From news this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in 2018, when a man named Michael Cody was at work at a theater rehearsal.

Cody is a director and a producer based in Chicago, and that day started out as any typical workday.

Then came word that someone had shot and killed 17 people in a school in parkland, Florida.

It was perhaps another Sandy hook, another Columbine, and for maybe ten minutes, Cody recalls that everyone stopped and absorbed the tragic news.

But then they were right back to work.

In this country, school shootings happen every year, often multiple times a year, sometimes multiple times in a month or a week.

And Cody looked around, wondering how we could just go back to work.

He wondered how his own profession might help address this issue nationally, and so he created enough plays to end gun violence.

The series offers creative space for teenagers across the country to share their experiences of gun violence.

One play tells the story of a teenager watching their brother murdered.

Another focuses on a mother who stares at the street every day, where she watched her child die.

Enough is coming to Rochester.

And as PBS NewsHour reports in 2020.

Gun violence became the leading cause of death of American children, surpassing car accidents.

Before the next wave of voices joins the chorus against gun violence, we wanted to discuss it with the creator of the series, as well as some of the people involved in bringing these local productions.

It's all happening one week from tonight.

We'll tell you all about it coming up.

And I just want to mention right off the top here.

You might have seen that there was a mass shooting at an LDS church in Michigan over the weekend.

Just another example of news that seems to kind of bounce off us.

Instead of being absorbed in the way that Michael Cody wondered, why can't we absorb it?

Why are we becoming so numb?

He's on the line with us now.

The creator of enough plays to end gun violence.

Michael, welcome.

Thanks for being with us this hour.

Thank you so much for having me.

And, I would say on the line, not on the line that Michael's on the line in studio with me.

Welcome.

Larry Doogan, artistic director at Asbury Community Theater.

Thank you for making time for us.

Thank you.

And across the table from Larry, John and Judy Messenger are here.

They're going to be performing in the upcoming series.

Judy, welcome.

Nice to see you.

Nice to see you as well.

And John, thank you for being with us as well.

Thanks, Ellen.

Listeners, this hour, if you've got thoughts to share on the subject, we do want to hear from you.

It's a chance to share how you're feeling about it.

Do you feel sort of numb to gun violence?

Do you have kids who go to school?

Have they ever done after active shooter drills?

Do you feel that's normal, or do you feel that's helpful?

Do they talk about it?

I wonder if your kids talk about concerns about this kind of stuff.

You can e-mail the program connections at dot org, connections@site.org, and we'll take feedback as we go throughout the hour.

Let me just pull back a little and ask Michael to take us back to that day and tell us more about how you were feeling on a day when 17 people are shot in an American school, and it occurs to you that it barely even, you know, breaks up the lunch hour?

Tell me about that.

Oh, exactly.

I mean, I was sitting there in rehearsal, you know, it's Valentine's Day.

I'm in the place that I love to be, doing the thing that I love to do.

And this news comes over.

You know, an actor had it on their phone, and it the reaction that happens is the reaction I think always happens is that there was discussed.

There was why is this keep on happening?

You know, why can't anyone seem to do anything about this.

And then like you described, we went back to rehearsing this play and I was sitting there thinking, why do I feel so sick?

All of a sudden that this is this is what we do.

This is this was a microcosm of what we do as a country, is that these things hit us, and then they move right past us, and then we go on with our day.

And I thought, you know, we as a theater community are not involved on this issue in an ongoing basis.

It's happening in all of our communities.

We have talented people.

The power of story telling.

We have the resources of space and place and connections to the community.

We need to figure out how in solidarity we can talk about this issue and allow our communities to encounter it.

So for me, you know, in that moment, one of the things in the theater that you have to have is that you have to have the material, you have to have a play or something to do.

And there wasn't really, the right setting piece for gun violence in the moment.

Then I saw what came out of parkland, which was this incredible youth movement that really tested my complacency.

And about a year later, you know, there's two mass shootings back to back in 24 hours, Dayton and, El Paso.

And I just thought, look, if I don't do something about this, I am part of the problem.

And then that's when I started calling every theater I could possibly in the country with this idea that the material needs to come from these young people.

They need to come from people who are experiencing this day to day in a way that I never did when I was in high school.

And they they need to be centered in this conversation because they're also the ones centering themselves in the solutions.

So we should be listening to them.

So that was the Genesis of the project for me.

And let me also let me say that I think I am just as complicit as anybody in feeling inured to this, sort of making it feel like it's routine to me, to the point where you just mentioned in 2019, you mentioned El Paso and Dayton.

Is that right, Michael?

Yeah, I just had to Google Dayton.

I didn't remember Dayton.

I don't remember that.

I mean, I'm looking at the details.

I literally don't remember nine people shot and killed, a wounded 17 others near the entrance of the Ned Peppers Bar in the Oregon district of Dayton, Ohio.

I mean, that's 26 people shot nine dead.

I don't even remember it.

And the reason that I wanted to kind of start this, this conversation with Michael's recollections of 2018 and parkland is because it is not like this in other countries.

