>> ALMANAC IS A PRODUCTION OF PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.

>> Cathy: THE U OF M IT LOOKING FOR A NEW PRESIDENT, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT.

WE'LL DEBATE THE PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE BILL, EXPLORE THE POLITICS OF THE EITH ELLISON TAKEOVER OF THE HENNEPIN COUNTY MURDER CASE, TALK TO DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, ALL OF THAT AND AN IRON RANGE STORY BY MARY LAHAMMER.

>> ISN'T JUST FIGHTS FOR THE REGION, FIGHTS FOR THE PEOPLE, BUT WORKS TOGETHER.

>> THAT'S COMING UP ON "ALMANAC."

♪♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY... GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING WHOLESALE POWER TO 28 MINNESOTA ELECTRIC COOPERATIVES.

DELTA DENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION: IMPROVING ORAL HEALTH WHILE ADVANCING SOCIAL EQUITIES.

DELTADENTALMN.ORG/TPT.

THE SHAKOPEE MDEWAKANTON SIOUX COMMUNITY: A TRIBAL NATION FOCUSED ON COMMUNITY AND COLLABORATION, ESPECIALLY IN TIMES LIKE TODAY.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA, THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

MORE AT EDUCATIONMINNESOTA.ORG.

ONE GREATER MINNESOTA REPORTING ON "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE OTTO BREMER TRUST WHOSE MISSION IS INVESTING IN PEOPLE, PLACES, AND OPPORTUNITIES IN OUR REGION.

>> Cathy: IN JUST A FEW MINUTES WE'LL BRING YOU A DEBATE OVER PAID FAMILY LEAVE, DR. MIKE OSTERHOLM WILL JOIN US AT THE TABLE IN STUDIO AND SHELETTA BRUNDIDGE WILL MAKE YOU LAUGH.

BUT FIRST UP BIG NEWS FROM THE HENNEPIN COUNTY LEGAL WORLD.

>> WE START TONIGHT WITH THE STORY OF ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON TAKING OVER THE PROSECUTION OF A HENNEPIN COUNTY MURDER.

HERE'S SOME QUICK BACKGROUND.

ELLISON DISAGREED WITH THE CHARGING STRATEGY OF HENNEPIN COUNTY ATTORNEY MARY MORIARTY IN A JUVENILE CASE INVOLVING JUVENILE SUSPECTS.

GOVERNOR WALZ -- MINUTEPOST DOM ABOUT HOW ELLISON'S STANCE HAS CHANGED SINCE LAST OCTOBER ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.

HE - DURING THE CAMPAIGN, ELLISON DEFENDED THE RIGHT OF COUNTY ATTORNEYS TO HAVE INDEPENDENCE AND HIS OPPONENT JIM SCHULTZ SAID I'M GOING TO GO IN THERE TO HENNEPIN COUNTY AND CLEAN THINGS UP.

>> YEAH, REPUBLICAN JIM SCHULTZ ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL TALKED ABOUT WANTING TO AGGRESSIVELY PROSECUTE DIAGRAM AND IF NEED BE IN HIS VIEW GO INTO COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICES AND PROSECUTE WHERE HE FELT THEY WEREN'T BEING TOUGH ENOUGH.

THIS WAS AN IDEA THAT KEITH ELLISON REALLY SPOKE OUT AGAINST.

HE SAID JIM SCHULTZ IN AN INTERVIEW WITH ME ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, HE SAID JIM SCHULTZ WAS TRYING TO STOMP ALL OVER COUNTY PROSECUTORS, HE SAID COUNTY PROSECUTORS DON'T WORK FOR ME, WE WORK TOGETHER.

SO HE SORT OF AMADE A POINT OF SAYING THEY SHOULD HAVE SORT OF AUTONOMY TO PURSUE THESE CASES AND ESPECIALLY TO KEEP A GOOD RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COUNTY ATTORNEYS AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE HE SHOULDN'T STEP IN.

HAS JIM SCHULTZ ALSO FLOATED A LAW CHANGE TO SAY PERHAPS HE COULD GO IN ON CASES WITHOUT PERMISSION OF COUNTY ATTORNEY OR THE GOVERNOR AND OF COURSE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN AND HE DIDN'T GET ELECTED BUT KEITH ELLISON SPOKE OUT AGAINST THAT AS WELL.

>> SO ELLISON KIND OF HAS FLIP-FLOPPED HERE, WHAT ARE APPLICABLES BEHIND THIS?

>> WELL, HE DID ENDORSE MARY MOREORTRY AND WHAT HE SAID IN THIS CASE WAS JUST THAT HE FELT THAT THE PROSECUTORIAL DECISIONS WAS SO FAR OUTSIDE OF THE NORM AND COMMUNITY EXPECTATIONS, HE WAS AT A LISTENING SESSION WITH THE FAMILY RECENTLY AND THEY'D BEEN SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THIS.

AND HE SAID HE THINKS IT SHOULD BE A RARE MOVE FOR HIM TO DO THIS SORT OF THING AND HE TALKED ABOUT HE HAS RESPECT FOR THE VOTERS OF HENNEPIN COUNTY BUT HE JUST FELT LIKE HIS WAS KIND OF STRAYING TOO FAR AND THAT'S WHY HE WANTED TO STEP IN.

AND IN FACT HE DID ASK MARY MOREARTRY FIRST IF HE CAN STEP IN AND SHE ECLINED, THAT'S WHEN HE WENT TO GOVERNOR WALZ TO ASK FOR PERMISSION.

>> DO YOU THINK BIG PICTURE MORIARTY AND ELLISON AS THAT MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE IN VIEW OF PROSECUTORS IN US CASES OR JUST AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT >> I GUESS WE'LL HAVE TO FIND OUT.

THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER CONTROVERSIAL DECISIONS BY MOREARTRY AND HE ISN'T STEPPED IN IN THE SAME WAY.

I TALKED TO JIM SCHULTZ AND HE SAID HE WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE AGGRESSIVE ON HIS OWN AND 40% ELLISON DID ENDORSE MOREARTRY SO ERHAPS NOT THAT MUCH SPACE POLITICALLY BETWEEN THEM BUT IN THIS INSTANCE IT SEEMS LIKE SHE WENT TOO FAR IN HIS VIEW.

>> Eric: O THE CASE HAS HAS BEEN STOPPED WITH A CONTINUEAS AND WHEN IT GEARS UP AGAIN PERHAPS IN A PLEA BARGAIN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE WILL BE BEFORE THE JUDGE AND THE JURY, RIGHT?

>> CORRECT.

>> Cathy: THIS DOES SET A PRECEDENT, RIGHT?

I CAN'T REMEMBER THE LAST TIME THIS HAPPENED.

ACTUALLY, IT HAPPENED BACK IN THE 19 90S, CROW WING COUNTY, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YEAH, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SAID THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME HE COULD THINK OF 19 90S CROW WING COUNTY UNDER GOVERNOR RUDY PERPICH AND SKIP HUMPHREY.

BEFORE THIS HAPPENED THEY BASICALLY SAID THEY DIDN'T WANT IT TO SET A PRECEDENT, THEY DIDN'T WANT GOVERNOR WALZ TO BASICALLY GRANT THIS BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE IT DOES ALLOW SORT OF AN ATTORNEY GENERAL TO KIND OF STEP IN WHATEVER THEY WANT AND THEY WANT SORT OF COUNTY ATTORNEYS TO PROSECUTE LOCALLY AS HAS BEEN THEIR ROLE FOR A LONG TIME AND ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL TOO THEY HELD THAT VIEW OF KIND OF KEEPING DECISIONS LOCALLY AND IN AN ELECTED COUNTY PROSECUTOR DECISION.

>> WALKER HAS A VERY GOOD STORY ON MINNPOST.COM, THAT'S AVAILABLE NOW, RIGHT?

THANKS FOR COMING OVER.

GOOD STUFF.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Eric: YOU BET.

THANKS.

♪♪ >> Cathy: IT IS ONE OF THE MOST AMBITIOUS BILLS MOVING THROUGH THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

DEMOCRATS ARE PUSHING PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE LEGISLATION.

IF IT BECOMES LAW MINNESOTA WORKERS COULD EARN UP TO 48 HOURS OF PAID SICK LEAVE AND UP TO 12 WEEKS FOR PAID MEDICAL LEAVE.

THE LAW WOULD BE FUNDED BY A TAX ON EMPLOYEES AND BUSINESSES.

WE'RE GOING TO DEBATE WHETHER THE STATEWIDE PLAN IS A GOOD IDEA, IF IT IS AFFORDABLE.

WE'RE JOINED BY A PAID FAMILY LEAVE SUPPORTER DEB FITZ PATRICK WITH THE CHILDREN'S DEFENSE FUND OF MINNESOTA.

OPPOSING THE PROPOSED LAN IS GAVIN HANSON, HE'S WITH THE MINNESOTA BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

DEB, WHY IS SOMETHING LIKE THIS NEEDED IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA?

>> WELL, WE KNOW THAT ONLY ABOUT 25% OF WORKERS IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA CURRENTLY HAVE ACCESS TO A PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE BENEFIT THROUGH THEIR EMPLOYER CURRENTLY.

