♪ (heroic music) ♪ ♪ ♪ - Hello, and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is artist Erik Gist.

Erik, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Thanks for having me, Terence.

- Now, Erik, you are best known for your work on covers, which is-- well, as they say, that's what sells the book.

So how does somebody go from being an aspiring painter to being entrusted with what literally is the first thing a customer is going to see when they go to buy a comic or a novel?

- I think everyone's journey is a little bit different.

But I'd say mostly, if it's what you want to do, it's perseverance.

Because it's a pretty competitive field.

I mean, it's what a lot of artists want to be doing, or at least in my opinion, it is, in my experience.

So really, it's kind of sticking with it and making sure that you just keep pushing and pushing and pushing until you get where you want to be.

Because it's pretty unusual for you to just walk into a portfolio review or an interview with your portfolio, no matter how good it is, and on your first try, getting offered top-tier cover work.

Sticking around long enough for people to finally give you a shot.

- You mentioned that perseverance.

I know that as a young creator, I was very precious about my work.

And if I heard criticism that I didn't like, I would be defensive, thinking it's more a criticism of me rather than the product and maybe someone giving me a direction that I could go into to tighten things up.

So as you were doing that portfolio review, it seems like you're having that success right away.

But how do you handle when someone's saying to you, this is good, but dot, dot, dot.

- There's a couple of things on that.

One, from my personal experience and what I've had to deal with, a lot of it is just realizing that it's not even necessarily a criticism of your work.

Although, it is that as well.

They're trying to help you get better because they want to hire good artists as well.

So they want as many good artists out there as they can find.

But it's also basically your intent versus their desire.

Your intent in creating the work may have been one thing, but what they need from the work is something different.

So it's not even always an objective criticism.

So learning to deal with that and say, oh, what they need from me is not what I'm offering them.

Not that my work isn't good, necessarily, but what they need from it, they're not seeing that there yet.

So sometimes it can be something more like that, what they need from the work.

Because they have a job too.

And their job is whatever it is, selling comic books.

And so they need something from the work.

And it might not be there yet, even though technically, you may have good anatomy, good composition, good storytelling, good color, good perspective.

All those things may be top notch, but it's not resulting in an end image that's going to help them sell more comic books.

The other thing is, what I used to always tell my students, is that when you do a portfolio review, introduce yourself, shake hands if it's appropriate.

Post-COVID era, it can be a little risky.

But introduce yourself, hand them your portfolio, ready to be viewed, and just keep your mouth shut.

Then you're going to avoid saying anything that is defensive or stupid.

Even if you're thinking it, you're going to eliminate that by just don't say anything, unless asked a direct question.

Let your work do the talking.

- That's interesting, because I think we're all always ready to say something.

I mean, as a creative, it's tough not to say, oh, you know what, that's not great.

And we always tend to point out the flaws and that sort of thing.

But by saying nothing at all, it's also very, I guess, risky, because you're always just going to wonder, should I say something here?

So your experience has been just to sort of let the art director give you the feedback and just thank them at the end.

- There's a couple things with that.

A, a good art director, at least a good interviewee art director, is going to fill the silence by asking you questions.

And then you answer the questions directly as best you can and let them move on.

But there's also, don't be afraid of that silence, because it's not a normal interview.

It's not like a job interview where they're assessing you necessarily as an individual, although that's going to be part of it as well.

But they're assessing your work.

And unlike most jobs, your work is right there in front of them.

And so you need to give them time to process what they're looking at and absorb the work and hopefully enjoy it, but make assessments about it.

And carrying on a conversation while they're doing that can actually be detrimental, because they're paying more attention to talking to you and making you comfortable than they are analyzing your work and looking for what they need out of it.

- And when someone is going to a portfolio review, let's say it's an aspiring comic artist and they're going to the convention, you're given just a few minutes of time with this editor.

Maybe they're signing books.

Maybe it's not a portfolio review in a formal setting.

So if somebody is willing to give you some time, again, you want to be respectful.

You want to be grateful.

But if somebody is clearly in a bad mood and giving you some bad advice, how do you roll that off your back?

- I haven't had that experience too often, to be honest.

Not that it hasn't happened, but even then, I don't think I've ever had a situation in a portfolio review where the person was just flat rude or dismissive.

Usually, if they were in a bad mood because it's a long weekend, who knows what else is going on, in their life.

They're usually, again, more quiet, which, again, can be uncomfortable.

But I've never had an art director in a portfolio review be rude, because it's their job.

And usually, the people that you're interviewing with, hopefully, ideally, are going to be top tier clients.

You want to be interviewing with Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Boom, and other fields for Blizzard or Wizards of the Coast or what have you.

And they send people that that is their job.

And so if they're showing up and they're being a jerk, they're not going to have that job very long, because it's a job requirement to be able to-- portfolio review is almost as much public relations as it is looking for new work.

It's not just hiring new artists, which, yeah, that's part of it.

But you also have to realize that you're dealing with fan base.

And so you're also networking.

And you want that person to then lead the portfolio review and say, yeah, I didn't get any work.

But man, the guy was really nice, really encouraging, or gal, whoever it was, whoever's giving the interview.

They're not just an art director that they threw into the fire.

They're generally trained to also be cordial and polite.

Or they're just someone who has-- like a salesman, has a good personality.

So yeah, I really haven't ever had a situation where I felt like someone giving a portfolio review was ever off-putting in any way.

Maybe quiet would be the worst, but never someone that was just overtly rude or off-putting.

- I want to ask about the tools that you are using.

I've taken a look at some of your work, and I'm sure some will be on the screen as we're talking.

And I'm just wondering, is this something where you're using acrylic or oil paint?

Or is this digital?

Is this watercolor?

And how do you sort of pick the medium that you're going to work with, depending on the client?

- Mostly oil.

The overwhelming majority of my work in the 98th percentile is oil painting.

And that's my favorite medium.

I like working oil paints.

I like working fairly large.

I like the malleability of it.

I like the improvisational aspect of it.

So mostly oils, and those are the reasons why.

I've done some covers in gouache, which I like for all the same reasons.

And sometimes I just want to mix it up, or maybe I need to turn something around very, very quickly, and the quick-drying nature of gouache allows for that.

I've done some digital covers, and for the same reason, I get behind on deadlines.

I need to get something done.

And I can work on that stuff while I'm sitting on the couch with my wife at night, working, watching TV, or having dinner, or something like that.

I can still get some work done, because I would much rather do that than have her be alone down on the sofa watching TV, and I'm up in the studio at 11 o'clock at night.

And that's no fun and not very good for your marriage.

So at least I'm down there next to her while I'm working and getting some stuff done.

But even that doesn't happen too often.

Like I said, about 98% of my work is done in oils.

- For some artists, we, I guess, have the stereotype of the artist getting up at noon and working till the wee hours, and then downing a bottle of wine at the cafe while flute music plays, let's say.

So what's your day like, and how do you schedule it to make sure that if you're working at home, people know that this is my job.

It's not me goofing off at home watching "The Family Feud" or something.

- My day, usually 6 o'clock in the morning, I get up.

If it's every other day, then I go and get some sort of exercise in, whether it's going for a run or doing some exercises or what have you.

But a half hour, 40 minutes of exercise or a workout, and I do that about every other day.

Then I'll get cleaned up, have breakfast.

And I'm usually working-- I try to be in the studio by 8 o'clock, but it's not unusual for it to end up being 8:30, 9 o'clock before I actually sit down and start working.

So I'll sit down.

I'll do that.

And then once I get working, then I usually work through to about 12, 12:30.

We break for lunch, and then back to work about 1:30, 2 o'clock.

And then it's working through till about 7 o'clock at night.

So I try to keep those fairly regular work hours as much as I can.

As far as people understanding that those are my work hours, most people don't.

And I don't even bother trying to explain to them.

So either I don't respond to messages until I am off the clock, or I have headphones that I can put on and I can talk to people on the phone while I paint, so things like that.

Most people-- most of my friends are artists as well.

So it's really not that much of an issue.

But you find ways around it so you're still getting work done while you're chatting with whoever it is that you're chatting with.

Or like I said, put it off until you've got time.

Thankfully, in the age of texting, you don't get a lot of phone call, phone calls.

So quick text, no big deal.

Quick email, no big deal.

- You are talking about this modern era where you're doing different things.

Technology has certainly made things interesting.

You are on the West Coast.

There's a lot of business that's done on the East Coast.

So getting up early in the morning, is that part of that strategy?

I know that in television, a lot of the executives on the West Coast get up early so they can get the news as it rolls in from the East Coast in terms of ratings or something like that.

Do you adjust your schedule a little bit to accommodate the folks who are working in New York who might be looking for that cover?

- It's definitely a factor.

It's why specifically I get up as close to 6 as I can, so at least I can get up when they're getting to work, which is about 9 o'clock, and look for any emails or anything that's time sensitive that I can deal with.

So yeah, that's certainly a factor.

I also like daylight.

So I've never really understood getting up at-- even though I used to do it when I was younger, but that was for other reasons.

I don't really like getting up at 9 o'clock when the sun's already been up for two or three hours, and then staying up late when the sun's been down for three, four, or five hours.

That doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

Like I said, I used to do it because my first job was working in a restaurant.

And I was frequently not off work until 10:30, 11 o'clock.

And then later on, I taught art classes, and our third class of the day ran from 7 to 10.

So I wouldn't get home till about 11 o'clock.

And then it takes you time to wind down and get to sleep.

So I used to do that, but it was more a result of my work schedule and just the schedule that was sort of forced upon me.

But now that I can make my own schedule, I'm usually up about 6.

And yeah, certainly working with East Coast clients like Marvel, it's a factor.

I wouldn't-- I don't know if I'd say it's the main factor, but it's a factor for sure.

- For Marvel, you've done superhero covers, and you've done licensed covers.

And I'm just wondering, as you were doing, let's say, a Captain America cover versus, let's say, a cover for a Star Wars story where the faces are recognizable, how do you sort of make sure that you are able to do something that is dynamic, but also looks the way the audience for a licensed book is going to expect those characters to look?

- It's a challenge for sure.

My main approach to it is to come up with my idea first without really thinking about too much how I'm going to do it.

And then once I have the idea and it's accepted, the sketch is accepted, then I'll actually start combing through the movies.

If that's-- you mentioned Star Wars specifically, I'll comb through the movies and look for a couple of different reference shots, one that matches the angle that I want, one that matches the lighting that I want, one that might match an expression.

And then I'll do my sketch by sort of amalgamating those-- all those factors into one sketch, and hopefully I capture the likeness.

I think I'm pretty good at that, which is why I do get a lot of that type of work.

But that's generally my approach.

Sometimes I'm lucky enough that I find a piece of reference that just fits, and I can use that piece of reference.

But usually it's a matter of combining one piece of reference for the angle, one piece of reference for the lighting, one piece of reference for any kind of expression that I might want.

And then I'll also shoot myself or another model in the exact pose.

And then I'll kind of amalgamate everything into one image that hopefully achieves the effect that both the client and I want.

- You're talking about going through a film to find the right expression or the right angle.

I found in my side of television production, if I'm working for a client and I've got to pick a piece of production music, let's say for a commercial, I'm going to spend-- you know, I'm giving myself this much time because as a freelancer, if I'm not done with the project, I'm wasting time.

I've got to get this project done because I've agreed to this much money.

And the longer I spend on it, the less money per hour it is, and the less new projects I can take on.

Do you sort of limit the amount of time you're going to spend looking for that reference?

Or do you say, well, it's all part of the process, and this just has to be done?

- Yeah, I try to limit it as much as I can.

But it doesn't always fall to plan.

And I'm sure you've encountered the same thing where as much as you give yourself a certain amount of time, if you don't find what you need in that amount of time, well, then you need to find that time somewhere else and talk to the client and say, hey, this is going to be a day or two late.

Is that OK?

Is this a hard deadline?

And then if it's not a hard deadline, then you take the extra day or two and you find the time for yourself elsewhere, getting up a little bit earlier, staying up a little bit later, whatever it is, wherever you can find that time.

Like everything in life, there's so many things that we need to get done in a day.

And if you're taking from one thing to do another, then you need to find something.

Maybe you skip lunch to get another hour's worth of work in.

Or you get up an hour earlier, or you stay up an hour later.

Or whatever it is, you can always find time.

None of us have our schedule completely stripped down to the bare bones.

So when you need to find time, you can find it.

- You mentioned earlier that you work large, or relatively large.

So I'm wondering, if you're working on a comic cover, I think the standard page size is 10 by 17-- pardon me, 10 by 15.

So are you working larger than that?

Or is that the rough size that you're working?

- My standard comic covers are 16 by 24, sometimes a little bit smaller than that.

But my most common size is 16 by 24.

- Is this something where you're able to just kind of scale up that size so that you know that when it's shot down, it will reproduce correctly?

- I went to college back in the '90s.

So I learned all the physical tools.

But now what I'll do is I'll just scan in whatever the style.

I'll create a file in Photoshop that is whatever the end print size is.

And then I'll just leave on the scaling and adjust this one side to the size that I want.

And it tells me what the other size is.

Basically, a newfangled proportion scale.

- And I guess the other question is, in addition to doing comic book covers, you also do covers for paperbacks and novels.

So that's got to be a different sort of technique as well.

So is this, again, you're working larger, but the aspect ratio is going to change at that point?

- Right.

Well, depending on what kind of paperback you're working on.

Because I think trade paperbacks, that scale, I think, is almost the same as the ratio on a comic book cover for some reason.

They're a little bit bigger, and the aspect ratio is the same.

But yeah, your standard paperbacks, it's a little bit different.

Hardbacks are a little bit different.

So yeah, then I just-- usually the client-- not usually.

Always the client will tell you what the end product, what size it needs to be.

Like so many pixels by so many pixels is usually how it's given now.

Sometimes it'll be so many inches by so many inches at 300 DPI, or whatever it is.

But they'll send you the stats, and then you just work to your comfort.

So yeah, usually the client will give you what they need in the end.

And then I need to figure out how to do what I do and get them the correctly proportioned file in the end.

- And if you're dealing with the cover of a comic, I know in the old days, the cover would reflect the story.

It might not be the same way now.

But certainly for a novel, there's got to be something that's connected to the events within.

So how much information are you given to inform what you're going to put together so that way it is in the best-- I guess best serves the client?

- So it varies wildly.

And even from the time that I started, covers have become less story driven over time, especially in book covers.

Book covers, we've all been to bookstores and looked through the covers.

And there's like five templates that the overwhelming majority of covers fit into.

Comics-- so let's stick with book covers still.

I've gotten everything from just a brief description of what they want to be able to sell the book all the way up to a full manuscript.

I've gotten that and everything in between.

And then for comic covers, it will depend on the nature of the cover.

So in comics, collectability is a huge part of the industry now.

And so they'll have collectible variant covers, and the A covers, and the B covers, covers that are all meant to serve different purposes.

And often with a variant cover, it's much less story driven.

In fact, I've gotten descriptions of, hey, do you want to do a Hulk cover?

And I'll go, I'd love to do a Hulk cover.

What's it about?

And they'll go, like, doesn't matter.

Just give us a cool image of the Hulk.

That's the description.

That's the job.

And then other times, if you're the A cover artist, meaning you do the regular covers for a comic book, you're the series regular, then it tends to be more story driven.

And they want specific things.

And again, you might get everything from a brief description of a scene from that particular book all the way up to the full script from the actual writer.

I've even been put in contact with the writer before and ran things by them.

And things that I've suggested have actually ended up in the novel or in the comic books.

As we were talking, it's like, well, what if I do this?

Like, oh, that's a really good idea.

I'll even write that in.

That doesn't happen too often, but it has happened.

So yeah, it varies.

There's a range depending on the client and what their marketing approach is and the specific needs of that cover.

Is it meant to just, my name, sell some extra copies of the comic book?

Or is it meant to actually represent what's in the comic?

So end result dictates a lot of that.

But yeah, basically everything from make a cool Hulk cover to, hey, here's the full script from the comic and everything in between.

- And you're talking-- we'll go back a little bit to your technique.

You said that you do some digital work, about 2% of your work.

So as someone who is used to working with real paint, where you can feel it move along the canvas or the illustration board, to somebody who's pushing pixels around, how do you sort of adapt?

Because I've dabbled a little bit, and I find that it's not the same as trying to work on paper.

So how do you sort of get the right feel for what you want and get the end result the way you want it, even though it's a completely different, although supposedly similar, process?

- So I would say, just to throw a number out there, a ballpark number, I would say 80% it's the same thing.

It all comes down to drawing.

And whether you're drawing with pixels, or drawing with oil paint, or drawing with charcoal, or drawing with whatever, it's just figuring out how to make that particular medium make a certain edge, make a certain shape, make a certain value, make a certain color, and then getting what you want out of it.

And 80% of that is the same.

The last 20% is trying to trick the computer into giving you an effect that you want.

Whereas an oil paint, it's pretty intuitive to me.

Hey, I want the paint to look like this, so I know I can do this, and it will look like that.

And in a digital medium, a lot of it's fake.

You're trying to create the illusion of that texture, because that texture doesn't actually exist.

Whereas in real life, if I apply the paint more thickly, it has a certain textural quality to it.

If I apply it thinly, it has a different textural quality.

If I work on this surface, it has a different textural quality.

If I use this brush, it just does it inherently, just by the nature of the actual real world materials you're working with.

It creates certain effects.

And then when you work digitally, you have to figure out ways to trick the computer into making it look that way.

It's a little bit like playing a video game.

We all know how to run and jump and crawl, and you don't even really think that much about it.

You just know what you have to do, and you think it, and your body does it by virtue of living in the real world.

And the environment that you're in and the actions that you take are dictated by real world physics.

But when you play a video game, you hit a button and it jumps.

So you're learning what input that video game is looking for to achieve the action that you wish to achieve.

It's very similar to that.

So your brain kind of still knows what it wants to do, and it just has to figure out how to communicate that to a computer.

And that's the last 20%.

And I like to try to make my digital stuff look as much like my real paintings as I can.

So I learn what tricks to do to achieve those effects.

And after a while, even that becomes semi-intuitive.

- You know, there's so many different softwares out there that you can get comfortable with one, but then you can try another one.

It's not quite the same, or you've got to learn the trick.

Or it could be something where they just update the interface and things don't work as much.

So we have just a few minutes left in our conversation.

As somebody who is a professional artist, are you diving in when there's that new update that is going to challenge you?

Or is it something like, well, I'm going to hold back on the legacy for as long as I can, because deadlines are deadlines?

- I don't like updating, period, because they often break as many things as they fix.

And my usage of the tools, like I said, because I basically paint like a painter, I don't really need new tools.

I don't need new tricks, new filters.

Not that I have-- there's nothing wrong with that stuff.

But if you're a more expressive digital artist, where you like to experiment with all the new features, that's great.

It's just not me.

Like I said, I paint like a painter.

So I just need some sort of a surface, some sort of an input device, and my hand and my brain.

And it doesn't really-- I don't need to use glow filters or different techniques or different things.

It's just not part of my process.

Although I do like it when I see it in other artists' work, it's just not part of my process.

- Erik, they are telling us that we are just about out of time.

If the folks watching wanted to find out more about you, where can they find you on the web?

- There's my website.

That's a decent place when I update it, which I haven't in a bit, but I need to.

And that's just my name, Erikgist.com, E-R-I-K-G-I-S-T dot com.

Or you can find me on Instagram at @emgist.

I'm not sure exactly how it is, but if you put in emgist, you'll find me.

And then I also post on Facebook fairly regularly.

But Instagram is probably-- for social media, it's probably the place where I post and interact the most.

- Well, Erik, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

It's been a fun half hour.

- All right, thank you.

- I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching Comic Culture.

We will see you again soon.

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