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1970 sitcom star and actor, Ernest Lee Thomas on this edition of Conversations.

(opening theme music) Say what you will about the 1970s but for those of us who are of a certain age, one thing is a memorable, sitcoms on television.

One of those sitcoms that still makes you chuckle as you think back, is "What's Happening!!"

Ernest Lee Thomas played the role of Raj, alongside his buddies Rerun and Dwayne.

Add in little sister Dee and waitress Shirley and well there, you have it.

A half hour of lighthearted, silly fun television.

Thomas began his career on Broadway before heading to Hollywood.

In recent years, he's appeared on television shows like "Everybody Hates Chris", "In The Heat Of The Night", and he's also logged in a handful of films.

We welcome Ernest Lee Thomas to Conversations.

Thank you for joining us.

- Thank you, Jeff, man.

That was great.

- Well, thank you, thank you.

Appreciate that.

Tell me about, tell me how you got in the acting business.

- Well, I was a late bloomer, my friend, Jake Smith, he's in Gary, Indiana now.

He's married with children.

But he never wanted anything from me, but, cause I wanted him to become my manager.

But in college, I would do silly things to make him laugh.

And he was my fraternity brother's older brother but we became even closer.

Cause I think he knew I needed a father figure and so he became that.

And so I would imitate people on television or I put a pillow in my shirt and be pregnant.

And just any and everything to make him laugh.

And so he said, "you're an actor."

He said, "Ernie, man, you can do whatever they do.

Those actors on TV or movies, man."

I said, "no, no, no, I'm going to be a social worker."

You know, he said, "Ernie, I'm telling you, you can."

So he said, at least just take a class.

And so I took a class, I got an A in that class and the teacher, I remember he was a red hair, he had this bright red hair.

And after, he met with me afterwards he says, you know, you could do this for a living.

I said, no, no, I couldn't.

I'm going to be a social worker.

You know, I said, my friend thinks that, but no that's so far removed.

Plus I'm Church of God and Christ, Pentecostal and that's a sin, you know, it's secular and all that in a way.

So Jake kept on me though, he kept on me.

And then he said, well there was an audition for Romeo and Juliet.

And I had seen the play, the movie, Zeffirelli's, which that was great.

My favorite one.

And so I just, I auditioned and just imitated the prince in there, Prince Escalus.

And all these actor students, all these kids who have major majored in acting.

But I just went in, I was nervous, but I just jumped on stage and did it.

And they were telling me that the guy, the director was racist, that he would not, you know, he wouldn't want me in there.

And so after I did it, he says, "okay, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd like to see that one more time."

So you know, the guy they called the racist, was like loving what I did.

And then he hired me and we did it and we traveled all over Indiana, did various high schools, I was signing autographs.

- The bug had bitten you.

- Yeah, but still it was like I know I can't, this can't be though a job.

It can't be a life thing because I got to be a social worker.

Cause I love my social workers and it's closer to what, as a Pentecostal, being saved and sanctified, they're not going to approve that.

And so Jake stayed on me again and then there was an audition for the American Academy, which is, you know, the oldest English speaking school in the world.

And that's where Robert Redford, you name it, Danny DeVito, Spencer Tracy.

It's just a who's who?

And he wanted me to audition for that and they had a local, I was at Indiana State University, which is in Terre Haute, Indiana, But they were going to have regional auditions in Chicago.

And Jake drove me in a little Volkswagen, he believed in this so much that he wanted me to audition.

I'm looking at the list of people, so I'm going, I'm with him.

But once we get there, I'm really freaking out.

I said, "Jake, did you look at the list of people?

They're not gonna take me, man."

They got Spencer Tracy, Robert Redford.

It was just a, you know, who's.

So Jake told me that he would kick my rear.

Wasn't that worried, here's another worry.

And I'd never seen him like that.

I mean, he had a look and they did fear him.

He was a guy that was, he didn't bother anybody but no one messed with Jake cause he didn't have time for foolishness.

So that's why people were even shocked that he took time to mentor me.

Cause he was just like a loner.

- Why do you think did that?

What did he see in you?

- I think God put it on him because of my faith.

I just believe that God, he showed him what I couldn't see.

Cause I did not see that Jeff, I never ever wanted to be an actor, man.

Never, ever.

And cause his wife hated my guts by the way.

Oh she was, "oh God, funny?

He don't do nothing for me."

So, I'm dealing with that part too.

And so Jeff, I mean, sorry Jeff, Jake gives me that look, man, and Jake looks, he looks Chinese because he's black and Indian but people thought he was Chinese, half Chinese, half Asian.

And he was like that, like he could karate chop me or something.

It was really scary.

And I had never seen him look like that.

He said "Ernie get in there or we're going to have a problem."

So I go, and he says on top of that, he went and got some Schlitz Malt Liquor.