It is not because shootings like this are not common in most other countries.

And so when they happen, it is it does stop time.

It does stop the moment it stopped.

It's a national conversation here.

I didn't even remember, this six years ago.

Dayton and I grew up in Ohio.

So, I mean, I'm probably as much a part of the problem as anybody.

So, we're going to talk this hour about what's coming up next week.

I want Larry to tell you a little bit about if you want to come see some of these performances, enough plays to end gun violence.

It is one week from tonight, right?

One week from tonight at asberry.

7:00.

There's no admission.

We'll probably pass the plate at the end and donate whatever people want.

Back to, Michael's project.

But, yeah, we've got a group of people, Asbury Community Theater as a group that we created inside of Asbury.

People in theater group.

So did you do.

But we also said we wanted to do something.

We wanted to make a statement somehow and do some things to support the way Asbury does things right with the Community Outreach Center and things like that.

And this is our way to do that.

This is our way to get back.

It is one week from tonight, October 6th, plays to UN gun violence.

It's happening in the sanctuary at 7 p.m.. Again, no admission charge, no admission.

No.

So I know it's not an easy subject.

I know it's heavy, but, I have no doubt it will be powerful and connections.

Audience.

They would love to see you there.

I'm sure the people involved with the creation of this would love to feel heard.

It's, It's important.

Tom texts to say Tom, text the show to say we have normalized insanity.

That's how Tom is feeling right after we have normalized insanity.

Pretty good way to describe it.

Michael.

Cody, what do you think?

Yeah, I think for some reason, we've decided that this is the story that we're going to tell about ourselves and our country.

And I think what we have done with this project and getting folks around the country to present these plays written by young people who are right in the thick of it, is the challenge that would be like, no, there's a different story.

We could be telling.

This story of a preordained.

It is not a given, but we are choosing to let it happen.

And there's really no other way at this point to, to describe it.

We are choosing to let this happen.

And like to your point, you know, these things happen in other countries if they happen in other countries, there is a there's a strong response and immediate response.

And you could say, you know, there have been people who say that this is not a gun issue at the it's a mental health crisis as well.

Other countries have mental health crisis.

You know, we're not unique in that standpoint.

The uniqueness on our part and what's a uniquely American problem is that, that access to guns in the face of maybe a mental health crisis leads to mass casualties.

So that is that is the story that we are stuck in.

And hopefully these stories by young people can, break us free.

Yeah.

And in other countries, when this happens, there's often a policy response that happens as well.

Which is also to say that this country does make a choice when these things happen, which is a policy response of not doing something, which is a choice.

And I know in the last several weeks since the murder of Charlie Kirk, a lot of people have shared that clip of Charlie Kirk himself saying, but he thought it was worth the price of the second Amendment, that we would lose some Americans and shootings every year.

And I, I am not comfortable drawing the conclusion that some are making, which is that, well, see then then he's fine with his own death.

I think that is a cold and dark reading of it, and I'm not comfortable with that.

And I still think we ought to mourn.

I don't care where your politics are.

I think we ought to mourn every murder.

I think we should be mourning every murder and accepting none of it.

But I do think at least what Charlie Kirk is saying in good faith, that was his argument.

In good faith was this is the price that you pay for freedom, is that it's not going to be perfect and that there will be some pain.

He wasn't predicting his own death, of course, but it's the same kind of thing where you say, well, I don't think there should be seatbelt laws, and therefore some people will be lost with seatbelts when you make these choices.

It is a trade off.

This country has decided that the proliferation of guns is worth the trade off.

That is, there's no other way for me to draw that conclusion.

Is there another way for you to draw it?

Michael no, I can't, I, I mean, your point about seatbelts is spot on or like, you know, I want to be able to drive intoxicated or, I want to I want to be able to smoke a cigaret in any public place.

No, that's the harm to public health.

Like, how is this different?

So, I mean, I know it's, enshrined in our constitution.

But, you know, the way it's they also couldn't have predicted where we would be almost, you know, 200 years later, and we should be, we should be thinking about where are we putting our priorities when, like you pointed out, there's a mass shooting just yesterday.

And the one previously at, Annunciation in, Minnesota is no longer even being talked about.

You know, it's like it's it's rinse, wash and repeat.

And when it becomes that, then we are so we are so numb to it that we need to, I don't know, we need to wake up a little bit as a country and think about how far are we going to let it get before we feel like, oh, now maybe we should do something about it.

Michael and some of the coverage of of your work with this series of enough plays to end gun violence, over the years and across the country, it is clear to me that the numbness breaks when the gun violence touches you or your family.

And so that's what I see in a lot of these kids and young adults and teenagers who are talking about watching a brother get murdered or a mother who, you know, stares at the street where her she watched her son die.

I mean, these are very, very hard things to hear, but that those folks are not numb.

They they can't be numb because they've literally lost someone close to them.

What have you experienced throughout this series?

You know, do you want to describe a little bit about some of the impact that you have felt just in kind of working with people and seeing the creations in this series?

Sure.

100%.

I mean, you know, I, I created this because I just was frustrated, really, with myself.

