ACROSS EUROPE, THE FAR RIGHT IS BREAKING INTO THE POLITICAL MAINSTREAM.

EXTREMIST PARTIES ARE GAINING SUPPORT AND FORMING COALITIONS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT.

CATHERINE -- IS DIRECTOR OF POLICY AND STRATEGIC OUTREACH AT OPEN SOCIETY FOUNDATIONS, FOCUSING ON EUROPE AND CENTRAL ASIA.

SHE JOINS US TO DISCUSS THIS MOMENT IN EUROPEAN POLITICS.

THIS INTERVIEW IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE, OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND EXTREMISM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, I GUESS FOR OUR AMERICAN AUDIENCE AND OUR OVERSEAS AUDIENCE, END OF SET THE LANDSCAPE FOR US A LITTLE BIT.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE POLITICAL RIGHT OR THE FAR RIGHT, HOW IS IT GAINING GROUND IN EUROPE?

>> I THINK IN EUROPE TO SOME EXTENT, IT IS BEEN GAINING GROUND PROBABLY FROM THE EARLY 1980S IN VARIOUS PLACES.

FIRST IN FRANCE AND THEN IN ITALY AND THEN GRADUALLY MORE AND MORE THE SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES.

NOW , WE'VE AND HAVE GERMANY, OF COURSE THERE ARE TALES OF POLAND AND HUNGARY.

AND WHAT THEY SEE IS THAT IN A VERY BASIC WAY, THE WAY THEY ARE GAINING GROUND IS THAT THEY ARE EITHER IN SOME PLACES, THE MOST IMPORTANT OPPOSITION PARTY OR, THEY ARE IN COALITION GOVERNMENT OR, THEY ARE BASICALLY YOU KNOW GETTING READY FOR GOVERNMENT.

SO, THIS IS A VERY BASIC MEASURE.

THEY ARE WINNING ELECTIONS.

WHAT I WOULD SAY, THE OTHER MEASURE IS THAT POSSIBLY, THEY HAVE BECOME THE PARTIES THAT HAVE SET THE AGENDA WHETHER IT IS ON MIGRATION, INCREASINGLY ON THE ENVIRONMENT.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ACTUALLY IN GOVERNMENT, THEY ARE MANAGING TO SET THE AGENDA FOR THE WHOLE OF THE POLITICAL SCENE AND LANDSCAPE.

THE COMBINATION OF THE TWO MEANS THAT WE ARE NOW AND ACTUALLY IN WHAT I THINK IS QUITE A DANGEROUS SITUATION IN YOUR.

>> LET'S GO MAYBE COUNTRY BY COUNTRY.

LET'S START WITH ITALY.

RIGHT NOW, A DOMINANT FAR RIGHT PARTY IN CONTROL.

HOW DID WE GET THERE?

>> WE GOT THERE, ITALY IS A REALLY INTERESTING CASE.

WE GET THERE IN ITALY THROUGH A NUMBER OF WAYS.

THERE HAS BEEN A LONG, KIND OF SLOW RISE OF ALL SORTS OF CHALLENGER PARTIES.

WE HAVE THE RADICAL LEFT AND THEN THE RISE OF THE RADICAL RIGHT AND THEN THE RADICAL RIGHT AND THE RADICAL LEFT IN COALITION TOGETHER.

AND THEN, A KIND OF TECHNOCRATIC MORE STABLE GOVERNMENT.

I THINK, WHAT WE SEE IN ITALY IS THIS KIND OF VERY TECHNOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IN ITALY AS IN ELSEWHERE GENERALLY WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE KIND OF PRECURSOR FOR PEOPLE REACTING TO POLICIES WHICH THEY THINK ARE KIND OF TAKEN WITHOUT THE INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE IN MIND.

AND ESSENTIALLY TOO TECHNICAL TOO OPAQUE.

TOO DISCONNECTED FROM WHAT ORDINARY POLITICS IS ABOUT.

THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE IN ITALY.

WE HAD A COALITION WHICH IS REALLY INTERESTING.

IT HAS GOT A DOMINANT IN A SENSE OF CONSERVATIVE NEOFASCIST PARTY.

