[gentle guitar] ♪♪ Woman 1: Imagine bein' in a room with just yourself and then all of a sudden it feels like someone just came in behind you.

And you can't see them, but you can feel their presence, and then just imagine starting to just ask them a question about something.

And that's kind of the way it is for me when I talk to my ancestors.

But I am really afraid that people might actually think I'm crazy.

I'm scared of that.

So I'd like to go on a Generations Project journey to see if my impressions that I receive from my ancestors actually do match up with historical fact.

So it's really personal and vulnerable.

Everybody wants to believe that they can trust their heart.

[music finishes] - Hi, everybody, I'm Lise Simms, and each week on our show we bring you the story of someone who for one reason or another wants to get in touch with an ancestor, or maybe an entire generation of their family tree, and we help them do just that.

We're an ongoing project dedicated to connecting families across generations, and today that person is Emily Potter.

I love this open on you, Emily, because your "why", which is what we always start with, is so clear: I want to trust my heart.

Everyone wants to trust their heart.

But what does that mean?

Are you talking about instincts, intuitions?

Emily: I think, for me, it's just when you get into a place of your heart, that heart space, you might find a question or a word that leads somewhere special, and you want to be able to lead and know that it's gonna take you in the right-- in a good direction.

Lise: I don't think I know what that means — finding a word that leads you somewhere.

Just by being quiet and-- Emily: Yeah!

- ... sort of listening to yourself?

Emily: And I think it happens differently for everyone.

So, for me-- I mean, you might-- some people might just get rowdy, I don't know, but for me it's, it's a, it's a meditative space where I can just sit and, and feel something that I know that is not coming from myself, and, and so it's this, this heart space where I, I can finally feel, kind of, just a direction, maybe just a thought pattern, it-- it's taking me that way and I wanna lead it because it feels good, it's something that feels like it's, it's supposed to happen for me.

Lise: Mhmm, you started, um, by reviewing your family tree, and I know you did it in a different way than some — you paid attention to your heart as you did this, is that a correct way to describe it?

Emily: Mhmm.

- And we actually had a producer with you, during this time, to write down your impressions.

Emily: Mhmm.

Lise: And five family members... Emily: Kind of let themselves be known, with their name.

So we were looking at the pedigree chart and, and...

I just starting feeling that, that sense of heart with about five of them and feeling like, I'm curious, just that kind of a, a playful curiosity, where just maybe the h-- in, in my mind's eye, it was highlighted.

Lise: Well, let's talk about the specific highlights, because James Pleasant Rice is a name that was highlighted.

Emily: Yes.

- And what came up about James Pleasant Rice?

Emily: I was curious about, um... of all things, the way he smelled.

Both: [laugh] - So, I know, it-- sometimes it's, it's, it's, it's-- Lise: Did you think, What the heck?

- I know, I did.

Lise: We're gonna come back and hear lots about that, and there's actually a wonderful story around that.

The second person that stood out to you was Robert Cavanaugh, and his impression was... - I had the idea that...

I had the sense of, kind of, this low... self-esteem?

[laughs] I thought-- the-- I had a feeling about, maybe, that he had low self-esteem or he kinda didn't-- wasn't sure about himself.

It wasn't clear — nothing was clear, but I felt like I wanted to pursue that.

Lise: Well, i-i-i-in fact, that's really what your "why" is all about — Do these impressions, do my instincts, is following my heart, going to stand up to historical fact?

Did you have any fears that, What if it doesn't?

Emily: A million!

Lise: Of course.

- Of course!

Uh, I-- it's totally possible if-- where it's so subjective — a feeling, a thought-- Lise: So why take the journey?

Emily: 'Cause I really wanna know!

- Okay, so this is where we begin, it's so exciting!

You start at the Family History Library in Salt Lake City, there's a Generations Project researcher that is helping you begin your research with your first two ancestors, and they are James Pleasant Rice — What did he smell like, what am I, crazy?

[laughing] And... Robert Cavanaugh — I feel-- a feeling of low self-esteem.

Let's watch this amazing process.

[paper unfurling] Emily: I was interested in the way he smelled, and I don't even really know why I asked that question, but, but just making him human, making it real, um... - That's a kind of interesting question, I'd say when a lot of people come here to the Family History Library that's not their first reaction — What did my ancestor smell like?

It's a little bit-- it is a harder thing to find, in a record, as you're reading, you know, birth, death, marriage records, you're not gonna see a little description of what they smelled like.

A lot of people are excited if they find a physical description.

This is a copy of the 1880 United States federal census.

And this is your ancestor, James Pleasant Rice, right here, and one of the nice things about the 1880 census is that it will tell you their occupation.

So, right here, this column... Emily: Teamster.

Genealogist: Perfect.

And the modern-day equivalent is gonna be, like, a truck driver.

So someone who is hauling supplies.

So, in 1880, what that would've equated to is someone who was driving a wagon.

He would've had-- Both: Horses.

- And they... they can get under your skin.

- They can.

Long days out in the sun, lots of sweat... - Sweat.

- ... lots of horses.

- 'Kay, I'm imagining that.

Both: [laugh] Genealogist: Another thing, to go along with that, this is from a book that was published about a hundred years ago.

This man went to this town and just kind of described everything that he saw and experienced there.

So this is a very rare, but very valuable firsthand account of what someone as a teamster would've smelled like and those smells that were there in that town.

- Emily: Yeah, wow!

Okay!

