REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME BACK TO PART TWO OF AN INTERVIEW WITH ELLEN BRADBURY-REID ABOUT EARLY TIMES IN LOS ALAMOS, THE BEGINNING OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT AND WHAT IT WAS LIKE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP.

IN LOS ALAMOS AT THE TIME OF THE CREATION OF THE BOMB.

YOU HAD SAID AT ONE TIME THAT THERE WERE EXPLOSIONS GOING OFF ALL THE TIME.

>>ELLEN: WELL, THEY WERE TESTING BECAUSE THEY HAD TO MAKE THESE SHAPED EXPLOSIVE LENS FOR THE IMPLOSION DETONATOR AND GEORGE KISTIAKOWSKY, GREAT EXPLOSIVE, PROBABLY THE BEST EXPLOSIVE EXPERT THEY SHOULD HAVE.

ANYWAY, HE SAID, NO ONE HAS EVER DONE THIS.

THEY WERE SHIPPING 26 TONS OF HIGH EXPLOSIVES A MONTH TO LOS ALAMOS AND BLOWING IT UP, TWENTY-SIX TONS A MONTH!

>>LORENE: A MONTH!

>>ELLEN: A MONTH.

YEAH, AND DRIVING IT RIGHT THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF TOWN.

OF COURSE, THE ROAD BEING YOU KNOW AS SORT OF WOBBLY AS IT WAS AND... >>LORENE: BUT THEY HAD A TESTING FIELD ADJACENT JUST OUT?

>>ELLEN: WELL, YES, IT WAS OUTSIDE AWAY FROM THE TOWN SITE.

>>LORENE: OH, OKAY.

>>ELLEN: SO THAT WE COULD SEE AND, OF COURSE, WE COULD HEAR THEM, EVERYBODY COULD HEAR THEM.

YOU COULD HEAR THEM IN SANTA FE.

>>LORENE: WERE THEY KIND OF EXCITING?

>>ELLEN: OH YES, WE LIKED THEM.

YES.

>>LORENE: THAT'S GREAT, THAT'S GREAT.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE FAMOUS PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY THE WOMEN IN LOS ALAMOS HISTORY.

I KNOW THAT DOROTHY MCKIBBIN WAS A FRIEND OF YOURS, SHE RAN THE MANHATTAN PROJECT OFFICE AT 109 EAST PALACE.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: IN SANTA FE.

AND SHE WAS CONSIDERED THE GATEKEEPER.

>>ELLEN: SHE WAS.

>>LORENE: ANYBODY WHO WAS COMING UP TO THE LAB, SHE WOULD TELL THEM HOW TO GET THERE AND SHE CLEARED THEM, AND SHE TALKED TO THEM.

>>ELLEN: SHE GAVE THEM WHAT THEY WOULD CALL A MCKIBBIN CARD, WHICH WAS LIKE INSTEAD OF A PASS, BUT YEAH, SHE WAS WONDERFUL, SHE WAS CALM, SHE WAS INGENIOUS, SHE WAS PRACTICAL, AND SHE WAS UNFLAPPABLE, I THINK.

AND HER OFFICE, 109 EAST PALACE, IS STILL THERE.

IT WAS A TINY LITTLE ROOM HEATED BY A TINY LITTLE FIREPLACE, AND THEN PAPERS AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A PATIO IN FRONT AND IT WAS PILED WITH LUGGAGE, DOGS THAT ARE YOU KNOW AT THE END OF THEIR ROUTE AND KIDS AND DOTTY JUST WENT ON, YOU KNOW, SORTING THINGS OUT AND EXPLAINING TO PEOPLE WHAT THEY HAD TO DO.

AND SHE JUST SCOURED SANTA FE - ALL THE DUDE RANCHES, EVERY PLACE TO PUT THE SCIENTISTS UP BECAUSE THERE REALLY WASN'T HOUSING.

AND IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE MOST EXTREME LIVING IN A TENT BUT PEOPLE JUST WERE CRAMMED IN AND YOU CAN'T SAY THAT THERE WAS NO PLANNING, BUT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW COMPLICATED IT WAS GOING TO BE TO FIGURE OUT, WELL IN THE CASE OF THE NAGASAKI BOMB FAT MAN, THE DETONATION PROCESS, THE DETONATOR FOR LITTLE BOY IS JUST LIKE A GUN WHERE YOU JUST SMACK URANIUM TOGETHER.

>>LORENE: JUST GIVE A LITTLE BACKGROUND.

>>ELLEN: TWO BOMBS.

>>LORENE: TWO BOMBS NAMED?

>>ELLEN: FAT MAN AND LITTLE BOY.

FAT MAN IS THE PLUTONIUM BOMB AND IT IF THIS DOESN'T MAKE YOU CRINGE, THE BETTER BOMB, AND THAT'S THE WAY ALL NUCLEAR WEAPONS PRACTICALLY HAVE GONE SINCE THEY FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IT.

BUT FIGURING OUT HOW TO DO IT WHEN THEY REALIZED THEY COULDN'T DETONATE THE PLUTONIUM THAT SPRING OF 44 AND OPPENHEIMER IS SO DISTRAUGHT HE THOUGHT OF RESIGNING AND HIS TRUE LOVE, JEAN TATLOCK HAD KILLED HERSELF AND HE HAD HEARD THAT AND HE JUST SAID, I CAN'T DO IT.

AND THE OTHER SCIENTISTS SAID, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN AND YOU HAVE TO GET IT TOGETHER AND DO IT.

SO THEN HE WENT AROUND BECAUSE THEY REALLY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO DETONATE IT AND THEY WOULD HAVE AT LOS ALAMOS AND STILL DO, I THINK, A COLLOQUIUM EVERY TUESDAY MORNING EARLY AND EVERYBODY, WELL I DIDN'T KNOW EVERYBODY, BUT MOST EVERYBODY CAME AND IF YOU HAD A PROBLEM OR THOUGHT YOU HAD A SOLUTION, YOU COULD JUST LAY IT OUT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MADE LOS ALAMOS SUCCESSFUL, I THINK, WAS THE FACT THAT THEY WORKED TOGETHER.

THEY DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF COMPETING, IT WAS SO HARD AND THERE WAS NO PRECEDENCE FOR WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: AND THOSE COLLOQUIA SESSIONS, YOU CAN SEE PICTURES OF THE SCIENTISTS SITTING THERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO AND IF SOMEBODY HAD AN IDEA THEN MAYBE OPPENHEIMER WOULD SAY, WELL WHAT DO YOU NEED, TAKE FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS AND GO DOWN IN THE CANYON AND SEE WHAT YOU CAN DO.

BUT I THINK THAT THAT WAS CRITICAL BECAUSE, CRITICAL IS A WORD THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF HERE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

TRUE.

>>ELLEN: THE SORT OF TEAMWORK TO USE A WORD MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE USED, BUT THAT THEY ALL REALLY WORKED TOGETHER AND, YOU KNOW, SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINES WERE BLURRED IN THAT... >>LORENE: ANYONE COULD COME UP WITH A SOLUTION.

>>ELLEN: SO FEYNMAN, 22 OR SOMETHING AND HE IS WORKING WITH HANS BETHE AND THEY ARE WORKING ON ADDING MACHINES NOW, ADDING MACHINES.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOSH.

>>ELLEN: NOW IF YOU CAN REMEMBER THEM, THEY ARE MERCHANT ADDING MACHINES AND THEY WERE USING SO MUCH THAT THE MACHINES KEPT BREAKING.

AND THEN THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO SEND THEM TO CHICAGO AND GET THEM FIXED AND FEYNMAN SAID I CAN FIX THEM AND HE STARTED FIXING THEM INSTEAD OF SENDING THEM AWAY AND HE FIGURED OUT PARALLEL COMPUTATIONS, YOU KNOW, WHILE HE IS WORKING.

>>LORENE: OH YES.

>>ELLEN: ON THESE MACHINES.

SO I THINK YOUTH IN A FUNNY WAY, UNLIMITED FUNDING.

MY FATHER HAD A STORY WHERE HE WANTED COPPER WIRE FOR SOMETHING AND THEY SAID WELL, WE DON'T HAVE COPPER AND HE SAID WELL COULD YOU SEND ME SILVER?

THEY SAID NO, BUT COULD YOU USE PLATINUM AND THEY SENT HIM PLATINUM.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>ELLEN: IT WAS VERY UNUSUAL WHEN YOU ASKED FOR SOMETHING THEY REALLY TRIED TO GET IT FOR YOU.