He says, and when you come, we're going to celebrate, I'm going to get this malt liquor.

And he brought it, "now I got it right here.

Once you come down and get accepted, we're going to drink.

We're going to toast."

So I go in because Jake is believing that.

So I'm going to go in and I do have faith in God.

So I said, Lord, you know, lead me as I go up in here, Lord, I'm going to do it.

And Charles Raison was the executive director of the American Academy.

So it wasn't just like a local, this is a big wig that's actually doing it.

And so I did a scene, I did that same audition that I did for Romeo and Juliet.

And then I took from the acting class, I had done, uh, I had done a scene, oh God, what was the other one?

Oh God, I can't think of that.

But it was bits and pieces of different ones.

So I just kind of, it didn't make sense, but I just tried to make it.

I knew the Romeo and Juliet, that was definite.

Then I just took pieces of dialogue and tied them together as a monologue, from different established plays that I had done in the classroom, that the teacher liked.

And so I got up there and jumped on a chair because the prince come in on a horse, right?

And so I jumped and the guys looking at me and I'm doing the whole thing.

And then I do the more quieter dialogues and monologues that I had to have prepared.

Death Of A Salesman, that's the one I was talking about, Death Of A Salesman.

And Hamlet.

And so he says, welcome to the American Academy.

- Wow.

- That simple.

All that sweat, all that... (stuttering) - Just, off you go.

Now, and when did you get to Broadway?

- Broadway, after going to American Academy, it was right after that.

- Okay.

- I was really blessed, man.

I mean, right after that.

Of course, you know, the church is saying, we're going to hell.

But I just figured God put this on me and I said, I know this has to be God, there ain't nothing bad about it, I'm making people happy.

And so 1974, Hal Prince, who did Phantom Of The Opera, Evita.

I was blessed to get two roles at the same time that would be, you know, I would be starring in them at different times.

So I got Hal Prince, Member Of The Wedding, and then Tony Perkins from Psycho, he was directing for the first time, it was a new play and it was a gang member and they said I had such a baby face, they just didn't see it.

And I was like just give me a chance.

And then I worked on it and I believe God gave me this monologue.

At five o'clock in the morning, I had one of those old tape recorders, and it just came, the words just came.

And I became that.

It was kind of like an outer body experience.

So I went back with that piece and I lied and said it was from a play, a new playwright, which wasn't true.

And I got hired.

So I got two.

And then Arlene Francis, you might be a little young but Arlene Francis, to tell the truth, I know some of the crew members, they know who she is.

We're the same age group.

Don't try it.

So she was a star.

And we did it at Falmouth Playhouse called Don't Call Back.

And I'm this, I'm angry, I'm choking this lady, a white lady on top of that.

This is in 74.

And the audience is like booing me and all that.

So I'm thinking that they don't like the performance.

I know that that means that's a good thing.

And I got a standing ovation with every performance.

And then they nicknamed me The Bravo Kid.

One of the actors nicknamed me The Bravo Kid.

And so all these women with their fur coats and the diamonds were taking me out and saying, you're gonna be this big star.

And the newspapers were saying the way I walked on stage like a black panther and they were describing...

I got to get a copy of those reviews.

It was just incredible, Jeff.

And then to go to Hal, Member Of The Wedding.

We toured with that for a year.

And Glenn close was in there.

Glenn Close was in there with me.

And Glenn had a smaller role.

And again, Kathleen Carroll, Daily News, you know, giving me...

But it caused, a lot of haters came from that.

- [Jeff] I'm sure.

- Even my best friend became the hater.

- [Jeff] Jealousy.

- And I didn't see that coming.

Not from him.

You know, he actually came to see me in one of the plays.

And he said, and he came with his wife, we're in the green room and I'm thinking, he's gonna, you know, I got the review, Kathleen Carroll.

"Yeah.

I just don't see this for you, man."

And it really threw me, you know.

Then I realized that I had fallen in love with acting because normally I'm the person who is kumbaya.

You know, my mother said, I'm too nice, but it changed because I had fallen in love with this acting.

I looked at him and I said, take it back.

And he said, what?

I said, no, no, no.

"This I want you, either take it back, I don't want any discussion, you take it back, what you just said or you and your wife can leave and lose my number."

And he shocked cause they never saw this Ernest before.

And so he says, he's sorry.

And I talked to a lot, I talk to a lot of kids at universities and I tell them that I still excommunicated him.

And I said, the reason being, when someone says they're sorry, you still got to ask God for the sermon, is that sorry sincere?

Are they just trying to come back so they can do more damage?

So I didn't believe that, I knew that that wasn't sincere.

So I told him I received it.

But from then on, I was too busy.

And I said, that's what you just tell people, I'm just busy, God has me on a mission and when he's done with me, I'll get back with you.

- Interesting.

Tell me about your Hollywood.

So you'll leave Broadway, head to LA and start some television shows, The Jeffersons initially?

- Yeah, yeah, The Jeffersons.

And I love that show, man.

That was my first sitcom.

I had to take the bus or the first time I took the bus.

But Isabel Sanford who played Weezy, she says, no, no, no, I'm picking you up every day for that week.

And she did, everyday for that week, she picked me up.

And the first day kind of threw me cause everybody was friendly, but Sherman Hemsley, he wouldn't shake my hand.

And they went, oh, Sherman, just ignore him.

They said Sherman, this is Ernest Thomas, you know?

And he's like, "so what?"

And I went, oh.

- So he really was George Jefferson.

- I'm like, okay.

And then all week I'm trying to impress him, like give a compliment and nothing.

But the day of, the audience loved me.

The audience laughed at everything that they should have.

And that's when he was impressed.

So the guy says, "and our guest star Ernest Thompson."

And Sherman ran out, "no, no, no.

His name is Ernest Thomas.

And he's going to be a big star."

I'm like, what the hell?

What the hell just happened?

And so he tells me, he says, "I'm telling you you're going to have your own show."

He says, "but you gotta be careful because of your niceness, a lot of people are gonna enter into your life and leeches, energy vampires."

And I didn't listen to him because I allowed all the people in.

Anyone, everyone could come to my place and they were exactly that.

- Took advantage of you?

- Yeah.

- What was it like on that show, "What's Happening!!"?

Because I told several people I was going to interview you and we all remember that, from that era.

I mean, it was the 1970s and you didn't have a plethora of cable channels or internet or Netflix or any of that sort of stuff.

So, I mean, the ratings were huge.

What was it like in that time?

- Brother, Jeff, the best way to describe it is heaven on earth.

Because you know, I'm looking at it from Gary, Indiana, Dorie Miller Projects.

I've seen my mother getting beaten by the boyfriends and the step-fathers and all that.

Bullied at school by my own people.

So I'm dealing with an all black grade school where they, you know, because I am thin and I am on welfare and I don't have the father, you know, I never met my father.

So they're calling me nappy headed, monkey, ugly, right?

And because I was smart on top of that, the teacher's pet, the teacher's loved me.

That didn't endear me to them at all.

And then when I go to the south during the summer, I got to deal with the whites and going to the back of the restaurant and saying, "yes sir" to little white boys, little white boys, little white girls.

Because my mother said, showed me a photo of Emmett Till and said, "this will happen to you."

So even when you go to the south, even if it's a white child say, yes sir, and yes ma'am.

So you got to be dealing with that.

And just by the fact that I was in Pentecostal church, that Jesus was my everything, there's no way I would've made it without having that faith in something bigger, the creator of all, that God got me, I'm his child, you know.

So I'm dealing with all of that.

So to get "What's Happening!!

", where now everyone in the nation knows you, you got a top 10 show.

And then people you admire like Muhammad Ali and Oprah Winfrey and Sidney Poitier, he asked me to be in A Piece Of The Action, to be in his movie with him.

Burt Reynolds, Lucille Ball, she cried, I told her how much she meant to me.

John Wayne and oh God, James Stewart I met.

Ginger Rogers, Danny Thomas, Bob Hope.

And I'm sure I probably got on their nerves because I was such a fan.

And it wasn't quite, the only thing I tell the young kids is it was heaven on earth, but also it was that undercurrent of hell, because it's like how can life be this good?

Something tragic has to happen.

So I have made up in my mind, right, that yeah, okay, I'm going to die because I asked God for this show, I got it beyond my imagination and the top 10 and all of these people that love you, Dr. Maya Angelou befriended me and took me to 20th Century Fox, tried to get my movie done.

So I'm like, oh yeah, I'm definitely gonna die.

So I tell them, enjoy the journey.

So when they had Ernest Thomas there in Gary, Indiana and they had all the Jesse Jackson and Coretta Scott King and the people weren't interested in that, they had this big parade.

They literally, when they brought me, after the parade and brought me to the podium where Mayor Hatcher was going to introduce me, they bum-rushed to stage.

And you know, you have men say, "touch my child, touch my wife."

It was like that.

And so they rushed me in the limousine because it was that.

And they didn't listen to Mayor Hatcher at all.

So I said, oh yeah, any minute now someone's going to come out with a gun, I'm thinking, and shoot me right now.

So all that was going on in my head and someone had made a bust of my head, a guy, of when I was on the top of the podium and that scared me, I went, oh yeah, I'm dead.

I'm definitely dead.

Oh, this is it.

And I said, oh Lord, let me go easy, as soon as it hit, let me just die.

Don't let me suffer.

So, it was heaven on earth and that was the best part.

But then there was that other part.

I'm enjoying the journey now more.

Much more now.

- Now that you can look back.

Well, I mean, I would imagine it would be hard for a lot of people to really realize and take in.

I mean, here you are talking about growing up in the projects and going through all this and now you're in Hollywood, California and the whole nation knows your name.

- [Ernest] Yeah.

- And again, I can't stress enough what it was like in the seventies like that, because if you were on a major network television show, that was huge.

It wasn't spliced and dice like it is today.

- No, they didn't have their NBC, ABC, CBS, right?

- And PBS.

- And PBS.

And it was a good time, it was a great time for, you know, the seventies, the music was great.

It seemed like people were healing, race relations, people just trying to understand each other Of course, "What's Happening!!

", is a black show but it had to go in front of a testing audience of whites.

So they had to love that show.

They knew that show would reach everyone and it has over the past 45 years, this is our 45th year.

It has, I know people who said they were outright racist and their family are gone, they're channel surfing, and they see the show and they decide to just out of curiosity, and they're laughing, but then, "oh wait a minute, I'm supposed to."

And it slowly chips away at that, you know.

And so I think it did a lot for race relations.

And I think everyone can identify with having a friend, you know, the friend, the camaraderie as teenagers.

- [Jeff] Right, right.

And then fast forward to Chris Rock, who grew up on this show, he created that role of Mr. Omar for me, because he grew up on this show.

And I wanted to bring a copy of that book, man.

I had a senior moment, I said, I want this for Jeff, left it in the hotel room.

Because Chris Rock says, when he saw me, he gives me a quote for the book, he knew anything was possible.

- Tell me a little bit about the book because you have written a book, "From Raj To Riches."

- Yes, I have.

- And I've got about five minutes.

- See I told you, motor mouth.

- That's okay.

- I told you Jeff.

Stop me.

- [Jeff] That's what the show's all about, conversations.

- All right, five minutes, okay.

- Probably four.

- It's really a testimony of faith.

You know that faith in Christ, John 14:14, ask me anything in my name.

It's real.

God doesn't lie.

You just have to believe that no matter what, don't say anything negative against it.

So what you have to do is work each day like it's your last day on earth, giving God the glory.

And you never speak the negative.

So doesn't matter I was rejected by nine agents, the first pilot of "What's Happening!!"

did not make it, all the haters, all that.

I would go to my little hotel room, cry myself to sleep.

I mean, I would cry rivers of tears.

And so don't let the smile fool you, I cried rivers of tears, but in the end, cause I never said, "Lord, I believe you.

But I know I'm going crazy here because how much can my heart take of the rejection?"

But if you hang in there.

So that's what the book is telling people.

Put your faith in Christ, John 14:14, ask anything in my name.

It will work.

You will fail God, He will never fail you.

- What advice do you have for young people right now, who want to make it in acting, sports, anything?

What advice would you give them?

- Again, I think for me, it's you got to have that faith.

You gotta have that faith, never say anything negative.

Once you start deciding, now get the skills, go whatever school, whatever thing you got to do and do more than your competition or the others would.

I would read a script, my part, 50 to 100 times, just find new things that might, undercurrents, that I don't know.

And come up with something crazy.

Cause I think you want to bring it more than what the author has there.

You want to make it where he can't even believe that he wrote that.

That you make it so exciting.

So I think it work like you life depends on it.

Faith, but work like your life depends on it.

And remember your feelings are traitors to your soul.

You won't feel like it.

You're going to be tired.

All that negative stuff.

You got to ignore that and get your butt out of that bed, get in that shower every day, every day, relentless every day.

And God, you got me, Lord, I don't feel like it.

I got doubt, Lord.

Still, I'm gonna keep going.

I believe in you Lord.

And it will happen.

- In about one minute, what are you up to these days?

- I have a film, it's called Playhouse.

It's on The Wynn Network.

I have a movie, The Gods on Amazon.

I have Two Wolves on tuBee.

And then I'm doing another film right now, and I can't think of the title of it.

But I'm doing another film, I'm learning lines for that right now.

And I like to make this forage of it, just gospel play, a gospel musical.

So I pray help me with that, so I can come back and talk about that.

- [Jeff] I'd love to have you back.

- Do a cameo.

You do a cameo.

- [Jeff] There you go.

It's a pleasure my friend.

- My pleasure.

- Ernest Lee Thomas, you know him from 70s sitcom television and he's also got a book it's called "From Raj To Riches."

And of course he played Raj on the 70s sitcom, "What's Happening!!"

Of course, other television shows and movies and all that.

And nice enough to spend some time with us today.

Thanks a lot.

All the best to you.

- Thank you.

Thank you so much, Jeff.

- By the way, you can see this show and many more of our Conversations online at wsr.org/conversations as well as on YouTube.

I'm Jeff Weeks.

I hope you enjoyed the broadcast.

Thank you so very much for watching.

Take wonderful care of yourself and we'll see you soon.

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