

Episode Four
Episode 4 | 52m 2sVideo has Closed Captions
Costley's defense presents evidence of a personality disorder.
The murder trial continues, with Costley's defense resting on evidence of an underlying personality disorder. But the prosecution rips this theory apart and Costley's case seems to lie in tatters. Costley's back is up against the wall; has he reached his tipping point? If the court finds out Yvonne lied about their affair, will they believe anything else she's said?
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Problems playing video? | Closed Captioning Feedback

Episode Four
Episode 4 | 52m 2sVideo has Closed Captions
The murder trial continues, with Costley's defense resting on evidence of an underlying personality disorder. But the prosecution rips this theory apart and Costley's case seems to lie in tatters. Costley's back is up against the wall; has he reached his tipping point? If the court finds out Yvonne lied about their affair, will they believe anything else she's said?
Problems playing video? | Closed Captioning Feedback
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Learn Moreabout PBS online sponsorship[court proceedings distant] [Yvonne] Who are you, really?
You may not be a spook, Mark Costley... but one thing's clear.
[Mark] You're beautiful.
You're in love with secrets.
[Mark] Life's mysterious.
[Yvonne] Maybe that's all we shared, you and I... [Mark] Trust me.
[Yvonne] ...a secret.
A secret we have to keep.
[prosecutor] Sergeant Johns, the man we have in the dock here, Mr Costley, -do you know him?
-Yes.
I worked with him throughout my time at the Crown Estate.
-On a daily basis?
-That's correct.
Would you mind describing to the court Mark Costley's responsibilities as a security advisor, -so far as you understand them?
-Certainly.
It was his job to ensure compliance, Health and Safety, arrangements for special events, checking the duty log, supervising shifts for the CCTV monitoring crews, that sort of thing.
And was Mr Costley good at his job?
Yes, he was, on the whole.
He was very reliable, efficient.
During the time you worked with him, until he was arrested, did your colleague display any behaviour that led to concerns that he might be unstable?
No.
He did everything that was required of him.
-He was just... normal.
-Normal?
To talk to, the way he acted.
Were you aware of any change in what you describe as Mark Costley's "normal" behaviour in the days before the killing of George Selway on March 12th of this year?
I can't remember any change at all.
-He seemed... how he always did.
-What about prior to that?
In November of the previous year, when Yvonne Carmichael told him she'd been raped?
Did you observe any change in your colleague Mark Costley's behaviour at that time?
No.
I don't remember any change whatsoever.
He was just Mark.
[Bonnard] Sergeant Johns.
You've told the court that you saw no change in Mark Costley's behaviour -in November last year, correct?
-Yes.
That's not strictly true, is it?
In respect of Mark Costley's behaviour to you, -was there a change?
-Not really.
-I don't think so.
-Isn't it the case that during November the two of you had had a short-lived relationship -which ended acrimoniously?
-No.
That's absolutely untrue.
It wasn't a relationship.
I wouldn't describe it like that at all.
How would you describe it?
I would say... Mark propositioned me.
And had he "propositioned" you prior to this?
No.
So this marked a change in his behaviour, then?
I suppose so.
I thought that you meant his general-- You went for drinks with Mr Costley after work on, I believe, three or four occasions.
Not that many times.
-Once or twice.
-Oh, really?
Well, my information is that it was at least three times, and the last of these occasions, in early December of last year, you had intimate contact with Mr Costley in a Westminster pub called the Bull and Keg.
Firstly, the first time we went out was with a group of people.
So, I would say twice.
Secondly, the contact that you're referring to was initiated by him and I told him to stop.
Immediately?
Did you ask him to stop immediately, Sergeant Johns?
Not immediately.
No.
Perhaps you could take us through exactly what happened between you in the Bull and Keg?
We'd had a few drinks and Mark, Mr Costley, had his hand on my knee.
It was making me uncomfortable.
Just having his hand on your knee?
No!
I have no wish to embarrass you, Sergeant, but can I suggest that you and Mr Costley had been drinking since around 6 p.m.
He had his hand on your knee beneath the table.
At some point, he moved his hand under your skirt, down your tights and into your underwear.
Where he proceeded...
I believe the appropriate colloquialism is, to finger you.
[prosecutor] My Lord, I fail to see how this is in necessary-- [Bonnard] I'm establishing the fitness of the witness to assess the defendant's mental state.
[judge] I'll allow this question, but move on swiftly please, Ms Bonnard.
Did Mr Costley insert his finger into your vagina, Sgt Johns?
Yes.
And did you prevent him from doing so, or object in any way?
Not at the time, no.
So, you and Mr. Costley had intimate sexual contact?
Which, in many people's eyes, constitutes a relationship.
-I told him I didn't like it.
-Was this in the pub?
No.
At work, the next day.
It was embarrassing.
I told him I wasn't interested and after that he made it clear that he was giving me the cold shoulder.
Things got quite hostile on his part, actually.
He started ignoring me in meetings and so on.
He made it really difficult.
So, when you told this court... that Mr Costley was "just Mark" in both November of last year, when Yvonne Carmichael sought his advice after her rape by George Selway, and in the days immediately preceding the killing of Selway, did his "normal" pattern of behaviour include the sexual advances towards you and his "difficult" professional behaviour?
I just meant the day-to-day.
It was nothing I couldn't handle.
Is being felt up by a colleague in the pub "normal"?
No!
Of course it's not.
No further questions for this witness, My Lord.
[Yvonne's barrister] No questions, My Lord.
[judge] Thank you, Sgt Johns.
You may step down.
[Yvonne] Poor Sergeant Johns.
Two weeks after I told you what George Selway did to me, you were in that pub with her.
That's how much I mean to you.
Dr Sanderson, can you tell the jury what you do?
I'm a consultant forensic psychiatrist, and I've been practising as such for the last 23 years.
You conducted an assessment of Mark Costley while he was on remand.
-Is that correct?
-That's correct.
Having examined Mark Costley, do you assess him as suffering from a personality disorder?
-I do not.
-Why is that?
An individual with a personality disorder would not hold down a stable marriage, let alone a career in the civil service.
And during my assessment, Mr Costley displayed none of the signs or symptoms of a personality disorder.
-What are those?
-Emotional instability, lack of individual identity, pattern of run-ins with the law, suicidal behaviours, addictions of various kinds.
In my expert opinion, he has difficulty telling the truth, but the pursuit of extramarital sex and a tendency to embroider the facts do not mean that he is mentally unwell.
Otherwise, half the men in the country would seek treatment.
Coming now to... previous offences on file?
Yes.
In 2005, Mark Costley pleaded guilty to the charge of assault occasioning actual bodily harm.
Thank you, Detective Inspector Cleveland.
That concludes the case for the Crown, My Lord.
[Yvonne] I don't know you at all, do I?
I never did, and you are all that's standing between me and a prison sentence.
[Gary] I'm sorry I wasn't there this afternoon.
I took Carrie in for a check-u.
-Everything's OK, isn't it?
-Yes, yeah.
-You would tell me if it wasn't?
-Absolutely fine.
Of course!
The baby's just not ready to come out yet.
All OK this afternoon?
Yeah.
Smoke and mirrors, you know.
You know I love you.
Stay strong, hm?
I'll see you tomorrow, love.
Bye.
[he hangs up] Good morning, Dr Carmichael.
We're getting there.
Even Ms Bonnard shouldn't be able to spin her case out -beyond the end of today.
-Really?
Mr Costley won't be in the box, as they're pleading diminished.
So, uh, yeah.
The assault that the prosecution mentioned yesterday.
Do you know the details?
He attacked a man outside a restaurant who was chatting up his wife, I believe, broke his jaw.
The jury doesn't know that.
It won't have improved their opinion of him, though, hearing he has a conviction.
Hopefully, the defence psychiatrist Ms Bonnard calls will convince the jury that Mr Costley is mad, rather than bad.
Not that we're relying on his defence, you understand.
But it would help our case, wouldn't it?
Diminished responsibility.
Manslaughter.
It would help, certainly.
[woman] When I examined Mark Costley, he displayed very highly developed coping mechanisms, considering the situation he was in, the stress he was under.
"Coping".
Isn't that the sign of someone who's psychologically healthy, -Dr Sadiq?
-Not necessarily.
Very intelligent people with good support systems?
They can be what you could call high-functioning patients.
Their coping, in fact, masks more deep-seated symptoms.
Could you tell us, Dr Sadiq, how a personality disorder might be displayed in a patient... -[voices fade away] -[Mark] What did you think of me the first time you saw me?
Oh.
I thought, "I would."
[she laughs] -Well, you did.
-I did!
[laughter] So, was it just that, seriously, like, "I would"?
No, I just thought... you seemed to know what you were doing.
No, not like that.
Well, yes, like that.
But you seemed...
Right.
Sound.
Sound?
[Dr Sadiq] ...In Mr Costley's case, he dissociates, he detaches from real life and creates his own self-sustaining narrative.
Forgive me, Doctor, would put that in layperson's terms?
Sorry.
Patients like Mr Costley, they make themselves the hero of their own story.
Almost like they're in a film or a book, and they're watching themselves as the main character.
And to other people, this tendency to make up stories, could it make the sufferer seem merely a bit of a fantasist?
It could look like that on the outside, yes.
But would represent an abnormality of mental functioning, is that correct?
That is correct.
What happens, Dr Sadiq, when someone suffering from this type of disorder is put in an unusually stressful situation?
Well, if their sense of safety is challenged, by the loss of their stable environment, they decompensate.
"Decompensate", what does that mean?
Act oddly, if you like.
Disturbed behaviour, violent or self-destructive tendencies.
Violent, you say?
Yes.
They might lash out, lose control completely.
And in an altercation such as we can assume took place between George Selway and Mark Costley-- -Objection.
-Ms Bonnard!
My Lord.
To be clear, Doctor Sadiq, in a personality disordered individual such as the type you're describing, could an argument or a physical threat substantially impair their ability to keep a grip on what a reasonable response might be?
I think so, yes.
Right, so their abnormality of mental functioning would, in this situation, affect their ability to exercise self-control?
-Yes, it would.
-Returning to Mark Costley.
During your examination of him, what conclusions did you draw?
I was struck by his almost inappropriate ability to manage this very stressful situation he was in.
As though he'd found a different story to tell himself.
Added to the nature of the crime he's admitted to, his history of risky sexual encounters, even his attraction to the secret service, in my opinion, Mark Costley fits the profile of someone with a high-functioning personality disorder.
Thank you.
[Yvonne's barrister] No questions for the witness.
Dr Sadiq, this theory of yours, about so-called high-functioning personality disorders, am I correct in saying it formed the basis of your PhD thesis -at Kingston University?
-Yes, that's right.
So, would it be fair to say it's your pet theory?
It's certainly a theory I've done a great deal of work on.
It explains a lot, in my opinion.
Indeed, but isn't it the case that your theory is countered by the recognised diagnostic categorisation systems -used in psychiatry?
-I wouldn't say countered.
For instance, in the Biannual Study Papers of Mental Disorders, volume 24, March 2013, there is a specific refutation of your theory... in an article by Dr Michael Sedora, an expert in borderline personality disorders of some 22 years' standing.
It's page 72, My Lord, footnote five.
"See Sadiq, Kingston, High Functioning Personality Disorder and the Disguise of Pathological Trait Domains.
That is the name of your PhD thesis, Dr Sadiq?
Dr Sadiq?
Yes, that's right.
"I find no clinical evidence that the so-called high-functioning individual is able to disguise traits such as compulsivity or antagonism from family members or medical professionals."
They're missing the fundamental point of my thesis, which is that personality is not a binary concept but a spectrum.
"I discount entirely the existence of a high-functioning category separate from the definition of personality disorders."
There's a group of individuals like Mr Costley who have significant personality pathology which may fall short -of the current diagnosis-- -"Fall short".
Indeed.
No further questions, My Lord.
[Yvonne] Mad or bad?
Right now, the jury thinks you're as sane as I am.
They think you're a murderer.
[mouths] Yeah, OK.
I'll come down.
They were a bit worried because her waters had broken and nothing was happening, so they induced her and it was all fast and furious after that.
You did tell Carrie that they wouldn't let me call the hospital?
I'll give her all your love.
And Sathnam.
She, she knows you're thinking about her, love.
Oh, God.
I really wish I could have been there.
I know.
Oh, bloody hell.
Oh, aye.
Come on now, hm?
Home straight.
Just remember everything Robert's told you about making a good impression, and we'll get home and see that baby, yeah?
Yeah.
What are they going to call him?
I don't think they've decided yet.
I'm keen on Gary Junior.
[she chuckles] Von, I want to be there tomorrow.
-When you're questioned.
-But we agreed.
Yeah.
It's important, though.
I've been thinking and I'm so sorry about all the shite over Rosa.
No more secrets.
That's how all this happened in the first place, and I just...
I just wish you'd been able to trust me with it.
OK. [Yvonne] What about me?
What did you think the first time you saw me?
You were just so... so comfortable in your own world.
In that committee room.
Just owning it.
I loved that.
Can you give us some idea of the kind of work involved in appearing at a House of Commons Select Committee?
Well, it doesn't really involve any extra work, apart from turning up.
You're called to answer questions that cover your field.
[Robert] Your field being...?
[Yvonne] The human genome and genetic engineering.
[Robert] Hm.
It was at the last of these occasions that you met Mark Costley?
That's correct.
Can you tell me your impressions of him?
He was pleasant... er, knowledgeable, I liked him.
He gave me a guided tour of the Great Hall of Westminster.
The Crypt Chapel.
We met for coffee a few times.
-Did you meet purely as friends?
-Yes.
His niece was considering a career in science and my own daughter's a scientist.
So we talked about that and I gave him some advice.
Dr Carmichael, we now have to discuss the events that led, indirectly, to you being here, in a position you never would have imagined yourself to be in.
[dialogue dipped] ...It didn't seem real.
Although it was... the most, most shocking thing that's ever happened to me.
When it was over, he acted as if it was completely normal.
And I got in the cab with him because...
I didn't know what else to do.
[Robert] Some people will find it hard to understand why you didn't even tell your husband about this horrific, vicious attack.
I would have found it hard before it happened to me, to understand, I mean.
But it seemed so clear.
I didn't want what he did... in my life, in my home.
I didn't want to be sitting in my kitchen, having a meal with my husband and wonder... two years later, five years later, whatever.
Wonder if he was thinking about it, or... for him to raise it or talk about it when I wasn't ready.
I wasn't ready.
[sobbing] George Selway treated me as a collection of holes and... at least, by not telling Gary, I had control over that one thing.
What was your intention when you went to see Mark Costley to ask his advice about George Selway?
I just wanted it to stop.
Emailing me, texting, following me.
When George turned up near my house, I was just so frightened.
To be clear, did you wish George Selway physical harm?
No.
Did you encourage or urge Mr Mark Costley -to kill George Selway?
-No!
While you were waiting in the car, were you aware of what was taking place in George Selway's flat?
No.
[judge] I suggest, given the obvious distress of the witness, we'll adjourn for a short break.
[Bonnard] Dr Carmichael, I have no wish to distress you.
But could I ask you a few more questions about the night you claim you were attacked by the victim in this case?
Of course.
Earlier on that day, the day of the party, -you were working at home?
-Yes, that's right.
Then you got into your party dress and took the Tube into town, is that correct?
That's correct.
You've said you were at the party with Mr Selway for some hours, drinking with him, before you went with him up to his secluded office on the fifth floor, an area you knew would be empty at that time of night?
He mentioned something about getting papers from his office.
Yes.
Just to establish, when you were drinking and smoking with Mr Selway, you were for a time seated together outside in a courtyard in the middle of the building?
Yes.
I wasn't smoking.
You were keeping him company, then.
When you were seated together outside, can you recall placing your hand on Mr Selway's knee?
No, I can't.
Can you recall him placing his hand on your knee?
He may have done.
Yes, I think he did.
Just on my knee, to steady himself.
Er... We were all laughing, in a group, it wasn't just the two of us, and...
I was a bit unsteady and so was he and...
I put my hand on his knee, just to steady myself.
You put your hand on his knee?
Or he did on mine, he was filling up my glass.
It could have been both.
-You were flirting, weren't you?
-No, I wouldn't say that.
We were talking, joking, in a group of people.
Let's not get into a detailed discussion on the definition of flirting, Dr Carmichael.
Did you tell George Selway you were promiscuous?
No!
Absolutely not!
If anybody thinks they heard me say that, they're mistaken.
Or drunk.
There was a lot of drinking going on that night.
I'm not talking about the party.
Do you remember when you spent two days with George Selway, a month or so before he was killed?
When we interviewed for the junior research fellowship?
-Of course I remember.
-Good.
Then you might also remember telling George Selway in front of a roomful of people you were promiscuous.
No.
Absolutely not.
-I said no such thing.
-Really?
Did you or did you not describe yourself as "really easy"?
-That's ridiculous!
-So, you do remember?
"I like to pretend I'm classy, but I'm really easy."
I was talking about the coffee machine!
He'd bought us some coffees.
I'm not asking you for the context of the comment, I'm sure you were bantering away on all manner of subjects.
Answer the question.
"Really easy."
-Did you use that exact phrase?
-That is ludicrous!
You can take anything out of context-- -Yes, or no?
-You are trying to create a false impression of the kind of relationship that we had.
-Yes, or no?
-Not in the way that you mean!
[Yvonne] This is why!
This is why I didn't want to bring this to court in the first place!
[sniffs] It's not the only reason, is it, Dr Carmichael?
Why didn't you report the alleged rape by George Selway?
Often, these cases are conducted as if... the victim has committed a crime.
-I felt I'd been through enough.
-Well, this isn't a rape trial.
And you have been charged with a crime, the most serious crime there is.
Now, forgive me, you said it was eight years you worked for the Beaufort Institute?
Um... full time, yes.
-And more recently part time.
-Of course.
And during those eight years, you commuted every day?
Tube to St James's and then a walk?
Yes.
And lunch hours, coffee breaks.
Plenty of places to eat there.
-My Lord, really!
-[Bonnard] Forgive me, my Lord.
-I'm getting there.
-Then do, please, Ms Bonnard.
Dr Carmichael, in your professional capacity you have been working in or visiting the Borough of Westminster for, what, around 12 years, longer?
Um, longer, probably.
So, it's fair to say you are very familiar with the area?
What with all the commuting and lunch hours, walking and so on?
It...
Yes.
You know it intimately... this little corner of St James's.
The highways and byways, the shops and cafés... the side streets, the back alleyways?
You're familiar, Dr Carmichael, with a small alleyway called Apple Tree Yard?
Apple Tree Yard is the alleyway in the Borough of Westminster where you had intercourse with your lover, Mark Costley, in a public street, quite quickly I imagine, during rush hour, standing up in a doorway.
Isn't that the case, Dr Carmichael?
It...
It wasn't rush hour.
[Bonnard] I apologise for any inaccuracy as to timings, but you will forgive me for doubting the credibility of any account you're willing to give this court?
You know, are facing a charge of murder.
Don't you think it's time you started telling the truth?
You've lied haven't you?
You have lied to your husband and you've lied to the police and you have lied to this court, well, haven't you?
Yes.
I beg your pardon?
Yes.
Did you ask my client to kill George Selway?
No.
-Are you telling the truth?
-Yes.
Did you tell him you were raped, Dr Carmichael?
-I said...
Yes.
-And were you raped?
-Is that the truth?
-Yes!
Yes!
Yes!
As you went to the party that night... after you had had sex with my client... were you wearing underwear?
Please, at least tell me that the sex was good.
[chuckles] Why?
Why with someone like that?
He didn't seem the way he sounds in court.
He...
He made me feel... Gary wants to talk to you so much.
I can't.
No, no.
It would just finish me off.
But think about it.
Isn't it going to do more damage this way?
Damage?
Damage, Suze?
The damage is done.
You saw the jury's faces.
-I'm going to prison.
-You don't know that.
-Yes, I do.
-The trial isn't over yet.
Yes, it is.
It is.
It is for me.
The one thing that Gary's always said that he couldn't bear is humiliation.
If you were having this thing with Mark Costley, then surely... your marriage was over anyway.
Do you really think that it's that cut and dried?
God, Suze!
I'd expect that from Carrie, but you of-- -I am trying to understand.
-You should know that a marriage is not what it seems from the outside.
What Jay?
Well Jay's a bit different from Gary.
You've always held Gary up as some kind of shining star.
Because he is a good man!
Yes, he is.
When I started my degree...
I was going to dedicate my life to science.
And then... my first week of the first term, there he was.
So specific.
There in the lab being so bloody certain about everything.
With his shirt tucked in and his thousand-yard stare.
Thirty years, nearly.
Don't you think that's worth fighting for?
[door slams] [door slams, locks] [prosecutor] Ladies and gentlemen, the dramatic revelations of the last days have served only to strengthen the prosecution's case that it is beyond reasonable doubt that Mark Costley and Yvonne Carmichael are both guilty of the murder of George Selway.
Whose idea was it to drive to Selway's flat that day?
Yvonne Carmichael has admitted it was her idea.
Tragically, Mr Costley's already marked tendencies as a fantasist and his inability to tell the difference between reality and a story of his own invention found its flashpoint at that unbearable moment when he confronted the man he believed to have raped his lover.
Yvonne Carmichael had suffered a brutal and degrading rape at the hands of George Selway.
Who then added to this quite devastating trauma, by stalking her.
She just wanted it to stop.
There is no evidence that she wanted him dead.
There's no evidence that she asked for it.
Mark Costley was in his own world when he entered George Selway's flat, on a mission of his own making.
It comes down to this.
Does having an affair with Mark Costley, keeping it secret, make Dr Carmichael a murderer?
Not "does it make her unsavoury, inappropriate?"
Your private judgement is your own concern.
Does it make her a murderer?
[door unlocks] It's time.
[buzzer] [Yvonne] Courts aren't about the truth.
They're about who tells the best story.
You know all about that.
You're the expert.
You caught me so easily.
But then, I think now, I was waiting to be caught.
[door opens] [clerk] Madam foreperson, has the jury reached verdicts upon which you are all agreed?
Yes.
[clerk] Would the defendants please stand?
Do you find the defendant Mark Liam Costley guilty or not guilty of the murder of George Selway?
We find the defendant not guilty.
[clerk] Do you find the defendant Yvonne Carmichael guilty or not guilty of the murder of George Selway?
[foreperson] Not guilty.
[clerk] Upon count two of this indictment, do you find the defendant Mark Liam Costley guilty or not guilty of manslaughter?
Guilty.
[clerk] Do you find the defendant Yvonne Carmichael guilty or not guilty of manslaughter?
We find the defendant... -not guilty.
-[Suze sobs] [murmuring] [Jas] Congratulations.
Well done.
[buzzer] Thank you.
[birdsong] [Yvonne] Dear X. Dear Mark.
With good behaviour and the all-clear from your psychiatrit you'll be free in five years.
They found me guilty of perjur.
Suspended sentence.
Sounds about right, "suspended.
Hanging above me, a sword that could fall on my neck at any time.
And of course, my good behaviour has to last a lifetime.
When do you think Carrie will be ready to see me?
I think that's best discussed between you and her, don't you?
You can do no wrong in her eyes, you know that.
Yeah, well.
We're all on a learning curve, aren't we?
Gary... does she know about you and Rosa?
Nothing to tell any more, is there?
So, no point.
Surely it's only fair that she knows something about... what was going on with you, and us.
You really want to go there, do you?
Jesus Christ.
Fairness?
Transparency?
There were so many opportunities to tell me.
The rape.
Him.
-I would have understood.
-I know you would.
So why?
Because you had to win?
You had to be the best at everything, even marriage?
Could you just not bear the thought of not having something to hold against me for once, that we both might have fucked up, even-Stevens?
-Is that what you think?
-Yes, that's what I think!
I think you think I've been the bad one, that's how it's worked.
I'm sorry.
I am.
And I'll say it every day, for as long as it takes.
[drilling] Thank you for agreeing to see me.
Yvonne, in court... when I...
I told my barrister about us... she just twisted everything.
I'm so sorry.
I think I understand.
You panicked.
Is that what happened with George?
I know you didn't mean to kill him.
I just wanted to teach him a lesson, for you.
I wanted you to feel safe.
I lied to you.
Brilliant geneticist, one of the country's leading scientists I'm not.
I haven't produced an original piece of work for years.
I was never anybody important.
You made me feel important.
I don't know what you want me to say.
I'm sorry.
Mark?
[sighs] The feelings?
They were real.
Mine were, at least.
Mine too.
That's why I told her about us.
Because how else would anyone know?
How would they know?
That it had been real ?
It was just everything else that wasn't.
[Yvonne] If relationships are stories... there is no happy ending for ours.
But life, as they say, goes on.
[baby gurgling] [Mark] Yvonne.
[whispers] What you said to me in the flat.
The safe house.
I never told them.
I didn't.
[Mark] So, what do you want?
[Yvonne] I want you to kill him.
[both laugh] I want you to smash his fucking face in.
People can say anything.
You really can't tell the difference, can you?
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