40% TO A TEMPORARY DISABILITY POLICY FOR MEDICAL LEAVE, AND WE KNOW THAT A LOT OF WORKERS ARE PUT IN THIS POSITION OF BEING, FACING A SERIOUS HEALTH CONDITION OR A NEW BABY OR A FAMILY MEMBER WITH A SERIOUS HEALTH CONDITION, AND THEN HAVE TO TAKE SOME SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME AWAY FROM THEIR WORK.

AND IN THAT TIME THEY OFTEN ARE GOING WITHOUT PAY.

SO THAT CAN BE REALLY ADD HUGE EXTRA BURDEN OR, YOU KNOW, MAKE STARTING A NEW FAMILY EVEN MORE DIFFICULT.

WE KNOW THAT HAVING A NEW BABY IS REALLY CHALLENGING AND LOSING INCOME DURING THAT TIME IS, JUST MAKE IT'S ALL THE MORE DIFFICULT.

>> Eric: I THINK I'VE HEARD THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY SAY WELL INTENTIONED BUT NOT WORKABLE, IS THAT A FAIR SUMMATION OF -- >> RIGHT NOW THE PLAN AS PROPOSED I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

AND THE MINNESOTA BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP WHICH REPRESENTS SOME OF THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS IN MINNESOTA ARE PROUD OF THE FACT THAT THEY OFFER SOME OF THE MOST GENEROUS BENEFITS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

WHAT WE ARE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT WITH THIS CURRENT PROPOSAL IS THE RISK OF PUTTING OUR, THE BENEFITS OF THE EMPLOYEES AT RISK.

WITH WHAT WOULD BE IN THE STATE PLAN.

>> Cathy: I THOUGHT I SAW SOMEWHERE THAT 80% OF INNESOTA BUSINESSES ALREADY HAVE PAID LEAVE, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT'S A NUMBER THAT I THINK THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE USES, ABSOLUTELY.

I CAN SAY FOR THE MINNESOTA BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP ALL OF OUR MEMBERS OFFER A FORM OF PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

>> Cathy: DEB, WHY SHOULD THE STATE GET INVOLVED IN THIS?

>> WELL, I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT WHILE A LOT OF EMPLOYERS DO OFFER PAID TIME OFF IT'S MORE LIKE TWO TO THREE WEEKS ON AVERAGE.

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH THIS BILL IS SITUATIONS WHERE PEOPLE NEED TO TAKE MORE THAN A WEEK OFF OF WORK.

SO IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE IT CAN BE CHALLENGING ESPECIALLY FOR SMALL BUSINESSES, MAYBE SOME OF THE, YOU KNOW, MINNESOTA BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP EMPLOYERS HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO OFFER THIS KIND OF BENEFIT TO THEIR EMPLOYEES, ESPECIALLY THOSE AT THE TOP OF THE HIERARCHY.

BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT MOST WORKERS DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THAT.

AND THEN AGAIN THEY'RE IN THIS SITUATION WHERE THEY ARE LEFT WITHOUT ANY INCOME DURING SOME OF THESE REALLY CHALLENGING TIMES IN LIFE.

AND SO BY THE STATE STEPPING IN AND, AGAIN, THIS IS THE APPROACH THAT'S TAKEN IN ALL, MANY COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD, AS WELL AS IN TEN OTHER U.S. STATES WHERE EVERYBODY'S PAYING IN TO A FUND WHICH KEEPS THE COSTS LOW FOR EVERYBODY AND IT ALLOWS SMALLER EMPLOYERS, LYES THE PLAYING FIELD BETWEEN EMPLOYERS.

>> Eric: NOW, THERE'S A .7% PAYROLL TAX INCREASE DIVIDED BY EMPLOYERS AND EMPLOYEES.

THE LEGISLATURE, IT'S BEEN REWRITTEN LIKE 7 TIMES SO I THINK THE CURRENT VERSION IS 668 MILLION SURPLUS FUNDS TO START UP.

IS THAT GOING TO BE ENOUGH MONEY TO GET THE JOB DONE?

>> NO, AND I THINK THAT'S JUST THE FIRST NUMBER AND IT'S GONE DOWN.

I THINK IT WAS ORIGINALLY $1.7 BILLION IN THE BILL TO FRONTLOAD THIS PROPOSAL.

BUT THE FISCAL NOTE JUST CAME OUT A FEW WEEKS AGO POINTED TO A, THE PAYROLL TAX BEING $1.5 BILLION IN THE FIRST BIENNIUM AND LIKELY TO GROW.

$1.5 BILLION IS A ONSERVATIVE NUMBER.

>> Eric: THERE IS A REPUBLICAN VERSION OF THIS THAT USES TAX CREDITS AND PRIVATE INSURANCE.

I THINK SENATOR COLEMAN HAD THAT FROM WACONIA LAST SESSION.

WHAT'S LACKING IN THAT OR WHAT'S SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE?

>> YEAH, I THINK WE'VE HAD A SIMILAR PROPOSAL LIKE THAT AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL FOR A WHILE.

AND IT HASN'T MOVED THE DIME, IT HASN'T MOVED THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GETTING ACCESS.

AND SO KNOW NOW WE HAVE THIS SORT OF EMPLOYER LOTTERY, SOME PEOPLE GET ACCESS TO THIS AND OTHERS DON'T AND I THINK THESE VOLUNTARY APPROACHES JUST CONTINUE THIS SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE CAN'T COUNT ON THE SUPPORT AGAIN WHEN THEY NEED IT THE MOST.

>> Cathy: THERE ARE CITIES THAT HAVE PAID SICK LEAVE, MINNEAPOLIS, ST. PAUL, BLOOMINGTON, DULUTH, RIGHT?

HOW DOES THAT FIT INTO THIS?

>> SO THOSE ARE DESIGNED TO GIVE EOPLE A SHORT AMOUNT OF PAID SICK DAYS, SO THAT'S AROUND 48 HOURS I THINK IS THE PROPOSAL THAT'S ON THE BOOKS THAT'S MOVING IN THE LEGISLATURE FOR THAT.

AND THAT'S DESIGNED TO DEAL WITH THOSE MORE SHORT-TERM KINDS OF, A FLU OR, YOU KNOW, A SHORTER TERM SITUATION.

THIS PROPOSAL THE PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE PROPOSAL AGAIN IS DESIGNED TO HELP PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE HAVING A MORE SERIOUS SITUATION THAT LASTS THAT ARE MONTH 7 DAYS.

SO THEY KIND OF STACK ON TOP OF EACH OTHER IN SOME IMPORTANT WAYS THAT THOSE SICK LEAVE PROPOSALS DEAL WITH THOSE SHORT-TERM SITUATIONS AND THIS PROPOSAL DEALS ITH THOSE LONGER TERM.

>> Eric: IS THE STATUS QUO OKAY FOR THE PARTNERSHIP OR DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANOTHER WAY YOU COULD GET AT THE PROBLEM?

>> FOR THE MINNESOTA BUSINESS PARTNERSHIP I THINK OUR BIGGEST GOAL AT THE END OF THIS WOULD BE TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE OFFERING OUR EMPLOYEES WORK CLASS BENEFITS THEY CURRENTLY HAVE.

INS THAT IS DEFINITELY SOMETHING WE WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO WORK THROUGH THE END OF SESSION.

I THINK FORCING OUR EMPLOYEES TO GO THROUGH A STATE PLAN WHICH DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE A GOOD TRACK RECORD HERE IN MINNESOTA WITH MNSURE OR THE DRIVER'S LICENSE FIASCO WITH MNLARS, WE WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE THEM STAY WITHIN THEIR EMPLOYER.

>> Cathy: PERHAPS COULD EMPLOYEES OPTOUT?

HAVE TWO SYSTEMS HERE?

>> WELL, NO, CURRENTLY THE ONLY WAY YOU'D BE ABLE TO OPT OUT OF THE PLAN IS IF YOU MEET THE STATE'S PLAN TO A T. AND THERE'S A LOT OF RESTRICTIONS, IT'S VERY BURDENSOME, VERY BROAD.

AND SO RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT REALLY A REALISTIC PLAN TO BE ABLE TO OPT OUT.

>> Cathy: DEB.

>> YEAH, WELL, WE DO HAVE IN OTHER STATES WE'VE MODELED OUR ABILITY OF EMPLOYERS TO OPT OUT AND OFFER A COMPARABLE PLAN ON THOSE THAT ARE WORKING IN OTHER STATES AND EMPLOYERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT.

AND I GUESS JUST REALLY IMPORTANT THOUGH TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 75% OF THE WORKERS IN THE STATE THAT DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THIS KIND OF BENEFIT NOW.

AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE'RE NOT DISRUPTING THOSE FOLKS THAT HAVE THAT ARE PRIVILEGED ENOUGH TO HAVE THESE REALLY GREAT BENEFIT SETS NOW.

BUT AND SO I THINK WE ARE WORKING AND WE WANT TO WORK TOGETHER TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT DISRUPTING THOSE FOLKS THAT ALREADY HAVE IT WELL BUT MAKE SURE WE'RE AGAIN CREATING THAT SAFETY NET FOR ALL THOSE THAT DON'T.

>> Eric: ARE YOU HIPPING VOTES?

DO YOU KNOW HOW CLOSE YOU ARE IN THE SENATE?

YOU NEED 34.

>> WELL.

>> I'D BE CURIOUSOUS TO KNOW TOO.

>> WE THINK WE'RE THERE.

>> Eric: GOOD LUCK TO BOTH OF YOU.

THANKS FOR COMING ON.

>> Cathy: HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE IN IRON RANGE POLITICS, LONG A D.F.L.

STRONGHOLD REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN MAKING STEADY GAINS ON THE RANGE.

MARY LAHAMMER HAS THIS LOOK AT THE LAWMAKER MAKING HISTORY AND WHAT THE CHANGE MIGHT MEAN FOR MINING AND THE ENVIRONMENT.

>> KEEPING CANOEING, WOODS AND WATER PRISTINE IN THE NORTHLAND IS WHAT THE FRIENDS OF THE BOUNDARY WATERS ADVOCATED AT THE CAPITOL.

THE NEW REPUBLICAN CHAIR OF THE IRON ANGE RESOURCES AND REHABILITATION BOARD SAYS THEY WANT SOME OF THE SAME THINGS.

>> WHEN I WAS ELECTED CHAIR THE BOARD WHICH MAKES ME THE FIRST REPUBLICAN IN STATE HISTORY TO CHAIR THAT BOARD.

>> AND LONG HISTORY, 28 YEARS, YOU'RE THE FIRST REPUBLICAN.

>> YES.

IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME.

AND I, YOU KNOW, DYNAMICS ARE CHANGING, THINGS ARE HANGING.

>> THOSE CHANGES ON THE RANGE ARE BEING NOTICED BY ENVIRONMENTALISTS.

>> WE'RE HERE HAVING A PROVE IT FIRST ADVOCACY SAY, RALLYING IN SUPPORT OF PROVE IT FIRST AIMING TO PROTECT OUR WATER FROM THE THREAT OF COPPER MINING POLLUTION.

>> HOW'S THE BILL DOING?

>> DOING WELL, COULD BE DOING BETTER.

>> THEY'VE GONE FROM A FEW SUPPORTERS TO DOZENS IN THE D.F.L.

DOMINATED LEGISLATURE BUT IRON RANGE POLITICS.

>> I'M A PROLABOR REPUBLICAN, IT HASN'T CHANGED THAT MUCH, THE PARTIES HAVE SWITCHED.

WE'RE THE BIGGEST MELTING POT IN THE MIDWEST, 43 ETHNICITIES.

WE NEED STRONG BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY BASED POLICY AND D.F.L.

ISN'T LEADING THAT ANYMORE.

I THINK YOU SEE RURAL AREAS ARE GOING A LOT MORE REPUBLICAN IN GENERAL AND I THINK YOU SEE THAT WITH THIS ISSUE BECAUSE THERE WERE PRO-COPPER MINING DEMOCRAT THAT'S RAN AND LOST.

AND SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF A BIGGER OVERALL ISSUE IN THAT.

>> LITERALLY CONTROL, THE SENATE WAS DECIDED BY TWO NORTHERN MINNESOTA SEATS WHO ARE GOING TO BE REALLY CAREFUL ON BILLS LIKE THIS.

>> I OULD PUSH BACK SLIGHTLY AND SAY THAT, YES, IT WAS DECIDED BUT IT ALSO COULD HAVE BEEN ECIDED ON HEATHER GUSTAFSON'S SEAT, IN SUBURB SEATS AND EVEN IN THE EX-USHES AREA, CLEAN WATER IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND ALSO IN NORTHERN MINNESOTA.

IT WAS A REALLY CLOSE RACE AND OBVIOUSLY A HUGE RACE.

SENATOR BAKK RETIRED AND THAT WAS A 30--YEAR INCUMBENT THAT DISAPPEARED.

>> MY HOPE SENATOR HAUSCHILD WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PROVE IT FIRST, HIS BACKYARD IS POLY MET, TWIN METALS, THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST MINERAL RICH PARTS OF THE STATE.

>> REPRESENTATIVE IGO IS FOLLOWING A NUMBER OF LEGENDARY BOARD CHAIRS MOST RECENTLY SENATORS TOMASSONI AND BAKK.

>> THESE ARE LEGENDS, QUITE HONESTLY.

>> YEAH.

>> IN STATEWIDE POLITICS, IN RANGE POLITICS.

LET'S TALK ABOUT STEPPING INTO LEGENDARY FOOTSTEPS.

>> MM-HMM, ABSOLUTELY, THE THING I ALWAYS USE MESABI IS THE NAME OF OUR IRON RANGE WHICH MEANS GIANT.

THEY ARE ALL GIANTS, THEY LEFT LEGACIES AND ACCOMPLISHED WONDERFUL THINGS FOR OUR NORTHLAND AND RANGER.

AND GETTING TO KNOW SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE I'M EXCITED TO APPLY WHAT I'VE LEARNED.

COMMISSIONER RUKAVINA, IT'S SUPER EXCITING TO WORK WITH HER, SHE CARRIES THAT LEGACY JUST LIKE HER FATHER DID.

>> WHAT WOULD TOMMY RUKAVINA SAY OF A REPUBLICAN CHAIRING THIS?

>> OOH, HE WOULD PROBABLY BE GIVING ME A VERY HARD TIME RIGHT NOW.

>> HE WOULD NOT BE HAPPY.

>> NO, HE OULDN'T BE, BUT I THINK MY POLITICS AREN'T THAT DIFFERENT.

>> I GOT IRON ORE IN MY BLOOD.

DON'T YOU LECTURE ME, YOUNG MAN, ABOUT WHAT THE HELL'S GOING ON AROUND HERE.

I JUST LOVE A GOOD FIGHT.

>> THE RANGE IS CHANGING OBVIOUSLY BUT PEOPLE WANT THAT PERSON THAT FIGHTS FOR THE REGION, FOR THE EOPLE BUT WORKS TOGETHER.

SENATOR TOMASSONI WAS AN AMAZING MAN.

HE WAS THE LAST CHAIR OF THE IRRR ALONG WITH SENATOR BAKK AND WHEN I WAS FIRST WORKING FOR CONGRESSMAN STAUBER I WAS THE FIRST REPUBLICAN STAFFER ON THE RANGE IF YOU WILL BUT I HAD TO SIT IN A LOT OF MEETINGS WITH THE SENATOR, SENATOR TOMASSONI LEFT A GREAT LEGACY, HE'D GIVE ME POINTERS, CRACK JOKES, AND SAY SPENCER, GET UP THERE AND SAY YOUR TWO CENTS.

I THINK ABOUT THAT A LOT AND I DO MISS HIM TERRIBLY.

>> YOU HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.

>> THANKS.

>> YEAH, YOU DO.

>> BACK TO THE MINING INDUSTRY, WHICH HAS LONG HAD SUPPORT FROM IRON RANGE LAWMAKERS.

>> WE ALREADY HAVE PROVEN IT AND WE CAN DO IT HERE SAFELY AND CONSUMER.

IT'S JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO WE MASSED THE CLEAN ENERGY 2040, THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN REACH THAT OAL UNLESS WE MINE MINERALS IN MINNESOTA.

AND SOMETHING 'LL BE SAYING TO THOSE GROUPS IS IF YOU WANT THOSE THINGS YOU SHOULD ADVOCATE FOR PROVE IT FIRST IN INDONESIA, IN CHINA, IN AFRICA, I'M TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW THERE'S 10-YEAR-OLDS MINING COBALT AND SLAVE LABOR MINING NICKEL.

I'M NOT OKAY WITH THAT.

I'D RATHER HAVE BEST ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS IN THE WORLD AND THE WORKFORCE MINING THOSE MINERALS SAFELY AND CONSUMER IN OUR BACKYARD.

>> THERE'S NO SCIENCE THAT THIS WILL BE SAFE, ARE WE GOING TO BUILD THIS UPWARDS OF LAKE SUPERIOR?

MCEWEN GOT ELECTED, KOZLOWSKI GOT ELECTED, THESE ARE ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE THREATS.

>> NO ONE LOVES THEIR ENVIRONMENT OF BETTER THAN SOMEONE THAT LIVES ON THE RANGE.

THE CLEANEST WATER IN THE STATE EXISTS IN THEIR BACKYARD.

WE'VE SET THE PRECEDENT.

WE'VE PROVEN WE CAN HAVE BOTH.

>> THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE D.F.L.

THAT ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CLEAN WATER, I THINK IT SHOULD BE A NONPARTISAN ISSUE.

I THINK PEOPLE ACROSS THE AISLE AND VOTERS ACROSS THE AISLE DEFINITELY THINK ABOUT PROTECTING OUR CLEAN WATER.

WE DO NOT YET HAVE THE SUPPORT WE FULLY NEED OBVIOUSLY TO GET IT PASSED.

IT SHOWS IT'S AN ISSUE THAT PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT BEING STRONG WORRIED ABOUT BEING IN SUPPORT OF.

>> POLITICALLY WORRIED.

♪♪ >> Eric: WHEN THE NEWS HIT MONDAY IT WAS A SURPRISE, U OF M PRESIDENT JOAN GABEL ANNOUNCED SHE WAS LEAVING THE U TO ACCEPT A JOB AS CHANCELLOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH.

HER PITT SALARY WITH BONUSES COULD TOP A MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

GABEL WILL HAVE THE SHORTEST TERM AS PRESIDENT SINCE KEN KILLER IN THE 1980S, GABEL HAS BEEN AT TIMES A CONTROVERSIAL LEADER PARTLY DUE TO HER ATTEMPT TO SERVE AS A PAID BOARD MEMBER FOR A HEALTH CARE COMPANY.

HERE TO TALK ABOUT GABEL AND WHAT THE U MAY BE LOOKING FOR IN ITS NEXT LEADER, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA REGENT DARRIN ROSHA, THE U OF M GRAD IS FINISHING HIS THIRD TERM AS A RECENTLIANT, HE'S AN ATTORNEY.

YOU RAISED THE PROBLEM WITH THE BOARD OF DIRECTORSHIP, WHAT DID YOU KNOW THAT OTHERS DIDN'T?

>> WELL, ONE CORRECTION.

>> Eric: OKAY, GO AHEAD.

>> SO I VOTED AGAINST THE SINGLE CANDIDATE BEING PUT FORWARD AS SHE WAS THE CANDIDATE BECAUSE I DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS ONSISTENT WITH STATE LAW, I DIDN'T FEEL IT WAS CONSISTENT WITH A GOOD PROCESS FOR THE UNIVERSITY.

I ALSO WAS NOT ONE OF THE SMALL NUMBER OF REGENTS THAT WERE PART OF THAT PROCESS, WHICH I THINK ALL THE REGENTS NEED TO BE PART OF THE SEARCH COMMITTEE, THAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING THE BOARD.

>> Eric: THAT'S SOURED THINGS MAYBE OFF THE BAT.

>> NOT SO MUCH WITH HER BUT I THEN WHEN SHE CAME THROUGH THE PROCESS AND SHE WAS PUT FORWARD HER CONTRACT WAS PUT FORWARD TO BE HIRED, I LOVE THE UNIVERSITY, I WANT HER TO SUCCEED OBVIOUSLY, SHE'S GOING TO BE HIRED, SO I, YOU KNOW, SUPPORTED ER AND TO LET HER OFF WITH A FULL VOTE OF SUPPORT FROM THE BOARD.

BUT THEN AFTER THAT SOME THINGS WERE HAPPENING WITH ADDITIONAL HIRES AND THE MASSIVE SALARY INCREASES AND THE NUMBER OF THINGS THAT WEREN'T REALLY CONSISTENT WITH THE MISSION OF THE UNIVERSITY THAT CAUSED ME TO BE A BIT CONCERNED.

AND FELT THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO RAISE THOSE CONCERNS EVEN IF IT WAS A CHALLENGING PUBLIC DIALOGUE.

>> Cathy: WHAT WAS THE STRAW THAT KIND OF BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK FOR YOU?

WAS IT SECURIAN?

>> THAT WAS THE STRAW THAT LED ME TO MAKE ANY PUBLIC DIALOGUE OUTSIDE OF THE BOARD.

YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY WITHIN THE HALLS OF MCNAMARA THERE'S CONCERN AND ALLEGATIONS THAT YOU'RE BEING, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE BEING CONTENTIOUS, YOU'RE NOT BEING, YOU'RE NOT HOLDING IT TOGETHER AS A BOARD FOR THE UNIVERSITY'S SAKE.

IT'S LIKE, WELL, YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME I EVER HAD AN ISSUE I TRY WITH MY COLLEAGUES, I TRY THROUGH THE BOARD PROCESS AND THEN FINALLY WITH SECURIAN IT WAS SO REMARKABLE WE WEREN'T INFORMED OF IT UNTIL JUST A COUPLE DAYS BEFORE THE VOTE.

OBVIOUSLY I SPOKE OUT AGAINST IT AND VOTED AGAINST IT AND THEN HAD A CHANCE TO ACTUALLY CONDUCT SOME RESEARCH AND DETERMINED IT WAS IN CLEAR VIOLATION OF STATE LAW AND SHE HAD ACTED ON BEHALF -- OR SUPPORTED A CONTRACT WITH A CORPORATION WHICH THEN MAKES IT IMPROPER TO ACCEPT COMPENSATION.

>> Eric: IN HIND SIGHT DOES THIS LOOK LIKE A RESUME PADDER?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE CONCERNS I RAISED WITH THE SINGLE CANDIDATE ISSUE WAS FOR SOME REASON WE HAVE AN AVERSION TO PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THIS COMMUNITY OR ARE FROM THIS COMMUNITY.

NOT THAT YOU HAVE TO BE FROM THIS COMMUNITY, BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU WONDER WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION FOR TAKING THIS POSITION.

OBVIOUSLY I'M A FIERCE PARTISAN FOR MINNESOTA AND THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA.

AND SO THAT WAS A CONCERN AS, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT ANY SORT OF BACKGROUND WITH THIS INSTITUTION OR WITH THIS STATE WHAT WOULD BE THE INTEREST.

AND SO WANTING TO, TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE GOAL WAS THE LONG-TERM SUCCESS OF THE INSTITUTION AS OPPOSED TO AN INDIVIDUAL INTEREST.

AND, YOU KNOW, SHE AND I HAD THOSE CONVERSATIONS EARLY ON AND SHE SOUGHT TO REASSURE ME THAT HER INTEREST WAS THE UNIVERSITY.

BUT IT WAS JUST SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON OVER THE COURSE OF HER TENURE HERE I FELT WERE SOMEWHAT INCONSISTENT, WELL, I FELT WERE INCONSISTENT WITH THE UNIVERSITY'S MISSION AND OBLIGATION TO THE PEOPLE OF MINNESOTA.

>> Cathy: DO YOU THINK THAT THE HIRING PROCESS NEEDS TO BE CHANGED GOING FORWARD?

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE REGENTS.

THE REGENTS SIGNED OFF ON HER.

>> YEAH IT, STARTS WITH THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS.

IT STARTS WITH WHO IS ELECTED TO THE BOARD.

AND WE'VE GOT A BYZANTINE PROCESS, A LOT OF STATES IT'S A GUBERNATORIAL APPOINTMENT.

I THINK THERE'S VALUE IN THAT BECAUSE GOVERNORS HAVE A REPUTATION TO UPHOLD AND THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE PICKING PEOPLE ENGAGED AND COMPETENT.

SOME ARE ELECTED BY THE PUBLIC, THOSE ARE DIFFICULT TO REALLY KNOW THE CANDIDATES I THINK.

OURS IT'S LAYER ON LAYER OF POLITICS THAT MAKE IT SOMEWHAT DISCOURAGING FOR GOOD PUBLIC SERVICE MINDED PEOPLE TO RUN.

BUT THE PROCESS, YOU KNOW, EVERY PROCESS FOR HIRING HAS BEEN DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT'S ULTIMATELY PUT IN PLACE BY THE LEADERSHIP OF THE BOARD OR THE BOARD AT THAT TIME.

THIS PARTICULAR ONE I WAS NOT A FAN OF AT ALL BECAUSE ONLY FIVE REGENTS WERE REALLY A PART OF IT BY THE TIME IT GOT TO THE FULL BOARD OF 12, 7 OF US REALLY ONLY HAD ONE NAME PUT N FRONT OF US SO THERE'S NOT A WHOLE LOT OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE PUBLIC BOARD IN THAT HIRING PROCESS.

- >> Eric: TIMING.

COMMITTEES ARE PUTTING TOGETHER THE HIGHER ED OMNIBUS BILL, I THINK YOU'RE LOOKING FOR 300 MILLION INCREASE FOR THE U OF M. IS IT A GOOD THING SHE'S GONE OR BAD THING OR EUTRAL?

>> THAT'S HARD TO SAY.

THE UNIVERSITY IS DEFINITELY NOT IN THE POSITION THAT IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST WHERE MINNESOTA STATE AND THE UNIVERSITY WERE ESSENTIALLY SPLIT, YOU KNOW, MINNESOTA STATE WOULD HAVE MANY MORE STUDENTS BUT THE UNIVERSITY HAS RESEARCH AND OTHER OBLIGATIONS AS WELL.

SO THAT'S REALLY BEEN DIVIDED AND KIND OF WATCHED THAT GAP GROW OVER THE LAST SIX, SEVEN YEARS.

BUT THE UNIVERSITY HAD SOME DEPARTURES FROM ITS LOBBYING TEAM IN THIS PROCESS AND REALLY IT'S BEEN A CHALLENGE.

AND FORTUNATELY I THINK MOST LEGISLATORS BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE UNDERSTAND THE VALUE UNIVERSITY AND CONTINUE TO BE SUPPORTIVE, BUT THEY'RE VERY CONCERNED, THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THESE MASSIVE SALARIES, THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT HIGH TUITION AND THEY'LL STILL SUPPORT IT BUT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOME CHANGE I THINK.

>> Cathy: DO YOU THINK THE U NEEDS TO PAY MORE TO ATTRACT QUALITY CANDIDATES?

>> I DON'T.

IN FACT PART OF MY CONCERN IS I SERVED ON THE BOARD FROM '89 TO '95.

>> Eric: YEAH, YOU HAD A SPLIT.

>> AND 20-YEAR HIATUS AND RETURNED IN 2015.

- WITH PRESIDENT HASSLEMO HE WAS MAKING 155 A YEAR WHICH TODAY IS ABOUT 306 AND IN FACT WHEN WAS FIRST ON THE BOARD THE CHAIR AT THE TIME CHUCK CASEY HAD OFFERED HIM A RAISE AND HE SAID, WELL, THE LEGISLATURE'S BEEN CUTTING BACK, I HAVE TO RAISE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO RAISE TUITION, WE HAVE LESS THAN INFLATIONARY INCREASES FOR THE STAFF, HOW CAN I BE A LEADER OF THIS INSTITUTION IF I'M TAKING A RAISE WHILE I'M ASKING FOR SACRIFICES FROM OTHERS?

THAT MENTALITY HAS BEEN GONE FOR SOME TIME.

SO I THINK IF YOUR GOAL IS TO WIN THE HIGH COMPENSATION ADMINISTRATOR SWEEPSTAKES YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAVE FOCUS ON WHAT REALLY IS IMPORTANT.

HIGHER ED, YOU KNOW, IS AN INCREDIBLE PUBLIC SERVICE AND VERY, VERY VALUABLE AND I THINK FINDING PEOPLE WHO FIND THAT CAPACITY TO HAVE THAT IMPACT WORKING FOR ONE OF THE GREAT INSTITUTIONS IN THE WORLD SHOULD BE A HUGE PART OF THEIR COMPENSATION, JUST LIKE OTHER, WHETHER IT'S ILITARY SERVICE, THE GOVERNOR, I MEAN, OTHER PEOPLE THAT SERVE THE COMMUNITY THAT HAS TO BE A PART OF IT AND THAT'S BEEN BRED OUT OF HIGHER ED FOR A COUPLE DECADES NOW.

>> Eric: APPRECIATE YOU COMING OVER.

THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE TO THE STATE.

>> PROUD TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.

♪♪ >> Cathy: FOR MORE THAN THREE YEARS NOW MICHAEL OSTERHOLM HAS BEEN MAKING MONTHLY VISITS TO "ALMANAC."

NOW, WE'VE TALKED TO HIM ABOUT LOCKDOWNS, MASKING, BOOSTERS, PUBLIC HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE, COVID.

TONIGHT WE REACH A MILESTONE IN OUR COVERAGE.

FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE MARCH OF 2020, MICHAEL OSTERHOLM IS JOINING US IN STUDIO INSTEAD OF BY WEBCAM.

NOW, THERE'S A STORY BEHIND THAT, WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THAT IN A SECOND.

DR. OSTERHOLM HAS THE U OF M'S CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND RESEARCH POLICY.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

HOW ARE YOU FEELING?

YOU'RE HERE FOR A EASON.

>> YEAH, WELL, I UNFORTUNATELY WAS A VICTIM OF THE VIRUS.

ON MARCH 10TH I THINK I WAS EXPOSED IN ABOUT A 30-SECOND ELEVATOR RIDE WHERE I DID NOT HAVE MY N95 ON, WITH TWO OTHER PEOPLE, ALL THREE OF US GOT INFECTED.

IT WAS A REMARKABLE SITUATION IN TERMS OF GETTING TO SEE FIRSTHAND WHAT IT'S LIKE.

>> Cathy: ERIC OFFAIR SAID DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GET COVID TWICE?

>> OH, YES, YOU CAN.

AND ACTUALLY FOR ME I HAVE A SENSE OF SURVIVOR GUILT BECAUSE I HAVE TWO TO THREE MONTHS NOW WHERE I HAVE GOOD PROTECTION HAVING HAD IT.

EVEN THAT WEARS OFF OVER TIME SO I'LL BE LOOKING FOR MY NEXT BOOSTER DOSE IN A FEW MONTHS.

I HEARD HAVE FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO SAID YOU'RE KIND OF TALKING ABOUT BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH HERE, THESE VACCINES ARE VERY IMPORTANT BUT THEN YOU GOT IT.

IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE I DID NOT END UP IN N ICU BED OR DEATH AND PART OF LOVID.

BECAUSE OF MY AGE I COULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THOSE.

>> THERE IS A NEW ROUND OF BOOSTERS?

>> THERE IS, I EXPECT IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS THE FDA WILL MAKE THAT POSSIBLE.

WE HAVE MORE AND MORE DATA THAT SAYS THAT ROUTINE BOOSTS LIKE THAT DOES REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE, NOT ONLY DO YOU GET INFECTED IN THOSE FIRST WEEKS BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY DO YOU AVOID SERIOUS ILLNESS, HOSPITALIZATIONS AND EATHS AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR.

>> Cathy: YOU'RE NOT A FAN, THOUGH OF ANNUAL OOSTERS IN THE FALL, RIGHT?

>> I AM NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT WE DON'T SEE THIS AS A SEASONAL DISEASE YET.

RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN A QUANDARY AROUND THE WORLD, WE'RE SEEING A MAJOR INCREASE IN CASES IN INDIA, IN THE EASTERN MED TRAIN REGION, SUMMERTIME.

IT'S NOT WINTER.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN THIS SETTLE INTO A PATTERN.

AND YOU DO SEASONAL VACCINES SO THEY'RE TIMED SO PROTECTION IS MAXIMIZED OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS WHEN YOU WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THE VIRUS WHICH FLU DOES DO.

I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO CALL IT THAT YET.

>> Eric: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE INTERNATIONAL PANDEMIC ACCORD?

>> YES, I AM.

>> I READ CONFLICTING REPORTS THIS WEEK THAT WEALTHY AND LOW INCOME ARE -- >> IT IS A SITUATION WHERE IN PART IT'S NOT JUST ACCESS TO BUT IT'S WHO WILL USE THEM OR NOT.

WE HAVE A CHALLENGE ON OUR HANDS RIGHT NOW OF DISINFORMATION, MISINFORMATION THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT DIED WITH COVID THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED HAD THEY BEEN VACCINATED BUT THEY DIDN'T GET VACCINATED BECAUSE OF THE MISINFORMATION.

AND WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF THAT IN LOW INCOME COUNTRIES TOO.

SO ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE HAVE IS HOW DO WE APPROACH NOT ONLY GETTING HEM VACCINES BUT SUPPORTING VACCINE PROGRAMS.

SO THAT IS PART OF THE DISCUSSION GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

>> Cathy: YOU MENTION OF COURSE YOU'VE GOT PRETTY DECENT IMMUNITY RIGHT NOW BUT YOU MIGHT GO BACK TO WEARING YOUR N95 SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE.

WHICH LEADS TO ME TO THIS QUESTION.

ALLINA, OTHER BIG FACILITIES ARE DROPPING MASK REQUIREMENTS.

EVERYONE WANTS TO GET BACK TO SOME LEVEL OF NORMALCY, BUT THESE ARE HEALTH CARE INSTITUTIONS.

WHAT'S THE MESSAGE THERE >> WELL, FIRST OF ALL IN KIND OF SHALL I SAY A DIFFICULT MOMENT TO SAY THIS BUT THOSE MASKS REALLY DIDN'T MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE ANYWAY.

THIS HAS BEEN A REAL CHALLENGE FOR ME THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

THIS VIRUS IS TRANSMITTED AS AN AEROSOL, FINE PARTICLES, LIKE SMOKING, IF SOMEONE WERE SMOKING IN THE STUDIO, WE COULD BE 30 FEET AWAY AND SMELL IT, THAT'S AN AEROSOL.

SO YOU AVE TO HAVE A VERY TIGHT FITTING TYPE OF MASK THAT FILTERS OUT THE VIRUS WHICH IS WHAT AN N95 IS.

HOSPITALS ONLY REQUIRED A PROCEDURE MASK.

AND SO THERE WAS WIDE OPEN SIDES, IT WAS NOT A TYPE OF MATERIAL THAT WOULD STOP THE VIRUS FROM COMING THROUGH, AND SO I HAVE ALWAYS CHALLENGED THESE HOSPITAL HEALTH CARE MANDATES SAYING IF YOU'RE GOING TO MANDATE N95S YOU'RE GOING TO SAVE A LOT OF LIVES SO I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO LEAVE HERE SAYING I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD MASK.

WHAT YOU CAN'T DO THOUGH IS USE INADEQUATE ONES.

IT'S AN INTERESTING SCENARIO BECAUSE YOU THINK OF SURGEONS WITH THEIR MASKS ON, THE ONLY STUDIES WE HAVE SHOW THAT WHEN THEY WERE USING THOSE, THEY WERE USING THEM SO THEY DIDN'T DRIP INTO THE WOUND OR SURGICAL THING.

AND WE HAVE THREE STUDIES THAT SHOW IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

SO TO ME I THINK THAT THE MESSAGE WE HAVE TO GET OUT AND PUBLIC HEALTH FAILED MISERABLY AT THAT, PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN WEARING N95 RESPIRATORS, TIGHT FITTING AND THE MATERIAL IS A TYPE OF ELECTRO STATIC CHARGE MATERIAL SO THE AIR CAN GET THROUGH RELATIVELY EASY BUT THE VIRUS GETS TRAPPED.

>> Eric: JUST A MINUTE LEFT, AS YOU BECAME A PATIENT DO YOU HAVE A FIRST PERSON CRITIQUE OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AS IT RELATES TO THIS PROBLEM?

>> WELL, I WAS VERY FORTUNATE IN THAT -- >> Eric: OU HAVE SOME CONNECTIONS.

>> I HAVE SOME CONNECTIONS AND MORE SPECIFICALLY ONE OF THE CONNECTIONS HAPPENED TO BE A FORMER STUDENT OF MINE.

I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE STORY.

WHEN I HAD MY INITIAL ILLNESS I HAD PART OF LOVID ON BOARD BECAUSE I LED A DELEGATION TO CUBA LAST YEAR AND I HAD PAX LOVE AND I DIDN'T USE.

I SENT AN E-MAIL TO THIS CLINICIAN FRIEND OF MINE AND ABOUT 45 INUTES LATER I GET AN E-MAIL BACK AND SAID YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK TO SEE IF THIS WENT THROUGH, I'M IN THE HIGH ANDES RIGHT NOW, I JUST PICKED UP SIGNAL TO GET YOUR E-MAIL.

>> Cathy: LIKEWISE, IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> Eric: TAKE CARE.

>> THANKS, VERY MUCH.

♪♪ >> IT'S THE SEASON OF OUTERWEAR ORPHANS.

AFTER THIS LONG, LONG, LONG WINTER -- DID I SAY IT'S BEEN A MIGHTY LONG WINTER?

THERE ARE SO MANY SINGLES THAT USED TO BE DOUBLES.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOUR HOUSE, MOMS AND DADS, BUT AT THE BRUNDIDGES' EVERY MORNING IT'S, I LOST ONE OF MY WARM SOCKS, I CAN'T FIND THE BOTTOM OF MY SNOW SUIT.

MOM, HAVE YOU SEEN MY GOOD MITTENS?

SEEMS IKE I HAVE A BUILT-IN TRACKING DEVICE THAT WAS ACTIVATED THE DAY I GAVE BIRTH TO THESE BRUNDIDGE BABIES IN.

OUR HOUSE WE HAVE SO MANY SINGLE GLOVES I'M THINKING ABOUT OPENING A STORE.

IT'S MOSTLY KIDS WHO DROP OR FORGET OR MISPLACE COLD WEATHER STUFF.

BUT I HAVE TO ADMIT, I HAVE A FEW OF THESE INCIDENTS MYSELF.

JUST ASK MY NEIGHBORS ABOUT THE TIME I WAS SHOVELING WEARING ONE MITTEN AND ONE OVEN MITT.

HEY, IT KEEPS YOUR HANDS WARM WHEN YOU'RE OUT IN THAT DRIVEWAY.

AGAIN, I KNOW IT'S HARD TO KEEP TRACK OF STUFF FOR THE 8, 9, 10 MONTHS OF WINTER WE'RE STILL DIGGING OUT OF, BUT I WASN'T PREPARED FOR WHAT I SAW WHEN I SWUNG BY THE LOST AND FOUND AT MY KID'S ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

BOOTS!

YES, HONEY.

BOOTS.

JUST WHO ARE THESE KIDS WHO WHO SHOW UP AT THEIR HOME AT THE END OF THE DAY WITH STOCKING FEET?

EVEN MORE MYSTIFYING WAS THE NUMBER OF SINGLE BOOTS.

SAD, LONELY SOLITARY LOST BOOTS SITTING ON THE SHELF LIKE A FOOTWEAR SINGLES BAR.

WHERE'S THE MATCH.COM FOR BOOTS?

WHO WALKED HOME WITH ONE FOOT ALL SNUG AND COVERED AND THE OTHER BARE-TOED OUT?

>> HEY, MOM, I FOUND MY BOOT!

>> YEAH, BABY, BUT YOU FORGOT YOUR HAT.

HOLD ON, LET ME GET THAT FOR YOU.

SEE?

I CAN'T WAIT, LORD HAVE MERCY, UNTIL I HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH SANDALS AND SWIMSUITS.

♪♪ >> Cathy: AT MID WEEK THERE WERE BLIZZARDS IN WESTERN MINNESOTA.

NEXT WEEK TEMPS COULD BE IN THE 80S.

WELCOME TO OUR WACKY WEATHER WORLD.

THIS YEAR'S RECORD SNOW PACK COMBINED WITH A QUICK MELT HAS FOLKS WORRIED ABOUT FLOODING TOO.

YOU CAN INCLUDE KENNY LUMEN FELD IN THAT GROUP OUR STATE CLIMATOLOGIST.

WE HAVE HAD IMPRESSIVELY PERSISTENT SNOW.

>> YEAH, SURE, WE HAD SNOW BASICALLY EVERY MONTH NOVEMBER THROUGH APRIL WE WERE AT LEAST IN THE TWIN CITIES DOUBLE DIGITS WHICH IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE EVER DONE THAT.

WE ALSO HAD JUST A LOT OF SNOWSTORMS.

SO WE HAD IN THE TWIN CITIES I THINK WE'VE HAD SIX DIFFERENT STORMS WHERE WE HAD 8-INCHES OR MORE TOTAL AND THAT WAS ALSO A FIRST.

WE JUST AREN'T DONE THAT BEFORE, JUST REALLY PERSISTENT AND CONSISTENT SNOW >> Cathy: I WAS TALKING TO MARK SEALY OUR FRIEND ON THE AIR THIS MORNING ON MPR AND HE SAID WE'VE ALSO HAD RAIN EVENTS DURING THIS WINTER AND IF YOU ADDED THE RAIN, HAD THE RAIN BEEN SNOW HE SAID HE WOULD HAVE HAD ABOUT 140 INCHES OF SNOW.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> Cathy: UP TO 140 INCHES.

>> YEAH, SO WE HAD NOT JUST A LOT OF PRECIPITATION BUT A LOT OF RAIN.

ONE OF THE RAINIEST WINTERS WE'VE HAD.

WE KNOW IN DECEMBER OF 1982 WE KIND OF BROKE ALL THE RECORDS BECAUSE IT RAINED SO HARD RIGHT AROUND CHRISTMASTIME.

BUT THIS WINTER WE ALSO HAD JUST IKE WITH THE SNOW, WE PERSISTENT RAINFALL.

>> Eric: FLOODING POTENTIAL.

>> YEAH, WE'RE CONCERNED.

I MEAN, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE HYDROLOGISTS FROM THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ARE LOOKING AT, RAPID SNOW MELT, WE'VE GOT A HUGE SNOWPACK.

EVEN AFTER THE WEATHER PARTS OF WESTERN AND NORTHERN MINNESOTA HAVE FOUR, FIVE INCHES OF WATER KIND OF SITTING OUT THERE ON THE LAND.

THE CONCERN IS THAT THAT WATER'S ALL GOING TO COME OFF IN A HURRY.

WE HAD GREAT CONDITIONS THROUGH MARCH WHERE THE SNOW DIDN'T REALLY MOVE MUCH, IT WAS KIND OF TRICKLING OFF AND THAT WAS NICE.

BUT YOU KIND OF RUN OUT OF TIME BECAUSE AS YOU GET INTO APRIL THESE WARM PATTERNS AND BIG RAINS BECOME A LOT MORE LIKELY AND NOW THE CONCERN IS THAT IT'S ALL GOING TO OME OFF PRETTY QUICKLY AND THAT'S WHAT THE FORECASTERS ARE AT LEAST THINKING COULD HAPPEN NEXT WEEK.

YOU NEVER KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WATER'S GOING TO GO INTO THE SOIL, ALL OF THAT.

BUT ALSO THE KIND OF SNOW RESERVOIR UP IN NORTHWEST WISCONSIN THAT PARTIALLY FEEDS THE ST. CROIX RIVER IS FULL RIGHT NOW, I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH SNOW UP THERE, 7, 8-INCHES OF WATER SITTING IN THE SNOW UP THERE, THAT'S GOING TO DRAIN INTO THE ST. CROIX WHICH IS WHY STRUCTURAL IS LOOKING AT SOME BIG FLOOD POTENTIAL.

>> Cathy: SO YOU MENTIONED WE HAD A LOT OF RAIN THIS WINTER AND IT SEEMS TO US THAT YOU GO LIKE FROM ZERO TO 60 FOR SPRING.

SPRING IS REALLY SHORT LIKE, BOOM, THEN IT'S DONE AND YOU GET THESE LANGUISHING FALLS, ARE WE TO ASSUME ALL OF THIS IS MIXED UP IN CLIMATE CHANGE?

>> WELL, IT'S, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE KIND OF FAMOUS FOR OUR VARIATIONS.

SO WE HAVE TO SAY SOME OF IT'S MIXED UP IN OUR HISTORY, RIGHT.

CLIMATOLOGY, WE'VE ALWAYS HAD ACCRUAL CLIMATOLOGY HERE WITH BIG SWINGS, LINGERING SEASONS, SUDDEN CHANGES, AND REALLY SHORT SPRING AND FALL OFTEN BECAUSE WINTER LASTS EALLY LONG THEN YOU GET A SHORT SPRING.

AND IF SUMMER LASTS REALLY LONG YOU GET A SHORT FALL.

THE CLIMATE CHANGE ELEMENT THAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IS THAT WINTER IS JUST A LOT WARMER THAN HISTORICALLY SNOWY WINTERS HAD BEEN.

SO THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS WE HAD SO MUCH WATER.

AND THAT OUR STORMS ARE COMING IN WETTER.

>> Eric: DOES WINTER WEATHER GIVE US ANY HINT WHAT'S TO COME IN THE SUMMER?

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU STUDY CLIMATOLOGY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TO KIND OF CONSIDER IS HOW THE SEASONS DO AND DON'T RELATE TO EACH OTHER.

AND YOU'D LIKE IT TO BE REALLY CLEAN LIKE, OH, A COLD WEATHER MEANS SUMMER'S GOING TO BE THIS WAY BUT DOESN'T ALWAYS GO THAT WAY.

BUT ONE OF THE RELATIONSHIPS WE DO HAVE SOME EVIDENCE FOR IS THAT A SNOWY WINTER AND NOT ALWAYS BUT A SNOWY WINTER AND CAN AND I'D SAY IGHER THAN 50/50 FREQUENCY LEAD TO STORMY, EARLY AND KIND OF MID-SEVERE WEATHER SEASON.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE WATCHING.

WE CAN'T PREDICT IT BUT THERE'S CERTAINLY A RELATIONSHIP THERE.

1908S WERE VERY SNOWILY AND ALSO BLOCKBUSTER FOR SEVERE WEATHER.

>> Cathy: I WONDER WHAT WE SAW IN IOWA LAST WEEK.

THAT WAS AMAZING.

SOME BIG TORNADOES.

>> YEAH, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A SUPERCHARGED SPRING WEATHER SYSTEM WITH COLD AIR UP TO THE NORTH AND WARM AIR COMING UP FROM THE SOUTH.

>> Eric: THANK YOU, STATE CLIMATOLOGY.

>> ONE CORRECTION, LUIGI ROMO IS THE STATE CLIMATOLOGY.

>> LUIGI'S LIKE, WHAT?

>> EARL KEENEST WOULD BE PROUD.

♪♪ >> Eric: TUESDAY WAS A BLOCKBUSTER DAY IN POLITICS.

DONALD TRUMP MADE HISTORY WITH HIS ARRAIGNMENT IN A NEW YORK CITY COURTROOM.

ON THE VERY SAME DAY VOTERS WENT TO THE POLLS IN WISCONSIN AND IN CHICAGO.

THE WINDY CITY SELECTED A NEW MAYOR, THE DAIRY STATE VOTERS DETERMINED WHO CONTROLLED THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

WE'LL END THE HOUR TALKING ABOUT THESE STORIES AND OTHERS AND SOME STUFF CLOSER TO OUR ZIP CODE.

AND WE'RE JOINED BY LARRY JACOBS HEADS THE CENTER FOR POLITICS AND GOVERNANCE AT THE HUMPHREY SCHOOL AT THE U OF M, STEVEN SCHIER IS HERE, EMERITUS AT CARLETON UNIVERSITY AND BY WAY OF ZOOM, CYNTHIA RUGELEY SHE HEADS THE POLITICAL SCIENCE DEPARTMENT AT UMD.

PROFESSOR RUGELEY, YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE DOORSTEP OF WISCONSIN.

SO I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS INTERESTING BALLOT DAY IN THE BADGER STATE WHERE A LIBERAL WINS THE SUPREME COURT SEAT BUT A EPUBLICAN WINS A STATE SENATE SEAT AND NOW THE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE HAVE A SUPERMAJORITY.

SO WHAT WAS GOING GOING ON IN WISCONSIN?

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS INTERESTING.

THE REPUBLICANS HAD A SUPERMAJORITY, THE REPUBLICAN THAT WAS ELECTED REPLACED ANOTHER REPUBLICAN.

THE SUPREME COURT RACE WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE OF THE MARGIN, AND IT KIND OF SHOWS A LITTLE BIT OF A GROWING TREND IN WISCONSIN.

YOU'RE SEEING MADISON, DANE COUNTY JUST HAVING BLOW-AWAY DEMOCRATIC VICTORIES LIKE 81, 82% IN THE MOST RECENT ELECTIONS.

MILWAUKEE SUBURBS WHERE YOU'VE SEEN FOR SONG REPUBLICANS HAVE BLOWOUTS, THEY'RE TIGHTENING UP.

I THINK MITT ROMNEY CARRIED THEM AND IT'S DOWN TO 5 PERCENTAGE POINTS NOW.

INTERESTING THING ABOUT THE SENATE RACE THE JUDICIAL CANDIDATE ON THE SAME DISTRICT BY ABOUT THE SAME PERCENTAGE AS THE SENATE CANDIDATE.

SO THERE WAS A SPLIT.

BUT IT IS REALLY INTERESTING IN THAT, IN THAT REPUBLICANS ARE GROWING THEIR MARGINS IN THE RURAL COUNTIES BUT IN THOSE SUBURBAN COUNTIES THEY'RE NOT DOING SO WELL.

>> Eric: ALL RIGHT.

>> OR NOT DOING AS WELL AS THEY ONCE DID, SO IT'S INTERESTING TO WATCH AND SEE WHAT'S GOING ON THERE AND, AGAIN, IT LOOKS LIKE THE SUBURBS MIGHT BE MAKING A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A DIFFERENCE HAN PEOPLE HAVE REALIZED IN WISCONSIN.

>> Eric: I'M GUESSING ABORTION MUST STILL BE AT PLAY HERE.

>> OH, YEAH, ABORTION WAS A HUGE ISSUE AND OF COURSE THE REPUBLICANS ARE NOT HELPING THEMSELVES.

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT LIMITING ABORTION AND THAT MAKES THE DEMOCRATS JUST SMILE.

WE ARE SEEING SOME PATTERNS IN WISCONSIN THAT CARRY OVER FROM WHAT WE SAW LAST YEAR, ABORTION, BUT ALSO THE REPUBLICANS ARE SELECTING CANDIDATES HO APPEAL TO THE PRIMARY VOTER, THAT IS MORE TO THE RIGHT, AND THEY'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT THE GENERAL ELECTION.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN THE SUPREME COURT RACE AND WHY THE DEMOCRATIC SUPPORTED CANDIDATE WON BY A SHOCKING 11 POINTS.

>> YEAH, I THINK CANDIDATE QUALITY MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE HERE.

KELLY HAS RUN TWICE, THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE AND HE LOST BY THE SAME MARGIN EACH TIME.

THAT TELLS YOU ABOUT WHAT HIS STATEWIDE APPEAL WAS.

BUT ALSO CAMPAIGN FINANCE.

I MEAN, DEMOCRATS AND THE LEFT ARE MUCH BETTER AT THIS, PARTICULARLY IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE CAMPAIGN, THEIR MESSAGING WAS DOMINANT ON THE AIRWAVES UNTIL THE LAST TWO WEEKS WHEN IT WAS MORE COMPETITIVE.

AND WHEN YOU FALL THAT FAR BEHIND AS A CANDIDATE AND SPENDING EARLY ON YOU GET TO -- YOU GET DEFINED AND YOU CAN'T COME BACK.

>> Cathy: SAY, WHAT DID YOU ALL THINK, I'LL START WITH PROFESSOR JACOBS, THE TENNESSEE LEGISLATURE.

THE TWO BLACK DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS WERE REMOVED FOR ISSUED OF DECORUM ON THE FLOOR.

THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT OFTEN.

>> IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT OFTEN.

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE CIVIL WAR THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN THREE PRIOR INSTANCES AND THEY INVOLVE THINGS LIKE CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS AND SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

THERE WERE OTHER WAYS TO DISCIPLINE MEMBERS FOR BREAKING PROTOCOL, AND I THINK HE BROADER CONTEXT HERE IS SIX PEOPLE WERE KILLED, INCLUDING THREE CHILDREN.

SO I THINK IN TENNESSEE THIS WAS A MISSTEP.

AND NOW TO THE LARGE WO OF THE LARGER CITIES, MEMPHIS AND NASHVILLE DON'T HAVE REPRESENTATION.

>> Eric: PROFESSOR RUGELEY, YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON HE TENNESSEE SITUATION?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS AN -- ERROR, YOU ADE A HERO OUT OF TWO LAWMAKERS.

AND WHAT COULD WELL HAPPEN IS THAT THE COUNTIES JUST TURN AROUND AND REAPPOINT THEM OR THEY RUN AGAIN AND WIN REELECTION.

BUT AGAIN IT WAS UNNECESSARY AND CONTINUES, BUILDS ON A LITTLE BIT OF A REPUTATION THAT THEY'RE GETTING THAT REPUBLICANS CHEAT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS AN UNFORTUNATE ERROR AND IT WAS A MISTAKE AND SOMETHING THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE.

>> Eric: REPERCUSSIONS POLITICALLY?

>> WELL, KAMALA HARRIS IS GOING TO TENNESSEE TO TRY AND MAKE THIS A NATIONAL ISSUE.

AND OF COURSE THE RACIAL ELEMENT WILL BE PLAYED HEAVILY HERE.

SO IN THE STATE OF TENNESSEE, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT'S A HUGE MAJORITY REPUBLICAN STATE AND BUT BEYOND THAT I THINK DEMOCRATS WANT TO NATIONALIZE THIS ISSUE.

>> Eric: CLARENCE THOMAS THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE ACCEPTING EXPENSIVE HOSPITALITY FROM A G.O.P.

BILLIONAIRE FUNDRAISER, SAID TODAY HE DOESN'T HAVE TO DISCLOSE THE LUXURY TRIPS.

I'M WONDERING, TINA SMITH NOW IS SAYING EXPAND THE COURT NUMBER, AOC IS SAYING I'M GOING TO FILE IMPEACHMENT PAPERS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS >> I DON'T THINK MUCH WILL HAPPEN AND CLARENCE THOMAS IS RIGHT THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BECAUSE THERE RE ALMOST NO DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS FOR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.

I THINK THIS MOMENT IT IS A BAD MOMENT FOR THE RULE OF LAW.

WE'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, CLARENCE THOMAS AT THE BECK AND CALL OF A VERY WEALTHY REPUBLICAN DONOR.

WE'VE HAD THE MOST EXPENSIVE STATE SUPREME COURT RACE IN HISTORY IN WISCONSIN.

AND THEN WE'VE GOT LARGE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS INCLUDING DEMOCRATS WHO THINK THAT THE INDICTMENT OF DONALD TRUMP IS A POLITICAL HATCHET JOB.

SO THIS IS JUST NOT GOOD.

YOU WANT OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM TO BE CONSIDERED FAIR BY EVERYBODY.

>> Cathy: SO LET'S ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED EARLIER IN THE WEEK WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT BEING ARRAIGNED AND PLEADING NOT GUILTY TO, WHAT, 34 COUNTS.

THAT WAS HISTORICAL, DID YOU WATCH IT, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

>> IT WAS THE TRUMP SHOW, AND I THINK DONALD TRUMP WAS PLAYING IT UP AND IT HAS ACTUALLY HELPED HIM POLITICALLY WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY TO A SIGNIFICANT EXTENT.

TRUMP IS BOTH THE PRODUCT AND THE ACCELERANT OF THIS SITUATION.

AND OF THE SORT OF BATTLES AND ILL WILL THAT CHARACTERIZES SO MUCH OF UR POLITICS THAT LARRY WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT.

>> I THINK THE KEY THING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK IN NEW YORK IS WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR OUR DEMOCRACY?

BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN THE BIG QUESTION AROUND DONALD TRUMP.

AND IT JUST BOGGLES MY MIND WHY IT IS THAT MANHATTAN D.A., YOU KNOW, KIND OF JUMPED THE QUEUE.

PROSECUTORS HAVE A LOT OF DISCRETION.

AND THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF INVESTIGATION GOING IN GEORGIA WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS AIDES WERE TRYING TO ALTER THE OUTCOME OF THAT ELECTION, INCLUDING DONALD TRUMP ON RECORDED PHONE CALL DOING THAT.

THERE'S ALSO THE ISSUE OF THE JANUARY 6TH HEARINGS.

THOSE ARE MORE CENTRAL TO WHAT DONALD TRUMP'S LEGACY IS GOING TO BE, WHICH IS HIS THREAT TO THE RULE OF DEMOCRACY.

>> Eric: PROFESSOR RUGELEY, ARE DEMOCRATS SAYING GO TRUMP GO?

OR WHAT'S THE LONGER TERM IMPACT POSSIBLY HERE?

>> IF THEY ARE SAYING GO TRUMP GO, THEY SHOULDN'T BECAUSE I MEAN, YOU DON'T EVER -- YOU DON'T EVER TAKE ANYTHING FOR GRANTED.

AND SO, NO, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IF THEY ARE, THEY'RE BETTING AGAINST THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

WHEN THEY INVESTED IN CANDIDATES DURING THE MIDTERM ELECTION THAT VOTED TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE WEAKER CANDIDATES THAT WAS A PRETTY RISKY STRATEGY.

I THINK THEY THOUGHT IN 2016 DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE THE EASY CANDIDATE AND HE PROVED TO BE OTHERWISE.

AND SO THEY MAY BE DOING IT BUT I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD.

I THINK THAT I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING LARRY SAID BECAUSE I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CLARENCE THOMAS AND THAT'S THE WHOLE ISSUE OF LEGITIMACY OF THE COURT.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT, YOU'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT AN OUTPUT, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LEGITIMACY, IT'S A PROCESS.

AND I THINK WE'RE STARTING TO HAVE PEOPLE THINK THAT THE PROCESS IS A BIT CORRUPTED.

I MEAN, THAT, YOU KNOW, THE ABORTION DECISION, THROWING OUT SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN IN PLACE ALMOST 50 YEARS AND NOW YOU HAVE A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE WHO'S HANGING OUT WITH RICH DONORS AND I MEAN, IT'S NOT GOOD AND IT BRINGS IN TO QUESTION THE WHOLE LEGITIMACY OF AN INSTITUTION BECAUSE YOU DON'T TRUST THE PROCESS ANYMORE.

WHAT HAPPENED IN WISCONSIN, YOU KNOW WITH, THE MONEY, I THINK THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE SEVERAL YEARS AGO THERE WAS A SUPREME COURT CASE, IT WAS MINNESOTA V. WHITE, THAT SAID, THAT REALLY KIND OF CHANGED THE ETHICS RULE IN THOSE RACES THAT YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO, YOU'RE NOT NO LONGER PROHIBITED FROM TALKING ABOUT ISSUES THAT YOU MAY BE RULING ON.

AND THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN QUESTIONS AMONG A LOT OF JUDICIAL SCHOLARS WHETHER OR NOT THIS WAS GOING TO LEAD TO JUDICIAL CAMPAIGNS BEING JUST LIKE CAMPAIGNS FOR ANY OTHER OFFICE AND SO IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT THAT MIGHT BE THE CASE.

>> YEAH.

>> Cathy: HOW DO YOU THINK, AS POLITICAL SCIENTISTS, WE REPAIR THE PUBLIC DISTRUST OF SOME OF THESE INSTITUTIONS?

>> WELL, I THINK IT STARTS WITH WHO YOU ELECT AND WHO THE LEADERS ARE BECAUSE THEY SET THE TONE FOR THE COUNTRY.

AND TO THE EXTENT YOU HAVE DIVISIVE POISONOUS RHETORIC FROM LEADERS THE WHOLE SYSTEM COMES INTO QUESTION.

AND WE NEED TO GET BEYOND THAT.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY SOLUTION SHORT OF FINDING THE RIGHT LEADERS WHO CAN BRING US TOGETHER.

EASY TO SAY, HARD TO DO.

>> I AGREE WITH STEVEN.

THE WAY I WOULD PUT IT IS OUR DIRECT PRIMARIES RIGHT NOW ARE BECOMING A SIEVE IN TERMS OF FILTERING OUT DEMAGOGUES, AND WE'RE SEEING IT A BIT ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BUT I WOULD SAY MORE ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

WE NEED A PROCESS IN WHICH WE'RE NOMINATING THE HIGHEST QUALITY CANDIDATES THAT ENJOY THE RESPECT OF THEIR COLLEAGUES IN THEIR PARTY AND OUTSIDE OF IT AND WE'RE NOT GETTING THAT ANYMORE.

>> AND THERE AREN'T A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE THAT IN POLITICS, THEY'RE JUST NOT IN THE HEADLINES, AND THEY'RE NOT SETTING THE TONE.

>> Eric: GOT A MINUTE LEFT.

PROFESSOR RUGELEY, RESTORING TRUST IN INSTITUTIONS.

>> I THINK IT STARTS WITH THE TOP.

I AGREE WITH OUR OTHER TWO PANELISTS, THAT WE NEED TO ELECT BETTER PEOPLE.

AND I THINK OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS NEED TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF PROTECTING OUR DEMOCRACY AND THE INSTITUTIONS AND THEY NEED TO ASSUME THAT RESPONSIBILITY AND IF NOT MAYBE THERE'S A BETTER CAREER FOR THEM.

>> Eric: REPUBLICANS FOUND A KLOBUCHAR OPPONENT YET?

ANY NAMES?

>> NOT THAT I KNOW OF.

>> NO, THEY'D LIKE O FIND SOMEONE BUT THEY'RE HAVING A HARD TIME BECAUSE WHO WANTS TO RUN AGAINST AMY KLOBUCHAR?

>> Eric: WE RAN LONG TONIGHT DUE TO ALL THE NEWS OF THE WEEK.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING.

WATCHING.

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