Hello and welcome to lawmakers beyond the Dome, I'm Donna Lowry and Atlanta with this show, we go beyond the lawmakers show, we are during the legislative session to examine what happens, after bills become laws and how they affect Georgians in this hour.

It's all about education from how new new laws are playing out in school districts to what's happening in classroom.

It's and what we might see legislators focus on in the upcoming session.

Beginning in January, we have an outstanding lineup of panelists to talk about these issues.

But we start with reviewing a few of the new education laws and how Georgia school systems are grappling with them.

The battle over.

What's taking place in education is not in classrooms.

It's at school board meetings across Georgia and Savannah.

I have to believe that you were not previously aware that books inappropriate for children were in our school libraries in Newnan, believe what you want about racial and sexual discussions in schools, especially involving very young children, but these things are absolutely part of a deliberate plan.

To disorient and confuse immature Minds incoming, some teachers may think they're teaching critical thinking, when all they're doing is pushing one dogmatic view.

Insisting, that boys can be hormonal e and surgically transformed into the girls.

We are focused on really anything involving our schools, at the moment, the different ideologies that are being pushed, but Rhonda Thomas is the founder and president of the Georgia based National Group, truth in education.

So it It could be ideologies that are not morally.

Maybe what some parents wouldn't want.

It might be ideologies that are anti-god and tie history anti country.

The ideologies.

Often mentioned our critical race Theory or device of Concepts parental rights, transgender issues, social emotional learning and obscene books and materials parents want our children to be in school for what school was.

To be and that's to teach math reading science English.

Not to be we're teaching more cultural competencies now than we are core competencies who's Thomas took that message to lawmakers during the last Georgia legislative session.

I'm representing several thousand parents here today, interest in a number of cultural issues gained traction from Republican leadership, despite pushback from Democrats several bills passed along party lines.

Mmm, Among the most widely discussed is the one that bans Educators from teaching device of academic Concepts about racism.

I think it's another placeholder term for you like critical race Theory, the notion that there are topics that can make students feel uncomfortable, therefore should be forbidden.

Terms of discussion, really makes no sense, because if you were to really turn that on its head, you can turn almost every subject into a conversation that would make any Student or any single student uncomfortable critical race Theory or CRT taught in college and law schools.

Maintains that racism is a social construct embedded in institutions from Criminal Justice and employment to housing and Healthcare.

It is not taught in K-12 schools in Georgia but opponents of CRT say it comes into play.

In other ways, social emotional learning is being used to destabilize our children emotionally.

In order to break them down.

In order for them to accept, whatever they want to teach them, they are actually bringing in equity, which hurts all children.

Her examples, getting rid of gifted classes were beginning to do that because if one child is not gifted, then another child should not have that opportunity.

So we're beginning to get rid of AP classes.

If one child can't afford to do an AP class than it's not right for another child to be able to do it.

When Governor Brian Kemp signed device of Concepts and other education bills into laws, the burden of implementing them are Bell on school board's, a draft policy for ikp, be divisive Concepts that complaint resolution process.

House.

Bill 1084 was signed and approved by Governor Kim.

It's also known as the protect students First Act under the law school board's.

Had until August 1st to formally passed the resolution.

Some Old with it.

Marshall Orson is one of two Dekalb County board members who abstained when it came to the final vote.

I actually had been an advocate for us, taking a different approach, which was that simply create a policy that said we will follow with the law will do?

I knew that materially that was going to be different, but I thought it was expressing the sentiment that I think is still widely held across the entire School Board, which is that this policy doesn't really make sense and it is likely to raise differences and Then it is actually solve anything.

And for some Educators it's certainly caused worried.

There was a lot of, I guess trepidation.

There was a lot of nervousness from teachers.

Well, what does this mean?

Because it is very vague, a lot of things can make people uncomfortable about history, Jennifer Sandlin chairs, the social studies department and overseas 24.

Teachers at East calida, High School.

There are certain topics that are hard topics To teach and how we teach the Holocaust, we teach about genocide.

We these are, these are topics that our students need to know about in history.

But what we have found just as a department, is that, that what seems to be going on with these laws is more of political.

Well, the device of Concepts law has led to uncertainty in Georgia education.

It's the obscene materials law that has Arguably challenged.

Many of the state school board's the most.

Did you know, that Islands?

Had High houses.

One of the most egregious examples of pornography entitled genderqueer those who want what they consider obscene, materials taken out of school.

Libraries have laid on the pressure during public comment sessions at school board meetings, according to pin America, a nonprofit that promotes free expression in literature Georgia is one of 32 states to ban More than 16 hundred books from public school libraries during the 2021 2022.

School year.

Historically, when books get banned, it doesn't end up.

Well for the people or for the leadership fifteen-year-old Natalie's earned the daughter of teachers and an Avid Reader heard about the new law and felt compelled to speak to her school board.

There's some of my other research.

I've also noticed, books, like Of Mice & Men, Brave, New World Classics, like that to me since their ship is somebody in power.

Taking a piece of educational material and basically stripping it away.

Stripping away, any educational value or likes implants of meaning that could possibly come from it before the law school board's had policies on reviewing materials in school libraries.

But opponents argue, it's not enough to make their point.

Some public speakers have read explicit content from books available at schools Looking for Alaska by John Green.

This book Chains material involving a 16 year old boy, getting his first aural experience tons of underage drinking so much that there is a tragic accident.

There's a reference in the book to p*** the readings during public.

Sometimes live-streamed meetings, I'm requesting that the board.

Consider a moratorium on the dirty book reading has led some boards to change public, comment policies, failure to abide.

By this policy may result in forfeited your right to participate.

Board member meetings, Forsyth County School Board changed its policy.

Then band to parents from meetings who continue to publicly read explicit materials, the members of Mama bears of Forsyth County, Allison hair and Cindy Marten filed, a lawsuit.

Alleging, the school board wanted to silence and banished from its meetings.

Any parent who simply reads aloud from its School's library books and saying the first amendment guarantees plaintiffs rights to Speak out and petition, the government about which books belong.

In school, libraries, the parent that was reading the book and was stopped by the board.

Offensive speech is not is covered by the First Amendment.

And do you know that, by cutting her off, they admitted that was pornography yet they're allowing it in our libraries.

If it's offensive in that board member it should.

Even more offensive to children in middle and high school for Georgia school boards, the new laws have in many ways, increased engagement in their meetings and in schools.

And in that sense, it's welcome attention on an area of government often forgotten or overlooked, even when there are issues and candidates on the ballot.

Okay?

So you know how we've been talking about fairy tales in classrooms, the new mandates are becoming too much for some who are choosing to leave teaching.

Yeah, but for others has this last year changed.

How I feel about teaching, I would say it's made it more difficult.

It has and more stressful in ways that shouldn't necessarily have been so stressful, but has it discouraged me from continuing teaching?

No, because in the end, you know, I'm here for my students and, and I love Of teaching joining me in the first part of the show to discuss some of those issues.

And more are the founder of the nonprofit, protect student, health, Georgia, Noel kahane.

Next on member of the Collier County school board and the Georgia school boards Association.

Amy Dee's also education columnist with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution Maureen Downey, who writes, the get schooled column, and the deputy director of programs and strategy for the Georgia Southern.

Earn Poverty, Law, Center, Kevin Mi, thank you all for being here.

So we want to where there's a lot to cover.

We want to cover a lot of ground, several education laws.

Let's start with the law that restricts, how divisive Concepts about racer tie.

It limits discussion of race bands.

Teaching One race is inherently Superior to another race and that the u .s.

is fundable fundamentally race.

It's IT bands that so marine and we've seen this kind of movement across the country.

Can you tell us a little bit more of where all of this is coming from?

It's coming from people who believe that our history has been sullied.

By the way, it's been presented.

They believe that teachers are liberal and that they are directing the students to think the same way that they do, they really are concerned about how students feel about the country.

And as such, they, I would argue that they are seeking a more sanitized view of our history.

But a dangerous view of our history.

Our Supreme Court will take up on Monday.

The discussion of the formative action and if you remove affirmative action and if you can't talk about racism and how it impacts students, if that's eliminated from Georgia classrooms, if students can't learn about racism as anything more than an artifact from 30 years ago, I don't think students can make sense of the world they live in the they'll think that there's something wrong with them rather than the systems that are applying racism to them.

So I think it's a dangerous direction that we're going.

In.

So we're going to go to Noel now and I know you feel a little different with a u r. A Georgia State House, seat, and you included a parent's rights, Revival.

Yes.

First, tell us a little bit about what that means and your concerns, and all of this.

So we've noticed that a lot of parents have become too busy.

They're super trusting of the school system but unfortunately, we find ourselves now and an area of post trust with our government schools, and that's unfortunate.

So our goal is to teach parents.

Taxpayers and oh Grandmama bears.

And Grandpa bears are excellent advocates for their grandchildren.

And also teachers we actually help a lot of teachers learn how to get information to legislators if they have a problem they can they can ask for help from legislators.

We're actually helping parents go to their school board meetings.

Give them advice on how to have the best conversation with their with their school districts because that's where their kids spend most of their day.

Yeah so we would get back to You and just a second.

I want to get on you Kevin miles and the Covenant of the Southern Poverty Law.

Center's position, your your position, on this device of Concepts law.

You know, we believe that children have a right to be given accurate history.

They have a right to be told truthful history.

And as was said earlier, you know, the one thing we can.

All agree on is that the issues that have happened in the past are fixed, those things have happened.

And the the issues that have happened in the past.

Create the context under which we all now exist to Rob Children of the context, which explains their own condition is inherently consequential.

Because, you know, a child who wants to make sense of the world, in which they live should have access.

They have every right to have access to accurate and factual information about why the world is the way it is, so that they can formulate plans on how they want to move forward and things that They may want to change in the future so Noel let's get back to you.

And what do you say to those who say this is censorship and undermines public education?

Yeah I love the way you explain that that's that's exactly right I'm teaching our history, warts-and-all is so important for our children so we don't repeat what's already happened in the past what's not?

Okay.

And I love the way that the bill is written.

It says that we should be teaching our history and I encourage anybody, please read that bill.

It was it took a lot of time to craft but it's important that We know that the legislators got examples of actual CRT and our state with our taxpayer dollars, we have teachers getting trainings on how they have white privilege.

We have schools that are actually segregating segregating by race and there was a lawsuit about that here in Atlanta, so they did have actual examples.

I'm so glad they pasta.

Yeah.

So, but there are those people who don't believe it.

Still has teeth.

Are you one of those?

I don't, I agree.

A lot of bills.

Need a lot more teeth.

Alright, I want hurry, I want to get to you a me, a little because this is this fell on school boards.

It's and you're yeah.

Not too to really move this forward and so tell us about some of the discussions you had in Coweta County.

Think when we first read the bill and I can still speak for Coweta County.

We could it really didn't change anything for us because we had all of that in practice as well.

We weren't teaching critical race Theory.

We do not do that.

It wasn't something that we were nervous about we were like, wow, we've got this divisive concept bill that we weren't teaching device of Concepts.

So, And my local school board.

It wasn't an issue.

We adopted it into policy but it had been in practice for years.

And I agree with what you said, I believe I'm a history writer and I do believe we've got to know where we've been in order to know where we're going and, you know, just a touch on, you know, you mentioned the word trust and I think there's a huge mistrust by local political activist.

That keep just demeaning our public education system, our teachers deserve respect.

They deserve to have that trust and these local and in my school board is no.

No exception to this rule, where they're coming in mean, angry demeaning, pointing fingers with false accusations.

It's been a it's been a trying season.

Yeah.

It when I said battle, Battle Ground, I'm gonna stick with you.

Kevin what about the argument that without the law?

Some teachers are free to discuss whatever ideologies they may have, and that that might be dangerous, you know?

And one thing I want to mention because it is interesting, when you look at the construction of the bill, The language in the bill seemed somewhat simple, but there's a, there's a flaw in the way that is constructed in that it allows for what I would term as a hecklers veto.

And that is it crowdsources complaints about anything that is in curriculum that someone may believe is problematic.

So it doesn't matter if the history is accurate, it doesn't matter if the history is truthful, any parent of any child?

At any school has the ability to come forward with a complaint Based on how they interpret, what they may have heard from a student and then the school is forced to respond to that as though, the history that was presented was inaccurate or political or, you know, something that was ginned up, in order to move forward some agenda.

When in reality, what we are talking about, is just the teaching of accurate history, critical race theory was never being taught in Georgia K-12 schools.

It is to even use the term.

It is Rhetorical costume that is used to cover an effort.

That is really more directly towards censorship.

Yeah.

So we talked about that.

The school boards have dealt with it Marine.

Teachers had this say this is weighed heavy on them and I know they've reached out to you.

What are you hearing?

I think this bill and, and this broad term divisive Concepts is going to chill the way teachers respond to students.

What they talk to students about and I think the school should be Be a place.

I have four children.

I want my kids to be able to go to school and talk to their teachers about what's happening in their lives and their classmates lives.

For example, the AJC.

We look at school discipline every few years, and we find the same fact black children.

Black students are disciplined at higher rates for the same offenses.

They get more extreme penalties.

A school, should be able to talk about that.

Kids should be able to raise their hand in class and say to their teacher.

What do you make of that?

And I think this bill, Going to stop any discussion about that because some parents going to hear about that and call the principal and say that was divisive, that made my student, my white student feel bad.

And I think that we have to, I want to encourage teachers to really talk to students, not to silence students.

And I think this is a silencing effort.

Yeah, so we want to hear what some other Georgians fell about this.

And we went across the state to hear what they had to say about some of these new laws.

What are your thoughts about the recently passed divisive Concepts teaching law which bans teaching critical race Theory or and forbids teaching that might make students feel uncomfortable about the race?

It's a tough issue.

I have to say I just I'm not sure we should be putting limits on what teachers can teach I think race is a part of life and it's going to be always a part of just living.

And I don't know that we can put limits on what teachers say or don't say yeah well that's a no-brainer that should not be in classrooms.

CRT has no place in the classroom and what a part about it.

Bothers you what part doesn't bother me?

It all bothers me.

Yeah, that's not not something you teach in a classroom and said, parents are raising your children.

I don't like it.

What is school school?

Supposed to be learning reading riting and rithmetic like I used to do.

I didn't have all this race.

Whatever y'all this other job gets put in it.

Nowadays, I don't and I don't I don't like it.

I think it's very important to address history and I think it's unfair to consider a, some people's potential discomfort.

As opposed to people who you know, actually have ancestors have gone through it and you know like what about that side of it?

Like why are we why are we?

You worried about a potential problem and who could potentially make uncomfortable when it's you know, so important to others.

Honestly.

Think the way that it's being applied, it's being applied to discourage people, from teaching, the truth about our racial history that that's that's the way I've honestly felt ever.

Since these laws started coming about, I think it's more about more about muzzling the truth.

And the Real History than anything else.

Another law allows parents to protest books and other materials.

They consider obscene that they believe are harmful to minors.

Is that censorship or a necessary scrutiny to protect children.

It I guess.

It depends on what.

But generally speaking, I mean if you don't want your kid to read a particular book, don't let him read it.

You know, why should you keep a book inaccessible?

Simply because you don't Want your kid to read that.

Yeah, you can, you know, I mean any more than you should monitor, what your kids are watching on TV, you know, we're not going to censor, you know, everything on television, but parents have an obligation to monitor, what their kids are watching, what the kids are reading and dictate what's appropriate for them, but don't don't try to impose those kinds of restrictions on other people.

I think it is censorship.

I mean, it's important to protect children of course, but I I think it's also important to provide reading material, or access to information of all sorts of things and resources and let parents individually decide what perhaps their child can, look at a read verses completely Banning it from say, libraries or school systems altogether if you're going to Push books away and materials away from kids.

Even if they are, if they have exposed to material, they should be up to the parents to let them check that out and let the parents decide not necessarily the school systems inside of that, in my opinion.

I also think that if a parent doesn't want their child reading something, they can just tell they're told not to read it so I don't think that they should keep it from other people who may want to read it in the public schools.

So now let's talk about that law dealing with obscene materials and I don't want to start by pointing out that this is a national issue.

The publishing industry says, it's actually getting hit by all sides.

And a quote in the New York Times opinion piece, the chief executive with MacMillan publishing.

John sergeant said about book bands on the right.

It's going through institutions and school boards and on the left it's using social media as a tool of activism, it's aggressively protesting to increase.

The pain threshold until their censorship.

Going the other way.

According to Sergeant Publishers are feeling pressure from inside the industry, not to publish anything.

That might be seen as degrading or defensive when it comes to gender or offensive to one group or another.

So I think we're going to start with you with this in a while.

I know that this is a big issue with you.

You've actually gone to school boards and and read some of these materials, talk about what your major concern is especially in reading the explicit material.

In front of school boards, right?

So, what we need to understand, that, in Georgia law, it is illegal for everyone in this room to expose children, miners to obscene mit's, obscene, harmful materials.

It is defined in the code.

So, none of us here at the table.

Can your coach?

Can't your pastor?

Can't?

No one can the only place that kids can be exposed to graphic sexual conduct and content Visual and verbal?

All written, and online is in their school, libraries and public libraries.

So parents and grandparents and teachers, who didn't know, this will tell us and we will help them to try to get it out of their schools even if we have to go to the legislature to do that.

And it's so important because one in one, in four girls and one in 13 boys have experienced sexual abuse in their childhood.

So, when a child comes across that innocently and reads the, the section of the Book or even the graphic picture.

I brought a whole bunch but I don't have to bring it out right now that you can go and see it on my website.

They are re-victimized.

These children are re -victimized with our taxpayer dollars and like Amy said, that's when the mama bears come out and maybe they don't always act perfectly perfectly nice.

But even a school board meeting.

The information was given to a school board member and he was so upset, he crunched up in a ball and said, I don't want to see that and threw it on the floor, but our kids can see it, but reading it in front of the school board says to And it's explicit says is exposing people who may not ever pick up that book.

They never pick up that book, right?

Because they are paying for it, if I'm paying for a book and I don't, I don't know what's there and I hear about it on the news or from a school board meeting and it gets people out to fix the problem and I like the bill, you know, we agree with a bill because parents are in charge of it.

I wish taxpayers could be also because we pay for it and the final Arbiter is the school board and there's a timetable.

So So we're in favor of SB 226.

I encourage anybody to go read it.

So you're on the school board you've had people come before you reading these materials.

What's the main reaction?

Absolutely.

I think the one thing I did like it says, parents have to be the ones to review these books and some of in my case, in Coweta County, they are not parents, they are political activists, and they come and they're angry, and they're screaming, and they're yelling.

And their demeanor has just been accusatory.

And I think what?

Breaks my heart, the most is there.

Accusing my teachers.

My public school Educators who are doing that work.

Every single day that we have been called groomers, our teachers have been called indoctrinating our students and it's just not true.

It is, it is not happening.

And I have one of our media specialist, their little eight-year-old boy was sitting there and they started reading this material and they're exposing everyone to it.

And their argument is while you're doing it and we're not because we have a policy in Coweta County.

That says if you don't Want your child to read this book?

The parent can opt out of it.

I have been that you don't have to check that book out and the books that they are reading the political activist in my boardroom, they're reading for AP Juniors, and seniors who have to have parental permission again.

So it is not exposing Elementary children to that book.

Which is what these political activists are doing.

When they come read aloud in a board meeting, it is just upsetting to me that educators are doing the job and have lost such a disrespect and And I distrust with these groups just falsely accusing them of stuff they they're just not doing so Noel.

I know I one of the the teacher I interviewed talked about the fact that it is taking up time in the classroom away from the classroom for them, to go through e because this involves materials even online materials and they are spending hours going through the materials and I am fine with that.

We have offered to know to volunteer to help do that.

There is nothing wrong with us asking for a full audit of Cereals, these children.

We should have full faith.

That our schools are not exposing our children.

And frankly, the fact that they are even middle school and I'm happy with your new policy.

I'm not sure when it went into effect, but but lots of things have gone into effect after these activists.

But these are taxpayers veterans.

We have one mom, she's a Hispanic veteran taxpayer and a parent and, and all across the state.

These people are making their voices heard because it's not too much to ask that our kids, the Gatekeepers.

And the teachers?

Are they doing it?

No.

But if we can all of them know, some of them.

Yes.

We have some teachers with actual classroom libraries, which is not protected under the code.

So they could be liable for some sort of crime if they are exposing in their classroom.

These materials I want to let Maureen jump in on this.

Definitely a national issue and I know Amy referred to it.

There's a there's a feeling that there is there's a group of people doing this.

Not just with, in Georgia.

Sir.

Sorry this is a national issue and it's a national issue that speaks to sort of and things, get out of control.

You know for example in the last few months parents in different communities.

By the way, always a minority of parents as our school board races.

Recently showed we had some School Board Mesa races in Georgia that had some of these very conservative parents who wanted all of these laws to be enforced and he's be stronger and most of those candidates did not win.

So let me point that out.

But I want to go back to the extreme.

Here we have had the biographies of Ruby Bridges, Harriet Tubman lak and MLK, a collection of books of essays of African-American leaders.

All of those books have been challenged, the common denominator, a lot of those books, speak to students of color.

They're written by people of color on the high school level where they're banning books.

They are written and they contain characters.

Who are lesbian, who are gay?

Who are questioning Ying who are transgender and I do think that parents have a right to say I don't want my kid reading a book.

I think that's fine.

I don't want other parents telling my kids what they can read, I'll make that decision.

And I also think frankly by the time, gets kids get to Junior and Senior High School between Netflix between Tick-Tock between YouTube and between the fact, they're adults practically.

Well some of them are adults, I would let them choose their own reading material.

Hopefully, they've gone to a point in life we can.

They can do that.

So your response to that know, I hear that a lot.

Well they can get it here, they can get it.

There I am the taxpayer.

I am not providing those materials to those children.

I am.

That is a red herring frankly.

Now unfortunately we are paying for these materials and I just find it very upsetting that you're comparing the essays that no nobody that I know of is complain about essays.

We are complaining about sexual graphic step-by-step how to perform oral sex.

Oral sex graphic pictures of it, pictures of rape descriptions of vile, graphic, sexual material.

That's what that's what I'm talking about.

And and, and the sexual orientation doesn't matter, there's plenty, more heterosexual, grabbing material, then there is anything else and we deserve better Nationwide, we deserve better.

Okay.

I want to get miles in on this sorry that we're talking about a discussion around censorship and the ability for parents to go in and make decisions for other families on What their children are able to read.

And I want to make sure that we don't complete the fact that just because a book exists or just because a book is in a library, does not mean that the school is exposing all of its students to that material.

There are policies that are in place in schools that allow parents to decide.

You know what, which books they want their children to have access to.

I am a parent, I am a grandparent.

I have the ability to make decisions about what books, my children read, or my grandchildren would read.

But it is a different argument.

Argument to say that we believe that a group of activists should be able to say that we want to make sure.

And if you go through the code and what was suggested, what would be added to the code?

The proposed change that was put forward, would have allowed for prosecutors to basically criminally prosecute, school, officials, and Librarians, for the books that they had inside of the library.

And that is a bridge too far.

And to the point of whether or not we're talking about essays, or whether we're talking about, Explicit materials.

What we are talking about is a structure that allows people to make decisions on behalf of other families.

And in while one family may be upset about this book or about this author or about this essay, the problem is we are taking the ability of pairs while we're saying we're protecting parents, we are taking the ability for parents to make decisions about what books their children will read.

We're taking it away from them and we're saying that we know best and We're going to go in and clean up your libraries.

I want to mention something, the publisher Follette came up with this idea for an optional feature on its database.

That would allow parents.

It would have allowed parents to receive emails whenever their child, checks out books from the library.

And another feature that allows parents to register specific texts that their child can not read, but the company nixed, the idea saying there wasn't a single thing that could be built, that would have met everyone's desires.

They got slammed for it.

Is there anything?

That would work for you in terms of something like that.

When we first started this bill that mean this bill was started in 1995, we had some great parents and grandparents working in the bill and it died.

So we took a backup and 2020 and are our most egregious stuff materials were on fold at Destiny and I actually put it up on the committee screen so they could, I mean it was erotica and as a teacher and a volunteer teacher, I these are things that A, I do not teach to my students and they were, it was available online to them.

And that's another thing that costs a lot of money as Follet.

We taxpayers pay a lot of money to to fold out for that and, you know, that's not surprising, it's unfortunate.

Some of the worst stuff is there.

What about the history books that have that people have gone after in terms of asking that they be banned?

I haven't gone after history books so you're mostly focused on sexual graphic material like the code says yeah.

Is there a is there an answer in terms of what the school board's can think?

Being in battled, with this, for the last 15 months, it has been first and foremost in my daily life because I am a school board member.

We have had to increase police presence at my school board, by nine people because of the, the angry violence that has been exposed over this.

And I'd like to address something, you said you mentioned that we because of the activists we have this policy, it was not because of the activists, we've had policies for years.

The one you were specifically talking about, yes, you've had a policy for a POC that the governor handed down sit Only a parent may have a book placed under review that people coming to my board meeting were angry about that.

They said we were censoring them, but I agree that a parent should agree with what those children read.

Not political activists and I stand behind that but long-standing policies on book reviews have been in my district for years and years.

It did not come about from this education, reform has been going on since 1991.

And I can say, you know, what, I've heard you say, mostly As taxpayer and money.

I hear that quite a bit from the political a Activists because it comes down to money and taxpayers so that is not surprising.

Well, two percent of our taxes and above goes to fund that it's a major issue.

We've added we just you know touch the surface here but I appreciate all of you being here to talk about these issues.

We're going to be hearing about them, I believe in the next legislative session.

No, well I think you're going to tell me that, that's true, right.

We're probably going to hear more about it right now.

We've got to go to a break and we will come back and we'll have a new panel of Us and they'll join us to talk more about education in Georgia.

You're watching, lawmakers beyond the Dome on gpp TV.

At GPB.

Our goal is to create a space where people can come together to share and celebrate great content.

Engaging with viewers and listeners is an essential part of gpb's Mission to educate, inform and entertain.

Virtual events are a handy way for us to keep in touch with our friends and neighbors, even when we're apart.

But there's nothing like spending some in-person quality time in our community together.

So we hope you'll join us.

Visit gpb.org/lawmakers, 90 to learn more about upcoming events.

Welcome back to lawmakers beyond the Dome.

We're talking about education issues and joining the show.

Now are the president of the Georgia Association of Educators Lisa Morgan.

Next a licensed, professional counselor.

Joe Vivian whose clients include adolescence and two guests who are devoted to researching examining and looking for solutions to education issues in Georgia education, director of the Georgia budget and policy.

The Institute Stephen Owens and Senior policy Analyst at the Georgia partnership for excellence in education, Matt Smith.

Welcome to all of you for coming on the show.

We're changing gears a little bit here and Lisa I want to start with you.

And one of the things that we know that's going on right now or teacher shortages experiencing not only across the state but Nationwide and certainly this issue that people are focused on and it's not just about burnout, is it?

Tell us what's going on.

It's not just about Burnout, but it is in a large part.

The burnout is contributing to the teacher shortage.

We had a teacher shortage prior to the pandemic.

In fact, starting in 2017 in our country there were more positions for educators than there are Educators available.

So we've been dealing with it but like many other things that the pandemic highlighted and exacerbated it has done that with the teacher shortage.

We traditionally So education science and math, are the areas where we traditionally feel there is a shortage but now we have a shortage in all content areas, really, and across the state across the state.

Yes, ma'am.

So we did talk with some Georgians about what they think is behind the teacher shortage and this is what they had to say.

I think the problem is one teachers don't get paid enough to put up with what they do currently because I graduated with a four-year degree in education and I don't want to go teach because they have to get, they get put through the wringer and they don't get, they don't get nearly the much.

The amount of depreciation and monetary value that they deserve and teachers are being belittled.

They're being overworked and they're definitely just not getting what they deserve now.

We get more teachers into the classroom.

You know, when I can go to Walmart and get more money and better benefits, Chatham County doesn't even reimburse for tuition for education for teachers which just kind of strikes me as ironic.

So there's a whole lot of systemic issues of how to attract good teachers and how to keep them motivated salary.

First of all, my husband is real vocal on this that the budget, the budget is extensive.

If and a lot of that money is not going, it's not trickling down into teachers and into the facilities, it's a lot top-heavy.

So if they increase the teachers are totally underpaid I think what's happening with teachers.

They're going through too many things during the classroom day that they shouldn't be going through and I don't know if the system has has their back well enough and I think we're losing teachers because they're just hotter the battle everyday.

So well, let's talk about that and you know, that that gentleman talked a little bit about what the teachers are going through every day.

We know behavioral issues in the classroom.

Make it tough for teachers to teach and we're hearing coming out of that pandemic.

It's been even a bigger problem.

So tell us what you are hearing from some of your clients, some very good question and it most certainly is an issue that not only our teachers facing but even parents are facing right now.

You know, we think about the pandemic and week.

I often think about it from a perspective of adults and adults are suffering.

Suicide, rates are up for adults, depression, anxiety up for adults.

Will all the more for children.

Their frontal lobes aren't even developed yet and we've asked them to process and manage and live through this pandemic.

Let's not mention the other things that they've dealt with in the last couple of years.

And we expect them to be able to monitor their own emotions and regulate their emotions and they are ill-equipped to do it.

That's number one.

The second thing is that we think of sadness or depression, which is extremely up in our children right now as being sad or withdrawn, not eating, or eating too much, not sleeping or sleeping too much.

But let's talk about anger and irritability.

Let's talk about acting out and showing out, they do not know how to express what they're feeling, so they're doing the absolute best that they can and then they're teenagers and then their children.

And they also have behavioral issues that just come with being that age.

And I Unfortunately, many of us are ill-equipped to help them through these tough times, and that's where I feel teachers are under under supported, and then we're expecting them to deal with these children in the classroom who are going through all of this Steven.

And and then you know, we hear about the fact that they're not getting paid enough but they're they're all.

So there's there's also the feeling they're not being supported enough talk about that a little.

Absolutely students are not just floating brains that we can imprint upon the type of information.

We need they have highwomen Home lives.

They're going through, they have social-emotional health that needs to be addressed the state of Georgia.

Finances about one school counselor, for every 450 children practically local districts will supplement it, but it's not much less than 1 for every four hundred and eighteen children.

The state pays for one school kit school psychologist.

For every 2475 children.

These are huge case loads while I know that students are struggling with mental health.

We know that they are, we, they are going things and they are not, all right, but we don't have the state supports to support like the whole touch, child, not just the part of them, that's learning math, English and science.

Yeah, and so mad, how critical is that?

What teachers are going through to getting academically Georgia back on track post, pandemic, right?

So many of you know, that we saw the state level nape scores released on Monday.

And really what it highlighted for us is that there is a missed opportunity.

A lot of times we've been talking about learning loss when really we should be talking about opportunities or really missed opportunities to learn.

And so when we're thinking about that at the Georgia partnership, one thing that we really been thinking about is how we can accelerate learning and differentiate learning, not just for students, but for teachers as well, we're thinking of active Learners really what's crucial in a school Houses that everybody is actively learning and that everybody's social and emotional health is attended to and so a lot of times we can't parse this is an issue around teacher shortage or this is an issue around student learning when really what we're trying to say is that let's think about policies that integrate these strategies that benefit teachers and students.

Yeah.

So we're going to you talked about the nape scores and they did the numbers by the national assessment of Education, progress in ape.

Also known as the nation's report card, show that there was a massive learning loss for students during the pandemic, two decades, and some areas.

Fortunately as you mentioned Georgia kind of ferret about them in the middle of all of this.

You you didn't like when I said learning loss on all of this.

So what is happening that you want parents to know about what post pandemic, what are.

And I'm saying post pandemic, we're still under a pandemic or actually, we're still in it and it's not learning loss, because children didn't lose learning that they previously.

They lost opportunities and they also survived and are still surviving a pandemic and, you know, talking about their mental health and those social emotional needs, we often say in education that we have to deal with Maslow's before we can deal with Bloom's.

Taxonomy, we have to deal with those physical mental social and emotional needs before our students can truly begin to recover academically.

So some Times we're going to have to slow things down so that we can deal with those very real traumas that our children have experienced and then we can deal with the academics for example.

We know that there are almost 6,000 children in the state of Georgia who lost their primary caregiver or their parent to covid-19 that 6,000 children, with that specific loss, other children have also experienced losses, And so we in a sense need to take a step back and allow our children to heal from the trauma, and then we can help them heal, academically.

Yeah.

Before I get the Stephen, I know you agree with that and I'll certainly, I agree with it.

And I think theoretically, we all know what needs to happen.

The question isn't doesn't need to happen.

Is what do we need to do?

And I think one of the concerns I have and you mentioned it Stephen as regards to our school counselors.

I love our school counselors but they're overworked and there.

Assignments, literally take them away from what we're wanting them to do and that is to be there for the emotional and social needs of our children.

I think they're also been shortchanged.

Many of them did not have the add on when they went to get their masters of clinical mental health counseling.

And if that is the component that we're speaking to right now and we're asking people to do things that they may not necessarily have been trained to do so theoretically yes, we need to address those issues.

Are we prepared to do what's necessary to put the right people in place to provide.

Funding so that these children's needs can be met.

No better place than it's cool.

You hear people say things such as well.

We have Community Counseling that requires a parent to get you their school.

We show up for that and if the services are available there, I then think we can help our children with their mental and their social needs.

And then we can address the academic needs.

And the academic needs to, even may include needing tutoring or needing extra help talk about what you've what you've learned.

We've learned that schools have been given a massive amount of federal funding, as well as some targeted state grants to support them and coming out of the pandemic and the results of instructional time loss.

But the schools that are trying to spend this money are running into these amazing hurdles and how to do.

So you can say that you want to hire a lot more school psychologists.

But if they don't have enough of a labor force because you're in rural Georgia, or if you can't meet them at the pay that they deserve and need if you want.

You want to hire a bunch of tutors but those tutors aren't available.

We're seeing that schools.

Want to be able to be nimble and meet this needs but they operate inside a larger context and some of the results that I've seen working with gpe have been really encouraging on how you can spend those dollars on targeted assistance.

Specifically, for those students that we've known, we didn't need a pandemic to know that we needed more support for low-income students students with special needs students.

Experiencing homelessness food insecurity, we've known for a while.

These kids Need support.

It's been nice that we've had the federal dollars now to recognize that on a grander scale.

Yeah, let's talk about what you found with the Georgia partnership for excellence in education, in terms of what the needs are out there and what can really truly help.

Yeah, so to get a little bit of background to what Steven is referencing, the Georgia Department of Education, subcontracted with the Georgia partnership for excellence in education to assess the impact and the use of covid-19 dollars.

And so what we have found and we will be releasing a Year.

One report next month is that the use of these funds and the capacity to use them is varied across the state.

You know, Stephen mentioned that it's really important to key in on these different issues.

Where there might not be a labor force to hire, or there might be a reticence to do that because this money is being used for a short-term purpose.

And so, one thing that we're starting to see is our there are a group of, there's a group of superintendents that really are.

Action oriented and creative and Innovative.

And they're trying to scale some of the practices that they're using these funds for and so we're excited that they're coming together to kind of find an opportunity out of this uncertainty that has been created by the pandemic best practices passed across the state.

Lisa, take index eight Decades of work for Georgia, squirrels scores to improve and we're hearing they're doing well in some areas and particularly we heard about advanced placement the AP test.

But how explain how that's Just a portion of the students who need help who are out there in need of help.

At this point, we've always known that standardized test scores are a snapshot.

It's a one-day.

It's a snapshot of that child's learning.

Our Educators in Georgia working with our children.

Every day know that there are situations that we know these children need additional resources.

They need additional assistance are children who live in poverty.

We know that.

They frequently need additional resources.

They come to school with a limited vocabulary compared to their peers from wealthy or homes.

We know these things exist and if we have to provide our children the resources and the support that they need to access a great public education.

Yeah.

And let's talk about one of the groups that we know the kids in poverty.

Steven, you found that Georgia is one of only six states that does not give schools Additional money to educate students who are in poverty?

That is, that means that they're there are starting at a lower Point than everybody else, right?

Absolutely.

And it was governor deals, education Reform Commission that first brought this to light, recognizing that kids are starting off at different levels.

And if we want these kids to perform on the same level with their wealth, your peers and we're gonna have to pay for it.

But yeah we're one of only six states that provides.

No additional funding to educate students living in poverty and the result is and previous nape scores.

Where's Georgia has the second-highest gap between kids with free and reduced lunch and their wealthier appears?

Some people call it an achievement Gap.

I hate that language.

But the difference between these test scores is larger and Georgia than every other state in the Union, except for Maryland.

And it's, because we're not doing, we're not describing any resources at the state level to support those kids be and we always run out of time on all of this.

But I want to get to something that's important because the legislative session is getting ready to start.

And so I'd like to ask each one of you, what you'd like to see in this next.

Just light up session that would be important in terms of improving getting kids back on track.

I want to start with you.

I know the Georgia Pub, the Georgia partnership for excellence in education.

Does this top 10 list?

You did?

I know it's not ready yet but what do you think?

Give me, give me one roughly right now.

I know it's tennis shoes to watch and we have been really agile, trying to think about how we can kind of balance, what is emerging, but also these perennial Evergreen issues.

We always need to focus on.

I would say that teacher burnout is high on our list strategies that can mitigate that education.

Finance is always an issue.

We cover it seems that it's getting a little bit more attention to share with us and it's study committee.

Another thing that we know is on top of mind to legislators, we've talked to his school, safety, coming out of Uvalde, and other related School, violence events.

Okay?

So I'm going to have to wrap you there because I want to get to everybody here.

So anything for Wanna one thing quick from everyone?

Joe Matt, you touched on it school?

Safety school.

Safety.

Most certainly.

If our children don't feel safe that makes it almost impossible for them to learn.

And many of them is not just school shooting since bullying, it's a variety of things.

They don't have that place that they can escape to anymore like they used to.

Okay, Lisa waivers, the Strategic waiver system in the Charter system.

We currently have 98% of our school system that do not have to abide by the clean.

Class size State, class size law, there more students.

We put in the classroom, the less effective Educators can be.

We know that smaller class sizes, increase student achievement.

So the top of our list are those waivers in particular, the certification of teachers and the class size and we know when there are fewer teachers you have you will see larger classrooms.

Yes Steven if we create a robust opportunity, wait for students living in poverty.

It will enter into being a top five, top ten education system in the United States.

I truly believe that but we have to do right by the least of these.

Yeah.

So you think that, do you think that the, this is the legislative session that doesn't have an election tied to it.

When we might see some of these things happen.

Stephen, nobody listens to me in the legislature, but if I had my way, absolutely, we have the resources were very rich state that pretends, like we're Poors, poor state and its low income.

Kids end up holding The bag.

So yes.

I think we can if the political will is there.

Yeah.

Well, you hopeful I'm hopeful that we will do.

What is right.

So that every child in our state has access to a great public education, have you?

What about you?

You're hopeful and thinking I'm hopeful ever The Optimist.

I feel like it's really important to that we bring Nuance into the under the gold Dome and and and to your point, you know, thinking about Finance, thinking about the whole child and new and different ways.

I'm excited.

And what about you?

I'll start.

Helpful, everybody's voice counts.

And if I stopped believing that, then the system no longer works.

So, yes, I'm hopeful.

Well, that's good.

News for all of us.

Is we go into that.

Let's hope the lawmakers are listening.

They I want to thank all of you for being here today and in to continue doing what you're doing in all aspects will be looking.

When do we can we expect top ten issues in education.

It's the Friday before legislative session which will be Friday, June 6, and you can find it online and it used to be Work him, that's it.

Alright I want to thank you all for being here.

We've had a wonderful day talking about education right here on lawmakers we would love to hear from you.

Email us at beyond the Dome at gpb.org as always join the conversation on Facebook and Twitter at GPB News using the hashtag GPB lawmakers also, GPB has an extensive education division with digital media and content plus the podcast.

Classroom conversations is the place.

For teachers to share and learn, you'll find out more about both at gpb.org education.

And of course, keep up with all the Georgia news across the state at gpb.org, Goodbye.