Lise: "To one coming from the fresh air without, "the breath of that fiery bar-room was overpowering.

"The odors of the hustlers' boots, "redolent of fish-oil and tallow, "and of buffalo-robes and horse-blankets, "the latter reminiscent of equine ammonia, "almost got the better "of the all-pervading fumes of spirits and tobacco... "some reckless spendthrifts, at times, smoked... cigars..." ♪♪ - That, that does it.

[laughing] I can totally smell him.

- Good, I'm glad!

Emily: Can I have this?

Genealogist: Yes, you can.

Emily: So, I have another question for you.

Genealogist: Okay.

Emily: Um, this is the Cavanaugh line... Genealogist: All right.

Emily: ... and I was interested in Robert Cavanaugh.

I don't know why, but I felt, kind of, this sadness about it.

It's almost like he-- specifically that he had... low self-esteem?

And, I don't know-- that's, that's not gonna be h-- in the history books unless he kept a journal... Genealogist: We did look around and were not able to find any journals that Robert left behind.

But, in family history, you know, if you don't find your first thing, you know, always go to your next thing.

And, so, we looked at his family, and Robert had an older brother named Dennis Cavanaugh.

And we compiled this record that shows the different accomplishments that Robert and his older brother Dennis had, so, why don't you go ahead and read through these?

[quick snare drum] Lise: Dennis Cavanaugh's documented accomplishments were more numerous and popular than his brother Robert's.

Emily finds that local newspapers and other records called Dennis a war hero and a civic role model.

In contrast, public regard of Robert's accomplishments can only be inferred from census records.

Emily notices another salient example of their differing social status.

Emily: Dennis's name was on the father's headstone and Robert's was not?

Is that what... - Yeah, Captain Dennis Cavanaugh, may they rest in peace.

Here's a, a blown-up version-- - I don't know, I'm offended for him, like... Genealogist: [laughs] Emily: [scoffs] He could've, in just comparing himself to his brother all the time, Gosh, I really wish I was more like my brother, that, that could've been a source of low self-esteem.

Gosh!

I feel very confirmed by-- and backed up by the evidence that we found in this, this library.

Well, um, I'm gonna continue on my journey and getting to know some of these ancestors, and the next one I'm gonna go to is, um-- learn about Anne.

Her name is Anne Marbury Hutchinson, and, uh, I guess-- Genealogist: Really?

Emily: Yeah, do you know anything about her?

Genealogist: I do, she is actually very famous.

She is a very influential individual and has a large posterity, that you are a part of.

And if you go downstairs there is actually a huge, about eight-foot, wall display of her.

And you'll see some of your cousins on there.

- H-here?

- Here.

- [breathlessly] Oh my gosh.

Now that's just a coincidence, isn't it?

Both: [laugh] Genealogist: I want you to know it's not something that we put together — the Generations Project didn't put it together.

She... is a very famous individual.

Both: [laugh] - Okay, I'm gonna go see it!

Genealogist: Okay!

- [laughs] Wow.

This is fun.

I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't know that she was famous, and she's part of my ancestry.

Um, but just-- there just happens to be a painting in this library that we're at right now.

But I'm excited to find out more about that.

[intriguing music] [breathlessly] Oh my gosh!

♪♪ [breathless laughter] Oh my gosh!

It's huge!

It's h-- ... Um... [laughs] I am so overwhelmed here.

[laughing] Oh my gosh.

[exhales] Okay.

[laughs] This is, um... she's one of my ancestors, and she's on this huge wall?

What the heck?!

Mitt Romney!

What?

[laughs] What?!

Did you see this?!

Franklin Roosevelt.

[gasps] George Bush.

Okay, this is getting very fascinating.

I don't even really know how I feel, but I think-- just imagine that it's your first time ever meeting a friend that you... [emotionally] or, like... Maybe, maybe people who do genealogy already know this feeling... but I've never had it before, so that's how I feel.

Some people do this genealogy thing that seems really boring, actually.

[laughs] I'm like, Gah, why would anybody do that?

[laughs] And it's because of this feeling right now and this line.

It just keeps going, and...

I, I love people.

It-- the, the chance to have these people become real, to have Anne become real, is... is overwhelming.

♪♪ Lise: Anne Hutchinson was a Puritan Englishwoman who lived in Massachusetts Bay Colony soon after it was founded, in 1629.

Emily meets author Eve Leplant at an area where Anne lived, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, called Newtowne.

♪♪ - I'm continuing on this journey to find out if my spiritual intuition and my impressions actually match, match up with facts.

And you're the expert, and, and so I wanna tell you some of them, and you can let me know if any of them match.

[laughs] I, I had an impression that she was a spiritual leader, or a spiritual, uh, healer, and that she served God — that was a really important part of her life — and, um, the word "witch" came to mind, and I don't know if that means anything, but I'm just-- - It does.

- Oh.

[laughs] Okay, that's fascinating.

Eve: John Winthrop called her a witch in his journal, and by the other men of Boston, Massachusetts' power and leadership, she was considered a witch — that's why they had to get rid of her.

So there were two trials about her, uh, unorthodoxy.

And one was here in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in the First Church, and one was in Boston, Massachusetts, in the First Church there, and at the trials, particularly the church trial, the things that were said about her, you know, the fact that she was called a witch and, uh, you know, satanic and evil and this scum, the language that was used by the ministers against her was really revolting.

Even though a woman could not hold a position of power in the church, she really effectively had a position of power within the homes, and perhaps the female community, and in-- within the Puritan community, she was one of the people who stood out, as time went on, as being too powerful in the wrong way, and so she was silenced herself.

Lise: In 1638, Anne was excommunicated from the Puritan church and banished from Massachusetts Bay Colony.

After she left, she and her family became some of the original founders of Rhode Island.

Anne was one of only two female co-founders of an original British colony.

[music fades out] Eve: I wrote a book about Anne Hutchinson.

I actually brought you a copy as a gift.

- No way, I'm so excited!

Oh my goodness!

- So, I, I, I titled it American Jezebel, which is sort of like a biblical equivalent of witch.

And it was very difficult to do that because I think for her it would've been hard to admit she was an American Jezebel.

Emily: Oh.

My.

Goodness.

This is so inspiring and so exciting.

Eve: And you can also see a statue of Anne Hutchinson in front of the, uh, Massachusetts State House, which I recommend you go take a visit.

Emily: [laughs] ♪♪ Oh my gosh, can you believe this?!

I am so-- I am so stunned, I am incredibly... [laughs] excited.

The word "witch" meant something!

The fact that I felt that word, that was a scary thing for me to actually have that word come to my mind, and trying to label someone like that?

And then, she was a spiritual leader, and that-- ahh!

Oh my gosh!

It's so amazing to me, because Anne has been the most specific in talking to me, and the first word that came to my mind when I heard Anne's name, long ago, was "angel" — it was first "angel" and then it was "witch" in my mind.

I think it's because Anne actually has dedicated herself to be one of my-- one of my guardian angels.

I don't know if our paths are gonna be similar, or, just, she has things to teach me, but she specifically said "angel."

And so I am, I am embracing that, I'm, I'm surrendering to the fact that perhaps Anne Hutchinson would like to be one of my guardian angels and I do not mind that one bit.

That is such an honor to me, so I'll take that.

[laughing] Doin' a little jig.

[laughs] That is so-- [laughs] I'm just so validated, so validated.

Talking to an expert is a really good idea.

[laughs] Yay.

♪♪ Yayyy!

♪♪ [laughs] I feel like dancing!

I feel like shouting for joy.

I think that if she was the spiritual leader that she was, th-th-there's something-- there's something motivating about being spiritual, actually.

It's fun, it's fun for me.

And so I, I don't know if that's something that we share in common, but I feel like dancing, and so I hope that we continue to be in touch with each other.

♪♪ Lise: Emily investigates two more ancestors to see how her spiritual intuitions stand up to facts.

One is third great-grandfather Charles McCarthy, and the other is Emily Morgan, Emily's great -grandmother and namesake, remembered by the name Gongee.

Both lived the majority of their lives in the state of Minnesota, so Emily travels there to continue her research.

Before she officially begins her research on Gongee she meets with Mary Tracy O'Keefe.

Mary, also a descendant of Gongee, is an author and director of a holistic health center called Women Well, where she meets with Emily.

Emily: Wow.

You know, this is exactly where I should be.

[laughs] This is so beautiful-- - Got goose bumps that you're here.

- Wow.

- Isn't this something?

So, if you had that feeling, I am assuming you, you are a very intuitive person.

What I want to tell you and share with you is that that intuition that, that you're sensing is very much part of your Celtic heritage.

- Really?

- Yes, there's a lot of Irish in your genes.

- Mhmm.

Mary: They have a concept of soul friendships.

And in, in, in Celtic, it's-- uh, the word is "anam cara."

That's Gaelic for soul friends.

- Anam cara.

- Anam cara, isn't that beautiful?

- Mhmm.

- The Celtic people would have one person that they feel very connected to, heart to heart.

You know, it's almost like they've known them before?

Time, distance, age doesn't matter.

And the other thing about the Celtic is the women were the strong leaders.

The monasteries were run by women, and so there's that strong tradition of spiritual leaders.

So, you're part of that tradition.

Do you know what I mean?

Emily: Yes, I do.

Mary: Yeah.

- I'm actually quite validated.

I do feel ancestors near me, especially in the last year.

Mary: It's also part of your Christian heritage, that the whole idea of the communion of saints is this whole idea that love never dies, that we stay connected with those we love long past their earthly existence.

Isn't that beautiful?

Emily: So I have a question about that.

So you are from a Christian faith, and there's very much, kind of-- there's regulations and rules in organized religion and we don't talk about things outside of that box.

- Yeah.

- How do you, how do you fit it all in, together?

Mary: You know, they're worried about you hallucinating or things like that.

- Yeah, that's a good word!

- And that's a logical thing!

And my priest, eh, he said, Maybe you're just imagining what your parents would say, and I said to him, I said, But you have to be open to the possibility that you get information in your logical, analytical mind, I might get 'em in a voice, somebody else gets it in a dream, we-- th-these are all ways that God talks to us.

Plus, the Bible says that God's not in the fire or the wind or the storm, God is in the still, small voice.

♪♪ Well, God bless you on your journey and I know you're gonna learn some exciting new things, I'm happy for you.

Emily: Thank you.

Mary: All right, stay in touch!

All right, buh-bye.

Oh, Emily!

Emily!

I forgot I have something I wanna give you!

Emily: [laughing] Okay.

- You know, I was thinking about looking for something that would remind you of, uh, Gongee, our, our grandmother, your great-grandmother, and a voice kind of told me to give you this.

And this was a necklace of hers.

And you're the first-- - [breathlessly] Oh my gosh.

- ... you're the first of your generation named Emily... - Yes.

- ... and so I know she wants you to have that.

- Wow.

- This is a thing that I think belongs now with you.

- I'll take it!

I receive it fully.

- Enjoy it.

- Wow, thank you.

- Ohh, you're welcome.

Good luck with the rest of your journey.

- [softly] Thank you.

Mary: Buh-bye.

- Bye, Mary.

Lise: Mary Tracy O'Keefe's brother, John Tracy, meets Emily in Stillwater, Minnesota, where their mutual grandmother, Gongee, lived during the early years of her married life.

Emily: I've always been told that my great-grandmother Emily should be my guardian angel because I'm named after her.

That would be a good story, but the truth is I don't really feel that.

John: So welcome to Stillwater!

- Thank you so much, I'm glad to be here!

So I've always wondered if Emily was actually one of my angels-- John: Oh... Emily: ... and, um, I-- it feels, it feels that she, eh, hasn't actually been assigned to me as a guardian angel, but more so that she cares about her family so much, and so she's wanted to know, um-- you know, she wants me to, to feel that closeness and get to know her and have that personal relationship begin.

- Mhmm.

- Because when I got to know her, when I was like eight... - Mhmm.

- ...

I was scared of her, actually.

- Oh, we all were!

- [laughing] Really?

- She, you know-- she was a really, um, strong woman.

And, um, because of that, you may have felt some fear, but she really... Emily: [laughs] John: ... she kept her kids in line.

Emily: So you-- so your-- this is part of your memory, growin' up, is that Gongee would take people on tours of the-- her beautiful little town, and then she'd take you here for ice cream after.

John: Yes.

And when-- and as I said, uh, earlier, Gongee-- we would go through the town of Stillwater and all of these neighborhoods, and Gongee would point out every house, and she knew every name, and she was caring, strong-willed, very faith-based.

She was basically a single mom for many, many of the years, um, where she had to make sure her kids kept the faith.

Emily: Yeah, yeah.

I guess, because, before I came on this journey, getting to Stillwater and meeting you and hearing these, I kind of felt that Gongee-- like, coming to her was kinda like coming to the queen of the family.

- Oh.

- Kind of like, uh, Here I am... about to go to the throne, and I, I have to kind of din-- oh boy!

- Well, she would get up from that throne and give you a big hug.

- Oh, see, I love that!

Thank you for saying that.

- That's what Gongee would do.

There's no doubt.

Lise: Another Gongee grandchild, Steve Tracy, meets Emily at 1018 West Olive Street in Stillwater, where Gongee's young family lived.

[gentle guitar finishes] Steve: I, I known a lot about her.

I know her joy and I know her pain, okay?

I mean, she was a, uh, soul friend, you know?

We, uh... Emily: Actually, I'm, I'm really interested the way that you just said it — your experience with, with Gongee, with, with Emily, is a soul friend, and that's something that Mary talked about in the Celtic tradition, is that there's soul-to-soul connection, that happens very often, and, and you're experiencing that with her.

- Anam cara, you know?

Soul friend.

- Yeah!

So you know that, okay.

Steve: We are connected.

I'm in her presence, sitting with you.

I'm absolutely confident of that.

- [laughs] Yayyy.

- Yay.

She was powerful — she went through a lot, starting here, you know, in 1937.

Her husband left her after, uh, 20 years, 5 kids.

Told Emily he was going to, um... going to the cleaners, and, uh, went to Alaska.

And, uh... - Oh... - Yeah.

Emily: Wow.

Steve: She was deeply, deeply hurt and really afraid.

Such remarkable significance to her was sitting-- like, I'm overwhelmed.

Here's where we're sittin'.

There's Charlie.

Emily: This is the same... - Same... - ... the same porch!

- Same porch.

- Wow.

And this is Emily.

Steve: And that is Emily.

You're, you're going to learn a lot more.

Eh, about 30 years ago I was sitting at Emily's, uh, nursing home, and, uh, I made a video tape.

She talks about a near death experience she had.

Her parents were both there, the doctor was by her side, and there was a priest there, and, uh, she says, uh, I almost died.

I could feel it, I could feel where I was goin'.

And, uh, the, the priest whispered in my ear, Emily, you're not going to die.

[traffic passing] [emotionally] She said, I always... feel like I have an angel on my shoulder.

- She did?

She did.

She said that.

[laughs] Wow.

She believes in angels.

[traffic passing] Steve: She was a beautiful woman.

This was about a year before she died.

It was just she and I, and, uh, we were having a conversation as intimate as this conversation.

- I can't wait to see it.

- I can't wait to hear what you think when you do.

- Thank you.

- [through computer] Let me say a little prayer.

Steve: [through computer] 'Kay.

[light clattering] Does it scare you at all?

You know, the whole process of dyin'?

No?

- I came close to it, you know, when I was between 18 and 19 years old.

Did I ever tell you that story?

Steve: I don't think so.

- Oh, my mother had to come to the mound, to where I was in school-- Steve: Mhmm.

Grandma Emily: ... to get me, and I had typhoid pneumonia.

I was in a coma quite a while.

My mother was kneeling at the foot of the bed.

I was gonna die.

And I can remember the sensation, of-- a s-- um, it's feelin' like you're in clouds or somethin', it's just beautiful!

Steve: Hmm.

- And, uh, I was kind of mad after that, that I... that I came-- you know, came out of it.

Steve: Yeah.

Grandma Emily: Oh, it was just bliss, and I think that something happened to me that I c-- it's given me the g-- the grace and the help to go through all I've gone through.

So I feel that He's had His arms-- His hand on my shoulder all my life, since I was 19.

- [softly] Wowww.

Steve: I'm sure you have.

- That's exactly how I remember her, in that exact chair.

And, uh, that's where I first kinda saw her as being this scary [laughing] woman.

Which is funny now, looking at that, and nothing about that is scary at all, she's beautiful!

She's beautiful, and so sincere, and... and before she could even start a conversation she needed to say a prayer.

That's what I do a lot of times, and I think she was talking about an, an angel or, or some presence in her life.

That is very significant to me, that is very validating.

That's like, ah, that's sacred.

That's sacred.

Yeah.

Hm.

I'm glad I saw that.

[singing] ♪ All creatures of our God and King, lift-- ♪ Lise: To identify further with Gongee, Emily next visits St. Thomas More Church in St. Paul, where Gongee prayed and attended mass for decades.

- [singing] ♪ ... alleluia ♪ ♪ O, rushing wind and breezes soft ♪ ♪ O, clouds that ride the winds aloft... ♪ [speaking] So I'm looking here at this necklace that she gave me, and I'm sitting in this church where she prayed for years and years, and it, it feels like she wants me to pray here, so I was praying through song, and...

I know why she's not my guardian angel.

I know why.

[laughs] She told me why.

It's because, um... [emotionally] I don't need her to be.

Because I have God.

[shaky breath] And so, I have these other angels, I have all these other messages, but this is the only message that she would tell me, is to continue check in with God-- continue to check in with God.

That was her reminder to me — like, Don't try to talk to me in this church, but talk to God, and that makes a lot of sense.

But I do trust my feelings.

I trust these very, very strong feelings.

I don't think it would be much different if they were sitting right here.

I think Emily would say exactly the same thing as if she was right here, talking to me right now, in physical form.

[singing] ♪ ... alleluia ♪ [deep breath] [calm music] Lise: Next, Emily investigates her ancestor Charles McCarthy, whose presence filled the room when she first learned his name, but who has remained curiously silent about the reason for his visit.

Charles lived most of his life in Marysburg, Minnesota, around 90 miles southwest of St. Paul.

Looking for his marriage certificate, Emily visits St. Peter — a city near Marysburg that has been a social hub for the surrounding towns for many years.

Instead, she finds a copy of Charles' obituary and a contemporary newspaper article about a winter accident he had.

- Oh my goodness.

Both feet amputated — that's the first thing I see here.

Wow, the-- so then, the article, I guess: "The wages of sin are death — "while not death in Charles McCarthy's case, "it would have been much better for him "had he died... "Charles McCarthy is... well known in St. Peter, "in fact known in this city as quite a character, [chuckling] "as he rarely ever visited our city "without leaving as full as a tick.

"He was in St. Peter Dec. 7th, "and, of course, got full, and started for home.

"It was a cold night, "and on the way Charley fell asleep, "and the team wandered from the road "and mired in a slough, "and when Charley came to his senses "both his feet and legs were badly frozen "almost to the knees, "and one of the horses frozen to death... "On Sunday last "Dr. Schultz amputated both feet... ♪♪ "The wages of sin has made him, if he lives, a pitiful cripple for life..." Who is this writer?

[laughs] "... to our mind a condition worse a good deal than death."

What?!

This writer was not very kind to Charles McCarthy.

Very much blaming him and saying the word "sin" — just saying he deserved what he got.

I guess that's just kinda fascinating take on it.

Yeah.

[papers rustling] Okay, this looks like it's-- it-- this is the obituary.

"Charles McCarthy died "at the hospital in St. Peter... "His remains were laid to rest "beside those of his wife, "who preceded him to the grave... "He was buried at the Church of the Immaculate Conception in Marysburg."

He died in-- at a hospital here in St. Peter, so I am curious to know if, um, he had any kind of.... you know, life after amputation.

So I'll maybe go look and see if this hospital is still around, and... see if we can see anything more about that.

[laughing] Oh my gosh.

Okay.

[laughs] [papers rustling] So...

I guess this is the hospital that he was in after he had his amputation.

Um, I'm a little confused, though, um... about what-- what's going on here, actually.

[gate squeaks] It doesn't seem like it's a regular hospital — let's just say that.

'Cause regular hospitals don't have barbed wire.

[gate clangs] So... [intriguing music] Lise: Hospital historian Ken Zeigler meets Emily to answer her questions about Charles' stay there.

- And I'm c-- a little confused, 'cause, um, I saw barbed wire out there, I just wanted to know what kind of hospital is this, and can you tell me ...?

- Well, um... - Kind of explain it to me?

- ... the hospital has changed quite a lot since, uh, your relative was here — it's for, um, uh, mentally ill and dangerous sex offenders, child molesters, that sort of thing.

It's actually a prison.

It was not like that when he was here.

- Oh, okay.

- When he was here, it was called the, uh, Minnesota Hospital for the Insane, uh, and they used to call this an asylum.

Emily: So, during the time that he would've been here, it was for the insane?

Is that...?

Ken: M-mainly, yes.

Various mental illnesses, ranging from depression and, uh, paranoia, what we call common mental illnesses.

Emily: Well, so, my ancestor, he had to have an amputation of both legs, and so... it's possible that he suffered from depression, you're saying.

That, that could've been one of the things, but we don't know, but-- - A normal reaction to losing your legs would be depression.

- Yeah.

- Especially if you were an active person.

Uh, we had, uh, patients here, quite a few, who never were mentally ill a day in their life.

But there were, there were not that many other public facilities that were set up to care for people.

Uh, these are some records... of-- uh, and it lists him on the admission records.

Emily: Oh, wow!

So you're telling me you don't think he was insane.

[laughing] - No, no, I don't!

- I just really wanted-- I wanted to hear you say that.

Both: [laugh] Ken: No, I don't think so.

You see here: he has a, a problem with epilepsy, but it also states here he has fear of bodily harm.

Emily: Oh... His obituary actually said that he died at the hospital.

Ken: Yes.

Emily: I guess that's a little bit sad to me that he died in a hospital.

Ken: Well... Emily: [indistinct] Yeah, that's... Ken: It probably, at the time, was the best place for him.

Emily: Mmm.

Ken: Because he got the care that he probably would not have gotten in the community.

Emily: [softly] Mhmm.

Ken: Uhh, this is a, a photograph of some of the cemetery stones.

The, the markers were just a simple number, eh, that corresponded to a registry book, that told ya who it was, where they died, when they died, what they died from, when-- and, and so forth.

And the disposition of the remains.

His grave marker — he would be over across Highway 99-- Emily: I read that Charles McCarthy was actually buried at Marysburg cemetery.

Ken: Oh, okay.

- Yeah.

Ken: Uh, well, our records indicate that he was buried here.

- You have records that are-- that-- this-- that this is wrong, that I read?

- Well, uh, our records indicate he was buried here, in, uhhh, uh-- with the number 112.

- Oh my goodness, okay.

- Yeah.

Emily: Well, I wonder if I could go check out the cemetery, then.

Is that-- that's a possibility?

Ken: Oh yeah!

Emily: See his number.

Number 112.

How often does it happen that the records state that someone's buried in two different places?

I don't know.

Actually, for this journey, that's pretty fascinating, because at the beginning of the journey I said that my intuition could be right or wrong, especially when it's compared to facts, and yet here is a fact that two different facts are in complete contradiction to each other.

So, I think, I think I kinda like it that way.

[laughs] That, that we can be like, Well, the facts, the history books, say that it's like this, and like, Well, it depends on what history book you read, so...

I think if Charles McCarthy has a little bit of a sense of humor, maybe he's, he's kind of showing me, or my audience or anyone who'd like to judge this journey of mine, you can't really judge!

You just can't, 'cause you don't know anyone else's experience, and so, there's something in me that kind of likes that he has two different plots of land — that's kind of fun.

♪♪ 112!

Hello, Charles.

How's it goin'?

[laughs] Oh...

I wanna check in.

I just wanna sit and kinda check in to see and feel it through — if... if he came and wanted to be a part of this journey, then I think that he should see it through with me.

'Cause the pressure's on, you know?

There's a documentary crew, filming this whole thing, there's a whole live audience [laughs] watching.

[deep breath] If you have anything to say, I'd like to hear it.

I just, um...

I wanna validate your experience.

[deep breath] ♪♪ ♪♪ So I sat there for a very long time, and I-- the only thing I felt was, kind of, absence, um... it's as if he didn't really feel a connection to this land, and...

I thought that was kind of interesting.

I had an impression that he's just feeling kind of shy, that he's a little bit embarrassed the way that he actually became an amputee.

I, I didn't get a strong answer if, if he was buried there or not, but, but I did-- I am takin' it as an, an answer that I get to trust at this point that he didn't feel a very strong connection to that area.

Uh, and I don't know how I'll feel at this-- the... we're going to the Marysburg cemetery now.

I don't, I don't know how we're gonna feel-- or how I'm gonna feel there, but I'm gonna listen to it.

Lise: Emily next visits the town of Marysburg, where Charles McCarthy and his wife Bridget lived many years, until Bridget died and Charles was committed to the St. Peter Hospital for the Insane, 15 miles away.

Charles' obituary originally led Emily to believe that he and Bridget shared a headstone in the local church's cemetery.

Emily meets Larry Cortam, a local historian in the Marysburg area, to understand the last chapters of Charles' life, including his accident and his burial.

- Yeah, so I was told that you're the man to see — you're the local historian who could maybe give me some answers.

- Well, I, I think that you'll find, uh, that what I have to tell you will r-- substantially change your, your view of Charles.

- Oh!

- Not a little, but actually quite a bit.

The things that had happened to him and the things that the papers said about him were, uh, exaggerated, and rather irresponsible.

Emily: What?!

Larry: Well, it says, it says some kind of degrading things about, uh, Charles.

For one thing, if he wanted a drink, he could've come right to this town here in Marysburg, because he only lived about 1/8 of a mile over here.

And on top of that, I've consulted with, with people that have been in Minnesota their whole life, as I have, that have been out in really, really tough weather — people that have fallen through the lake and, and been frozen — I've looked at the weather reports, I've looked at the moon phases, I've looked at how much wind there were, the angles that he would come home, and this is just about the only way that it could've taken place: over here would be St. Peter, which is a town about 10 miles as the crow flies.

Uh, Charles would've left late in the afternoon, so he would've had about a half moon, he would be drivin' on a dirt road.

So he was coming down this trail, and he came to this point right here, and he made a mistake, and Charles simply drove right off of the end of the road right into the swamp.

Possibly, it wasn't a mistake — that he may have taken the slough intentionally, because sloughs and lakes and swamps were literally the freeway of winter.

They could drive unimpeded across those swamps and sloughs.

And he would've known this area because this Farrel here was, uh, the godparents of his third daughter.

- Oh!

- So it wasn't like he was dealing with somebody that he didn't know, or trespassing on land that wasn't friendly territory.

I looked up the weather that day, and, uh, that day, it was 30 degrees for a high and it was 15 degrees for a low.

The horses likewise would never have frozen to death because horses, uh, stay out in weather like that all the time.

So, something extraordinary happened that would freeze one horse and not the other and Charles up to his knees — and we know what that was.

When he drove out onto the slough, one of the horses broke through, the other horse did not break through.

Because there would be no reason for one horse to freeze and not the other.

Below the ice is mud, and the horse was literally, as it was described in here, mired in the mud.

So he would've unhooked the horse, the one that wasn't sunk, and when he went and tried to get the other one out, he was in the water up to his knees, just like the horse was.

I've known people that have fallen in the lake and, um, gone like 1/8 of a mile to get help.

When they started out, they were walking, but by the time they were at the end of the journey they were crawling.

And so he is described as "crawled to safety" — actually he was only crawling right toward the end.

If it hadn't been for the water that was leechin' away the heat, he would've been just fine.

He probably went to town to get something, because he had two horses and a wagon.

So that's how it would've went!

Emily: One of the words that came, when he was, kind of, speaking, is, um, that he's embarrassed.

He's embarrassed about the way-- the story that I'm learning about, and you're telling me that that story actually isn't true.

And so, I'm thinking-- I mean, it could be that he's embarrassed that this is even written about him at all, and if, if we didn't delve any deeper then that's what I would've known — that he's just this drunk that g-- was sloppy, ya know?

Larry: As ya look back in history, if ya look at what people accomplish it tells more of a clear story of what they were than, uh, some newspaper article.

And I would say that, from the things that, that Charles accomplished-- actually, Charles and my great-grandfather would've built this church together.

He just got a tremendous amount of bad press at the end of his life.

- Bummer.

[laughs] - Bummer.

- Poor guy!

- Poor guy.

- It just makes my heart go out to him and-- [laughs] Wow.

Larry: I also, uh, understand that, that you really wanted to know for sure if Charles is buried in Marysburg cemetery-- - Yeah... - ... or if Charles is buried over at St. Peter.

- Do you have information about that too?

Lary: I have an ultrasound here, and the ultrasound does ground disturbances.

And so here is the area that the McCarthys are buried in, and here is one grave in front of the stone.

Bridget would've died first, and if that's Bridget, Charles would have to be somewhere else.

And the only way that you would know is to go to St. Peter and do this same process, to see if there was a ground disturbance there.

If a ground disturbance is there, he's there.

You've cleared his name, now all you have to do is find out where he is.

[calm music] Emily: I have a feeling that the reason why Charles doesn't have much connection with this other site over where he most likely is buried is because Bridget is here.

It's totally possible that the reason why he was so embarrassed about this, this, uh, story, about how he lost his legs, is because it's just not true, according to this historian.

So that your name is now cleared.

And I, I hope — and I actually feel, right now, really emotional — that you are grateful for that.

♪♪ I would be.

♪♪ So then it says right here, "May their souls rest in peace," so maybe that's what's happening now.

Just a little bit more.

[deep breath] ♪♪ Lise: At the end of her journey, Emily goes to Resurrection Cemetery at St. Peter's Hospital, for the second time, to meet Jared Lampy from National Ground Penetrating Radar Services — the same company that performed the radar analysis of Charles' and Bridget's gravestone at Marysburg.

Emily: So I am really excited to know if Charles is buried here, and, uh, I guess you're gonna help me find that out.

- We sure will.

Uh, basically, this is ground penetrating radar, and it works basically in the same manner as sonar, but instead of using sound waves, it uses electromagnetic pulses that are released into the ground and bounced off something and come back-- comes back to the machine.

I'm basically looking for a hyperbola on the screen, uh, and that will signify the presence of where a burial is.

♪♪ Emily: Oh!

♪♪ Jared: That might be something right there.

So it's calibrated to this wheel — to a survey wheel here — and we basically pull it back to where the point where we see something... which is about right there.

We can see this distortion right here on the screen, and it's lining up exactly... with... - With 112.

Okay.

Jared: And it says that it's 4.72 feet from the surface.

Emily: Really?

Jared: Mhmm.

Emily: So that's enough evidence — is that what you're saying?

- I would say this is a positive identification of a burial.

- Okay.

I keep asking him why — why did he make himself known to me?

And the fact that we dug, and we then we dug more, and then we dug even further, and here we are, standing here with this-- a man with a radar-- [laughs] ... um, it's possible-- it's possible that he would like to be buried by Bridget.

That is some true love, that it-- from 1899 until 2010, he-- he's trying to make that message known.

It's totally possible.

And if that's what it is, I'm gonna listen to that, um, and so, just some good possibilities in the world for him.

[music finishes] - Emily... what a story!

I cried through part of that.

Um, I wanna talk about Charles.

Because Charles McCarthy was the one person — when you first started your journey and you felt these connections to ancestors — he didn't give you any specifics.

He was a presence.

And the one story we didn't tell was, our producer, who was writing down what was happening as you were having these experiences, felt a presence in the room before you acknowledged it.

Emily: Yes.

Lise: And I wish he was here to say it because it would have more impact like it did on me when he told me, but he said, I felt this, like, What's goin' on, what's goin' on?

And I looked at her, and she was just kind of looking, and then you commented on it.

So, what is the why?

Why did Charles McCarthy want your attention?

Emily: I, I had to really check in with that.

After going on this journey I came back and really just got into that heart space that I talked about, and, and he came, we had a great-- I had a-- I had the impression that he would like that rebur-burial, and actually to move his body to that unmarked grave — with just a... a number for his footstone — and to be moved and, and p-put next to Bridget.

Lise: And, in fact, that is exactly what you did.

- That's what we did.

Lise: And we have video of the experience so that all of our viewers can take this journey with you, and I'd like you to talk us through the experience — what's happening?

Emily: So, this is the plot, and I...

I was so grateful that we had help to dig, because, uh-- Lise: It requires help — you can't really go out there and just do it.

Emily: And if you see, you know, we-- the, the people there were extraordinary, so when we got down there... um, we had to be really careful, because the bones were actually so fragile, after so much time, that we had to really be very delicate in the way we, we extracted him.

And I, at this point, was looking at the, the remnants, the, the remains of my great-great-great- grandfather, and, and feeling this sacredness c-- really come over me... and, uh, and just felt that that, that spiritual impression that, uh, he was... you know?

Lise: What are these things that we're seeing here?

Emily: So, the news article about him said that he had his both feet amputated, when really he had just some toes amputated.

And, and this, well, surprised us, to find, uh, the prosthetic [clears throat] that were inserted in parts of his toes, and so-- [clears throat] Lise: Oh my gosh, who knew they had that-- Emily: Yeah, and we did the research and found that these different places, uh-- that was exactly what it would look like at the time, and... so we moved him as much as we can, um, to... Lise: There you are.

Emily: [chuckling] ... a casket.

And, I'm beaming, I look like I'm beaming.

It's just-- it's-- that, that spirit was so strong that you can imagine how special that was, so... Lise: In fact, the entire community gathered around and participated.

Emily: That was one of the joys of this experience, is to look around — I'm not alone at that, that experience, and uh... here we are, you know, coming together for this special cause, for this man that they had never met.

Lise: And... a Catholic funeral for him?

Emily: Yes, so there's a Catholic proc-procession.

Lise: This is in Marysburg.

Emily: This is in Marysburg, where he gets to be buried next to his wife.

We had a little c-- uh, ceremony, and, um, I was really honored — we had people come take off work, we had kids taken out of school for this special event.

And look at-- ya know, these people are, are historians, they're just regular farmers, they're just the people of St. Peter, Minnesota.

And, um, I even had some relatives of my own that were able to come as well, so very special — very, very personal for me.

- I know that people were whispering in your ear, [whispering] This is the best day ever.

Emily: Yes, even the-- - That had no relation to Charles McCarthy.

Emily: Yeah, one, one gentleman said, This is one of the most profound experiences of my life.

And, at the time, I have to be honest, it was all very overwhelming, very bewildering — What am I doing?!

And, honestly, I still don't have a lot of answers about that.

A lot of it is just going on, on this faith and this answer that this is something that Charles wanted, and I really don't know all the answers yet of why we did this.

My big question is, you know, I, I want-- I just wanna know-- the journey wants to continue, really, my relationship with Charles is continuing.

Lise: This is the ripple effect that we talk about.

I mean, to bring communities together to move someone's body to be near a loved one, and the effect it had on those around them — in fact, the newspaper ran a retraction about the original article, is that correct?

- Yes, that's correct.

- Stating the actual circumstances as we now know them to be.

Emily: Mhmm.

- Which... is a wonderful experience.

Your ripple effect just goes on and on and on.

- This is just the beginning.

Lise: One member of your community that your relationship has changed with is your mother.

- Yeah.

Yes, um... my, my big question-- my mom and I have, um... this shared faith — we both v-very much believe in, in God, and we just do it differently.

And so I've been afraid to talk to my mom about, about the way that my faith, kind of... Lise: Manifests.

- ... manifests, and... and, it's scary, you know, if-- it-- there's that line of crazy — that definitely happens — and I have to continually ask myself that question, or I have.

And, and so I've, I've had the, kind of, a-- I've felt a perceived closed door with my, with my mom.

And, this has opened-- we, we share now, uh, uh, more of a love for genealogy — my mom's always been really into genealogy, and, um, this has opened many doors and a lot of healing's happened because of this journey.

It's amazing-- Lise: The ripple effect!

Emily: A ripple.

- Well, did I understand correctly that your mom actually says, Emily, ask about... Emily: Yes.

- So she's asking you to tap into this instinct... - I said, Mom, you want me to talk to our dead ancestor?

Well, yeah, well, go ahead, what are they saying?

Well, get back to me on that.

Like, what are they saying?

Okay, I'll go check in-- - That has to-- Emily: and come back.

- feel good.

Emily: It's, it's, it's... it's more than I can ever explain to you.

My family's so important to me, and... and to be able to share as openly as I'm able to do now is more than I can possibly describe.

Lise: Thank you so much, Emily Potter, for sharing your whole beautiful story so openly with us.

- Yes.

Lise: We so appreciate having you here.

- I've loved every minute.

Lise: Good!

- I really have.

- Thank you so much for watching.

Please join us on our website at byutv.org.

I'm Lise Simms, and I'll see you on the next Generations Project.

♪♪