AS THE MAIN COALITION PARTNER WITH -- SHE IS DEFINITELY THE MOST IMPORTANT, MOST -- POPULAR PARTY IN ITALY.

SHE DOES NOT QUITE HAVE THE VOTES TO DO IT ON HER OWN SO SHE HAS HAD TO COBBLE TOGETHER THIS COALITION.

YOU HAVE THIS WEIRD LOOKING COALITION OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT PARTICULARLY LIKE EACH OTHER AND -- GOVERN TOGETHER.

>> WHAT ARE THE ISSUES THAT ARE ANIMATING THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IN GERMANY AND AUSTRIA?

COUNTRIES THAT HAVE, FOR SO LONG, DEALT WITH HISTORY AND TO RUN 180 DEGREES FROM IT FOR DECADES.

>> WE TEND TO PUT THEM TOGETHER BUT ACTUALLY THE STORIES ARE QUITE DIFFERENT.

BECAUSE, WHAT IS SHOCKING ABOUT GERMANY IS THE FACT THAT ACTUALLY, GERMANY HAS, IN A SENSE YOU KNOW, DONE A LOT IN EDUCATION TERMS IN ITS CULTURAL LIFE IN IT'S KIND OF COLLECTIVE NARRATIVE TO REALLY COME TO TERMS WITH ITS PAST, JULIE OWN IT AND MOVE BEYOND IT.

THE RISE OF THE ISD, AND A POLITICAL OPTION ON THE FAR RIGHT IS SOMETHING YOU KNOW THAT IS STILL VERY SHOCKING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

IT IS A RELATIVELY RECENT PHENOMENON.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT GERMANY IS THAT GERMANY IS GOING THROUGH A LOT OF TRANSITIONS AT ONCE.

FIRST OF ALL, ANGELA MERKEL WHO HAD BEEN IN POWER FOR A LONG TIME IS NO LONGER THERE SO A TRANSITION AWAY FROM HER.

THEN, IT HAS HAD TO REALLY SORT OF YOU KNOW REVISE ITS ATTITUDE TOWARD ITS ENERGY POLICY, ITS ATTITUDE TOWARD RUSSIA.

WHO THEY TRY TO TREAT AS A PARTNER.

IT IS GOING THROUGH A ROUGH TIME ECONOMICALLY AND OF COURSE, THE -- IS SOMETHING THAT IS BASED MOSTLY IN THE FORMER EAST GERMANY.

WHERE ECONOMIC CONDITIONS IN ANY CASE EVEN ON A GOOD DAY, NOWHERE NEAR AS GOOD AS IN WHAT WE MIGHT STILL CALL WEST GERMANY.

THERE IS AN ECONOMIC BACKLASH THERE.

BUT ALSO, I THINK A SLIGHT BACKLASH KIND OF A NOSTALGIC NATURE KNEE-JERK REACTION.

BECAUSE GERMANY IS FEELING AS THOUGH IT IS LOSING ITS FOOTING A LITTLE BIT.

THERE IS THE NATIONAL NARRATIVE BEING CALLED INTO QUESTION IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

AUSTRIA ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND, AUSTRIA DID NOT DO ALL OF THAT WORK THAT GERMANY DID ON ITS OWN PAST.

IT TRIED TO BYPASS THAT KIND OF COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS AND OWNING OF THE PAST IN ORDER TO DO BETTER.

AND ACTUALLY, THE FAR RIGHT WAS YOU KNOW, THE -- WHICH IS THE FAR RIGHT PARTY.

IT WAS ACTUALLY IN POWER IN AUSTRIA BACK IN 2000.

THAT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT IT ALREADY STARTED BECAME IMPORTANT.

SO, THEY HAVE EBBED AND FLOWED SINCE BUT, THEY HAVE BEEN AN OPTION ON THE ELECTRICAL MAP YOU KNOW FOR ESSENTIALLY THE BETTER PART OF 40 YEARS AT THIS POINT.

>> THERE IS ALSO AN IDEA THAT LISTEN, IF THESE ARE THE LEADERS THAT THE PEOPLE ELECT, THAT IS KIND OF THE BARGAIN WE SIGNED UP FOR WITH DEMOCRACY.

THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE AND PARTIES THAT ARE ABLE TO MAKE THE CASE BETTER.

VARIABLE TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS.

UNDERLINED THAT IS THE NOTION THAT IT IS A FAIR FIGHT, A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> I THINK THAT INCREASINGLY IT HAS NOT NECESSARILY BECOME A FIGHT OR, AND IT IS LESS AND LESS OF A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD BECAUSE, I WOULD ARGUE THAT YOU KNOW, MANY POLITICAL LEADERS WHO ARE NOT PART OF THESE PARTIES, WHETHER ON THE MAINSTREAM LEFT OR MAINSTREAM RIGHTS, THEY WILL HESITATE TO USE YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE TACTICS THAT THESE PARTIES USE.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT MOST OF US, YOU KNOW, HOWEVER WE LEAN, MOST OF US WHO ARE IN THE KIND OF MAINSTREAM POLITICS, WE PROBABLY WOULD NOT, IN A SENSE WOULD NOT HAVE THE HEART AND ACTUALLY WOULD FEEL PRETTY IMMORAL USING THE KIND OF TACTICS THAT THEY USE.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE FEEL BAD ABOUT LYING AND BEING CAUGHT LYING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT A -- YOU LOOK AT AN -- THEY REALLY DO NOT CARE IF THEY ARE CALLED OUT IN A BIG LIE.

THE SORT OF SHRUG AND SAY WELL THAT JUST GOES TO SHOW I AM WILLING TO DO ANYTHING TO ACTUALLY DEFEND THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE.

I AM NOT PENNED IN BY THESE FOUR JOC CONSIDERATIONS.

I AM A MAN OF THE PEOPLE, I DEFEND THE PEOPLE AND IF IT TAKES LYING, I WILL LIE.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE ARE NOT VERY -- ADOPT IN TERMS OF TACTICS.

BUT, THE OTHER THING I WOULD SAY AND YOU HAVE PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT, AN IMPORTANT POINT.

IT IS HARD TO ARGUE THAT THESE PARTIES ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC PARTIES.

IT IS VERY HARD TO SAY THAT SOME OF THESE LEADERS OR, THE WAY THAT THEY GET ELECTED IS ANTIDEMOCRAT, ANTIDEMOCRATIC.

I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY CAREFUL ABOUT SAYING THAT ACTUALLY, THEY ARE NOT ANTIDEMOCRATIC.

THEY ARE JUST -- KIND OF DEMOCRACY THAT WE DO NOT LIKE.

WHICH IS A KIND OF YOU KNOW, AN OPPRESSIVE WILL OF THE MAJORITY TO THE EXCLUSION OF EVERY MINORITY VIEW.

OF COURSE, THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM IN SOCIETIES LIKE OURS.

WHERE IN A SENSE THAT THE SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT WE HAVE IN OUR DEMOCRACIES IS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU WIN SOME YOU LOSE SOME.

YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS ON THE LOSING SIDE, YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS ON THE WINNING SIDE.

BUT BY AND LARGE, EVERYONE HAS A VOICE.

THE KIND OF DEMOCRACY THEY PUT FORWARD IS ONE THAT, YOU KNOW THE FOUNDING FATHERS, THE AMERICAN FOUNDING FATHERS YOU KNOW WARNED US AGAINST WHICH IS, ONE THAT IS SIMPLY AN OPPRESSIVE MAJORITY.

I THINK THAT, AS YOU SAY, THIS MAY BE A DEMOCRATIC EXPRESSION.

THE FINAL POINT, IF I MAY ON THIS IS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE, ONCE THESE PARTIES ARE IN THE GAME, WHETHER THEY ARE YOU KNOW, A CREDIBLE OPPOSITION OR WHETHER THEY ARE PART OF GOVERNMENT OR WHETHER THEY ARE LEADING GOVERNMENT, THEY GET THEIR HANDS ON SOME KEY INSTITUTIONS WHICH, BASICALLY MEANS THAT THE GAME FROM THEN ON IS RICK.

IF YOU LOOK AT YOU KNOW, SOMEONE LIKE -- FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS NO MEDIA FREEDOM.

THERE IS NO, YOU KNOW, JUDICIAL FREEDOM.

AND, THEREFORE IN A SENSE, YOU CAN SHAPE REALITY.

TO YOUR OWN NEEDS.

PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE VOTING FOR SOMETHING BUT, THEY ARE NOT GETTING THE WHOLE STORY BECAUSE YOU CONTROL THE STORY.

AND WE ARE SEEING THIS IN POLAND AND WE ARE SEEING THIS INCREASINGLY IN ITALY AND WE ARE EVEN SEEING IT INCREASINGLY IN FRANCE.

ONCE THEY HAVE POWER, THEY GET THEIR HANDS ON THE LEVERS AND THEN THEY SHAPE THE REALITY THAT PEOPLE WILL SEE.

THE CHOICE IS NOT A REAL CHOICE.

>> AS YOU LAY OUT THESE CHARACTERISTICS, I AM LISTENING AND SAYING, -- OF THE PRESS LEADS TO AN UNFAIR FIGHT GOING FORWARD.

AND OF COURSE, I HAVE TO APPLY THIS TO THE UNITED STATES.

I WONDER, WHAT ARE THE LESSONS THAT ARE KIND OF GOING BACK AND FORTH.

IS THERE ALMOST AN ECOSYSTEM OF SUPPORT BECAUSE, I HAVE NEVER SEEN AS MUCH INTEREST IN HUNGARIAN POLITICS AS I DID OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS IN THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA IN UNITED STATES.

ESPOUSING AND SUPPORTING -- WHO, MAYBE TWO ADMINISTRATIONS AGO WOULD'VE BEEN CONSIDERED AN AUTHORITARIAN DICTATOR BUT, HERE WE ARE.

>> I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS WE SHOULD NOT UNDERESTIMATE IS ACTUALLY, THE LINKS BETWEEN THESE LEADERS AND THE LINKS BETWEEN THESE PARTIES.

WHEN -- STARTS TO ORGANIZE, EVENTS IN EUROPE, INCLUDING IN HUNGARY, IT MEANS THAT YOU KNOW THERE IS MONEY FLOWING BEHIND IT, THAT THE CERTAIN MEDIA OUTLETS ARE LINING UP.

YOU KNOW, BEHIND THIS KIND OF TRANSATLANTIC COOPERATION THAT STRETCHES ACROSS FROM THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE AND, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS SUGGESTS TO ME THAT WHAT MANY OF US THOUGHT FOR A LONG TIME, WHICH IS THAT, BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NATIONALIST PARTIES, THEY WOULD NEVER COOPERATE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

IN FACT, THEY ARE STARTING TO SEE THAT COOPERATION, HAS ITS REWARDS.

THIS COULD WILL HAPPEN YOU KNOW AT THE LEVEL OF EUROPE AS WELL.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE EUROPEAN ELECTIONS ELEMENTARY ELECTIONS WHICH ARE TAKING PLACE IN JUNE 2024.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE WORRY ABOUT IS YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE FAR RIGHT OR RIGHT-WING POPULIST PARTIES REALLY GETTING HUGE SCORES, POTENTIALLY PUSHING BACK ON WHITE A SOPHISTICATED AND EXPENSIVE ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY AGENDA.

AND, AT THAT POINT, THE FEAR IS THAT THEY WILL COOPERATE WITH EACH OTHER MUCH MORE EFFECTIVELY AND, THAT THEY WILL COOPERATE WITH THE MAINSTREAM RIGHT.

THAT'S WHAT WE WILL SEE IS A KIND OF, AN INCREASE IN THE RADICALIZATION OF THE MAINSTREAM RIGHT PARTIES WHO STAND TO GAIN FROM ASSOCIATING WITH THE HARDER RIGHT.

>> TRADITIONALLY, ONE OF THE PLATFORM PLANKS OF FAR RIGHT PARTY IN EUROPE OR ELSEWHERE HAS BEEN TIED TO A CERTAIN NATIONALISM.

HAS BEEN EASILY IDENTIFIED AS SOMEONE WHO CARES ABOUT THE OTHER AND THAT MIGHT BE THE IMMIGRANT, THAT MIGHT BE SOMEONE COMING IN FROM OUTSIDE TO TAKE JOBS, ETC.

I WONDER IF YOU ARE SEEING DIFFERENT MINORITY COMMUNITIES EVEN WITHIN AND, WHAT I AM THINKING OF RIGHT NOW IS KIND OF AN ANTI-LGBTQ+ LEGISLATION NOT JUST IN THE U.S.

BUT ALSO IN PARTS OF EUROPE.

OR EVEN REALLY A TAX ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN PLACES THAT WE THOUGHT WERE OTHERWISE PROGRESSIVE SAFE HAVENS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THAT IN -- PROBABLY SET THE TONE ON YOU KNOW, ON THIS EARLY ON.

NOT JUST IN THE IMMIGRANT WERE ALSO YOU KNOW, VERY -- PUSHING BACK ON WOMEN'S RIGHTS, CERTAINLY IN THE POLISH CASE ON ABORTION WHICH HAS BEEN A HUGE ISSUE IN POLAND WITH THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT REALLY TRYING TO CRACK DOWN ON IT.

AND POLISH CITIZENS REALLY TRYING TO PUSH BACK.

BUT, WHERE WE ALSO SEE IT WHERE I THINK IT IS VERY INTERESTING IS IN THE SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES.

SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN KIND OF YOU KNOW TRAIL BLAZERS IN TERMS OF PARTICULARLY WOMEN'S RIGHTS, THE PUSHBACK IN A PLACE LIKE FINLAND OR SWEDEN IS NOT JUST ON IMMIGRANTS BUT, IT IS ALSO ON THE FACT THAT THE OTHER HERE IS THE WOMEN WHO HAVE TAKEN THE SERVICE JOBS.

AND, YOU KNOW IN A WAY IT MAKES SENSE.

IT IS THOSE PLACES THAT WERE FURTHEST AHEAD LIKE THE SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES ON PARTICULAR GENDER RIGHTS THAT YOU KNOW WHERE THE PUSHBACK IS THE MOST CONSPICUOUS.

AND IT IS NO LONGER JUST TRADITIONALLY THE MIGRANTS OR IMMIGRANT BUT, IT IS INCREASINGLY YOU KNOW, OTHER PERCEIVED MINORITIES.

THE FINAL OTHER THAT I WOULD MENTIONED AND, I THINK IT IS TAKING SHAPE YOU KNOW, REALLY UNDER OUR EYES IN EUROPE IS THE KIND OF MIDDLE-CLASS ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS CITIZEN WHO IS, YOU KNOW STARTING TO BECOME YOU KNOW, A FIGURE OF HATRED.

TRYING TO PUSH AN ENVIRONMENTAL AGENDA, TRYING TO RAISE THE ALARM ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

THEY ARE CONSIDERED YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF DELETE THAT ALSO NEEDS PUSHING BACK ON.

>> HOW MUCH IS THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT A RESPONSE TO THE LEFT TAKING ITS EYE ON THE BALL?

>> I THINK IT IS A HUGE PART OF IT.

IT IS QUITE CLEAR, IF WE WANT TO GET THESE VOTERS BACK, THERE NEEDS TO BE A CREDIBLE SOCIAL OFFER.

A CREDIBLE OFFER OF TAKING THEIR NEEDS, THEIR VIEWS, SERIOUSLY AND, YOU KNOW, AND MEETING THESE NEEDS AND BEEN IN CONVERSATION WITH THESE VIEWS.

IT IS REALLY VERY CLEAR.

SO, WITH THESE PARTIES, PEOPLE WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS IN A KIND OF YOU KNOW, MORE CONNECTED WAY.

AND THEY OFFER A CONNECTION WHICH, PROGRESSIVES HAVE FAILED TO DO FOR A WHILE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU.