REPORT FROM SANTA FE I S MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM HELLO, I'M LORRAINE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ELLEN BRADBURY REID, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ELLEN: WELL, AS I SAY, MY PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT'S GOING TO BE A PLEASURE FOR OUR AUDIENCE TOO, BECAUSE THIS WEEK IS THE PREMIER OF THE FILM, CHRIS NOLAN'S FILM ABOUT JAY ROBERT OPPENHEIMER.

AND IT'S BASED ON THE BOOK, AMERICAN PROMETHEUS BY KAI BIRD AND MARTIN SHERWIN.

AND NOW, IT'S JUST LIKE OPPENHEIMER FEVER EVERYBODY.

AND YESTERDAY WE'RE TAPING IN THE MIDDLE OF JULY, WAS THE 78TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE TRINITY TEST.

IT'S BEEN 78 YEARS WE HAVE BEEN DANCING THIS DANCE.

AND I DON'T THINK WE KNOW ALL THE STEPS YET, I JUST DON'T.

>>ELLEN: NO, BUT THE TRINITY TEST, THEY WERE NOT VERY SURE IT WOULD WORK AND THAT'S WHY THEY HAD TO TEST IT BECAUSE EVERYTHING, THE WAY THEY DETONATED THE PLUTONIUM.

THEY COULDN'T DETONATE PLUTONIUM AT FIRST, THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD WORK THE WAY URANIUM DID, BUT IT DIDN'T, AND IT DIDN'T DETONATE AND THEY HAD SPENT A LOT OF MONEY PRODUCING LITTLE TINY AMOUNTS OF PLUTONIUM.

AND WHEN IT DIDN'T DETONATE WITH WHAT WE CALL A GUN DETONATOR, WE JUST SMACK IT, THEY WENT INTO A FULL CRISIS AT THE LAB AT LOS ALAMOS.

OPPENHEIMER THOUGHT HE SHOULD RESIGN, IT WAS A TERRIBLE CRISIS AND SO THEY HAD AN IDEA, THEY WEREN'T VERY SURE IT WOULD WORK, THAT YOU COULD SQUEEZE PLUTONIUM IF YOU COULD SQUEEZE IT IN A UNIFORM WAY, AND SO THEY NEEDED HIGH EXPLOSIVES TO DO THAT.

AND SO NORRIS BRADBURY, WHO BECAME MY FATHER-IN-LAW, WENT AROUND THE COUNTRY LOOKING FOR EXPERTS IN HIGH EXPLOSIVES AND YOU KNOW, THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO SET OFF DYNAMITE, IT JUST EXPLODES, YOU DON'T CARE WHETHER IT'S HOT OR FAST OR SLOW, BUT THEY HAD TO KNOW A WHOLE LOT MORE ABOUT EXPLOSIVES AND SO... DO YOU WANT ME TO GO ON?

>>LORENE: YES, I WANT YOU TO TELL ME, YOU ARE UNDER THE PICTURE HERE, BECAUSE YOUR FATHER... >>ELLEN: DADDY, I DON'T REALLY THINK HE WAS, HE WAS A CHEMICAL ENGINEER, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT HE KNEW A LOT ABOUT HIGH EXPLOSIVES.

ANYWAY, HE WAS ONE OF THE MEN THAT NORRIS PICKED TO GO TO LOS ALAMOS, AND ONE OF THE THINGS OF THE MANY INTERESTING, STRANGE THINGS AT LOS ALAMOS WAS BOTH OPPENHEIMER AND GROVES DECIDED THAT THE MEN SHOULD HAVE THEIR FAMILIES BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK SO HARD.

WELL, THAT WAS A GOOD IDEA, BUT THEY NEVER HAD ENOUGH HOUSING, EVER.

AND SO AFTER DADDY AND THERE WERE SEVEN OTHER MEN, THEY GOT THERE, THEN MY FATHER AND SOMEONE HE HAD JUST MET SAID, WHY DON'T WE GET OUR WIVES AND KIDS TO DRIVE OUT.

NOW, THIS MUST HAVE BEEN SPRING OF 45, IS THAT RIGHT?

ANYWAY, SO THAT WE HAD FOUR KIDS UNDER FIVE, TWO WOMEN AND A TEENAGE BOY WHO KNEW HOW TO CHANGE TIRES IN A BUICK ROADMASTER GOING TO A PLACE THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE IT WAS.