>>LORENE: A STORY THAT I HEARD PROBABLY FROM THOSE STUDY SESSIONS WAS THAT A SCIENTIST HAD SAID TO OPPENHEIMER, "BUT, WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THIS."

HE SAID, "WELL THEN WE WILL HAVE TO FIGURE IT OUT."

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

NO, HE SAID THAT TO DADDY.

DADDY SAID, "I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO IT."

OPPIE SAID, "WELL, JUST FIGURE IT OUT," AND HE WALKED OUT, HE WAS LIKE HMMM.

>>LORENE:: AND THEY WERE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT.

>>ELLEN: AND THEY DID, NOT IMMEDIATELY, BUT YEAH, THEY DID.

>>LORENE: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LOVED ABOUT DOROTHY, SHE WAS CALLED THE FIRST LADY OF LOS ALAMOS.

SHE WAS SO DRAWN TO OPPENHEIMER MAGNETISM, AND SHE JUST WANTED TO WORK FOR HIM.

SHE SAID IF HE WERE A DITCH DIGGER, I WOULD HAVE DUG DITCHES.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND SHE WAS REALLY SO LOYAL AND DEVOTED.

SO WHEN I WAS READING ABOUT HER THE FACT THAT SHE BURNED EVERY SCRAP OF PAPER AND I SUDDENLY REALIZED, TALK TO ME ABOUT THE TOP SECRETNESS OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT AND HOW THE SPIES THAT CAME AROUND AND PARTICULARLY THE STORIES ABOUT THE LA FONDA BAR ARE SO WONDERFUL.

WE ARE USED TO SPIES LIKE LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS AND WORLD WAR II MOVIES AND FEDORAS.

BLACK AND WHITE FILM BUT IT THE STAKES OF THIS WERE SO HIGH.

SO WHO WAS SENDING THE SPIES, GERMANY I KNOW.

>>ELLEN: NO, THE SOVIET UNION.

>>LORENE: OF COURSE, OF COURSE.

AND THEY KNEW THAT SOMETHING BIG WAS GOING ON BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT.

>>ELLEN: WELL, THEY HAD KLAUS FUCHS WHO WERE REALLY A BRILLIANT GERMAN.

HE WAS A QUAKER AND HE FELT AND MANY SCIENTISTS FELT THIS WAY, THAT THE INFORMATION SHOULD BE MADE AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE AND THEN TED HALL WHO WAS 20 I THINK.

>>LORENE: DIDN'T KLAUS FUCHS LEAVE THE SECRETS UNDER A BRIDGE OVER THE SANTA FE RIVER, IS THAT A MYTH.

>>ELLEN: WE DON'T REALLY KNOW.

MY MOTHER THOUGHT IT WAS THE EL CASTILLO BRIDGE WHICH HAS BEEN TORN DOWN AND MOTHER THOUGHT THAT, WELL I AM SURE THAT SHE IS RIGHT THAT THERE WAS A NURSERY THERE AND YOU KNOW THE RIVER WAS NOT CHANNELED VERY MUCH.

AND YEAH, THAT WAS THE BRIDGE AND YOU KNOW THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF STORIES IN SANTA FE.

I HAD A FRIEND WHO GREW UP IN SANTA FE AND HE SAID THAT THEY THOUGHT THAT WAS WHERE SOME MAN WITH A VIOLIN CASE HUNG OUT AND IT WAS EMPTY.

NOW, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THAT GOES, BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE SPIES, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE MOSTLY NEW YORKERS OR FROM THE EAST COAST, SO THEY HAD TO GIVE THEM A LANDMARK OR A BRIDGE A CHURCH OR SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, THE ADDRESSES IN SANTA FE EVEN TODAY ARE NOT SO RELIABLE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>ELLEN: SO THEY WOULD CHOOSE SOMETHING BIG ENOUGH, SO THE SCOTTISH RITES BUILDING IS REFERRED TO AS A CHURCH AND THAT'S A DROP OFF PLACE WE KNOW.

AND, OF COURSE, THEY WERE COMING IN THROUGH TESUQUE AND SO THEY WOULD BE RIGHT THERE.