I was like, why am I not be part of the solution?

And what I have come to learn through this project?

I have met so many people, amazing people who are and so many people who are survivors.

They've lost someone or they've, been, a victim of gun violence themselves directly.

And it was like, what a shame it is that we put the onus, on the folks who have lost a loved one or have been traumatized to fix the problem.

So, you know, one on one hand, what I see these players doing, I'll give you an example.

There's this wonderful, collaborator of ours named Maria Perez in South Bend, Indiana.

She lost two sons to gun violence.

So she had lost a son.

She had started her activism work, and then she had lost another son.

that is, disgusting.

And she, she was at a point where she didn't know how, you know, how she could keep going with her activism work.

And then she encountered this project.

And this, for her, has been like a lifeline because it allows her to connect with her community.

She's from these great connections with the theater that she's now on, the staff on, and this is become, you know, being able to bring these stories to our community and then engage the survivors and young people in our community to do these plays.

It's a different kind of activism that fills your cup back up.

And then on the other side of things, the the other half of the population that has not been directly impacted by this issue yet, these plays bring it closer to home, like.

Right.

It's not a headline that you can keep an arm's length.

It's not a statistic that has no emotional punch, even though they're terrible.

This is like I'm an aunt or uncle or parent or teacher sitting in an audience watching my young person perform in a play about this issue.

You know, that's what great theater does, is it brings you close to these issues and these people and these other stories so that you can have an empathetic response.

And what I have found is that people experiences, plays, and maybe they think about it a lot, right?

Like maybe in a way, we're preaching to the choir in the sense that we're not getting at someone completely on the other side of this issue, self-selecting to come to this event and then changing their mind.

But we get a lot of people who come in who care deeply about this issue, but have not been moved to act yet.

And they watch these plays and they are primed.

They are ready to say, okay, what what is it that I can do?

Because the truth of it is that if all of us could do one tenth of 1% of what survivors do on this issue, there would be some real change real quick.

All right.

Well, let me turn to Larry for a little bit more about how this came together in Rochester, because this has been how many cities have how many different locations have you done with this?

Michael?

To date, over the last three readings, we've, about 140, and this year we have, north of 70.

So when did you first hear about this, Larry?

So I heard about about three years ago.

I think I got one of your Facebook, posts.

I think Michael, and, it was at a time when I was, I was teaching at Monroe Community College, and I was teaching a class in, college preparedness.

And I had a group that I had on Saturday morning.

And I walked in one day and I said, you know, I heard a lot of stories in this group.

On Saturday morning, I had a very special group.

Some of them are coming from the jail, some of them are coming from around town.

And they, I walked in and I said there was the last two headlines in the newspaper for the Monroe Doctrine, which is a paper over at Monroe, was about opioids.

And I walked into this group and I said, today's discussion is going to be, why?

Why is the opioid problem right now?

Why is this a problem?

And after a couple of hours worth of conversation, I heard a lot about this.

I heard about the fear that they had about walking out in the streets every day and hearing the gunshots and everything else.

But, but it came down to it.

They finally said, I really we have no hope.

We have no hope as a group.

This group of people that I was teaching and I said, how do, how do you how do you solve that?

I mean, how can we sitting here in a classroom, talk about that as a lesson?

And it just so happened that it was about the same time that enough came round.

I was like, well, here's something we can do, and here's something that we can do that to a population that that may live in a hopeless fear every single day.

So I got in touch with Michael at that time and I said, you know, we'd like to do this.

We'd like to do this in Rochester.

How do we do that?

And he set us up, and unfortunately, we couldn't do it that year.

And then last year was a different problem.

But, this year we're finally getting to do it.

And this is an interesting, to hear it from the students in the classroom that I did, and then to hear it from the playwrights.

Now, on their lines.

This this is intense.

This is something that is very, very intense.

And, I've had a couple of, my cast members that came back to me after they read the play and said, I don't think I could do this.

This is a this is serious.

Too heavy, too heavy.

And the stuff that these kids wrote the high school kids that wrote this stuff, they wrote, great, great.

You wouldn't know is a high school kid.

You wouldn't think of it.

This is written by high school kid.

But these people have lived it and they're talking about their lives.

And that's, you know, for theater, that's for the best.

Theater comes from real life situations that people are recreating.

That's our job.

But, you know, to hear, to feel that group of people that have no hope and are afraid to go out on the streets every day because of the gunshots and the violence that goes on out there.

This this is the exactly what we want is the message you want to get across.

Are you worried that this community is going to find the topic too heavy as well, and that people won't turn out because it's going to be hard for them to sit and listen to these stories presented on essentially on stage.

The reality is they're not to our place.

They're ten minute place.

Each one of these shows is ten minutes apiece, and they get their message across very quickly, and then they get a breather.

So I don't think so.

But they I mean, there's there's no question these things are intense.

I mean, John, who's here with us now actually plays the character death in the place.

Oh, and it's, he talks about almost how how death has become not just another death, really.

I mean, it's it's serious stuff.

We become numb.

Yeah.

Numb to dying in our community.

Yeah, yeah.

And so the for the very first performance is on what subject?

Very.

I think was play the first play.

The first play is just another, just another school shooting.

Just another school shooting.

So what we talked about right off the top here, if, if you saw the news from Michigan over the weekend and just kind of went, oh, you know, yeah, I mean I here's another wild thing.

There is a part of me I'm going to I'm just going to admit this.

There was a part of me that saw mass shooting at a Michigan church, and then I saw four people dead.

And I kind of was like, well, it's only for thank goodness because you're used to bigger.

I mean, it's what is going on with us, right?

So, and so give me a little sense of the theme there for this.

So first for the first play.

Yeah, it's it's just that, I mean, just another school shooting.

It's about how people have become numb.

It's about people reaction to this and and you know, it's it's it's hard it's hard to make like when you could.

You're close to the playwright.

Why don't you talk a little bit about what the.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I mean, the interesting thing about this play in particular is that the playwright, Mathias Finley, is a, survivor of a school shooting.

He survived the Abundant life, school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin.

That was December 2024.

Which, incidentally, is like a mile away from my sister's house.

And yeah, you know, his he wrote into this play just the way that people come out of the woodwork on both sides of the aisle, through the press, through the community, just to co-opt this event and use it as a vehicle to continue spread even their particular message.

And point of view, and just the exploitation that he felt, in the moments after the, the shooting and then the way again that these things happen like a week later, there was a shooting in Tennessee and they moved on, you know, they they, you know, packed up their tents and just went on to the next city.

And that's the so he wrote about this sort of right on the heels of that experience.

And it's it's a, biting condemnation of, the way we respond, how many total performances?

Larry?

There's just one performance.

No, I mean, so they're ten minutes long.

Oh, they're six shows.

Six shows.

Yeah.

Okay.

Six shows.

It's next Monday night, October 6th, starts at 7 p.m.

in the Sanctuary at Asbury.

First, it's Asbury Community Theater, bringing you enough place to end gun violence and there is no cover charge.

Powerful and important stuff.

We're going to talk to the performers in just a minute about their perspective doing this kind of work.

Joyce in Rochester has a question about this.

Hey, Joyce, go ahead.

All right.

What is stupendous opportunity.

But I'm wondering if there's any way people who are very eager to see this, can do so if they're unable to make it that night.

I just want to add, I'm a prison volunteer, and this is crucial.

This is important information, Joyce.

Thank you.

It's a great question.

Larry.

Michael, Michael, for people who can't get to these kind of performances, can they access any of the work?

Absolutely.

So we are making a point to, have a couple of recordings of the readings from, various partners across the country.

So, the easy way is just to go to our website, enough players.com and get in contact with us, and we would be happy to show those.

Okay.

So Joyce, hopefully that will work for you.

And it's a good question.

I'm sure a lot of people have it.

If you can't go next Monday night.

Although again, they'd love to fill it up next Monday night.

We would they would love to see you there.

John and Judy Messenger are here and they're performing.

I did not know that.

I mean, John, you're playing death in one of the shows.

Yes.

I mean, that is as dark as it, I guess, as it can be here.

Can I, you know, you're kind of.

You're turning your head.

What?

No.

Well, it's it's a little bit of a nothing's entirely humorous in this, production, but, Judy plays a TV reporter called Joan, and she's interviewing death, who has just published a book called Nobody Cares About Death.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

So there are some some dark humor there.

Yeah.

Judy, it it it is kind of.

Yes.

Joan, of course, is based on, you know, one of the, prime reporters who just nothing fazes her at all.

And so death is just not answering her questions the way she wants him to answer them.

And one of the parts of the story talks about paperwork.

Once someone dies, there's paperwork.

And I never thought about death that way.

And, death is kind of annoyed because now the paperwork is difficult to figure out because it's people.

Some of the people who died don't know how to write their name, or they use crayon.

Yes.

Yeah.

So it's, it does finally get to Joan, but it takes a long time.

And she also is like, well, but I've been to the vigils, I've been to the funerals.

I, you know, I do what I'm supposed to do.

But there is no final answer in her mind.

Death is the one who finally says it's the guns.

So, John, have you ever played a role like that?

No, not exactly like this.

No.

Although harking back to the Charlie Kirk quote you mentioned.

Yeah, it's my understanding that the Second Amendment, like everything else, like the first has, has limits.

You can't go out and buy a bazooka or in any tank gun.

And I'm old enough to remember when assault weapons were banned legally, constitutionally by Congress.

But yeah.

Yes.

For sure.

I mean, there are things we can do.

Right?

And so that's one of the reasons why I always ask Second Amendment enthusiasts, are you okay with me holding the rocket launcher?

And they routinely say, well, of course not.

And then the answer to that is that, okay, then we're just drawn lines here.

You're for lines.

You are for regulation.

It's a question of where the line for the regulation is for you.

So if it's not a rocket launcher, where is it?

And if for John Messenger it's assault rifles or if for Judy it's somewhere else.

That doesn't mean that we're all living on a different planet if you don't favor that.

But you but we all agree on the rocket launcher thing, so, I, I think that there's actually more common ground there than people realize.

But maybe that's just me being too optimistic.

And, I mean, I, I'm hearing the description of this play when John is playing Death and Duties, playing a reporter and, and I think it made me think of, you know, the old onion headline.

No way to prevent this, says the only nation where this regularly happens.

I mean, that is that is the onion headline every mass shooting.

And that is a great bit of social commentary.

The reason we laugh is because of how absurd it is, but it's it's actually a piece of social commentary.

So you might actually is it possible the other laughs and in this short ten minutes here on death, we'll find out.

Yeah, yeah.

At least dark humor as you put it.

Yeah, yeah.

How do you feel about it, Michael Cody?

Well, I, for any young person to find a way to write satire into these plays is just, like a tremendous achievement.

But, you know, it's it's a it's a good balance to the other, other plays that have a lot more serious or tragic times to them, you know, and, and the way I've sort of seen the arc because this is our fourth year doing this and, to, to, the point of your caller, you know, these plays then become available.

They, they get published, they can be done, they can be read.

And, you know, the first year we did this was 2020 and nobody was in school.

You know, everybody was home, everyone was in under quarantine and all those plays are about the anxiety like, that it's going to happen at some point.

Then our second year was all about this sense of mourning.

You know, a lot of plays about mothers and fathers, mostly mothers, mourning the death of their young kids.

And then last year was just like, just like adults.

The adults are screwing this up.

They have not done enough to protect us.

And this year, it almost like all the plays, have a sense of feeling trapped.

All the plays, in one way or another, are about characters feeling trapped in these circumstances, desperately, desperately trying to get out.

So, you know, I hope that message gets through.

And also that, again, you know, it is a choice not to do anything like the the refusal to even try policies is a very weird choice to me.

Because obviously not doing anything and just sort of letting things play out again and again doesn't change the narrative at all, doesn't change the story we're in.

Well, Larry Dugan, artistic director of Asbury Community Theater, said earlier this hour.

And he he has really been moved at the depth of the writing and the quality of this.

Judy, you agree with that?

I do.

How has it hit you being a performer in some of this?

Well, another of the plays that I'm in, it's called Under Wraps.

And in that case, I again, I play a mother role.

But it's a young woman who is, it's a domestic abuse situation, and the mother is trying to decide whether or not this is something she needs to interfere with.

She she loves her daughter.

She's excited that she has found a relationship that she seems to like, and and it's going well, but she's staying out of it until it's too late.

John, how have these affected you?

Got me thinking about what we can do.

The the the quote or the line.

It's better to light one candle than curse.

The darkness comes to mind, and I tend to be a positive, upbeat, glass half full person.

Therefore.

But, boy, is this a this is a heavy issue.

But that means we need to not give up and then keep moving forward.

One of the other plays, by the way, that I'm into, you talked about, I guess Michael mentioned last year's theme about adults being part of the problem.

And there's a, you know, I play a little, a commentator and anchor a few adult roles, basically.

And the, the common thread there is, from the kids perspective, they're all sort of clueless and just mouthing platitudes and not really, caring or helping too much or enough.

And you can understand that sentiment.

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

Same.

Judy.

Yeah, I agree.

Listen, I know this is heavy stuff, but I've got some really interesting emails to read from listeners already after we take this only break.

If you want to share more listeners, you can do that@connections.org.

If you're watching on the news on YouTube, you can join the chat there.

You can call us 844295 talk.

It's toll free.

84429582552636.

Call from Rochester 2639994.

We're being joined this hour by Michael Cody who is a producer, director and the creator of Enough Plays to End Gun Violence.

Larry Dugan, the artistic director of Asbury Community Theater, is where that's where enough is coming.

Coming to Rochester one week from tonight, October 6th, 7 p.m., in the Sanctuary at Asbury.

And they would love to see you there.

There's no cover charge, six different performances, and there about ten minutes long each.

So they move even though it's heavy.

These performances move and then they bring you a different one.

So, about an hour's worth, six different performances.

And two of the performers are with us this hour, Judy and John Messenger with us in studio.

We'll come right back to your emails next.

Coming up in our second hour, a conversation with one of the great American journalists, David Grann, whose work has been in The New Yorker and The New York Times and The Atlantic.

And it has become books, books like killers of the Flower Moon, which became a Martin Scorsese film, and The Wager, which is going to become another Scorsese film.

David Grand talks about his remarkably detailed and patient craft and why journalism still matters so much.

That's next hour.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from City Magazine, covering arts and culture in Rochester and the Finger Lakes since 1971.

The online city calendar covers everything from live theater to local music.

More at Rock city MAGA.

Com this is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson, so let's work through some of the emails here.

We've got a lot, Brian in Fairport says.

I think this is a very important conversation that you all are having.

I wonder, though, if we focus too much on mass shootings and gun murder when it's statistically shown that gun suicide is as much or more prevalent issue.

We see mass shootings on the news and they get many shows like this focusing on them, but suicide gets far less attention despite being a major problem.

Does your panel have any thoughts on this?

Brian, that is a great email and I'm going to start, just as you know, as the journalist on the program here.

Let me just say this.

First of all, you are correct that suicide is a major issue in gun death.

Very much includes suicide.

In my mind, when we talk about, gun deaths, I know we routinely hear from people who say, well, you can't call it preventable gun death because someone may complete suicide in another means, and they might.

That's true.

They are much more likely to be successful with a gun, just as like they are much more likely to be successful when they want to target somebody for violence with a gun.

And it is a huge problem.

It is a huge problem everywhere.

The highest rate of gun death in this country is in the contiguous American South, where there are fewer gun regulations, and that includes access to guns for suicide.

So, Brian, I just want to say I care very deeply.

I'm sure all of our guests do too.

Michael Cody, you want to respond to Brian there?

Yeah, 100%.

Brian's absolutely right.

And I think something that it's just important to know about this, what we do with this program is, you know, I did come into this originally mostly thinking about mass shootings and school shootings.

And because, again, that's what's, sensationalized on our news all the time.

However, having done this work, having met people who work in gun violence prevention, I was quickly corrected.

And what we do to ensure that the full breadth of the story about gun violence is told is that we really make sure that when we select the six plays every year, we aren't just picking six plays that are about mass shootings or school shootings.

So we have, you know, we definitely have that story in these six plays, but we have a story that's about, you know, where gun violence intersects with what it means to be black in America.

We have, story that's about domestic violence.

There is, a narrative about, gun suicide by a veteran and one of the plays this year.

So we are really trying to, with these six plays, show, kaleidoscope view of what this issue is and all the ways in which it intersects with other issues that we're dealing with.

As a country.

In studio here, Larry, anything you want to say to Brian and Fairport?

Yeah, I think, it's good to know that.

Yeah, I think maybe two of the six plays that we're doing are about school shootings.

I think the rest of them are not about school shootings, about other things that happen.

And there's one about suicide.

And in the past, there's been every possible topic that I could think of, in plays that they've produced or brought out.

These kids have really, covered the gamut, really.

And through use of guns and violent type things.

But I think, you know, and Michael can talk about this, too.

The, the number of kids that respond when they put the call out for, I mean, these six, we they pick six.

It wasn't like they got six people and they took those six programs.

They took over 300.

Michael.

Right.

Yeah.

At this point, I think we, you know, this year we had 127, but in total we've had more than 700 plays submitted to the object.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

And really well-written.

I mean, these these are they're not like a kid wrote a thing with a crayon.

This is a serious play, right.

And some of them have some experience with right play writing as well.

So, yeah, they cover the gamut.

They cover the gamut.

All Judy and John.

Anything you want to say to Brian and Fairport?

Well, both of us are also involved with Nami.

The National Alliance on Mental Illness, and there's a big suicide prevention element to that whole field.

And there are a lot of other organizations also working in it.

But, yeah, Judy, we have a son who's a veteran, and, we've another son who had took his own life.

So we, we sort of know where this is going.

Yeah.

I'm sorry for your loss.

And I just want to say to Brian.

Brian.

You're right.

I mean, violence is violence, and gun violence can touch people in a lot of different ways.

And I appreciate you keeping us keeping our minds on them.

Sean writes to say I own a rifle.

I had to take a hunter safety class before I could get a hunting license, but I don't need any education to buy a firearm requiring safety education for a purchase would inherently add a cooling off delay.

This is something that the NRA should be able to get behind.

They were a safety organization before becoming a lobbying group that rejects regulation.

Sean says they reject any commonsense regulation.

That was that email actually says, I won't let you, Sean, but Sean saying, here's something that makes sense.

If you got to take a hunter safety class for getting a hunting license, you should have to take something before you can go purchase a firearm.

How's that Michael Cody?

Is that is that somewhere you think there can be common ground?

I am, I can disagree with any of that.

You know, in order for me to drive a car, I need to get a license.

And I think that is one of many common sense things that I think there are many people in this country that I would agree with.

I don't I don't know why that is controversial.

I don't understand that.

But, you know, and so something I just, I want to point out, too, is that when we put out this call for young people, to, to write plays, really, I have a point of view on what solutions might be.

And clearly I have, a point of view of maybe what we should be doing.

But we don't myself, as leading this organization and this project, we don't lead with any of that.

We just say to these young people, this is a, competition.

This is writing, opportunity for you to confront gun violence.

That's literally what we say.

Confront gun violence through write in a ten minute play.

And, you, you know, the only maybe parameter we give is that if you can write a play without depicting the actual incident of violence.

So we're not just, putting these dramatic instances on stage.

That's great.

And that's that's what we open it up to young people across the country.

Right?

So we're, you know, whatever solutions that I think makes sense or we should be doing is not how we lead as an organization.

We're looking to these young people to maybe play us the way to some solutions and give us their point of views.

Yeah.

And I want to say, you know, Michael says this is something that confuses him, the opposition.

So I will say this, I, I do understand that even if I don't use guns for sport, I know and love people who do, and I respect that.

Okay?

I mean, we doesn't have to be my interest.

If it's yours, I get it.

I and I most or hopefully all the people I know who do are very, very in tune with safety care, very much about that, are very serious about that.

What I don't understand is the opposition to this cooling off period, that you ought to be able to just make an instant purchase and I mean, even The Simpsons in the 90s parodied this by playing the Waiting is the Hardest Part by Tom petty.

Homer wants to go buy a gun, and he goes into a shop and says, but I'm angry now.

They said, you got to wait two days.

He says, I'm angry now.

I mean, they're making a statement, I get it, but what is the argument against it?

So let's if you're on that on the other side of that, email me, let me know what you think.

Connection to stalker.

You'd also talk that some of you use.

That's fine.

I want to know what you think.

Why would you oppose that cooling off period?

It's a to me, I'm confused.

Anybody in studio opposed to a cooling off period?

Yeah, I think that's okay.

Dell says this.

I appreciate this discussion.

Every school year we go through the same fear.

I hate that putting my children on the bus every morning is so terrifying.

Every single time this happens, we mourn, we debate, and then ultimately we do nothing.

And all I feel is anger.

I sometimes fear that if 20 plus years of children losing their lives senselessly hasn't changed anything, but absolutely nothing will.

I sincerely hope I am wrong for all of our children sakes, Dell, the only thing I would tell you is this.

I do think that, some context and sometimes the math matters.

And this sounds so cold because I just, I don't want to, trivialize any death.

I mean, if there's any comfort here, it's a there's still a very low likelihood that your child will ever be at a school where there's a shooting.

The fact that it's not zero is wild to me.

And the fact that it's not zero is wild to you, Dell, I get it.

So I'm not trying to add any kind of cold comfort in a country where people have literally lost children.

And we've already we've seen it this month.

We'll probably see it next month.

That's how I I'm not even being cynical.

I'm being realistic.

But let me ask the guest this.

He's saying he's at the point where he thinks nothing will change that if Sandy hook nothing if parkland, nothing.

I mean, he's at that point where he thinks nothing's going to change.

Michael, are you there?

No, I'm not there.

I mean, you can't be.

I mean, like, the it's just I mean, I don't think hope is cheap, and I don't think hope is useless.

So, what I've noticed, you know, the change is not sweeping and immediate in the way that I think we all want it to be.

But, you know, in the in the previous administration, the Office of Gun Violence Prevention was doing fantastic work.

I don't have all the stats in front of me, but a quick look up, you know, there's been a pretty significant reduction in gun deaths and the work that we're doing in communities with community violence intervention groups.

I mean, all that work matters.

I mean, it's not getting to the root.

It feels like a lot of the times are treating, things.

Symptom versus treating, the, the root of this, which is I think there's probably too many guns out there and people can get them to easily when they, are in no condition to be getting them.

But, you know, I don't think you can be I don't think you can be hopeless.

And one, you know, like one of the things that gives me hope is a these young people writing these plays, exercising the First Amendment and getting their point of views out there and getting communities across the country to on a day that isn't a remembrance of a terrible tragedy, a day we've selected to have this conversation we're gathering, in our communities across the country to talk about how does this issue impact us, but also be, you know, one of the families that I've been able to interact with, on this issue is Manuel and Patricia Oliver.

So Manuel and Patricia Oliver lost their son Joaquin.

The, 2018, Marjory Stoneman Douglas shooting in parkland, Florida, same day that I sort of, got sent on this path.

And I, you know, I've been working with and the last couple of years because, Manny has a one man show where he talks about losing his son and and what came next.

And they are tireless, Lee working to make sure that nobody shares their story.

And seeing that gives me hope.

I mean, I know I, you know, everyone grieves differently and not everyone should be, expected to pick up the torch of activism after they lose someone.

But like the folks like that and Lauria and these amazing people who are doing the selfless work that gives me hope.

Do I wish it happened more quickly?

Do I wish it happened ten years ago so that all of them would still have their kids here?

Absolutely.

But, I think you I think you have to have hope.

At the core of this, let me ask the messengers if you have hope on on these issues.

Yeah, I do, yes, I think we can we can do more and we should do more.

Well, one thing I remember is the collapse of the Soviet Union back in the late 80s.

And I remember thinking at the time, empires and governments seem so huge and powerful, and what's any individual compared to that?

But we're all just individuals.

And it's that happened so quickly, relatively speaking.

And suddenly it just as just as easy as one person changing their mind or their opinion on something.

We could all do that together, or enough of us, the critical mass of us, and that could make a huge difference.

That's an interesting reference, John.

And last week on this program, Randy Stone was here, the director of the Scholarly Center for Polish and Central European Studies here in Rochester, and he was in Germany in 1989.

And he said even then, months away, he did not see it coming, not at the rate of it goes slow, slow, slow, and then all at once.

And he said he would not have told you in in 1989, when he was in Europe, that he was on the eve of it.

And it's just a reminder that the change we think is impossible for you might feel intractable for a long time before it actually happens.

So could happen with gun violence, you know?

I mean, maybe so maybe I'm how do you feel?

Hope so.

I mean, yeah, I mean, those students that I talked to that had no hope, which is really, because they weren't doing anything.

Right.

This this is something to do.

This is an action, positive action in the right direction.

And I think that's what's going to take is it's not in the simple things, things that we can do as theater people.

Right?

This is the, things that we can do within our context.

And that's what I was challenged with was what can I do as a person, you know, how can I do as a theater person in this particular case?

And then this came along.

It was perfect timing.

An email from Dan.

And I know this.

Dan, it's really lovely to hear from this, Dan, that all Dan's are good.

This is a really good Dan.

Dan says just to emphasize how frequent this tragedy has become.

Yesterday all the focus was on the Michigan mass murder.

There was another one and this was very little bit mentioned.

And then all of a sudden four people killed there, he says.

We move right on.

He says that's that's what's going on in North Carolina.

Dan thank you.

I mean, it's a that's right.

I mean, Michigan is today.

Then the next one pulls your attention away.

And the people in Michigan will feel forgotten.

And there are four families grieving today.

And that that will be another community tomorrow.

That's just where where it is.

Zach wanted to know if there have been any plays on the subject of, active shooter drills.

So, Michael Cody, over the years, with enough place to end gun violence, have active shooter drills come up at all?

Yes.

In fact, we have a really, I want to, horrifying the word that comes to mind, but, disturbing play that came out in 2022 called Rehearsal by Willard O'Leary.

And rehearsal is really, for me, it's sort of like this twisted version of where active shooter drills are going.

If we continue to lean on them as a solution and it's a it's about, a class of students and their teacher that actually lead themselves through a rehearsal of a school shooting, where there are victims and people, someone is a shooter.

And it's all told in sort of a documentary film style where everyone's speaking to the audience.

And it's, it just it feels absurd and it feels scary.

And it also feels like this actually could be potentially happening somewhere in our country.

And it's really just about, you know, we are not so many steps away from normalizing something like that.

That's that play has actually been turned into a short film and is currently, going through until film festivals right now.

And we're looking to get a wider release of that one.

But it is.

Yeah.

So we've had those we've certainly had, you know, we've had plays that are from the point of view of teachers that are, that are feeling anxiety and, not sure how to respond in these situations.

We have.

Yeah.

It's sort of what is, so disheartening for me is how ubiquitous.

Yeah, this is for young people, in a way that never was when I was in high school.

Amen.

And I think I'm going to speak way out of school.

And, listeners, please check this out before you trust me saying this.

I think the data says these things don't really work.

Anyway.

I think the data to the extent that we have it, indicates that active shooter drills are not really effective at saving lives.

And I my instinct as a parent is I don't want my sons doing them.

I don't want you to traumatize my son by teaching them to jump in a closet when someone walks in with an assault rifle.

I just don't want you to do that.

I. I would like us to not.

I don't I don't know.

Well, Judy, I remember hiding under our desks for air raid drills.

Right.

Early 60s.

Right.

Like that was going to do a lot of good.

I that's another thing that confused me.

That's what we were doing with nuclear under the desk.

I looked the same after, but go ahead.

Yeah.

Because, you know, I actually heard, you know, David Hogg, one of the founders of March for Our Lives, you know, was asked this question on on Bill Marrs program as like, you know, he was like, look, you know, we went through all these, you know, safety things under our desk, and, like, I turned out fine.

And, and, David Hogg's point of view is like.

Yes, but for us, the bomb drops every other week like it's.

You never had the nuke.

Never dropped on any town USA.

Yeah.

But every other week, the result of these active shooter drills, the actual shootings happened.

Yeah.

So that's the that's the key difference is like, maybe that was weird and traumatizing and scary in the moment, but you never had to go through any sort of fallout where there's communities going through fallout all the time.

If I didn't get to all your emails listeners, I'm sorry.

We could have done this for two hours.

I'm going to close with Rick, Rick says.

I think we need to remind ourselves, Evan, that hope is essential, but it takes time.

We need to remember that hope motivated women in 1848 to begin the process of seeking the vote.

Abolition has spent decades working to end slavery, and after that, decades more to end Jim Crow.

We need to be committed to change over the long haul.

There's no magic solution for gun violence, and we need to work at it continuously.

That is from Rick.

Powerful words from Rick.

Michael, Cody, congratulations on the work here.

I mean, it's a strange thing to congratulate you for, but it's important work.

And, I know Rochester will benefit from seeing enough plays to end gun violence next Monday night.

One week from the night, 7 p.m.

at the Sanctuary at Asbury.

First, it is free to the public.

They would love to see you there, Michael.

Let's talk again in the future.

Thank you for being with us.

Thank you so much.

Michael Cody, creator of Enough Place to End and Gun Violence.

Larry Dugan, the artistic director of Asbury Community Theater who helped bring it here.

Good luck next Monday.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Evan, and thanks to John and Judy Messenger performers.

We'll see you next Monday.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

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