AND SO WE DROVE ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND ENDED UP AT 109 EAST PALACE AND DOROTHY MCKIBBIN, DOROTHY SAID, OH, OH DEAR, WE DON'T HAVE ANY HOUSING RIGHT NOW.

THERE WAS NO HOUSING SO, THEY FIRST THOUGHT MAYBE THAT WE SHOULD STAY IN ALBUQUERQUE AT THE DE ANZA HOTEL.

WELL, IT WAS HOT, IT WAS DUSTY, THERE WAS NO PLACE TO COOK AND THEN YOU HAVE ALL THESE LITTLE KIDS, YOU KNOW, UNHAPPY AND BORED.

NO TELEVISION, OF COURSE, ANYWAY, SO AFTER TWO WEEKS OF THAT, OUR PARENTS DECIDED, THEY HAD HEARD THAT THERE WERE CABINS IN BANDELIER, WHICH THERE WERE, BUT THEY HAD CLOSED THEM MAYBE BECAUSE IT WAS TOO CLOSE TO S SITE.

SO THEY HAD EMPTY HOUSING WITH NOBODY IN IT, SO THAT SEEMED VERY PROMISING AND DIDN'T WORK.

AND THEN THEY THOUGHT, WHY DON'T WE JUST BUY TENTS AND CAMP DOWN HERE, IT'S BEAUTIFUL DOWN HERE AND THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

SO WE CAMPED FOR FOUR MONTHS IN BANDELIER.

>>LORENE: AND YOUR MOM DID ALL HER COOKING ON THE CAMPFIRE?

>>ELLEN: YES SHE DID, AND WE JUST PLAYED IN THE CREEK AND WANDERED AROUND THE RUINS BECAUSE IT WAS CLOSED.

>>LORENE: SO YOU WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE THERE.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, WE WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE.

WELL, THERE WAS A SHEPHERD WHO LIVED FAR AWAY AND THE SKUNKS HAD GOTTEN IN HIS TENT AND HE YELLED AT THEM AND THEY SPRAYED HIM.

SO WE WERE VERY IMPRESSED WITH WHAT HAPPENED, THE SMELL WAS PRETTY PUNGENT.

>>LORENE: SO WHERE DID HE STAY?

>>ELLEN: HE JUST STAYED IN THE TENT WITH THE SKUNKS.

>>LORENE: ANYWAY, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

BUT WHAT IS AMAZING TO ME IS, TALK ABOUT WHO CHOSE TO SET UP THE LAB AND WHY HE CHOSE WHERE IT WAS.

>>ELLEN: OH, WELL THAT'S OPPENHEIMER AND OPPENHEIMER AS A 19, 20-YEAR-OLD HAD SORT OF POOR HEALTH, WEAK LUNGS AND YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU COULD DO WAS GO OUT TO THE DRY SOUTHWEST.

HE STOPPED SMOKING, I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS ALREADY SMOKING, BUT HE DIDN'T STOP SMOKING AND HE STAYED AT A PLACE CALLED LOS PINOS, WHICH IS UP IN PECOS, UP PRETTY HIGH AND JUST FELL IN LOVE WITH THE MOUNTAINS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE BEAUTIFUL.

AND SO HE AND HIS BROTHER BOUGHT A CABIN AND IT'S A REALLY NICE CABIN, MAYBE BUILT BY A SWISS OR GERMAN, I MEAN, IT HAS DOVETAIL JOINTS.

IT'S NOT LIKE A NEW MEXICO CABIN.

SO OPPENHEIMER KNEW THE AREA PRETTY WELL AND HE'D RIDDEN HORSES ALL THROUGH AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, THAT ONE OF THE THINGS HE WOULD LOVE TO DO WOULD BE COMBINE HIS LOVE OF PHYSICS AND NEW MEXICO AND HERE IT WAS SO HE COULD COMBINE THOSE TWO THINGS.

SO HE WAS PRETTY FAMILIAR WITH, NOT SUPER FAMILIAR, BUT PRETTY FAMILIAR AND HE KNEW ABOUT THE BOYS SCHOOL.

AND WHEN THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO LOCATE WHAT THEY THOUGHT WOULD BE A SMALL LABORATORY, THERE WAS A LIST AND JEMEZ SPRINGS WAS ON THE LIST.

SO THEY WENT AND LOOKED AT JEMEZ SPRINGS WITH GENERAL GROVES AND OPPENHEIMER AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE.

AND GROVE SAID, LOOK, THERE'S NO WAY YOU KNOW TO PUT A SECURITY PARAMETER HERE, AND YOU'D BE TOO CROWDED, THERE'S NO WAY TO EXPAND.

LITTLE DID HE KNOW HOW MUCH THEY WOULD HAVE TO EXPAND.

AND OPPENHEIMER SORT OF SAW HIS CHANCE, AND HE SAID, WELL, IF WE JUST GO OVER THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAINS.

>>LORENE: THERE'S A SCHOOL THERE.

>>ELLEN: AND THEY LOOKED AT THE MESAS WITH THE FINGERS OF THE MESAS AND THOUGHT, WELL, WE COULD ISOLATE, AS THEY DID, SOME OF THE LABS ON THE MESAS.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW, THEY THOUGHT PERHAPS ENOUGH, YOU KNOW, THERE WEREN'T ENOUGH BUILDINGS, BUT THERE WAS SOMETHING THERE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, SO HOW DID THEY KEEP IT SECRET?

>>ELLEN: YOU KNOW THAT THEY REALLY DID, WE HAD A FENCE AND I GOT A SECURITY CLEARANCE WHEN I WAS SIX, YOU KNOW, AS I THOUGHT, WELL, IF I HAD KNOWN THE SECRET, I WAS CERTAINLY WILLING TO TELL, BUT NO ONE EVER ASKED ME.

>>LORENE: BUT HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT THE SECRET?

>>ELLEN: WELL, BECAUSE WE WERE THROWING ROCKS AT FISH, WE LIVED BY THE LITTLE STREAM AND WE LEARNED WE COULD JUST WADE IN THE STREAM AND PICK THE FISH UP.

WE COULDN'T SEE WHY ANYBODY WOULD USE A FISHING POLE, YOU JUST REACH IN UNDER A ROCK AND YOU PICK THE FISH UP.

ONCE WE EVEN TRIED WITH A STRING ON A POLE AND WE THOUGHT THIS IS REALLY STUPID, THIS DOESN'T WORK AT ALL.

JUST GET BACK IN THE WATER.

ANYWAY, WE WERE ONE DAY LOOKING AT ALTERNATE WAYS OF GETTING FISH AND THROWING ROCKS AT THE FISH, AND MY BROTHER THREW A ROCK AND HIT MY THUMB THAT WAS ON ANOTHER ROCK.

IT WAS A SUNDAY, NOW THEY WORKED, YOU KNOW, SIX DAYS A WEEK AND SOMETIMES SUNDAY AFTERNOON, BUT DADDY WAS HOME AND MY THUMB WAS ALL SMASHED AND BLEEDING.

SO HE TRIED TO TAKE ME TO THE HOSPITAL AT LOS ALAMOS, WHICH WOULD BE UP, YOU KNOW, UP THE HILL AND THROUGH THE BACK GATE.

WELL, THE GUARD AT THE BACK GATE WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN 18, HE WOULDN'T LET ME IN BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE A PASS AND FINALLY, MY FATHER GOT REALLY UPSET AND THE GUY FINALLY SAID, JUST GO ON.

AND I SAID TO DADDY, YOU KNOW, WHY WOULDN'T HE LET ME IN?

HE SAID, WELL, BECAUSE WE'RE DOING SOMETHING VERY SECRET, HAS TO BE A SECRET, AND THEY'RE PROTECTING IT.

AND I THOUGHT, I'LL FIND OUT WHAT IT IS, AND I WILL TELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S NICE TO KEEP A LITTLE KID WITH A SMASHED-UP THUMB.

ANYWAY, WHEN WE GOT UP THERE, YOU KNOW, THERE'RE JUST ALL THESE BUILDINGS AND FENCES, BUT THERE WAS A POND AND THEY HAD 11 DUCKS ON IT AND I THOUGHT, WELL THAT'S GOT TO BE IT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE UP HERE THAT'S VERY INTERESTING.

AND THEY HAD A LOT OF FENCES AROUND IT, SO I WAS CONVINCED THAT WAS IT, ELEVEN DUCKS.

THEY FIXED MY THUMB, I MEAN, THE IDEA THAT YOU GET A SECURITY CLEARANCE WHEN YOU'RE SIX, IT'S CRAZY, BUT THAT WAS WHAT WE ALL DID.

FINGERPRINTED, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING.

>>LORENE: YOU WERE QUITE YOUNG WHEN YOU FIRST MET OPPENHEIMER.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, I WAS, OF COURSE I HAD HEARD ABOUT OPPENHEIMER AND HE WAS, YOU KNOW, VERY MUCH REVERED AND I WAS PROBABLY, I DON'T KNOW, 14 OR SOMETHING WHEN MAYBE YOUNGER WHEN THEY WENT THROUGH THE HEARINGS AND HE LOST HIS CLEARANCE.

I DIDN'T HAVE A REALLY CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT ALL OF THE NASTY POLITICS OF ALL OF THAT WERE, BUT BY ACCIDENT I HAD A FRIEND WHO THEY HIRED, AN EIGHTH GRADER, TO SHOW THE FILMS OF NAGASAKI AND HIROSHIMA.

THEY'RE JUST RAW, UNEDITED FOOTAGE.

>>LORENE: BUT THEY'RE GHASTLY.

>>ELLEN: OH, THEY'RE HORRIBLE.

PEOPLE WALKING AROUND WITH WITH KIMONO BURNS, YOU KNOW, REVERSE BURNS.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: I WAS, SO, I THOUGHT THAT MAYBE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY DROPPED THE BOMBS.

SO I WANDERED AROUND, MAYBE ONLY IN LOS ALAMOS, COULD YOU DO THIS AND TALK TO PEOPLE'S FATHERS, DID YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?

AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY TALKED TO ME AND SOMETIMES THEY SORT OF BLEW ME OFF, BUT A LOT OF TIMES THEY SAID, WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD TALK TO OPPENHEIMER.

HE HAD LOST HIS CLEARANCE AND WASN'T THERE, BUT HE CAME BACK ONE SUMMER, AND THEY HAD, THE BRADBURYS, HAD A BIG COCKTAIL PARTY FOR HIM, ANYWAY HE WAS STANDING ALONE IN THE LIVING ROOM, AND I WAS PASSING DEVILED EGGS OR CARROT STICKS, YOU KNOW SOMETHING AND SO I THOUGHT, WELL, OKAY.

AND I WENT OVER, AND I SAID, WOULD YOU LIKE WHATEVER IT WAS AND THEN I HAD MY LITTLE SPEECH, WHICH WAS, I THINK YOU'RE SOME SORT OF A SAINT.

AND HE WAS VERY SHOCKED, AND I COULD SEE HE WAS SHOCKED.

YOU KNOW, HERE'S HIS LITTLE NUMB SKULL WEARING A FLUFFY PINK DRESS, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK HE'S SOMETHING.

HE SAID, WHY WOULD YOU EVER SAY THAT TO ME AND I SAID, BECAUSE YOU HAD SECOND THOUGHTS.

AND HE PICKED HIS HAT UP OFF THE PIANO AND WALKED OUT.

I HADN'T MEANT TO HURT HIM, YOU KNOW, IT SORT OF DIDN'T SEEM TO ME, MAYBE HE WAS A REAL PERSON OR SOMETHING, BUT I HAD MY LITTLE SPEECH AND I WAS WORRIED ABOUT WHAT I HAD SEEN.

AND, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT GOING INTO ALL THE COMPLEX REASONS, IT'S VERY SHOCKING TO SEE WHAT WAR DOES TO PEOPLE.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

>>ELLEN: AND SO I WAS WORRIED ABOUT IT.

AND I GUESS WE ARE STILL.

>>LORENE: I GUESS WE STILL ARE.

THERE ARE THREE WOMEN.

I'D LIKE TO SPEND A LITTLE TIME TALKING ABOUT.

EDITH WARNER, PEGGY POND CHURCH, AND DOROTHY MCKIBBIN.

AND ALSO, I'M GOING TO TAKE A MINUTE AND REINTRODUCE YOU BECAUSE OUR GUEST IS ELLEN BRADBURY-REID, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EARLY LOS ALAMOS.

SO THERE WERE THREE WOMEN THAT WERE REALLY PIVOTAL TO WHAT HAPPENED.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT EACH ONE OF THEM.

>>ELLEN: WELL, I KNEW PEGGY POND CHURCH, BUT NOT VERY WELL, BUT I CERTAINLY KNEW MS. WARNER AND KNEW DOROTHY MCKIBBIN VERY, VERY WELL.

I LIVED WITH HER, SHE'S MY DAUGHTER'S GODMOTHER.

>>LORENE: I LOVE HER.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

SO SHE'S REALLY WONDERFUL.

AND I THINK, WELL JUST TO START WITH MS. WARNER, BECAUSE SHE HAD, BEFORE THE WAR, SHE WAS LIVING PROBABLY ON CRACKERS, BUT YOU KNOW, A LITTLE TEA ROOM AND THE TRAIN, THAT WAS A CHILI LINE.

THE ORIGINAL CHILI LINE, YOU KNOW, CAME UP BUCKMAN CANYON, CROSSED THE RIVER AT OTOWI, AND THEN ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER, SORT OF HEADED TOWARD ESPANOLA.

AND THE TRAIN, APPARENTLY, WE HEARD FROM PEOPLE WHO HAD RIDDEN THE TRAIN WAS SO SLOW THAT YOU COULD GET OFF AND WALK BESIDE THE TRAIN FOR A WHILE.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOSH.

>>ELLEN: IF YOU GOT BORED.

SO, THE TRAIN WAS NOT RUNNING AT THAT, THEY TOOK THE TRACKS UP, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE, THEY MAYBE SHIPPED THEM TO BURMA, BECAME THE BURMA ROAD, I DON'T KNOW.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS, WHAT A CONNECTION.

>>ELLEN: BUT YOU KNOW THE RAILROAD BRIDGE WAS STILL THERE.

ANYWAY, SO MS. WARNER HAD BEEN ACTING AS A SORT OF MAIL STOP, THE TRAIN COULD DROP OFF MAIL FOR THE BOYS' SCHOOL AND SHE HAD A GAS PUMP AND SHE LIVED WITH THIS INDIAN AND OLDER GUY, TILANO.

AND OPPENHEIMER HAD MET HER BEFORE IN JUST RIDING AROUND NEW MEXICO, AND ONE OF THE MANY INADVERTENT THINGS THAT HAPPENED WAS HE KNEW THAT, YOU KNOW, LOS ALAMOS, WE GOT MAIL IN SANTA FE AT PO BOX 1663, WHERE THERE WERE 80 BABIES BORN THE FIRST YEAR.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: IN A PO BOX AT AN ELITE BOYS SCHOOL.

SO SHE WAS OUT OF HER MAIL JOB, AND SO OPPIE THOUGHT MAYBE SHE COULD SERVE DINNER TO THE, SOME OF THE SCIENTISTS, NO ONE KNEW HOW MANY PEOPLE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE.

BUT SHE HAD A GARDEN, A VEGETABLE GARDEN THAT SHE AND TILANO TOOK CARE OF.

SO, AND IT WAS REALLY PRETTY THERE WHERE THE RIVER USED TO MAKE A BIG OXBOW AND THEN GO INTO WHITE ROCK CANYON AND THERE WERE WILLOWS AND THE BIRDS DOWN THERE, IT WAS SOMETHING THE ARMY ENGINEERS DID AWAY WITH.

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT HELPED ANYTHING, BUT SO THAT HOUSE WAS, I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, A SANCTUARY WAY.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: IT WAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED AND SHE HAD LEARNED AND LOVED TO LIVE WITH THE PEOPLE AT SAN ILDEFONSO, SHE WASN'T IN THE PUEBLO.

THAT, I THINK, ALWAYS WAS A KIND OF LITTLE MAGIC CHARMED SPOT.

AND THAT OPPENHEIMER WAS VERY GOOD AT PICKING UP ON THAT KIND OF THING.

THEN AS THE POPULATION GREW, THERE WERE MAYBE SOMETIMES SHE WOULD COOK DINNER THREE DAYS A WEEK OR SOMETHING, FOR THE PEOPLE FROM LOS ALAMOS WHO COULD CALL NOW THAT SHE HAD A TELEPHONE.

BECAUSE WHEN DOROTHY MCKIBBIN STARTED HER OFFICE SHE HAD TWO TELEPHONES, BIG DEAL.

AND SHE SAID ONE NEVER WORKED, IT WAS A FOREST SERVICE LINE, IT NEVER WORKED.

BUT, MS. WARNER MUST HAVE HAD A TELEPHONE BECAUSE THERE WAS NO WAY TO, YOU KNOW, GET IN TOUCH WITH HER, YOU KNOW, SO AND SO WOULD LIKE TO COME.

>>LORENE: TO MAKE RESERVATIONS.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

SO SHE HAD TO KNOW WHO SHE WAS RELYING ON.

>>LORENE: SO SHE OPERATED THIS CHARMING TEA HOUSE.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, THAT WAS TINY, TINY ROOMS.

>>LORENE: AND IT WAS FREQUENTED BY THE NATIVE AMERICAN LEADERS.

>>ELLEN: WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY EVER CAME OR NOT.

>>LORENE: OH, REALLY.

>>ELLEN: NO.

>>LORENE: SHE HAD A FEW FRIENDS THAT WERE.

>>ELLEN: OH, YEAH, SHE HAD A LOT OF FRIENDS IN PUEBLO AND TILANO.

>>LORENE: AND THEN OF COURSE, THE SCIENTISTS FROM THE LAB WOULD WANT TO GET OFF THE HILL.

>>ELLEN: AND COME DOWN AND HAVE I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WAS A QUAKER, BUT I SORT OF DOUBT THAT SHE SERVED WINE, I DON'T REALLY KNOW.

BUT SHE WAS A VERY GOOD COOK, REALLY INGENIOUS AND GOOD AND SHE MADE, OF COURSE, THIS FAMOUS CHOCOLATE CAKE.

YOU KNOW, THE HOUSE IS STILL THERE, BUT IT HAD A PORCH, MAYBE 10 FEET, MAYBE AS BIG AS THIS ROOM, THAT WAS COVERED WITH VIRGINIA CREEPER, SO IT WAS REALLY COOL.

IN THE SUMMER YOU COULD SIT OUT ON THE SCREENED IN PORCH AND THEN IN THE WINTER THERE WAS A ROOM WITH A TABLE, MAYBE YOU COULD SERVE EIGHT, SIX, IT WASN'T VERY BIG.

BUT SHE MADE EVERYTHING FROM SCRATCH, I THINK YOU HAD TO THEN.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, SUCH A PURIST, BUT SHE HAD BEEN THERE LONG ENOUGH THAT SHE UNDERSTOOD HOW TO SORT OF LIVE IN THAT LAND, AND SHE WALKED AND RODE ALL AROUND.

SO SHE KNEW THE AREA VERY, VERY WELL.

AND YOU KNOW, SHE'S STILL WITHIN SAN ILDEFONSO RESERVATION, WHICH GOES TO TOTAVI, WHICH IS A GAS STATION NOW AS YOU GO UP TO LOS ALAMOS.

>>LORENE: WELL, SHE WAS AN INTRIGUING FIGURE BECAUSE IN A WAY SHE WOULD BRIDGE THE OLD WORLD IN THE NATIVE AMERICAN AND THE SCIENTISTS COMING DOWN.

>>ELLEN: YEAH >>LORENE: AND THEY HAD SO MUCH RESPECT FOR HER, YOU KNOW, BOTH SIDES.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND SO, SHE KIND OF BECAME A LEGENDARY FIGURE.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, SHE REALLY WAS.

AND SHE WROTE THESE LOVELY CHRISTMAS LETTERS OF ALL OF HER THOUGHTS, BUT SHE REALLY LOVED THE LAND AND THE LANDSCAPE, AND SHE KNEW HOW TO FIT INTO IT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS COMFORTABLE FOR HER AND IT WAS COMFORTABLE FOR EVERYBODY ELSE.

AND TILANO, WHO WE KNEW BETTER, BECAUSE I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE WOULD SAY TO TILANO, WE'LL TAKE THE KIDS DOWN TO THE RIVER, AND YOU KNOW WHAT WE'D FALL IN OR SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE DID.

BUT TILANO WAS SHOWING AND LATER, I MARRIED JOHN BRADBURY.

WE HAVE AN AXE THAT TILANO MADE FOR HIM, SO HE WAS LEARNING HOW TO HEFT THE STONE AXE AND OUR FATHERS WERE BUILDING THE ATOMIC BOMB.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: IT SORT OF MAYBE CAME FULL CIRCLE.

>>LORENE: THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END.

>>ELLEN: BUT IT ALL SEEMED, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS, BECAUSE I THINK OUR PARENTS THOUGHT SHE WAS SPECIAL, AS KIDS WE THOUGHT SHE WAS SPECIAL TOO.

AND SHE WAS.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELLEN: SHE REALLY WAS.

>>LORENE: IT HAS BEEN SO WONDERFUL TO GO IN SO DEEP.

I THINK WE'LL TALK ABOUT PEGGY POND CHURCH AND IF YOU HAVE TIME, WE'LL DO A SECOND PART ABOUT DOROTHY MCKIBBIN.

>>ELLEN: I DIDN'T KNOW PEGGY POND CHURCH VERY WELL.

>>LORENE: BUT SHE DID WRITE ABOUT... >>ELLEN: OH YEAH, SHE WROTE, WELL, SHE TOOK.

MS. WARNER'S LETTERS, HER CHRISTMAS LETTERS AND OTHER LETTERS, I MEAN, THEY WROTE EACH OTHER AMAZING AMOUNTS THAT, YOU KNOW, NOW WE LOSE ALL OUR EMAILS AND THERE'S NO RECORD, BUT THAT THESE WERE REALLY LETTERS THEY WROTE, THOUGHTFUL LETTERS BACK AND FORTH.

EVEN LIKE MS. WARNER WOULD WRITE TO, THEN MY MOTHER-IN-LAW LOIS BRADBURY.

THEY WROTE LONG LETTERS BACK AND FORTH, YOU KNOW, WHERE WE WOULD NEVER TAKE THE TIME TO WRITE A LETTER THAT WELL THOUGHT OUT TOO.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

NOW WITH EMAILS.

>>ELLEN: YEAH, IT ALL JUST BLOWS AWAY, IT'S JUST GONE.

>>LORENE: BUT JUST ONE THING ABOUT PEGGY POND CHURCH WROTE THIS BOOK, THE HOUSE AT OTOWI BRIDGE , THE STORY OF EDITH WARNER AND LOS ALAMOS.

AND IT'S A LOVELY, LOVELY BOOK.

ANOTHER ONE ALSO, FRANK WATERS WROTE THE WOMAN AT OTOWI CROSSING ABOUT EDITH WARNER.

SO IT'S JUST BEAUTIFUL TO SEE THE IMPACT THAT SHE HAD, THAT KIND OF KEPT RESONATING AND HERE EVEN NOW, ALL THESE YEARS LATER.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: PEOPLE ARE STILL, NOW THERE IS A BOOK, A COMPILATION OF HER OWN WRITINGS, LOVELY VIGNETTES ABOUT EACH SUMMER AND THE RIVER.

VERY WELL WRITTEN WITH A LOVING EYE.

>>ELLEN: YEAH.

SHE REALLY DID.

YOU KNOW, SHE WAS OUTSIDE THE MOLD OF WOMEN, WELL, SO WAS DOROTHY MCKIBBIN, MAYBE BECAUSE THEY, WELL, EDITH WARNER NEVER MARRIED AND DOTTIE HAD BEEN MARRIED AND HER HUSBAND WAS GASSED IN WORLD WAR I, I THINK.

SO SHE WAS A WIDOW WHEN DOROTHY MCKIBBIN CAME TO SANTA FE.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

WAS THERE MUCH OVERLAP BETWEEN?

>>ELLEN: YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY THE HOUSE AT OTOWI BRIDGE IS DEDICATED TO DOROTHY MCKIBBIN.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT UNTIL RECENTLY.

>>LORENE: OH, THAT'S WONDERFUL.

>>ELLEN: AND I THOUGHT, OH MY GOSH.

>>LORENE: I THINK OF ALL THESE GRAND LADIES, YOU KNOW.

I JUST THINK HOW LUCKY WE ARE.

I THINK I WAS SPEAKING WITH YOU ON THE PHONE, I SAID, ALL THESE WOMEN THAT HAVE WRITTEN ALL THIS WONDERFUL STUFF, AND YOU SAID, TELL ME WHAT YOU SAID.

>>ELLEN: I DON'T KNOW.

>>LORENE: YOU SAID THE MEN WEREN'T ALLOWED TO TALK.

>>ELLEN: WELL, THAT'S TRUE, THEY DIDN'T, NO.

YOU WANT TO STOP THE WOMEN FROM TALKING?

>>LORENE: HOW COULD YOU?