BUT THE SPIES WEREN'T DISCOVERED UNTIL LATER AND THERE ARE STILL SOME THAT ARE COMING, THE SEBORER'S WHO WAS A RUSSIAN FAMILY WHO HAD DIFFERENT MEMBERS INSIDE.

THE OTHER ONE WAS GREENGLASS, LET ME SEE IF I CAN GET THIS, HE IS MARRIED TO THE ROSENBERG SISTER, I THINK.

HE WORKED AT S SITE, GREENGLASS, WORK ON THE SHAPED EXPLOSIVE LENSES.

HE WORKED FOR DADDY AND DADDY SAID HE REALLY WASN'T VERY BRIGHT, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE TOO BRIGHT TO PUT A FILE UNDER YOUR ARM AND WALK OUT THE DOOR.

>>LORENE: YOU WOULD BE BRIGHTER NOT TO.

>>ELLEN: YOU WOULD BE, BUT THAT IS WHAT HE DID.

SO, IT IS CERTAINLY PROBABLY KLAUS FUCHS AND TED HALL, THEY WERE BRILLIANT AND THEY PASSED USEFUL INFORMATION SO THAT THE SOVIETS COULD BUILD A BOMB FASTER THAN WE THOUGHT THEY COULD.

>>LORENE: SO MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAME TO WORK UP ON THE HILL AT THE LAB STAYED AT LA FONDA, RIGHT, A LOT OF THEM.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, I THINK THEY DID.

>>LORENE: AT THE BEGINNING.

>>ELLEN: AT THE VERY BEGINNING, YES, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO PLACE TO STAY AT LOS ALAMOS.

I THINK THE OPPENHEIMER'S MOVED IN MAY, NO MARCH OF 43 AND IT JUST GROWS JUST LIKETOPSY AND THERE ARE, OF COURSE, THE HOUSES ON BATHTUB ROW, THE HOUSES HAD BATHTUBS.

THE REST OF US HAD SHOWERS AND THEY ALSO HAD GRASS AND TREES, WE JUST HAD DIRT.

BECAUSE THE ARMY THOUGHT IT WAS TEMPORARY AND THEY WERE JUST THROWING BUILDINGS UP AND THEY WANTED TO CUT DOWN THE TREES.

EDWARD TELLER'S WIFE, MICI, FINALLY REVOLTED AND SAT UNDER A TREE ONCE, JUST DARED THEM TO CUT THAT TREE DOWN WHILE SHE WAS UNDERNEATH IT.

THEY DIDN'T.

>>LORENE: OF COURSE, THEY DIDN'T.

>>ELLEN: THE IDEA THEY WERE MAKING AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE WAS NOT... >>LORENE: EVEN IN THEIR VOCABULARY.

>>ELLEN: NO, NO.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ELLEN BRADBURY REID ABOUT EARLY DAYS, EARLY TIMES IN LOS ALAMOS.

THE SPIES, I JUST WANT TO GET BACK A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE OF THE LA FONDA BAR.

OFTEN THE BARTENDER WOULD BE A SPY.

>>ELLEN: WELL, I THINK THAT... >>LORENE: OR THE MAIDS, THERE WAS SOME ELEMENT.

PERHAPS ALLEGED.

>>ELLEN: NO I DON'T KNOW IF THE BARTENDER.

THEY THOUGHT OF MAYBE GIVING HIM SOME LOW LEVEL CLEARANCE BECAUSE IF SOME SCIENTIST CAME IN AND GOT A LITTLE BIT DRUNK AND TALKED TOO MUCH, HE WOULD HAVE THE AUTHORITY.

BUT DEAR DOROTHY MCKIBBIN SAID, "WELL GENTLEMEN, YOU KNOW YOU ARE RUNNING A HOTEL.

YOU JUST TAKE THE MAN UPSTAIRS AND YOU TAKE HIS PANTS AND THAT WILL..." YOU DON'T NEED A HIGH SECURITY CLEARANCE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, THE SOLUTION FOR EVERYTHING.

>>ELLEN: YEAH AND IT DIDN'T COST YOU ANYTHING.

>>LORENE: I KNOW THAT SHE MADE A LOT OF FRIENDS, BUT SHE DID A LOT OF WEDDINGS IN HER HOME.

