLEMS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE COULD PERSIST AS COMMISSIONER DUNLAP STATED EARLIER.

I HOPE HOPEFULLY THIS COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING PROCESS THAT WE'RE EMBARKING ON FROM A CITY PERSPECTIVE CAN HELP TO BRING OUR COLLEAGUES ALONG.

>> WITH GREAT HOPE IT DOES BECAUSE NO CHILD SHOULD HAVE TO STAND STILL AND WAIT FOR ADULTS TO MAKE UP THEIR MINDS.

EVERY SINGLE CHILD'S EDUCATION IS PRECIOUS.

HOW DOES WITHHOLDING VITAL FUNDS FROM SCHOOLS THAT ARE ALREADY STRUGGLING AFTER A YEAR OF COVID HELP THE CHILDREN?

>> WELL LET ME LET ME JUST SAY THIS I WAS ON THE SCHOOL BOARD MYSELF FROM 1995 TO 2008.

13 YEARS: IT WAS THEN THAT I CAN ON THE COUNTY COMMISSION AND NOW CHAIR THE COUNTY COMMISSION.

SO I'VE SEEN BUDGETS FOR 26 YEARS OF CMS.

THERE ARE FORMER SUPERINTENDENT AFRICAN-AMERICAN AS WELL WHO WILL TELL YOU THAT WE DON'T HAVE A FUNDING PROBLEM.

WE HAVE A LEADERSHIP PROBLEM.

SO I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE PERSON THAT THE BOARD CHOSE TO LEAD THE EDUCATION SYSTEM, ONE OF THE LARGEST SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN THE COUNTRY, DOESN'T HAVE EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND.

HIS BACKGROUND IS THAT HE IS A FOUR YEAR GRADUATE IN PRINT JOURNALISM.

SO MUCH SO THAT THE BOARD HAD TO GET A WAIVER FROM THE STATE BECAUSE THE STATE SAID HE DIDN'T MEET THE CRITERIA.

>> BUT ONCE AGAIN, UNDERSTANDING THAT LEADERSHIP IS KEY.

UNDERSTANDING THAT CHOKING OFF THE FUNDING TO THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS HOW DOES THAT HELP THE KIDS?

>> SO I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'VE ASKED IS A PLAN.

THEY'VE GOT SUFFICIENT TIME TO PRESENT A PLAN.

NO FUNDS ARE BEING -- I MEAN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT ISN'T BEING DEFUNDED, WE'RE SIMPLY SAYING WE'RE HOLDING THIS UNTIL WE GET WHAT WE'RE ASKING FOR.

>> WHICH MEANS THEY CAN'T USE IT.

THEY CAN'T USE THOSE FUNDS.

>> SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THEN IT'S OKAY THAT THEY CHOOSE NOT TO DEVELOP A PLAN.

>> THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING.

WHAT I SAY IS THAT THE FUNDING IS NEEDED AND APPARENTLY I MEAN THE KIDS ARE SUFFERING.

SO WHERE CAN THE PUBLIC STEP IN?

THE LAST 15 SECONDS, WHERE CAN THE PUBLIC STEP IN?

>> THEY'LL GET THE FUNDING.

JUST PRESENT THE PLAN.

>> I HOPE THAT ALL OF OUR BODIES CAN COME TOGETHER, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH OUR INTERGOVERNMENTAL COMMITTEES AND BRINGING THE OTHER TOWNS IN THE COUNTY TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT HOW DO WE REALLY COME TOGETHER TO COME WITH POLICY APPROACHES TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF OUR CONSTITUENTS.

I THINK THAT IS THE SOLUTION HERE.

>> COUNCILMAN BRAXTON WINSTON COMMISSIONER GEORGE DUNLAP THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND FOR EXPLAINING.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> A NEW LAW THAT WOULD PLACE RULES AROUND HOW RACE AND HISTORY ARE TAUGHT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, PASSED THE HOUSE 66 TO 48 JUST LAST WEEK.

THIS IS HOUSE BILL 3.24 SUBTITLED AN ACT TO ENSURE DIGNITY AND NON DISCRIMINATION IN SCHOOLS.

HERE TO EXAMINE THIS BILL A LITTLE FURTHER, I'D LIKE TO WELCOME JAMES E. FORD EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF CREED, THE CENTER FOR RACIAL EQUITY IN EDUCATION.

JAMES, THE DRAFT LANGUAGE OF THE BILL IS INTERESTING.

I'D LIKE TO SHARE SOME OF IT.

IT READS.

THIS IS QUOTE "AN ACT TO DEMONSTRATE THE GENERAL "ASSEMBLY'S INTENT THAT STUDENTS, TEACHERS "ADMINISTRATORS AND OTHER SCHOOL EMPLOYEES RECOGNIZE THE "EQUALITY AND RIGHTS OF ALL PERSONS AND TO PROHIBIT PUBLIC "SCHOOL UNITS FROM PROMOTING CERTAIN CONCEPTS THAT ARE "CONTRARY TO THAT INTENT" END QUOTE.

SO WHAT ARE THOSE CERTAIN CONCEPTS WELL THEY NAMED THEM AND THEY INCLUDE FOR EXAMPLE, COMPELLING STUDENTS, TEACHERS ET CETERA TO PROFESS BELIEF IN THE IDEA THAT ONE RACE OR SEX IS INHERENTLY SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER, THAT ANY INDIVIDUAL IS INHERENTLY RACIST SEXIST OR OPPRESSIVE WHETHER CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY AND IT ALSO PROHIBITS PROMOTION OF THESE CONCEPTS, WHICH INCLUDES PROVIDING READING LISTS, TRAININGS, WORKSHOPS, CONTRACTING WITH SPEAKERS, ETC.

SO JAMES WHEN WE TALK ABOUT TEACHING AND INCLUSIVE HISTORY WITH ANY OF THESE THINGS BE PERMISSIBLE IN YOUR SIGHT?

>> YES, SO FIRST OF ALL THANKS FOR HAVING ME AND SECONDLY, THE SHORT ANSWER TO THAT IS I DON'T REALLY KNOW, AND I THINK THAT'S ULTIMATELY THE POINT IS THAT FOR TEACHERS THEY WOULD BE FORCED TO SECOND GUESS AND THINK TWICE ABOUT THINGS THAT WERE FORMALLY UNQUESTIONABLE, BECAUSE THEY'D BE EMBEDDED IN THE STANDARD COURSE OF STUDY.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT A LOT OF THIS IS A REACTION TO THE RECENTLY ADOPTED SOCIAL STUDIES STANDARDS THAT HAVE CALLED FOR A MORE INCLUSIVE SET OF TEACHING STANDARDS, BUT IT MAKES IT REALLY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND WHETHER THINGS LIKE THE NATURALIZATION ACT OF 1790 THAT PROHIBITED CITIZENSHIP FOR ANYONE WHO WAS NOT A WHITE MAN OF GOOD CHARACTER WILL FOR TEACHING ABOUT THE FBI COUNTERINTELLIGENCE PROGRAM THAT TRIED TO PREVENT THE RISE OF A BLACK MESSIAH FOR INSTANCE, OR RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS, IT BROKE UP INDIAN FAMILIES AND ATTEMPTED TO KILL THE INDIAN AND SAVE THE MAN.

HOW CAN YOU TEACH CONCEPTS LIKE THAT AND STILL HONOR THIS DRAFT BILL?

IT'S TOUGH ESPECIALLY WHEN THOSE CONCEPTS ARE NOT REALLY DEBATABLE.

SO THIS IS NOT ABOUT FACTS, IT APPEARS TO BE ABOUT FEELINGS AND IT'S REALLY A STRONG MAN FALLACY AT THE END OF THE DAY.

>> WELL, IT SEEMS AS I THINK YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE IT SEEMS AS THOUGH WHEN YOU'RE REFERENCING INHERENTLY UNEQUAL SUPERIOR OR INFERIOR YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RULES AND POLICIES IN OUR NATION THAT APPLY TO THE INHERENT INFERIORITY OF MINORITIES.

BUT THIS BILL APPEARS TO BE PROTECTING PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE ACCUSED OF BEING INHERENTLY OR CLAIMING INHERENT SUPERIORITY.

SO I SEE THE CONFLICT.

>> YEAH, IT JUST RAISES A LOT OF QUESTIONS FOR ME ABOUT WHO WAS REALLY SUBJECTED TO IN DIGNITY AND DISCRIMINATION IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM, RIGHT?

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, IT'S DISPROPORTIONATELY STUDENTS OF COLOR WHO ARE SUSPENDED FOR THE SAME THINGS AS OTHER KIDS WHO ARE UNDER ENROLLED IN HONORS AND AP COURSES WHO ARE UNDER IDENTIFIED FOR GIFTED AND TALENTED OVER IDENTIFIED FOR JUDGMENTAL DISABILITIES WHO EXPERIENCE USE OF FORCE GET PIPED INTO THE JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM, SO THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THAT.

AND SO THIS FEELS TO ME WHAT DOCTOR KING CALLED QUOTE UNQUOTE "THE SO-CALLED WHITE BACKLASH."

AS A THINKING PERSON YOU CAN'T LOOK AT SECTION ONE PART C IN SUBSECTION 7 AND SEE THAT YOU CAN'T TEACH A CONCEPT THAT QUESTIONS WHETHER THE UNITED STATES IS TRULY A MERITOCRACY OR WHETHER IT'S RACIST AND SEXIST WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DIGNITIES THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR SUFFER IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIFE AND ONE MUST CONCLUDE AWARE THAT IT MUST BE PEOPLE OF COLOR, RIGHT?

BECAUSE IT SURELY CAN'T BE THE SYSTEM THIS LEGISLATION PROHIBITS THAT FROM BEING EVEN QUESTIONED, AND SO IT'S NOT ABOUT FREEDOM OF THOUGHT OR INTELLECTUAL HONESTY.

THAT'S MASQUERADING.

IT'S ACTUALLY GASLIGHTING.

AND TEACHERS CAN'T LOOK KIDS IN THE FACE AND TELL THEM "FAT, MEATY AND GREASY," BUT THAT'S WHAT THIS LEGISLATION ATTEMPTS TO FORCE ME TO DO.

>> INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH IN THE BILL THAT THAT EXPRESSION, "INTELLECTUAL HONESTY" IS NAMED AND IT SAYS THAT THIS IS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE RIGHT OF OTHERS TO EXPRESS DIFFERING OPINIONS AND FOSTER END OF THEN, INTELLECTUAL HONESTY.

SO THAT'S WHAT THE BILL WANTS TO DO.

LET'S MOVE ON.

LET ME ASK YOU DO YOU THINK THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE 1619 PROJECT?

>> I THINK THAT THEY'RE RELATED I THINK THAT THEY ARE BRANCHES THAT EMERGE FROM THE SAME BITTER ROOT AND ULTIMATELY TREAT.

THERE IS A CULTURAL WAR THAT HAS BEEN A FOOT FOR A WHILE AND YOU KNOW ONE CAN'T LOOK AT THE 1619 PROJECT.

THIS CATCHALL PHRASE THAT'S BEEN USED AS CRITICAL RACE THEORY OR EVEN FRANKLY, THE MOST RECENT DENIAL OF TENURE AT UNC CHAPEL HILL TO NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES THE AUTHOR AND YOU KNOW SO THE INNOVATIVE 1619 PROJECT AND NOT FEEL THAT THEY'RE CONNECTED.

THE ABILITY TO TELL THE STORY TRULY EXEMPLIFIES THE PHRASE THAT THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD.

FOLKS RECOGNIZE THAT NOTHING LIKE THIS IS JUST AN OUTGROWTH OF THAT CONCEPT.

>> HOW CAN PEOPLE MAINTAIN THEIR PERSONAL DIGNITY WHEN THE FULL TRUTH ABOUT AMERICAN HISTORY IS TAUGHT?

YOU'RE FORMER TEACHER HOW DO YOU PROTECT EVERYONE'S DIGNITY?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I WAS ALWAYS A BELIEVER THAT EVERYONE'S DESERVES TO LEARN ABOUT THEMSELVES.

WE ALL COME FROM GREAT PEOPLE, SO FOLKS GOT TO LEARN HOW TO DEVELOP POSITIVE RACIAL IDENTITIES AND THAT DOESN'T JUST INCLUDE BLACK AND BROWN FOLK, THAT'S WHITE FOLKS TOO, RIGHT?

YOU KNOW PEOPLE GOTTA KNOW HOW TO SEE THEMSELVES INDIVIDUALLY AND AS GROUPS AND WAYS THAT TRANSCEND MYTHOLOGIES AND PATHOLOGIES.

WE'VE BEEN FORCED TO DO IT BECAUSE YOU KNOW MOST OF US DIDN'T LEARN THE FULL BREATH OF GENIUS EXPERIENCE, A LOT OF THOSE FIGURES WERE HIDDEN.

WHITE FOLK KINDA HAVE TO DO THE SAME THING, AND LET ME SAY SOMETHING LIKE, WHITE KIDS THEY WANT TO BE EXPOSED TO THE TRUTH.

RACISM IS TAUGHT.

IT'S NOT INHERENT IN ANYBODY AND A LOT OF IT I THINK IS ACTUALLY PREVENTING WHITE KIDS CURIOUSLY ENOUGH FROM REALLY CONFRONTING RACISM AND LEARNING THE TRUTH AS A WAY OF NOT THEM ADOPTING THEY'RE OWN SENSE OF SHAME, BUT I THINK IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING THE PARENTS AND THE FOREPARENTS FROM THE SHAME BECAUSE THERE ALREADY ARE GETTING OLDER AND THEY'RE LEARNING THESE THINGS THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TAUGHT IN SCHOOL AND THEY'RE STARTING TO INDICT THE COMMUNITIES THEY COME FROM SAY "WHY DIDN'T YOU ALL TELL US THESE THINGS?"

>> AND I WANT TO ASK A BIG QUESTION ON OUR LAST FEW SECONDS.

WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

WHAT IS IT?

>> WELL FIRST OF ALL LET ME SAY THIS IS NOT ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY, BUT SINCE YOU ASKED, CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS ACTUALLY A FIELD OF STUDY.

IT COME FROM CRITICAL LEGAL STUDIES, IT HAS BEEN INNOVATED BY BLACK AND BROWN SCHOLARS, IT IS A REPUTABLE FIELD A SCHOLARSHIP, LOOKS AT HOW SYSTEMIC RACISM FUNCTIONS IN OUR SOCIETY, PARTICULARLY IN A POST CIVIL RIGHTS ERA AND IT AIN'T NEWS.

IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES, BUT THIS AIN'T ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

THIS IS ABOUT CO-OPTING TERMS, IT'S A DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN THAT SEEKS TO DESTROY ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW TO BE TRUE.

>> WELL JAMES E FORD THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EXPLAINING THAT AND SHARING YOUR PERSPECTIVES TODAY ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

ONCE AGAIN I WANT TO THANK ALL OF TODAY'S GUESTS.

WE INVITE YOU TO ENGAGE WITH US TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM USING THE HASHTAG "BLACK ISSUES FORUM".

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FOR BLACK ISSUES FORUM, I'M DEBORAH HOLT NOEL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING!

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