>>ELLEN: I DON'T THINK SO, NO.

>>LORENE: SO ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO GET INTO IN OUR SECOND HALF IS THE ISSUE OF SPIES AND WHAT WAS GOING ON THEN.

BUT WHEN YOU WERE LITTLE, WASN'T YOUR AMBITION TO BE A SPY?

>>ELLEN: OH, YES, YES, BECAUSE I KNEW THE SECRET.

>>LORENE: AND NOT THE 11 DUCKS.

>>ELLEN: YES, THAT WAS THE SECRET.

AND SO WHEN WE GOT A HOUSE, FINALLY, WE LIVED IN THE TENT FROM MAY TILL MID-SEPTEMBER, AND THEN WE GOT A HOUSE AND I'M SURE MY MOTHER WAS VERY HAPPY.

IT HAD A BATHROOM, IT HAD BEDROOMS, THEY WERE LITTLE, BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S OKAY.

>>LORENE: RUNNING WATER.

>>ELLEN: HAD ONE OF EVERYTHING.

BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS AT THE END OF A LITTLE STREET NEAR THE FENCE, AND SO I THOUGHT I HAD BETTER TELL MY SECRET SO I COULD GET MY SECURITY CLEARANCE AND LIVE WITH MY FAMILY BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER OTHER SPIES HAD THIS PROBLEM.

BUT I DID WANT TO LIVE WITH MY FAMILY, SO I WANTED TO GET MY CLEARANCE, BUT I DID WANT TO TELL MY SECRET TOO.

AND I USED TO SIT BESIDE THE FENCE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A HUGE FENCE AROUND LOS ALAMOS AND IT WAS PATROLLED ON THE OUTSIDE WITH HORSEBACK PATROL.

ON THE INSIDE THEY HAD MPS WHO WERE PROBABLY 18 OR 17, AND THEIR JOB WAS JUST TO DRIVE AROUND AND SOMETIMES THEY'D PICK US UP AND SOMETIMES THEY'D BUY US ICE CREAM.

ANYWAY, I'M SITTING BY THE FENCE.

AND THE MPS WOULD COME BY AND THEY'D SAY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING LITTLE GIRL, NOTHING.

CAUSE I COULDN'T TELL HIM I WAS A SPY, THAT WOULDN'T WORK.

AND FINALLY I GOT TIRED OF IT AND I THOUGHT, WELL THIS IS, YOU KNOW, NOT GOING ANYWHERE AND I GOT MY LITTLE BROTHER WHO'S THREE YEARS YOUNGER AND I PUSHED HIM INTO A CULVERT THAT WENT UNDER THE FENCE BECAUSE I WANTED HIM TO GO FIND SOMEBODY I COULD TELL MY SECRET TO.

WELL, HE GOT STUCK IN THE CULVERT, HE GOT HIS KNEES AND HIS ELBOWS, AND HE STARTED TO CRY AND I THOUGHT, OH, THIS ISN'T GOOD.

AND PRETTY SOON MOTHER CAME AND SHE COULDN'T GET HIM OUT, THEN DADDY CAME, THAT WAS REALLY NOT GOOD, THEN THE SECURITY GUARDS CAME AND FINALLY MY FATHER JUST GRABBED HIM BY THE FEET AND PULLED HIM OUT OF THE CULVERT.

AND I THOUGHT, I KNOW HE'S GOING TO TELL ON ME, I KNOW HE'S GOING TO TELL, BUT HE DIDN'T.

HE WAS CRYING SO HARD THAT HE NEVER DID.

BUT I THOUGHT, OKAY, THAT'S IT FOR ESPIONAGE, THIS IS TOO ISN'T WORKING OUT.

SO I SORT OF ABANDONED SPYING.

>>LORENE: ABANDONED THEIR CHILDHOOD...WELL, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE UP, IN PART TWO, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE UP THE WHOLE ISSUE WITH SPIES.

THE LA FONDA BAR AND ALL THESE WONDERFUL SPY STORIES.

SO THANK YOU.

OUR GUEST FOR THE FIRST HALF TODAY IS ELLEN BRADBURY-REID.

I LOVE THESE STORIES, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>ELLEN: OKAY.

>>LORENE: I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR AUDIENCE OF ELLEN BRADBURY-REID'S RECOLLECTIONS OF EARLY LOS ALAMOS AND THE BEGINNING OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM