♪♪ >> LAWMAKERS SCORE A BIG VICTORY >> LAWMAKERS SCORE A BIG VICTORY IN THE EMERGENCY POWERS LEGAL BATTLE.

INDIANA VIOLATING FEDERAL LAW OVER SPECIAL EDUCATION.

PLUS, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS RALLIES ACROSS THE STATE AND COUNTRY AND MORE ON INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW FOR THE WEEK ENDING OCTOBER 8TH, 2021.

>> INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORTERS OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS, AND BY ICE MILLER, A FULL SERVICE LAW FIRM COMMITTED TO HELPING CLIENTS BUILD GROW AND PROTECT THEIR INTERESTS.

MORE AT ICEMILLER.COM.

>> THIS WEEK, INDIANA REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS SCORED A HUGE VICTORY IN THEIR COURT BATTLE WITH GOVERNOR ERIC HOLCOMB OVER EMERGENCY POWERS.

A MARION COUNTY JUDGE RULED A NEW LAW WHICH ALLOWS THE LEGISLATURE TO CALL ITSELF INTO SESSION DURING A PUBLIC EMERGENCY IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

>> HOLCOMB HAD ARGUED THAT ARTICLE 4, SECTION 9 OF THE INDIANA CONSTITUTION GIVES THE GOVERNOR THE SOLE POWER TO CALL A SPECIAL SESSION - WHICH HOLCOMB TOOK TO MEAN ANYTHING OTHER THAN A REGULAR SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE...AND, THUS, INCLUDES THOSE EMERGENCY SESSIONS IN THE NEW LAW.

BUT JUDGE PATRICK DIETRICK DISAGREES WITH HOLCOMB'S ARGUMENT.

ARTICLE 4, SECTION 9 SAYS "THE LENGTH AND FREQUENCY OF THE SESSIONS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SHALL BE FIXED BY LAW."

DIETRICK SAYS THAT SPECIAL SESSIONS CLAUSE HOLCOMB CITES IS MERELY AN EXCEPTION TO THE LEGISLATURE'S POWERS, NOT THE RULE.

LAWMAKERS GENERALLY GET TO DECIDE WHEN AND FOR HOW LONG THEY MEET, DIETRICK WRITES.

AND THAT MAKES THE NEW EMERGENCY POWERS LAW CONSTITUTIONAL.

>> HOW BIG A LOSS IS THIS FOR GOV.

HOLCOMB?

IT'S THE FIRST QUESTION FOR OUR INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW PANEL DEMOCRAT ANN DELANEY.

REPUBLICAN MIKE O'BRIEN.

JON SCHWANTES, HOST OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

AND NIKI KELLY, STATEHOUSE REPORTER FOR THE FORT WAYNE JOURNAL GAZETTE.

I'M INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATEHOUSE REPORTER BRANDON SMITH.

ANN DELANEY, ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THIS RULING?

>> HMM, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT.

YOU KNOW WHAT I FIND REALLY MUSING, THOUGH, IS THAT TODD ROKITA IS RUNNING AROUND PLANNING A MAJORAL VICTORY.

ORIGINALLY HE SAID THE GOVERNOR COULDN'T SUE WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION, GUESS WHAT?

HE'S WRONG.

THEN HE SAID THE GOVERNOR DIDN'T HAVE STANDING.

GUESS WHAT?

HE'S WRONG.

THEN HE SAID THE ISSUE WASN'T RIGHT.

HE'S WRONG ABOUT THAT, TOO.

WE'VE SAID THIS ISSUE IS GOING TO BE DECIDED BY THE INDIANA SUPREME COURT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT THE WAY THIS JUDGE IS -- THERE IS A LOT TO ARGUE ABOUT THE WAY THE JUDGE INTERPRETED THE STATUTE, AND THE FACT THAT WISCONSIN DID SOMETHING DIFFERENT WITH THEIR RADICALLY PARTISAN SUPREME COURT, IS NOT AUTHORITY FOR INDIANA.

FOR 170 YEARS, THIS HAS BEEN THE PROVISION IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT EVERYBODY HAS FOLLOWED.

WE'VE DONE IT THROUGH A CIVIL WAR, THROUGH WORLD WARS, THROUGH OTHER PANDEMICS.

AND NOW WE'RE BEING ASKED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND THE LEGISLATURE TO CHANGE THAT BECAUSE RIGHT WING REPUBLICANS ARE ANGRY THAT THEY DON'T HAVE AN UNFETTERED ABILITY TO INFECT OTHER PEOPLE WITH THE VIRUS.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S A GOOD REASON TO CHANGE 170 YEARS OF PRECEDENT.

I THINK THIS IS VERY, VERY -- WELL, IT IS PRELIMINARY, AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN APPEALED EVEN IF IT HAD GONE THE OTHER WAY.

THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO DECIDE THIS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER >> MIKE O'BRIEN, GIVEN HOW PRELIMINARY THIS IS, THIS IS THE TRIAL COURT RULING, IT WILL PROBABLY BE APPEALED TO A HIGHER COURT.

>> [LAUGHTER].

>> BUT IT IS ALSO THE FIRST TIME IN THIS WHOLE PROCESS THAT GOVERNOR HOLCOMB HAS LOST ANYTHING IN THIS COURT BATTLE.

HOW BIG A BLOW IS THIS FOR HIM?

>> THE WHOLE POINT WAS FOR SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE TODD HUSTON, SENATOR ROD BRAY AND HOLCOMB TO RESOLVE THIS QUESTION, AND THEY ALL ASKED OPENLY WITH THEIR OWN PERSPECTIVE CERTAINL IN MIND.

THE FACT THAT WHATEVER YOU ASK THE COURT A QUESTION, YOU MAY NOT GET THE ANSWER YOU LIKE.

FROM THE GOVERNOR PERSPECTIVE AND I'M SURE THE LEGISLATURE APPRECIATED THAT THE LOWER COURT SIDED WITH THEM.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR SAID AS RECENTLY AS JUST FRIDAY AFTERNOON THAT HE'S LOOKING AT IT, HE'S STILL NOT SURE WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO APPEAL OR NOT, WHICH IS NOT, FRANKLY, USUAL, WHEN YOU LOSE A CASE LIKE THIS THAT ANN RIGHT RIGHT IS EXPECTED TO BE ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT FOR THE GOVERNOR.

MAYBE HE SAYS YOU KNOW, YOU'RE RIGHT, THE LEGISLATURE CAN BE IN SESSION WHENEVER YOU WANT.

>> MAYBE WE'LL HAVE A FULL-TIME LEGISLATURE.

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT'S GREAT EITHER.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY, SPEAKER HUSTON, BEFORE HE WAS SPEAKER ROUTINELY HAD LEGISLATION THAT WOULD ACTUALLY SHORTEN THE LEGISLATIVE SESSIONS, HE THOUGHT THEY WERE IN SESSION WAS VOCAL ABOUT THIS TO LONG AND TOO OFTEN, THIS WAS CLEARLY, FROM THE SENATE AND THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHIP STANDPOINT, ALWAYS ABOUT AN EXCEPTIONAL PERIOD OF TIME AND UNPRECEDENTED TIME IN OUR STATE'S HISTORY, THE LEGISLATURE'S RIGHT TO HAVE AN ACTIVE VOICE IN THAT PROCESS, AS BIG DECISIONS WERE BEING MADE.

WE'LL SEE WHAT THE GOVERNOR DECIDES ON APPEAL AND WHAT THE SUBSEQUENT COURTS HAVE TO SAY.

>> NIKI KELLY, MIKE JUST REFERENCED THIS, YOU AND I AND A COUPLE OF REPORTERS TALKED TO THE GOVERNOR THIS MORNING ABOUT HIS REACTION TO THE LOSS, DID HE SAY PRETTY MUCH WHAT YOU EXPECTED TO HEAR?

>> I MEAN HE WASN'T REALLY, I ASKED HIM IF IT WAS A SURPRISE, HE SAID HE WOULDN'T USE THAT WORD.

BUT, YEAH, IT'S TRUE, HE WANTED ALL OF THE PROCEDURAL RULINGS, NOW HE'S LOST ON THE MERITS, THE BIG ONE, LET'S BE HONEST.

HE'S TALKED A LOT ABOUT THIS NOT BEING ABOUT HIS ADMINISTRATION BUT ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE EXECUTIVE VERSUS LEGISLATIVE.

GIVEN THAT BACKGROUND I DON'T KNOW HOW HE DOESN'T APPEAL.

I MEAN, IT IS A CASE OF FIRST IMPRESSION.

SO I WOULD THINK YOU WOULD WANT THE HIGHEST COURT TO WEIGH IN AND NOT JUST LET IT REST ON A TRIAL COURT RULING.

>> JON SCHWANTES, REALISTICALLY, EVEN IF THE LAW IS ULTIMATELY UPHELD AND THE LEGISLATURE IS ALLOWED TO CALL ITSELF INTO SPECIAL SESSION OR EMERGENCY SESSION DURING A PUBLIC EMERGENCY.

IS THE REALITY GIVEN INDIANA'S POLITICAL HISTORY, AND GIVEN HISTORY IN GENERAL, IS THE REALITY THIS LAW WILL PROBABLY BATTLE ARE -- PARDON ME?

GO AHEAD.

>> THEY'RE FAIRLY NARROW.

BUT THE IMPLICATIONS ARE NOT NARROW.

THEY -- AS NIKI SUGGESTED, THIS IS ABOUT FUTURE GOVERNORS OF EITHER PARTY OR BOTH PARTY AND ABOUT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY REGARDLESS OF WHICH PARTY CONTROLS IT.

I THINK IT WILL BE APPEALED IN ALL LIKELIHOOD AND I DON'T THINK WE KNOW YET EXACTLY WHERE THE LEGAL WORLD WILL COME DOWN ON THIS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WFYI'S EDUCATION DESK REPORTED THIS WEEK THAT INDIANA VIOLATED FEDERAL EDUCATION LAW FOR YEARS.

THE STATE ISSUED THOUSANDS OF EMERGENCY PERMITS SO EDUCATORS WHO WEREN'T QUALIFIED COULD TEACH SPECIAL EDUCATION.

>> THE STATE SAYS IT WILL END THE USE OF EMERGENCY PERMITS NEXT YEAR.

BUT SOME EDUCATORS ARE CONCERNED THE CHANGE WILL WORSEN INDIANA'S SPECIAL ED TEACHER SHORTAGE.

JENNY SMITHSON IS WITH THE INDIANA COUNCIL OF ADMINISTRATORS OF SPECIAL EDUCATION.

SHE SAYS ELIMINATING EMERGENCY PERMITS COULD LEAD TO MORE STUDENTS FOR FULLY LICENSED TEACHERS.

>> JENNY SMITHSON: AND HOW DO YOU HELP THEM KEEP FROM THAT BURNOUT THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A CASELOAD THAT'S WAY HIGHER THAN YOU SHOULD?

I MEAN, WE HAVE THE KIDS, WE HAVE TO SERVE THEM.

AND IF WE ONLY HAVE SO MANY LICENSED TEACHERS, THEN WE HAVE TO SPREAD THE LOVE.

>> SMITHSON AGREES THAT SPECIAL ED TEACHERS SHOULD BE TRAINED FOR THE JOB.

BUT SHE SAYS THE STATE NEEDS TO DO MORE TO ADDRESS THE TEACHER SHORTAGE.

OFFICIALS WITH THE INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION SAY THEY WILL WORK WITH COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES TO ESTABLISH MORE ALTERNATIVE ROUTES TO LICENSURE.

AND THEY PLAN TO PROVIDE TUITION REIMBURSEMENT TO SPECIAL ED TEACHERS.

>> MIKE O'BRIEN, INDIANA IS ALREADY DEALING WITH A GENERAL TEACHER SHORTAGE.

IS THERE REALISTIC HOPE IT CAN ADDRESS A SPECIAL ED TEACHER SHORTAGE, TOO?

>> NO.

BECAUSE THIS PROCESS OF -- THIS TEMPORARY LICENSURE PROCESS WAS BEING USED FOR THE VERY REASON THAT THERE WAS A SHORTAGE TO BEGIN WITH.

AND THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO LICENSE TO SOME DEGREE AND TRAIN TO SOME DEGREE PEOPLE, TEACHERS, TO BE IN THESE SITUATIONS TO TRAIN SPECIAL EDUCATION KIDS.

THERE IS A LOT OF LEGAL REQUIREMENTS THAT GO AROUND WHAT SPECIAL ED KIDS ARE ENTITLED TO.

THAT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE PERSON DOESN'T DELIVER THE SERVICES, OR YOU CAN'T PROPERLY STAFF THESE -- PROPERLY STAFF THESE SCHOOLS.

A COUPLE WEEKS AGO WE TALKED ABOUT LOCAL DISTRICT LICENSING, AND I KIND OF SLANTED AGAINST IT IN THE CONTEXT OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND PUNITIVE ACTIONS TAKEN AGAINST TEACHERS FOR INSTRUCTING -- OR TEACHING IN A WAY OR PERSPECTIVE THAT PARENTS DISAGREED WITH AND HAVING THEIR LICENSE AT RISK AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

THE ALTERNATIVE IS SCHOOLS GET TO HOME GROW THEIR OWN TEACHERS TO FIT THEIR NEEDS, IF THEY HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL SPECIAL EDUCATION NEED MAYBE THEY TAKE ON LICENSURE TEACHERS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL OR INDIVIDUALS INTERESTED TO DELIVERING THE SERVICE AT A LOCAL LEVEL OR LICENSED AT THE LOCAL LEVEL TO CATER TO THAT DISTRICT'S UNIQUE NEEDS.

IT IS A HUGE PROBLEM, IT IS GOING TO BECOME A BIGGER PROBLEM, WE NOW HAVE TO STOP THESE INTERIM LICENSES.

>> YEAH, ANN DeLANEY, TO THAT POINT, THE STATE SAID IT WILL STOP NEXT YEAR, STOPPING MORE IMMEDIATELY THAN THAT WOULD EVEN COMPOUND THE ISSUE EVEN MORE.

IS THE REALITY OF THIS -- IT IS NOT GOING TO BE FIXED OVERNIGHT?

>> THE REALITY OF THIS IS IT'S HAPPENED UNDER THE REPUBLICAN WATCH.

UNDERFUND -- WE ARE THE WORST STATE IN THE MIDWEST IN TERMS OF FUNDING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION.

THE WORST.

OKAY.

THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST.

WE HAVE DENIGRATED THE ROLE THAT TEACHERS HAVE PLAYED, THROWN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY INTO THE CLAM TO TELL THEM HOW TO TEACH AND WHAT TO TEACH AND WHAT TO TEST.

WE HAVE REALLY DISCOURAGED PEOPLE FROM GOING INTO TEACHING, AND THIS IS THE RESULT OF THAT.

WE HAVE TO PAY THEM COMMENSURATE WITH THE WORK WE'RE ASKING THEM TO DO AND WE HAVE TO MAKE IT EASY.

THE WAY TO DO THIS IS TO NOT DROP THE REQUIREMENTS.

THAT'S THE REPUBLICAN RESPONSE TO EVERYTHING.

IF WE CAN'T MEET THE BAR THAT'S SET OUT THERE, WELL LET'S LOWER THE BAR.

WELL THESE STUDENTS REQUIRE THE KIND OF EDUCATION AND THE KIND OF TRAINING THAT SPECIAL ED TEACHERS HAVE.

AND WE HAVE TO PROVIDE IT FOR THEM.

AND THAT MEANS INSTEAD OF TIM BROWN TALKING ABOUT HIS GIFT TO INDIANA CUTTING TAXES AGAIN, HE NEEDS TO PUT THE MONEY IN EDUCATION SO THAT WE CAN HAVE ENOUGH QUALIFIED -- QUALIFIED -- TEACHERS AND QUALIFIED SPECIAL EDUCATION TEACHERS WITHOUT LOWERING THE BAR AND THEREFORE LOWERING THE QUALITY OF THE SERVICES WE'RE PROVIDING.

LOCAL LICENSURE IS A TERRIBLE IDEA, BECAUSE THE IDEA AGAIN IS TO LOWER THE BAR, TO NOT REQUIRE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT ARE NECESSARY TO HELP THESE CHILDREN BE ABLE TO FUNCTION AS ADULTS.

AND REPUBLICANS HAVE GOT TO STOP THEIR WAR ON EDUCATION AND PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS AND LET'S FUND IT ADEQUATELY.

I THINK THE ONE IDEA THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION HAD THAT WAS GOOD WAS TUITION REIMBURSEMENT OF SOME KIND OR OTHER, OR PAYING FOR THEIR EDUCATION IN EXCHANGE FOR SOME YEARS OF SERVICE.

I THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA.

BUT THAT AGAIN REQUIRES FUNDS TO BE PUT BEHIND THE WORDS THAT REPUBLICANS ARE GREAT AT USING.

>> JON SCHWANTES, GIVEN THE REALITIES OF WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE A TEACHER IN INDIANA, ARE YOU PESSIMISTIC ABOUT THE CHANCE THIS NOT BEING A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR YEARS TO COME?

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

IT -- I THINK MARKET FORCES ARE AT WORK, A LOT OF FACTORS, AND MARKET FORCES CERTAINLY ARE ONE, REPUBLICANS WHO CONTROL THE HOUSE AND SENATE WOULD AGREE WHEN THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF SOME SORT OF EMPLOYEE IN SOME SECTOR OF THE ECONOMY, GENERALLY THE ANSWER IS NOT TWEAKING THE REQUIREMENTS OR THE TALENTS, BUT ACTUALLY MAKING IT MORE ATTRACTIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE AN INTEREST IN THAT PROFESSION.

SO I THINK CERTAINLY TUITION REIMBURSEMENT MIGHT BE AN OPTION PERHAPS THE UNIVERSITIES WHO PRODUCE TEACHERS CAN WEIGH IN WITH ADDITIONAL IDEAS.

THIS ISSUE IS NOT SPECIAL EDUCATION COMPONENT OF IT CERTAINLY IS A NEW TWIST BUT THE NOTION OF INDIANA HAVING A TEACHER SHORTAGE IS NOT A NEW ISSUE.

AND THE UNIVERSITIES THAT DO PRODUCE TEACHERS HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH THE STATE ON THAT.

I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THAT WOULD CONTINUE.

ULTIMATELY I THINK THIS ISSUE ISN'T SOLVED IN ANY REAL TANGIBLE AND LASTING SENSE UNTIL THE MARKET CREATES SALARIES THAT ARE COMMENSURATE WITH THE INTEREST LEVEL OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE PURSUING THESE CAREERS.

>> I WANT TO MOVE ON.

“MY BODY, MY CHOICE” WAS THE CRY OF MANY THIS WEEK AS HUNDREDS RALLIED IN DOWNTOWN INDIANAPOLIS FOR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

THE EVENT WAS PART OF A NATIONWIDE CALL TO ACTION IN THE WAKE OF THE CONTROVERSIAL TEXAS ANTI-ABORTION LAW.

>> POURING RAIN DIDN'T SEEM TO DAMPEN THE ENERGY, ANGER OR FEAR THAT MANY SPEAKERS AT THE RALLY EXPRESSED.

PEOPLE LIKE DOCTOR KATIE MCHUGH, WHO PROVIDES ABORTIONS IN INDIANA, DESCRIBED THE MOMENT AS “TERRIFYING” AND SAID THE “HORROR STORY” OF TEXAS IS COMING TO THE HOOSIER STATE.

>> DR. KATIE MCHUGH: NOW IS THE TIME FOR US TO BE LOUD AND CLEAR.

SAY IT WITH ME: ABORTION IS HEALTH CARE.

>> AND SPEAKERS LIKE INDIANA ACTIVIST DANA BLACK WERE FRUSTRATED THAT THE FIGHT FOR ABORTION RIGHTS IS STILL GOING >> DANA BLACK: I'M SICK AND TIRED OF CRUSTY OLD MEN WHO CAN'T NAVIGATE THEIR WAY AROUND A WOMAN'S BODY WRITING LEGISLATION TO GOVERN THEM.

>> SOME INDIANA LAWMAKERS HAVE ALREADY PLEDGED TO BRING A TEXAS-STYLE LAW - WHICH EFFECTIVELY BANS ABORTIONS AFTER SIX WEEKS - TO INDIANA NEXT YEAR.

>> NIKI KELLY, GIVEN THE BALANCE OF THE SUPREME COURT AND THE REALITY OF THE POLITICAL BALANCE AT THE STATEHOUSE - IS THE FIGHT FOR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ALREADY OVER IN INDIANA?

>> I THINK IT'S OVER, BUT I DO THINK THE FIGHT IS GOING TO BECOME MORE INTRA PARTY AMONG REPUBLICANS WHO WILL WANT TO GO SORT OF FULL FORCE, TOTAL BAN IMMEDIATELY, NOT WAITING FOR THE SUPREME COURT TO RULE VERSUS REPUBLICANS WHO WILL WANT TO TAKE MAYBE A MORE MODERATE APPROACH, YOU KNOW, TOWARD IT.

AND ALSO WE CAN'T FORGET THAT FOR BETTER OR WORSE, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING FIGHTING AGAINST ABORTION.

AND SO IF YOU GET RID OF IT, THAT KIND OF ELIMINATES SOME PEOPLE'S JOBS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF LEGAL WORK.

>> YEAH, THAT'S TRUE.

JON SCHWANTES, OBVIOUSLY YOU NEVER WANT TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM RALLYING FOR AN ISSUE, OR A CAUSE THAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

BUT IN THIS CASE, IS THE FIGHT KIND OF OVER HERE?

>> I THINK POLITICALLY, AS YOU POINTED OUT IN YOUR INITIAL QUESTION, BECAUSE OF THE MAKEUP OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT AND THE MAKEUP OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE DIE IS CAST TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

IN TERMS OF PERHAPS FURTHER RESTRICTIONS ON ROE v WADE OR AN ALL TOGETHER OVERTURNING OF THAT DECISION.

WHAT I DON'T THINK HAS LEGS NECESSARILY HERE OR ELSEWHERE IS THE ASPECT OF THE TEXAS LAW, THE ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM.

THE NOTION OF SORT OF WHAT HAS BEEN CALLED THE VILLAGE LATINTY ASPECT OF THIS WHERE PEOPLE ARE REWARDED AND ENCOURAGED, REWARDED FOR FILING LAWSUITS AGAINST SUSPECTED -- WELL, NOT JUST PROVIDERS, BUT ANYBODY WHO IS AIDING AND ABETTING, I THINK AS THE LAW SUGGESTS, THOSE WHO WOULD SEEK AN ABORTION.

THAT OPENS UP A REAL PANDORA'S BOX, SEEMS TO ME, AND REPUBLICANS WHO SPENT YEARS ON -- CONCERNED ABOUT SO-CALLED TORT REFORM.

THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS TOO MANY LAWSUITS -- HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS, BUT BASICALLY, BOY, IF THIS IS -- THIS IS A TORT REFORM ON A GRAND SCALE AND NOT PROBABLY WHAT THE BACKERS OF THE EARLIER TORT REFORM MEANT.

BECAUSE THIS COULD TAKE US INTO PLACES WE AS A SOCIETY DON'T WANT TO GO.

>> MIKE O'BRIEN IF REPUBLICANS GET EVERYTHIN THAT THEY WANTED, IF ABORTION IS ULTIMATELY LARGELY BANNED IN INDIANA, IT'S SUCH A TEN POLL ISSUE FOR FOLKS FOR SO LONG, WHAT DO YOU DO AFTER THAT?

>> I MEAN, TO NIKI'S POINT, THERE'S PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES THAT MADE AN INDUSTRY OUT OF FIGHTING THIS.

I DON'T THINK IT'S INSINCERE IN MOST CASES.

I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES THAT ARE JUST AGGRESSIVELY FIGHTING FOR THIS, WHETHER THEY'RE FIGHTING IN COURT OR FIGHTING FOR IT OR AGAINST IT IN THE STATEHOUSE, YOU KNOW, THE LEGISLATURE HAS POSITIONED, REPUBLICANS AND LEADERSHIP IN THE LEGISLATURE POSITIONED THEMSELVES TO SAY WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE A STATE THAT PASSES IN THIS OR OTHER CASES PASSES LEGISLATION FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF HAVING A COURT LATER MAKE A DECISION BECAUSE WE PASS A LAW THAT'S SO CONTRARY TO A PAST DECISION THAT WE'RE GOING TO JUST INVITE LAWSUITS.

NOW, WE INVITE LAWSUITS ANYWAY, BUT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY INTEND TO ALONG THE WAY.

AND THIS AND OTHER AREAS.

SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF THE TEXAS STYLE LAW IN INDIANA.

THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN LEGISLATORS WHO SAID THEY'RE GOING TO INTRODUCE -- I THINK IT HAS SUPPORT AND IT GETS LEGS, I DON'T THINK IT IS UNIVERSAL AMONG REPUBLICANS, MICHAEL CLARK, WHEN THE SUPREME COURT REASON THE TEXAS LAW, PEOPLE LIKE CLARK, AMERICAN FAMILY INSTITUTE, ONE OF THOSE PROLIFE ACTIVISTS AROUND, SPENT HIS LIFE IN THE STATEHOUSE FIGHTING THESE THINGS, SAID HE WASN'T COMFORTABLE WITH IT.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS A UNIVERSAL AGREEMENT AROUND REPUBLICANS THIS IS THE WAY TO GO.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF LEGISLATION.

>> TIME NOW FOR VIEWER FEEDBACK.

EACH WEEK WE POSE AN UNSCIENTIFIC, ONLINE POLL QUESTION IN CONJUNCTION WITH OUR ICEMILLER E-MAIL AND TEXT ALERTS.

THIS WEEK'S QUESTION: IS THE FIGHT FOR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS IN INDIANA ALREADY OVER?

A, YES.

OR B, NO.

LAST WEEK'S QUESTION: DO MOST AMERICANS CARE ABOUT THE NATIONAL DEBT CEILING?

JUST 26% OF YOU SAY YES.

74% SAY NO.

MORE PROBABLY SHOULD, GIVEN HOW KIND OF CLOSE THINGS GOT THIS WEEK.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO TAKE PART IN THE POLL GO TO WFYI.ORG/IWIR AND LOOK FOR THE POLL.

ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVISTS, LAKESHORE RESIDENTS, AND SPORT FISHERMEN IN INDIANA SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH — THE STATE HAS TO DO MORE TO PREVENT INDUSTRIAL SPILLS ON LAKE MICHIGAN.

INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING'S REBECCA THIELE REPORTS THAT WAS THE GIST OF A RECENT LETTER SENT TO GOVERNOR HOLCOMB AND THE COMMISSIONER OF THE INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT.

>> THE THE LETTER COMES JUST A FEW DAYS AFTER US STEEL LEAKED EXCESS IRON INTO A LAKE MICHIGAN TRIBUTARY CAUSING THE WATER TO TURN A RUSTY COLOR.

IT'S ONE OF MULTIPLE SPILLS THE PLANT HAS HAD IN RECENT YEARS — INCLUDING DISCHARGING 300 POUNDS OF THE CANCER-CAUSING CHEMICAL HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM IN 2017.

CLEVELAND CLIFFS, FORMERLY CALLED ARCELORMITTAL HAS ALSO HAD SEVERAL VIOLATIONS.

NATALIE JOHNSON IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF SAVE THE DUNES.

>> NATALIE JOHNSON: SOMETHING'S NOT WORKING BECAUSE WE CONTINUE TO SEE THESE EVENTS AND TRULY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

>> AMONG OTHER THINGS, THE LETTER RECOMMENDS THE STATE BETTER ENFORCE POLLUTION ON THE LAKE, RAISE THE AMOUNT COMPANIES PAY FOR VIOLATIONS, STRENGTHEN PERMIT REQUIREMENTS FOR DISCHARGING WASTEWATER, AND INCREASE FUNDING FOR IDEM.

>> JON SCHWANTES, WE DIDN'T GET TO TALK AS MUCH ABOUT THIS ISSUE LAST WEEK, SO I WANTED TO RETURN TO IT.

ARE ANY OF THOSE THERE WAS ANOTHER U.S. STEEL SPILL I THINK YESTERDAY.

SO ARE ANY OF THESE PROPOSALS FROM THE LETTER REASONABLE TO EXPECT?

>> I THINK SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN AT THE STATE LEVEL.

CLEARLY I THINK WE'LL SEE ADDITIONAL ENFORCEMENT PERHAPS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, AS WELL, AT LEAST UNDER THE CURRENT FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION.

BUT HERE IN THE STATE, THERE ALREADY IS A PUSH WITHIN IDEM TO FOR INSTANCE RAISE THE FEES ON COMPANIES THAT DO DISCHARGE THAT THEORETICALLY WOULD OPEN UP SOME ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR INSPECTIONS AND ENFORCEMENT.

AND THAT TYPE OF THING.

I KNOW THERE IS A RELUCTANCE, THERE HAS BEEN TRADITIONALLY ON THE PART OF REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS TO BE SEEN AS BEING HURTING JOB CREATORS, AND CERTAINLY STEEL MILLS AND WHATNOT WOULD FALL INTO THAT.

AS THIS LETTER ILLUSTRATES, YOU HAVE OTHER CONSTITUENCIES, SPORTS FISHERMEN, PEOPLE ENJOYING DUNES.

IT IS NOT AS CLEARCUT FOR THOSE WHO WOULD NORMALLY SAY LET BUSINESS DO WHAT BUSINESS DOES AND CREATE JOBS.

THERE'S ENOUGH FRUSTRATION HERE ON THE PART OF OTHER CONSTITUENCIES SOMETHING I THINK WILL HAPPEN.

>> TO THAT POINT, MIKE O'BRIEN, THE FEDS ARE GOING TO DO ARE WHAT THE FEDS ARE GOING TO DO.

AT THE STATE LEVEL DO WE NEED TO FINE THESE COMPANIES MORE THAN THEY'RE ALREADY BEING FIND.

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WORKING?

>> IT IS AFFECTING NOW.

WE HAVE A NEW NATIONAL PARK THAT WAS A STATE PARK RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

THE EPA IS ULTIMATELY THE ENFORCER, THE ULTIMATE HAMMER.

THE STATE'S ALWAYS LIMITED AND DELEGATED A LOT OF THAT AUTHORITY, AS WELL.

>> ANN DeLANEY, TO THAT POINT, IS PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE THAT WE NEED THE EPA TO STEP UP AND DO A LOT MORE AND THAT AGENCY HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN NOT GREAT?

>> THE EPA STEPS IN WHEN THE STATE DOESN'T DO ITS JOB.

OKAY, THEY WOULD PREFER TO DEFER TO THE STATE.

CLEARLY IN THIS INSTANCE, THE STATE ISN'T DOING THE JOB.

THE FACT THAT THIS IS HAPPENING WITH SUCH REPETITION OVER AND OVER AGAIN AFFECTING NOT JUST SPORTS FISHERMEN AND THE PARK, BUT THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE IN THAT AREA.

IT IS RIDICULOUS THE STATE HAS THESE TEENIE TINY LITTLE FINE US, DOESN'T DO THE INSPECTION AND THE PERMITTING.

WE HAVE THE RESOURCES FOR THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY IN THE SURPLUS.

IT IS TIME FOR THE GOVERNOR TO STEP UP AND SAY WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO ENFORCE ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS.

WHAT AN IDEA?

>> NIKI KELLY WE TALKED TO THE GOVERNOR THIS MORNING, I ASKED ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

HE SEEMED NON-COMMITTAL, DO YOU THINK THAT'S FAIR TO SAY?

>> VERY FAIR.

HE JUST SAID REPEATEDLY WE'RE LOOKING INTO IT.

HE DIDN'T PROMISE ANY ACTION, OR FRANKLY SEEM THAT DISTURBED BY IT.

SO MAYBE WE CAUGHT HIM AT A BAD TIME OR SOMETHING.

>> MAYBE HE'LL HAVE ANOTHER STUDY COMMISSION.

>> NIKI, JUST, TO GET THE LAST WORD ON THIS, GIVEN WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IN THE HISTORY OF THIS STATE OVER THE LAST COUPLE DECADES, IS IT REASONABLE TO EXPECT IDEM TO DO MUCH MORE THAN IT IS ALREADY DOING?

>> PROBABLY NOT.

TO BE FAIR TO THEM, THE LEGISLATURE HAS SET SORT OF THEIR LEVEL AND POWERS, AND THE LEGISLATURE IS THE ONE THAT HAS PULLED BACK FROM IDEM WANTING THEM TO HAVE POWER IN RECENT YEARS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW FOR THIS WEEK.

OUR PANEL IS DEMOCRAT ANN DELANEY.

REPUBLICAN MIKE O'BRIEN.

JON SCHWANTES OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

AND NIKI KELLY OF THE FORT WAYNE JOURNAL GAZETTE.

IF YOU'D LIKE A PODCAST OF THIS PROGRAM YOU CAN FIND IT AT WFYI.ORG/IWIR OR STARTING MONDAY YOU CAN STREAM IT OR GET IT ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY AND ON THE WFYI APP.

I'M BRANDON SMITH OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING.

STAY SAFE, STAY HEALTHY, PLEASE GET VACCINATED IF YOU CAN.

JOIN US NEXT TIME BECAUSE A LOT CAN HAPPEN IN AN INDIANA WEEK.

♪♪ >> INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORTERS OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS, AND BY ICE MILLER.

ICE MILLER IS A FULL SERVICE LAW FIRM COMMITTED TO HELPING CLIENTS BUILD, GROW AND PROTECT THEIR INTERESTS.

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