>>ELLEN: OH YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND SOMETIMES THE CLERGYMAN PERFORMING THE CEREMONY WAS NOT ALLOWED TO KNOW THE LAST NAMES OF THE PEOPLE THAT HE WAS MARRYING BECAUSE THEY WERE HIGH SECURITY.

>>ELLEN: BUT SHE DID A LOT OF WEDDINGS.

WELL, DOTTY DIDN'T COOK.

SHE HAD A KITCHEN, SHE WAS JUST NOT INTERESTED, SHE LIKED TO EAT OUT.

SHE HAD A BARTENDER THAT SHE LIKED WHO HAD A RED COAT WHO WOULD TEND BAR.

SHE LIKED TO GIVE PARTIES.

BUT SHE LIKED TO EAT AT THE COMPOUND AND MARIA'S.

>>LORENE: OF COURSE.

YEAH.

>>ELLEN: COOKING WAS NOT SOMETHING SHE HAD THE FAINTEST INTEREST IN.

>>LORENE: BUT SHE IS SUCH A MEMORABLE CHARACTER AND I AM SO HAPPY THAT YOU HAD THAT WONDERFUL RELATIONSHIP WITH HER.

>>ELLEN: YES.

>>LORENE: SO, YOU ARE WRITING A BOOK.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, IT OCCURRED TO ME AFTER I HAD DONE OTHER THINGS THAT IT WAS, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT YOURSELF PRETTY SERIOUSLY AT SOME POINT AS WE GET OLDER AND I THOUGHT THIS IS QUITE UNUSUAL CHILDHOOD AND NOT TO MAKE MYSELF IMPORTANT BUT IT REALLY WAS.

I MEAN, HOW MANY OTHER KIDS GOT A SECURITY CLEARANCE WHEN THEY WERE SIX.

WELL, I HAVE TO TELL YOU AT THE END OF THAT WAS SO FUNNY BECAUSE YEARS AND YEARS LATER, I AM AT THE MINNEAPOLIS INSTITUTE OF ARTS AND THE KING OF SWEDEN COMES TO VISIT THE MUSEUM AND, OF COURSE, EVERYBODY GETS A CLEARANCE AND THEN THEY FINALLY SAY TO ME, YOU COME HERE AND I SAY, WHAT, OH DEAR, WHAT.

THEY SAID, "YOU HAVE THE HIGHEST CLEARANCE I HAVE EVER SEEN, YOU CAN GO TO THE BATHROOM WITH HIM."

BUT, YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR CLEARANCE JUST STAYS WITH YOU.

>>LORENE: THAT IS JUST SO WONDERFUL HYSTERICAL, SO FUNNY.

>>ELLEN: BUT I JUST THOUGHT I SHOULD WRITE SOME OF THIS DOWN AND I HAVE, WITH MY BROTHER, WRITTEN A BOOK THAT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO PUBLISH IT WITH AMAZON AND THEN MAYBE WITH A PRESS.

BECAUSE WE THINK IT WOULD BE MORE INTERESTING NOW TO GET IT OUT BECAUSE OF THE OPPENHEIMER MOVIE.

>>LORENE: ABSOLUTELY, THIS IS A WAVE THAT IS CRESTING.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND YOU HAVE SUCH A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE YOU WATCHED THE BIRTH OF LOS ALAMOS AND THE SECRET CITY AND ALL THAT STUFF.

WHEN I STARTED RESEARCHING YOU AND LOOKING AT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE DONE, I THOUGHT THIS IS FASCINATING STUFF.

AND BECAUSE OF THE FILM, I WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINION ON THIS.

SO IT HAS BEEN 78 YEARS SINCE THE TRINITY TEST.

>>ELLEN: YES.

>>LORENE: AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KIND OF NOT PAYING MUCH ATTENTION.

THE OPPENHEIMER FILM AND ALL THE OPPENHEIMER ENERGY IS MAKING PEOPLE THINK ABOUT AND I THINK I MENTIONED BEFORE THAT THE BOOK ON WHICH THE BOOK IS BASED, IS AMERICAN PROMETHEUS THE TRIUMPH AND TRAGEDY OF J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER AND IT IS WRITTEN BY KAI BIRD AND MARTIN SHERWIN.

IT IS A WONDERFUL BOOK THAT THEY BASED THE FILM ON, BUT THE TRAGEDY PART NOT ONLY BECAUSE HE MADE THIS CREATION THE LIKES OF WHICH THE WORLD HAD NEVER SEEN, BUT THEN TO HAVE HIS INTEGRITY BE THREATENED.

>>ELLEN: OH, HOW AWFUL.

>>LORENE: TO HAVE ALL SECURITY CLEARANCE WITHDRAWN.

>>ELLEN: OH THAT IS HORRIBLE.

>>LORENE: TO DISRESPECT HIM WITH A KANGAROO COURT, IT WITH THE HOUSE ON AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE, IT WAS THE MCCARTHY ERA.

HE DIDN'T DESERVE IT.

>>ELLEN: OH NO, IT WAS CRUEL AND I THINK IT JUST BROKE HIS HEART THAT HE HAD YOU KNOW VARIOUS DOUBTS, HE HAD THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT IT.

HE WAS NOT GOING TO BE A SUSPECT AND ALSO WE REALLY THOUGHT LOS ALAMOS THAT EDWARD TELLER WAS PRETTY MUCH THE DEVIL AND LATER... >>LORENE: BECAUSE OF THE HYDROGEN BOMB OR BECAUSE OF HOW HE ACTED.

>>ELLEN: BECAUSE OF HOW HE ACTED.

HE WOULD PUT THE NAILS IN THE COFFIN, OPPENHEIMER'S COFFIN.

>>LORENE: OH NO.

>>ELLEN: HE SAID HE WASN'T SURE HE COULD BE COMFORTABLE WITH THIS MAN, OPPENHEIMER, TO TRUST HIM WITH THESE SECRETS.

WELL, HE HAD ALWAYS WANTED TO RUN THE PROJECT HIMSELF AND HE THOUGHT HE COULD, YOU KNOW THEY GOT HIM TO COME BACK AND BUILD THE HYDROGEN BOMB.

WELL HE DIDN'T REALLY BUILD THE HYDROGEN BOMB, STAN ULUM FIGURED OUT THE FORMULA, BUT TELLER TOOK ALL THE CREDIT.

YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU COULD SAY HE HAD A BAD CHILDHOOD, YOU SORT OF HAVE TO GET OVER THIS AT THAT POINT, YOU DO NOT DO THAT.

BUT HE WAS VERY MUCH SHUNNED AT LOS ALAMOS, PEOPLE WOULD NOT SHAKE HANDS WITH HIM.

>>LORENE: WITH TELLER?

>>ELLEN: YES.

>>LORENE: AND YET HE DESTROYED THIS PERFECTLY, PROFESSIONAL JEALOUSY?

>>ELLEN: PROBABLY.

>>LORENE: IS ONE THE FATHER OF THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE OTHER IS THE FATHER OF THE HYDROGEN BOMB?

>>ELLEN: WELL TELLER WANTED TO BUILD THE HYDROGEN BOMB WHEN THEY WERE WORKING ON THE ATOMIC BOMB AND OPPENHEIMER SAID, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING, LET ALONE A WHOLE OTHER THING.

AND THEN AFTER THE WAR AND THE SOVIETS EXPLODED THEIR VERSION WAS PRETTY MUCH BASED ON FAT MAN EXCEPT IT HAD A RED NOSE,SO THEY WELL BETTER GET MAYBE THIS MYTHICAL THING, COULD IT BE DONE?

AND YOU NEED AN ATOMIC BOMB TO DETONATE A HYDROGEN BOMB.

THEY ARE HUGE AND LUCKILY NO ONE HAS USED ONE.

YOU KNOW AT FIRST IT WASN'T A DELIVERABLE WEAPON IT'S JUST AS BIG AS A BOXCAR.

WELL BOTH FAT MAN AND LITTLE BOY THEY HAVE TO FIT IN THE BOMB BAY OF THE PLANE.

>>LORENE: RIGHT YEAH.

YOU CAN'T PLACE A BOXCAR IN THE BAY.

>>ELLEN: WELL AND THOSE PLANES, THE B29S, THAT FLEW THOSE MISSIONS WERE SO NEARLY OVERLOADED THAT THEY WOULD RUN THE WHOLE RUNWAY AND JUST BARELY LIFT OFF.

AND THEY STRIPPED EVERYTHING OFF, THE ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS, EVERYTHING THEY COULD GET RID OF ON THE PLANE BECAUSE THE BOMBS WERE SO HEAVY, PARTICULARLY FAT MAN.

>>LORENE: WELL, I LOVE THAT THIS IS A TEACHING MOMENT FOR OUR COUNTRY.

BUT WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THE BOMBS AND THE FUTURE OF THE BOMBS.

AND I THINK THAT THIS WHOLE OPPENHEIMER MANIA IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

>>ELLEN: I HOPE SO, YEAH.

BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT ANY WAR AS YOU WATCH UKRAINE.

BUT THESE WEAPONS, I THINK OPPENHEIMER HOPED THAT IT WOULD BE SO TERRIBLE NO ONE WOULD EVER USE IT AGAIN AND TO SOME EXTENT WE HAVEN'T.

WE HAVE MORE, WE HAVE TOO MANY, THEY HAVE TOO MANY.

IT HAS BEEN THIS DELICATE DANCE THAT WE HAVE ALL ENGAGED IN FOR 78-80 YEARS WHATEVER.

IS IT A GOOD THING, NO.

AND POLITICS AND SCIENCE ARE SO DIFFERENT.

>>LORENE: THEY DO NOT SERVE THE SAME MASTER.

>>ELLEN: NO, NOT AT ALL.

WE ARE IN ANOTHER PRECARIOUS MOMENT WHERE... >>LORENE: AND YET THE PLUTONIUM PITS WHICH ARE NECESSARY FOR EACH BOMB ARE STILL BEING MANUFACTURED AT LOS ALAMOS.

>>ELLEN: WELL THEY AGE AND THEY... >>LORENE: OH, WELL, I AM GLAD TO KNOW THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE SO MANY OF THEM.

BECAUSE I LOOKED AT THE FIGURES AND I THOUGHT, WHY DO WE NEED MORE, I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THEY KIND OF AGE OUT.

>>ELLEN: THEY AGE OUT AND THEY WANT TO REDO THEM AND WE ARE BUILDING MORE.

I DON'T KNOW DOES IT MAKE ANY SENSE, THE MILITARY BUDGET THAT THEY GET APPROVED THEY HAVE A LOT OF MONEY.

AND WHETHER IT IS A GOOD OR BAD THING, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER WE DO THEN THE RUSSIANS OR WHOEVER WILL PROBABLY DO THE SAME THING.

WE HOPE NOBODY WILL EVER USE THEM BUT.

>>LORENE: ANOTHER ISSUE THAT I HAVE DONE A LOT OF SHOWS ABOUT IS WHAT TO DO WITH THE WASTE, THE SPENT FUEL RODS.

>>ELLEN: DOESN'T THAT MAKE YOU CRAZY?

>>LORENE: THEY WANTED, THE NATIONAL NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION WANTED TO SEND ALL THE SPENT FUEL RODS FROM ALL THE POWER PLANTS THAT ARE USING NUCLEAR FUEL TO STORE THEM IN NEW MEXICO.

>>ELLEN: IN CARLSBAD?

>>LORENE: YEAH, BUT NOT IN THE CAVERNS, NOT IN WIPP BUT IN ANOTHER ABOVE GROUND REPOSITORY IN LITTLE BOXES ON CONCRETE PADS, 10 THOUSAND OF THEM.

SO WE PASSED A LAW IN NEW MEXICO AND SENATOR JEFF STEINBORN HAS BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN THIS SAYING, PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN MATERIALS, THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ALL THE NUCLEAR WASTE AND WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A PLANT HERE THAT IS CREATING IT.

>>ELLEN: NO.

>>LORENE: WE MINE URANIUM HERE.

AND HE GOT A BILL PASSED WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO GO NOW AND REMEDIATE ALL THOSE URANIUM MINE TAILINGS.

>>ELLEN: OH THAT WOULD BE GOOD, BECAUSE THEY ARE MESSY.

>>LORENE: THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, WE WAITED FOR THE FEDS TO DO IT FOR 40 YEARS NOW, WE'RE JUST GOING TO DO IT.

YOU KNOW IT'S AN OCTOPUS SITUATION, MANY, MANY TENTACLES.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, YOU WOULD THINK THAT THEY COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DO SOMETHING WITH THAT.

AND I USED TO TALK WITH NORRIS BRADBURY ABOUT IT AND HE SAID, WELL, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULD PROBABLY SHOOT IT INTO THE SUN.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOODNESS.

>>ELLEN: I THOUGHT YOU COULD PUT IT IN A VOLCANO, BUT HE SAID THEY'RE NOT HOT ENOUGH.

BUT IT IS TOO EXPENSIVE APPARENTLY, TOO EXPENSIVE I DON'T KNOW, WHAT'S THE EXPENSE IT AT THIS POINT.

>>LORENE: I CAN'T IMAGINE SHOOTING A ROCKET AT THE SUN FULL OF NUCLEAR WASTE.

>>ELLEN: BUT THE SUN WOULD BURN IT UP.

YES.

>>LORENE: YES INDEED.

>>ELLEN: IT WOULD BE GONE.

>>LORENE: WELL, I AM SURE THAT THERE ARE MANY SCIENTISTS AND GENIUS PEOPLE WORKING ON THIS.

>>ELLEN: I HOPE, YEAH.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

SO IN THIS IMPORTANT TIME, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHERE WE ARE GOING AFTER 78 YEARS SINCE THE TRINITY TEST?

>>ELLEN: I DON'T KNOW BECAUSE THE TRINITY TEST, ONCE THAT WORKED, THE GENIE WAS OUT OF THE BOTTLE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: AND IT WON'T GO BACK IN.

SO, I DON'T, YOU WOULD HOPE THAT THESE FRAGILE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS WOULD BE BINDING AND HONORED BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE JUST GO ON FIGHTING BUT NOT WITH SUCH BIG WEAPONS OR SOMETHING.

THAT'S NOT GREAT BUT WOULD BE BETTER THAN USING ALL THE WEAPONS THAT ARE BIGGER AND WORSE AND HARDER TO REMEDIATE ANYTHING AFTERWARDS.

SO, I DON'T KNOW, WE HAVE GOTTEN INTO A PRETTY TRICKY PATCH.

>>LORENE: WE HAVE, NOT JUST WITH THE WEAPONS BUT WITH THE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, BECAUSE IN THE UKRAINE, THE RUSSIANS ARE GETTING VERY CLOSE TO BOMBING.

>>ELLEN: YES.

>>LORENE: A NUCLEAR ENERGY PLANT.

I WISH THESE ISSUES WERE A MATTER OF KNOWLEDGE AND EDUCATION AND REASON, BUT THEY ARE NOT.

SO WE JUST HAVE TO TRUST THAT GOOD SENSE AND THE DESIRE TO KEEP THE HUMAN RACE GOING WILL PREVAIL.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, I THINK, I HOPE SO, I MEAN IT IS SCARY, IT'S BEEN SCARY, IT WAS SCARY AT TRINITY.

YOU KNOW OF ALL THE THINGS PEOPLE SAID, BAINBRIDGE, WHO SORT OF GREAT FUNNY GUY AT ONE POINT, HE'S THE ONE WHO SAID, "WELL IT WORKED, NOW WE'RE ALL SONS OF BITCHES."

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

>>ELLEN: AND OPPENHEIMER QUOTED SOMETHING FROM THE BHAGAVAD GITA >>LORENE:YEAH, THE UNDEAD .

SO BETWEEN THOSE TWO ALTERNATIVES, FOLLOW THE SHADOW AND WE WILL.

I HOPE THAT WE HAVE A CHANCE TO REVISIT THIS.

I AM JUST SO GRATEFUL.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ELLEN BRADBURY REID.

WE'VE HAD WONDERFUL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT DOROTHY MCKIBBIN AND ABOUT J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER, AND I AM REALLY GLAD THE MOVIE IS OUT AND I KNOW THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT IT.

IT WAS A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY FOR THOSE MEN.

AND WE OWE HIM A LOT.

SO THANK YOU FOR COMING AND TALKING WITH US.

>>ELLEN: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: YOU BET.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING THE SECOND PART OF ELLEN BRADBURY REID DISCUSSION ABOUT EARLY ATOMIC ENERGY AND THE MANHATTAN PROJECT AND THE FUTURE.

I'M LORENE MILLS, REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM