Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E.Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation the Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.

We're just saying you're wrong, you're bad.

And I think that that's just not we need to be calling in, not calling out.

{MUSIC } Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe' Welcome to To the Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

This week- Women making movies a status report.

Joining us today is Pamala Buzick Kim, executive director of Free the Work, an organization dedicated to equality and diversity behind the camera Free The Work recently conducted its first international director census, offering real data in racial and gender biases in entertainment.

Thank you for joining us.

How are you?

-- I'm good.

I'm good.

Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it.

So overall, is this a good time for women directors and producers or are we stalled?

What's going on?

I think we're kind of one of those situations where it's like two steps forward, one step back, where we're constantly as much.

I think we can't let our foot up off the gas pedal.

So I think that there are some wins or some people might consider them victories and they are.

But I still think that there still needs to be a very focused a lot of energy push towards this particular topic and these particular needs.

Tell me about the census you did and and why a census?

Basically, what we're trying to relay is data, along with anecdotal stories, the census in particular for this round we did focused on TV commercials and the State of the Union for directors in that realm.

And this included some music videos as well.

We got over 400 responses globally and it was very important for us to say, Hey, this is what's going on with director's times.

This is how they're feeling the industry is going for them as well as being able to say and then here's the actual data.

Here are the numbers, because there's no one really monitoring a lot of what's happening perhaps behind the camera, not only from a data standpoint, but also from an anecdotal story standpoint.

So we found on average for television commercial directors, they are spending at least 33 hours on average of free time to build out these proposals and treatments to possibly get the commercial.

We also find that a majority of the time that underrepresented directors are not actually getting the job.

So when you're being asked to do free work over and over and it's taking you hours, days to get it done, and then you can't, it's not sustainable.

It's basically working for free.

And if you don't get awarded that TV commercial, then how are you going to pay your rent?

And that's why we don't see a lot of directors that are continuing to grow and become more established in the TV realm.

You were talking before we started taping about a producer, you know, who really, really made an incredible reach and hard work to find a cinematographer, female of color about what happened with all that.

Absolutely.

I think that this is kind of where we look at charity versus solidarity, and charity is kind of checking the box, saying that you did something, Hooray for women.

We awarded one woman a job.

We did it right.

And I think that the solidarity has to go much further.

And so it takes time.

When you look at Hollywood or Madison Avenue, it's all about time and money.

And so when you don't have enough time, then you're always going to go back to the same well over and over.

So you really have to make a concerted effort to try to find new talent to bring them in or create new relationships with talent.

And so this particular director showrunner essentially went out to do that and decided that they were going to interview as many women and women of color cinematographers for their show.

They interviewed 34, 34 cinematographers.

And these are the barriers that were kind of that were kept getting in the way.

One, either the cinematographer was already booked because they're really good at their job and they're already booked on something else.

And the timing didn't work.

Secondly, it was an 8 to 9 month shoot in another city.

That's not a major city per se, and that person would have to say, Yes, I'm going to move my family or be away from my family and my friends, etc.

all my other responsibilities to be able to go and do this show.

So that's very hard as well.

The third is that the studio has to approve it and the studio is going to look at kind of again, they're evaluating what they would say is risk.

So they're going to look at the name, look at the work and say, is this a solid person?

Is this going to make the show better?

I don't know.

But again, the studio exists, aren't always necessarily on the ground.

So they may be looking at the portfolio a little bit differently than somebody who's actually creating the work.

And then the fourth barrier is that the ones that maybe you could give a chance to, they're just too emerging in their career.

They don't have all of the all of the accolades, all of the shows behind them.

And so that also was kind of a factor.

So between those four factors, after interviewing 34 of them, you're still back at the beginning.

Well, you.

Just listed the four barriers for women trying to get big jobs on productions like cinematographer.

But does your census, are, women have got to be better off as producers and directors than, say, 20 years ago, right?

Absolutely, For sure.

More than 20 years ago, I would say even possibly, you know, before 2016, we're definitely in a better place.

But those and again, nothing is going to be solved overnight.

You can't solve, you know, gender bias overnight.

You can't solve racism overnight.

This is going to be a long journey.

And I think that we all acknowledge that and understand that.

But I think what needs to happen is we need to go beyond charity of saying, here's my DEI statement or here's the thing.

I gave that one woman a job, We're done.

We're good, right?

I think it has to happen on several different fronts.

We have to be able to say, look, we built in programing we have built in a process.

We start this early.

So all of those different things we need to go beyond just the the press per se, of that press release that you're going to have for your company.

Tell me about the impact of the MeToo movement in Hollywood.

I actually am pretty well acquainted with an agent out there, and he told me about six months ago it it's dead, nothing.

Things are still going on the way they were pre MeToo movement and that kind of I mean, there was such an eruption.

But of course you can't have, you know, the Harvey Weinstein's of the world.

You can't bring cases like that all the time.

It took that took the New York Times so long to get the information on him.

And then the Justice system based their investigations on everything found out by The New York Times, taking months and months and months and talking to so many producers, act actors, female actors who didn't want to talk for fear of losing their career.

Any time we see a media push from any outlets, we tend to see a little bit of movement because it's top of mind and it continues to make us remember that it should be top of mind and that we need to continue driving towards the specific wants and goals of equality.

And so I think when you see a big push like that, a big rush, that those are always good things because it's going to keep us top of mind.

Now when the media pressure or the media exposure dies down as like you're kind of explaining, then everyone kind of goes back to their old ways because we're dealing with very, very simple things that again, when you are up against a wall or you're trying to make the most successful thing, you're going to get the same players involved that you know, already have great track records.

The ones who have had great track records are the ones who had that opportunity early on in their careers and have become quite successful.

And that's great.

That's much a credit to them.

I'm not taking that away from them.

They deserve that.

They're all quite talented folks.

It's one of those things that's just very hard to get new folks into that cycle if we continue to go with the same old folks now, the same old folks, I know that a lot of them are trying to bring in new voices and bring in new faces to kind of help supplement their own companies and their own productions.

So hopefully we'll see the results of that in the next five years.

But I would say every single time the media outlets kind of pulls off the gas pedal of some of these subjects in these topics, we do see a dip because I do think at the end of the day, corporations, studios, agencies, brands, etc.

are paying attention to that because they do care, the consumers care.

They know the consumers care, and therefore, when the press continues to push for it, then we see more movement.

Reese Witherspoon, Regina King, Margot Robbie, Scarlett Johansson, Octavia Spencer, Jennifer Garner, Amy Adams, Kerry Washington.

And there are several more female actors who started their own production companies.

And then, of course, there are the two famous African-American women who were not actors but just built their names over decades and decades and who built up very successful production companies.

Why would any woman try to go the old boys route?

Why?

Why not?

I know young men getting out of, for example, NYU Film school.

And, you know, they may do one or two jobs to make, as, you know, assistant camera whatever or assistant producers But then they go out on their own and they start they start their own companies and they build their own businesses.

Why can't women and women of color do that?

Well, I.

Think all the women that you mentioned are doing it, including like Ava DuVernay and all of those folks, I think they are doing a great job because I think it's a little bit of a Trojan horse.

As much as maybe some folks would like to burn it all down and start over and make it more equitable from the beginning.

It's a very, very old system that's been in place.

So I think the best thing that some folks can do is actually say, you know what, I'm also going to create my own studio and production company.

I'm going to get the stories that I need that are going to fulfill not only my acting chops, but also kind of those of others that I can also give opportunity to.

And I think that they're going to come in and say, we've also got the Oscar winning pieces.

We've also got the huge consumer base.

And I think that there's nothing necessarily wrong with doing it in a traditional manner, just like it has been done, because I think a lot of those a lot of those women's women are coming from a much more considered strategic place versus like, I just want to make a great film.

They're like, I'm going to make a great film, but I'm also going to do it in a different as a different process within my own company because I can't change your company.

It's not happening.

And again, we would love to burn it all down and start over, but that's just not possible.

You know, capitalism, just the old ways of doing it.

So again, I think it's a Trojan horse kind of method of saying, Yeah, we've got a production company.

I'm successful enough at this point to open my own doors and behind my doors we're going to do it differently.

And are they doing it differently or I mean, the way you describe what happens to the men Ryan Murphy and to Steven Spielberg.

Well, of course, he owns his own.

He's big enough that he owns his own production company.

But yeah.

They also mean you're not going to bet against these folks.

They have highly successful careers and have earned their spots in the industry and they deserve to have those opportunities.

And I you know, look, I can't say what's happening behind closed doors of their production companies.

I would highly imagine.

I know Ryan Murphy has a program, an initiative out that helps get more voices into his companies and his shows.

I would imagine that Spielberg and Cameron may as well.

I don't know.

But I have to say I think it is top of mind.

But again, I think people may not understand the difference between charity versus solidarity.

Just getting somebody an interview or just getting them a PA job on set is just for the charity part.

It's going to be taken.

We're going to take it and we're going to get hired We're going to do the job and do an amazing job.

But the solidarity, too, is becomes what's the sponsorship, not just mentorship of hey I'm going to tell you how to do your job, but what's the sponsorship like?

Hey, you really killed it at that job.

I've been specifically paying attention and I'm going to personally help get you networked through and into the industry because that's how we've done it for each other in the past, and that's how men have done it for each other endlessly over and over and over, even though they may not have put that into a specific process per se, folks are getting more diverse hires, more women into different roles.

But I think is who's handling that sponsorship element who's saying, okay, we're going to help you elbow and network your way into this industry to the next place or get you connected to this amazing person that you're going to work with who's going to help facilitate and teach you even more new and complex things.

So I think it's kind of that guidance that we're sort of looking for that makes all the difference because just giving somebody a job, it's that's great.

It gets money in their money in their bank account, helps them pay rent, gets them a credit on their IMDB page or whatever it is.

But if they don't know how to traverse after that, in that moment or during that gig, they're not getting to the next rung on the ladder.

And I think that's the key differences and that's where the difference between just charity versus solidarity.

And I think that that's what the you know, that's what the host of the Golden Globes was saying in that opening monologue was why is he here?

Clearly obvious reason.

Is he going to take the gig?

Hell, yeah.

But like, what happens, you know.

But he had hell yeah after almost not.

Right because you like it's a consideration.

Like, what is this going to mean?

What is this going to do?

Is this going to lessen me?

Am I feeling otherized?

The guidance that he received in those conversations, on top of having that reality, of that acknowledgment and saying, okay, but what am I going to do with this?

What am I going to use my voice for if I'm going to be here as a prop or I got it for this particular reason, what I'm going to use my voice for?

How am I going to solidify my standing in this position?

And I want to talk about the Golden Globes as a run up, obviously, to the Oscars.

and I, I'm not usually an awards TV show watcher.

I'm not either .

-They take too long And anyway, Spielberg was flanked by five or six white guys, Ryan Murphy had you know, he had he had Billy Porter on the stage with him.

But he is he called out to mainly white males.

Now, they may or may not have been white gay males, I don't know.

But I'm just saying even though there was diversity in the audience, I saw a lot of a lot of white male faces up on the stage, which with, you know, I was really disappointed Spielberg, who for a long, long time, Kathleen Kennedy was his partner, partner producer.

And, you know, it's not like he hasn't had lots of women in, you know, along the way getting him to where he's gotten.

But it didn't show up when they were accepting the awards.

What gives?

Diversity goes much further than skin deep.

So I won't make any assumptions as to how anybody particularly identifies.

I can imagine from an outside point of view, the assumptions are exactly as you said, and maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

But well, what I will say again is, you know, you have when you're at that level, you have lots of different partners and on lots of different projects, you're probably running multiple projects at the time.

And so maybe he does have partners that are women on other projects that just didn't, particularly win in this occasion are still getting made.

But on this one that he did when again when you get into a rhythm and a pattern and this is where we've got to go deeper and further, you get to a rhythm and pattern.

Also, we don't know how those projects came about.

So they may those other folks that were on stage with that may have come to him with the idea or vice versa.

And so you're going again, it goes back to these networking circles.

It goes back to these folks that you've been in conversation with.

You know, you've been talking about, you know, growing up in the business.

So I think we have to see the turn is we are kind of we got to see that turn where those folks have been around for a really long time.

And again, it goes back to money and risk.

You're like, who's the best players?

Well, the best players are the people who've had the most opportunity.

So those are the folks that we still happen to be seeing right now.

I just hope behind closed doors or on other productions that all of those men that were on that stage are helping to facilitate and bring more solidarity and more networking and opportunity to other underrepresented voices behind them.

So that hopefully in the next award shows in one, two, three, four or five years, we're going to start to see much more diversity.

The human mind can only remember X amount of names and I'm hoping majority of those go to family and friends.

And so when you're looking at your business network, your your perspective is skewed because it's only so big.

And so I hope that we can get a DEI partner on films and on different shows and even TV commercials that someone's like, Hey, I imagine I'm your agent.

I'm your free agent and I'm your partner on this, and I want to help you make the best creative that you can.

And I want to bring in extra names and players or people that you're not familiar with and see how, how do you talk to them and make a relationship?

Because if it's not for this one, maybe it's for the next one.

Now let me turn.

I hate using cliches, but turn the tables around.

And here's another one.

And let me play devil's advocate.

(Pamala) Yeah.

Sometimes when you read mainstream media and watch TV news and listen to radio news and of course, read online, it seems like the whole it can seem like the whole entertainment industry is being aimed at and produced by and for people of color.

And I don't want to get any hate mail and I'm just turn remember, I don't either.

I'm deeply sensitive to the fact that women and people of color have been locked out of the conversation for (Pamala)Yeah.

(Bonnie)Throughout history until now.

I think that we've seen, I think between, you know, on the heels of the MeToo movement combined with the murder of George Floyd, I think that we're seeing a huge pendulum swing.

And I think for the center always gets re centered, right?

So I think that as the pendulum swings maybe too far in its particular direction, that even so far as like tokenism, that eventually we'll find a new center.

But we need it to but to be able to find that new center, we needed that pendulum to swing pretty hard.

And even when we find the new center, I think we're still going to be a bit disappointed as a woman and queer person.

So that being said, I think that that's sort of what's been going on.

And again, I think we've been shooting for this.

And I keep saying I hate to keep saying this, but I think we've been shooting for this charity element of we because we know that 70% of consumers care about brands that care about the climate, that care about racism, that care about gender, that care about age, all of those things.

And so we have this knee jerk reaction to just solve it.

Any marketing department, whether you're a marketing department of a studio or a brand, whatever small business, you're going to say like, Oh, what's the fastest way I can solve this and move on?

And I think that that's where we're starting to see that the it's falling, it the wheels falling off.

You know, there was even an article today that basically said how there's a huge backlash to DEI diversity, equity, inclusion.

If you say the word diversity in a room, people are like walking like, I've heard this a million times because I think we've made people feel bad.

And yes, I understand that some subjects are going to be uncomfortable and they should be uncomfortable.

And I'm going to say that I think that no one wants to be treated like a kindergartner and have a make wrong.

And so when we take it so far to make people feel like they're not educated enough or they don't know enough, or that their life experience doesn't matter, and this goes for anyone that we're kind of just doing additional damage.

And I think rather than saying, Hey, I need to take you for a walk along the beach and some people will say, we've done that, we've done that for years and we've not seen any progress.

So I think we need to find that.

We have to find the new medium, the new middle in that as well.

And what's the new center on that?

Because I do agree that when you just go in really strong, telling everybody that you're bad and you're wrong, that we're not going to get much result from that.

And we have not seen any article that you push out that says, you know, men suck, women are still at low numbers.

No one's going to read it because there was just that You saw it in the title.

I don't need to read it.

I've heard it a million times.

And what we're not doing is talking about different ways to move the needle forward.

We're just saying you're wrong, you're bad.

And I think that that's just not we need to be calling in, not calling out.

That's very that's extremely interesting.

And one more factor I want your response to is everybody's acting like this is a big new deal.

Like there hasn't been a movement to diversify media before.

And quite frankly, I got out of grad school in journalism in 1975, and there were there were diversity efforts going back, going (Bonnie) back (Pamala) Huge in the 70s years ago, 50 years ago.

So people who are who are on the wrong side of the color line or the L or the binary system, you know, can feel very much like this is not new.

This has been affecting me my whole life and is still going on.

And now it's just getting stronger.

So tell me your thoughts about that.

Yeah, I mean, I think the seventies was an important era for I think we saw a lot of good things for the civil rights movement in the Seventies and then we saw huge backlash to it as well at the end of the seventies and early eighties.

So I think what's very difficult in this situation is finding how we're going to reach people and how we're going to do that and what is the responsibility.

And I think that I would hope that most folks can say that there is a responsibility and then therefore there is an accountability.

So it's not more like, Oh, I hear I got it.

Can we just move on?

We can't move on.

We have to have a we have to have a process.

We have to have accountability.

And only through those things can we actually get further.

And I think that we do need these upticks in these upwards because it's like a boiling pot and like eventually it just boils over and we do need it and it because we do need it because people are not there's this whole thing about like self-regulation and like, oh, it's like self privatization.

Like there are oh, they'll, you know, they'll regulate themselves, they don't regulate themselves.

We've seen it over and over and over, this does not happen.

So how are the different ways that we can reach out and in collaboration, build a process that will help us?

We were leaving tons of money on the table.

We know that by reaching more underrepresented audiences, by showing more underrepresented folks on set that we know that those underrepresented people.

It's known that when you have more underrepresentation, more true representation behind the camera, you 100% of the time have more true representation in front of the camera.

And this is across any visual medium.

That is a fact.

And so it's not to say that you can't have somebody from the majority behind the camera.

It's the same with your more true representation behind the camera.

And that means that you've got folks from all different livelihoods and all different walks of life.

So it's not exclusionary, it's inclusive, and it's only meant to make your creative stronger, better.

It's only meant to make all of us think more and to be more considerate and also sponsor those who've not had the opportunity before.

Thank you so much, Pamala.

Pamala Buzick Kim thank you for your time.

Thank you for what you do.

That's it for this edition.

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